I've had some difficulty pointing out differences to people who fail to see them, but couple us all together and label us Christians. I'm going to give some statements about what the Bible says and hopefully you will come to the conclusion about true Christianity.

James 2:8 ¶If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: Love your Christian brother. Thats not hard, yet people struggle with it everyday. Ever walked into a Church and all you felt was judging eyes? Yeah, really consider what true Christianity is.

John 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. How do we shape our lives into a loving relationship with God and overcome sin? Its by abiding in Christ. It by seeking out Jesus in all matters, instead of your own logic. What does it say about those who do not abide in Jesus Christ? John 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. Ever heard the term, "My way or the highway?" Yeah. This should stand clear to those who truly practice Christianity. If you don't abide in Christ, but seek after your own confidence, you will not overcome the world or sin. Ever seen someone proclaim Jesus at Church then catch the very same man cheating on his wife? Yeah, there are those too.

To these it is written: Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. It is also clarified in 2 Timothy 3:1 ¶This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Now here is the part that gets to most people: "From such turn away." Some would call this divisiveness. However, we all know what happens if you hang out with bad company too long, you pick up their habits. That is why they rid themselves of such people. Yet many wouldn't. As loving as it may seem, it doesn't support us in God's perspective. Should we be accepting and merciful? Yes. But we should not expose ourselves to corruption, but should hold our ground strongly. Ever seen a Christian use the Lord's name in vain? I have.

Ever heard someone tell you that you are going to hell if you don't accept Jesus? I've heard people say it. It angers the listeners to hear such hypocrisy. For none of us are perfect, who are we to judge wither a man goes? Is not the salvation to be judged by God alone? Know this that there are some who will twist the doctrine to fit their needs, whichever they may be. For example: Ever heard the KKK claim that the Bible supports enslaving black people? These firmly believe that they are doing right by their practices and beliefs. The bible proves otherwise. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. It is also written of them: John 16:2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.
This is actually in reference to the Jewish authorities and people. Jesus was referring to those who claimed that they knew God, but really didn't. There are so called 'Christians' out there like that too. Ever ran into them? Ever ran into a Church who boasted of its deeds but turned away a sinner? Ever seen a Church keep so much to itself that no one really knows each other? Ever seen a Christian get better benefits because his parents were rich? It happens all the time people.

So before anyone comes and considers the practices of the Church that were violent and immoral, consider first what the Bible, even our Lord's Word, has to say about it first.

God bless

i think this shows how "true christians" pick and choose what they want form the bible.

Blue right off the top its telling you to love your 'Christian brothers" What about all other faiths and NB's athiests agnostics etc etc.....

I find that to be advocating intolerance and discrimination....

secondly a threat either do as I tell you or you aren't worthy of " love" blue this isn't a loving philosophy.....

third its discouraging one to focus on a self esteem and value as a human, that will only lead to trouble , if one can't place esteem on themselves they can't on anyone else...I wonder why the bible would discourage this call you a bad person...I'm feeling a deception here blue.....

*Sigh*

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Bible, but I will let them have their faith and let them live the way they will. I would personally think that if the Bible was the true word of God, it has been severely mis-interpreted.

But then again, since I think in such a way, I will be soon cast into fire!!

Yeah i really am not a "true" Christian but i try my best...I believe that i am a hypocrite to my faith but its extremely hard infact- impossible to be a "true Christian"...How can one not judge someone? Even if our voices arent saying things- our minds still are.
Thats the whole point of forgivness, we screw up- others screw up but the key to it all is to forgive and more importantly dont recommit an act that had hurt someone.
I dont think a "true Christian" even exits- the only "true Christian" was Jesus in my opinion...So a Christians best bet is to emulate Jesus as much as they could.

The Key is forgivness- theres no point in attempting to be perfect you never will be.
Admit to your mistakes, apologise for it and move on in a more positive light.

i think this shows how "true christians" pick and choose what they want form the bible.

Aww come on man, give the guy a break! That was just a cheap shot and you know it. Let's not be prejudice against people of other faiths.

Blue right off the top its telling you to love your 'Christian brothers" What about all other faiths and NB's athiests agnostics etc etc.....

Of COURSE were are supposed to love them! I mean, as if we are winning any friends by pretending were better than everyone else. That's the thing: way too many of us christians think that because of our faith, were are "better" somehow than people who do not share our faith. That's retarded. I'm a Christian, and I sin all the time. I mean, I try not too, but I'll never, ever be perfect. I mean, everyone out there tries to be a good person, don't they? That doesn't make them better than anyone else. Infact, in the Bible, it says there is actually something called a "religious spirit", which refers to the mentality of christians thinking they are better in some way than non christians. In case you are wondering, it completely condemns having this "spirit", which in essense, is Pride. Pride is also the original sin, the sin Lucifer commited before the fall of the angels. So you can imagine God would hate it.

I find that to be advocating intolerance and discrimination....

No. But unfortunately, the bad apples spoil the bunch. You know, I'm a Christian, and I have a bunch of gay friends in Vancouver. Some guys and girls. But don't christians HATE homosexuals, and vice verca? Yeah, unfortunately, that does happen alot. But it shouldn't. My gay friends know that I am a Christain, and they know what my beliefs are. But we still get along with each other fine. Why? Becasue I am not judging them for what they do, or the choices THEY make, they in turn do not judge me. Obviously, there are some topics of conversation we both avoid, merely out of respect for one another.

Crazy eh?

secondly a threat either do as I tell you or you aren't worthy of " love" blue this isn't a loving philosophy.....

Ah, but you are just looking at the surface. How can you expect to write a report or War and Peace if you only read one page?

I'm not telling you that you have to go out and become a Biblical scholar, but trust me, the Bible is a very big, very old, and very stange book, and alot of it can't be understood unless you really WANT to understand it, and spend the time studying it. WHich is pretty much the same for anything.

I'm sure aquatus1 thought many of my areguments against evolution were quite silly, because I didn't have the level of understanding about it that he does.

third its discouraging one to focus on a self esteem and value as a human, that will only lead to trouble , if one can't place esteem on themselves they can't on anyone else...I wonder why the bible would discourage this call you a bad person...I'm feeling a deception here blue.....

Again, there has been an error in communication. God wants us to like ourselves. He wants us to live and be prosperous, and suceed. You are absolutely right: If you don't love yourself, you can't very well love anyone else. Infact, the Bible actually clears this up when Jesus tells us to "love your neighbor as yourself". Indirectly, that tells us to love ourselves. I mean, if you don't love yourself, and you decided to love your neighbor as if it were yourself, you'll treat your neighbor like crap, and all sorts of societal problems will occur.

God is trying to teach us all about love, and it starts with lovong ourselves.

You know, alot of people think the Bible is a book of rules and guidelines to keep you from doing certain things that come naturally to humans. I don't think of it that way at all. I think of the Bible as a users manual for my life. It tells me the best way to get as much possible pleasure and satisfaction out of life, wwith out endangering my health, my social life, or the health and social lifes of other people.

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Bible, but I will let them have their faith and let them live the way they will. I would personally think that if the Bible was the true word of God, it has been severely mis-interpreted.

It saddens ME when I am treated like some peeon, some lower level human, just because of how live my life. Are you really so enlightened that you have mastered living to the point where you need no outside guidance? Where you understand everything that needs to be understood?

I have a serious question for you. Have you, our would you ever use the following sentences:

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Qabala.

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Qoran.

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Talmud.

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to The Analects.

It saddens me to see how hardcore people can be to the Adi Granth.



If not, then why single out christianity? We're not perfect, but don't we deserve equal treatment and respect as the other religions? I don't know if you have evr experienced any sort of prejudice in your life, but let me tell you, it doesn't feel very good when people treat you differently because of your beliefs. It doesn't feel very good at all.

But then again, since I think in such a way, I will be soon cast into fire!!


I'm not saying that. Infact, I have no idea whatsoever where you will go after you die. I believe that there is a heaven and hell. I believe if I keep God's laws, my spirit will reside in eternity with him, and if I don't, it will not.

But if I were to say that, "You are going to hell", I would have absolutely no idea of what I am talking about.

I mean, I would have no control of such an afterlife. I wouldn't be the one who gives the thumbs up or thumbs down after people die. I believe that is GOD's job. And I think God will get pretty pissed off if I go around "judging people" when it isn't my place to do so.

I honestly and truely have no idea what will happen to you after you die. But I like to think I have some idea I know what will happen to ME after I die. Might I be wrong? WHo knows. I believe that I am not. But if I am, is it really such a big deal?

Lets say there is no heaven or hell, and I live my entire life as a Christian. Did I waste my life? No way! I was the one to decided what to believe. I was the one who decided I enjoyed the lifestyle. And I was the one who decided I would use the Bible to teach me about morals. I could have changed my belief at any time, but I didn't. So if I die, and there is no heaven, and I was wrong all along, who cares? The way I see it, if I am right, and there IS a heaven, and I get there, then that'd be just great!

In closing, would have to agree with ramster83. Christianity has so many denominations and services and buildings and sermons, there can never be what is called a "true Christian." Sure, some poeple are a little nicer than others, but we all make mistakes. The key is admitting to them, and asking for forgiveness when nessecary.

Which in my case, is alot.

I guess I worded myself wrongly when I stated that I would let them have their faith. What I was implying is that I respect your choice to believe what you will and do not discriminate against you because of it. What someone believes or what religion they follow does not in anyway whatsoever decide on how I would interact with or treat the person. Again I did not mean it to come across as it apparently did.

I was raised and attended the Mormon religion from birth to age 18. I graduated from Seminary which is the Mormon's 4 year High School level classes that can be taken as one of your classes during High School. I am fully aware of the Christian's point of view of the Bible. I thought I had a fully developed testimony of my faith but as an open-minded person that I am, I often questioned things. I researched all perspectives and views around the world, as I still do today, and came to the conclusion that there was much more to life then just having faith. And again this is my personal opinion based on my own research.

And YES, I would say the same for the rest of the religious books you mentioned. Of course that is again because I don't believe in living life solely on faith alone. I see all of us, the Unvierse, you, me, and even the guy at the desk across from me that is picking his nose as One. And literally at the atomic level we all ARE one. Do I believe in a higher power? Yes. Call it God, call it what you will. I believe God/The Eternal Oneness/Universal Mind is experiencing himself/itself through us. We are an expression of the whole.

Can we see this or experience it for ourselves? Yes. I believe that the way we experience the world today is the way we were taught to percieve it. It is how we create ourselves to experience it both individually and collectively. I believe there are things that we do not see that actually do exist because we were never taught to see them or we have never looked to see them. I think all the answers to everything reside within each of us individually. And this is the main point that makes me conclude that the Bible, if it is true, was mis-interpreted for the benefit of the few. Jesus always said that everything could be found through him or I AM. So who is to say that he was not trying to teach us that we should be like him and look within our self for the answer?

As far as heaven and hell goes, this only exists in the mind as a creation of how you view your life on Earth today/now. I feel if we are all One, when we die we are still a part of that Oneness yet exist in a different way, we don't go to one place or another. If any judgement goes on whatsoever, it is a judgement of one's self.

Again and again I will say that this is MY opinion. I truly do respect you for your beliefs and did not mean to come across otherwise. If one is able to love themselves in my view of life, then you are loving the whole.

So you say I'm unfair and that I judge? Every time I list something in the Bible, I get judged for it? The Bible explained itself. And no, it wasn't emphasizing that one should 'reject' someone or discriminate if he doesn't follow the commands of the Lord. I was emphasizing the willful ignoring of the commands with out a pinch of effort to abide in Christ. If you fit in this category, then don't gripe at me and call me heartless. Its not my words that I listed it was the Bible's.

Here's another verse for the 'logical' ones: Matthew 13:24 ¶Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Matthew 13:36 Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field.
37 He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Just because someone claims to be Christian, it doesn't mean they follow Christ's teachings. Have ya'll been brainwashed into thinking Christian is a term for anyone who professes Jesus? Yet none of you know what it truly means. You can sit and judge all you want, but the foundation of Christian teachings is correct. The Lord said what it is, and it doesn't matter if you disagree. Get pissed, throw a riot. I don't care. The Lord's Word stands supreme over any other.

If you wonder who enter the kingdom of heaven, let this help you: Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches

no, what it shows is how much the Bible is ignored.

Insight and Bluefinger well put solid Christian apologetics. In a nutshell you both summed it up “Christians are not perfect just forgiven and getting on with our lives”
If we are sometimes are over zealous it is because we have found immense satisfaction in our decision to except Christ into our lives it is only because we desire to share our joy with others and not for personal rewards.
All The Best Irish

Also, whereas one may be labeled by the world, he is not neccessarily likewise labeled by God. God's opinion matters more. Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Blue,

Just keep in mind that the bible is a concotion put forth by various roman emperors. Quoting biblical verses as truth verbatim, wont get you anywhere. The bible does say good things, its not all bad..... but its not all good either. Just take God in the OT, killing innocent children for example. All the wratful things God does, negate all the good things in the NT that Jesus put forth. The bible really is a mix of contradtictions.

Like venom said, you need to remember that the current Bible is just the agreed upon scriptures by several important Bishops that participated in a conference to decide on doctrine in the early 4th century CE. There were many other doctrines and scriptures floating around before then, and that's just in the literalist Christian camp; there were the Gnostics (who believed the Resurrection story conveyed certain kinds of higher wisdom, and was an allegory), the Arians (who believed that Christ was not divine), and other groups.

Even amongst the New Testament, the great question is, what do you interpret as representing "True Christianity"? Is it only the doctrines ascribed to Christ, or does it include his followers? If so, then which followers: just the Apostles, or the various missionaries (like Paul) who never even met Christ while alive included as well?

It's a question that has started wars and plagued theologians for centuries.

Blue

Everyone has a different view on what a Christian is, look at all the dominations.

When my church turned its back on me I simply used their own words, "once saved always saved."

Thats why I have gotten to a point in my life where I find religion and definition of self secondary to love.
Religion is a state of mind, walking a path in this life is a state of being. We need to bare our own crosses...thats the point. Just my thoughts.

Well I hope that you don't pick up any "bad habits" here. Who knows what may happen if you are exposed to other patterns of thought or worship..................



"Thats why they call me BAAAAAD Company, and I won't deny it....."

there can be no true christianity because the source ie {the bible} is tainted by men motivated by greed and lust for power and dominion over the followers of it's doctrination.

Not necessarily. Even if it were a tainted document (I think we have enough source documentation to discount that possibility, but other's will disagree. That's cool), that would only make the job of finding the "true Christian" harder. It would not necessarily preclude the existence of such a person.

Right?

i agree that there are true christian people who believe that jesus taught love, forgiveness,and tolernce, but the bible was edited by man and thus is inherently flawed

how do you know?

its like trying to convince a chicken not to bob its head. Since their is no real proof that the Bible was tampered, I think they take their opinion on faith that the Bible was tampered with, just as we take our opinion on faith that the Bible wasn't tampered with. But then again, we don't go looking for just the bad things.

Blue...are you advocating the "royal law according to the scripture".....in the book of James?

The Royal law is not the Ten Commandments:

1) A simple reading of the passage will show that the "Royal law" is not one of the ten commandments, but a commandment from what Adventists call the "ceremonial law" (in the book, not on stone).
2) Further, James is comparing the abolished Old Testament law (Royal law) with the New Law: The law of liberty! He is saying, "under the Old Testament law, (now abolished) we understood that we must keep every point... so to with the new Testament law".


You would do well to read this RELIGIOUS web site: Source

the bibe w put together by people who thought they knew what they were doing

the n.t. authors didn't know any hebrew, which explains a lot.

How do you know there are?

if only the library of alexandrea were still standing we might have more to go on as far as how acurate the modern bible is. so much was lost to history when it was destroyed.

Blue posted: "Since their is no real proof that the Bible was tampered, I think they take their opinion on faith that the Bible was tampered with, just as we take our opinion on faith that the Bible wasn't tampered with. But then again, we don't go looking for just the bad things."

- It is beyond fact that the Bible has been manipulated exponentially, it's common knowledge in academia, and it's common knowledge to those who seek neither good nor bad but only truths.

- What is wrong with accepting the Bible for what it actually is today?--a compilation of Oral Tradition narratives transcribed by several dozen different authors, altered by several dozen different editors, over the course of 2000 or so years.

" What is wrong with accepting the Bible for what it actually is today?--a compilation of Oral Tradition narratives transcribed by several dozen different authors, altered by several dozen different editors, over the course of 2000 or so years."

you took the words right out of my mouth mk

Blue posted: "Since their is no real proof that the Bible was tampered, I think they take their opinion on faith that the Bible was tampered with, just as we take our opinion on faith that the Bible wasn't tampered with. But then again, we don't go looking for just the bad things."

- It is beyond fact that the Bible has been manipulated exponentially, it's common knowledge in academia, and it's common knowledge to those who seek neither good nor bad but only truths.

For one, your words betray you. "beyond fact" refers to an act of mass propoganda in my circles. But that's for another discussion.

I seek the Bible, and am a believer in God and His son Jesus. And yes, I , and many of my Christian friends are very aware of man's manipulation of the Biblical texts over the years.

We study the cultures who have manipulated it for their political agendas (England and Rome to name a few. Don't get me started on the Vatican...). We study the so called "left out" books of the Bible, such as the apochrypha and the book of Enoch, looking for the truth. We have Bibles in virtually every translation you can get. We even have Bibles that have multiple translations per page so we can make comparisans.

We study the dead sea scrolls in depth.

Do you really think Christians are Oblivious to the manipulation of the scritpures, and that non-christians are the authority on the validity of the Bible?

Give us a little bit of credit here. Do you think all of our faith is that blind? Do you think that we trust man with the power over the scriptures that much?

To do so would be both ignorant, and foolish.

And I dare you to confront a rabbinical preist and and inform him his lineage of scribes have made errors and additions in their copies of the old testament from ancient times. You don't seem to understand the discipline of what a scribe is.

One of the best credits to the Bible's validity is the dead sea scroll which contain the book of Isiah. The scroll's version of the text is virtually identical to the modern hebrews texts of the old testament. You can look that one up yourself.

I fond it amazing that non-belivers has such confidence that the Christian knowledge has been tampered with, but place absolute trust that their own sources of knowledge and information have remain utterly pure.

For a silly example, the widely circulated textbook which stated the moon landing occures in 1971. Obviously a mistake, but one that evaded the eyes of boards designed to catch such mistakes.

If that level of mistake can be found, logic dictates that manipulation from the source is a very probable possibility. For what end you ask? WHo knows. I'm merely pointing out that no source of information can be taklen in without questioning, and that any growth in society and humans is because of "BELIEF" in information.

Not many of us hasd the time, energy, or patience to see if teh scientiffic journals, ANMD the scriptures, remain accurate.

It goes both ways.


But don't patronize the modern believer as to being oblivious of attempted and succesful manipulation of scripture.

How do you know that for fact Mr. everything has to be fact. You win the idiot award!

Here you go sherri... iam a christian i love everyone except the people who know everyone and everything...remember most of the people who think they know it all annoy the people who do...oh yea stop staring at your belly button

i never said nor implied that i know everything, i only say what makes sense to me. your insulting remark just goes to show how intollerant your beliefs are, and i am sad for you that you have to resort to insulting people to get your point across. the history of christianity is filled with biggotry, hatred, racism, fear mongering, and many other contradictions to the teachings of the bible

Gwny wisdom is in the next question not in the 'Right ' man made construct... One who knows 'all' in essence cuts himself off from any further growth..... Just my 2 cents......

"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death."
George Carlin

though Paul was a Hebrew of the Tribe of Benjamin and was a Pharisees. I guess that meant that he didn't know Hebrew. Yeah, Niether did half of the NT authors who were Hebrew as well.

Yeah, my wife gets hot headed. Like her, I get fed up too though. The message is clear, the words are true, and yet many ignore it. I used the Bible (the teachings) to support my post and even you disagree with my what I'm saying. How do you expect to get respect if you continuously ignore other people's efforts? The point I made was clear and yet I get accused of intolerance when stating what the Bible says. I don't mean to be rash, but I think that you deserve a kind of reaction like that. If you refuse to listen to anyone when they are being civil, perhaps a bit of amplitude may get your attention. Your points are taken and considered, as are the points of all NB's. But this isn't about the validity of the Bible, nor is it about who wrote it. Its about how the Bible teaches that those who abide in Christ and seek to follow his commands are will enter God's kingdom. Calling yourself a Christian and going to Church doesn't make you a Christian in God's eyes and truth. Its like if Moussoui the terrorist claimed to be American. An American can't call himself an American if he is working against the American government and killing innocent American's in the process. That's so unAmerican that he doesn't deserve to be called an American. Its the same concept with Christians. Those who support the teachings of Christ, follow His commands, and abide in Him with all aspects of their lives are actual Christians. I don't how much more clear I can make it. Look past all your agendas and see the Bible for what it is saying instead of what you want it to say. If you think that Gwyny was bad, how are you going to stand when Jesus comes to judge. I'm not justifying Gwyny's comments, I'm just saying, that that is nothing. Gwyny doesn't like it when people ignore the clear truth. The truth may not be the Bible, but what it is saying is true, and that is what I was bringing out into the open. Forget the History, i'm not talking about that. Forget the bloodshed committed by wicked men of the Roman Catholic Church and even some Protestant movements. Forget all agenda's you may have with the Bible and then go back and read the first post of this thread again. See what the Bible is saying. Please.

i only voice my opinions based on my experience and evedence i have seen. i don't insult other people for thier beliefs or lack therof i only question what i find to be incosistant with beliefs of people versus thier actions

by the way i didn't accuse you of being intolerant , i was refering to historical actions, i do not question your intentions as a christian, i may not share your belief in god but i do find many of the bibles teachings to be a good source of moral lessons,but then again the best teacher is experience.

"let he who is free of sin cast the first stone"
"judge ye not lest ye be judged"

just a couple of bible quotes i agree with

then you can provide examples of where a biblical text that effects doctrine has been changed? preferably one that has made it past the text critics and into modern bibles.

maybe, but probably not much. as far as the NT is concerned, the alexandrian witness is still rather strong, even without what may or may not have been in the library. our understanding of the biblical text is still improving. one never knows what can be found in the trash of old monestaries.

same challenge for you as vlad. provide examples of where a biblical text that effects doctrine has been changed. preferably one that has made it past the text critics and into modern bibles.
and whats wrong with oral tradition? please leave behind all anachronisms you may have aquired due to widespread literacy killing memory in the last couple of centuries before you answer that.

That's understandable. But can we agree that that is the exact topic of the thread: People who call themselves Christians but don't follow Christ aren't really Christians? This topic isn't about people's beliefs or the petty matters that cause some to question God. This is a message sent out to many Christians who lay in wait by preying so called Christians who do not love God's truth, but follow after their own flesh and desires. That is the topic of this thread and the Bible says it clear as daylight. If you want a better emphasis on this, I will be starting another thread called 'Did You Know?'

Forgive me if I made that appear to be directed at you, it was merely emphasized to the general crowd of critics (curiosity among the most) that accuse me on this topic of being intolerant of even (what he calls my 'brothers.') other Christians that do not follow Jesus. (Such as Roman Catholic teachings supports to Catholics). This will be emphasized in my newer thread, "Did You Know?"

Blue lets see how well you know the history of the Bible.....what language was the "ORIGINAL NEW TESTAMENT" written in?

Greek, i know. That's because they dealt with mainly a Greek crowd.

and Greek was a widely understood trade language.

We've been over this dozens of times. the n.t. was not written by paul, matthew or luke. the authors, the real ones, were a bunch of bishops appointed by emperors theodosius and constantine, 3-400 years later. if they were working from the tanach and not the septuagint, they would know what almah meant, and it isn't virgin. my theory is, that god allowed this to happen, to warn the jews not to believe in the n.t. You knew what I meant. even the titles of the gospels were added much later. there are hundreds of variant textual variations in the nt, but we have hebrew texts from two thousand years ago that are virtually identical to copies of the tanach in america, japan or brazil. The only true christian, in other words, a true follower of what jesus himself taught, per what we have of his teachings, not "paul", would be the remaining practicing Jews, so few in number due to 1600 years of repeated massacres by the supposed followers of Jesus. He taught that the law was toi be followed. with few exceptions, the xians disregard the torah laws.

How do you know? That's like assuming that John Hancock wasn't the first to sign the Declaration of Independence. Its like saying that someone forged his name because it sounds logical to them. If you want to convince me, I'll need proof. And the Jewish people with all that is written still fail to see that Jesus is the Messiah. The Davidic Covenant shows this. The 490 years of Daniel shows this and they still fail to believe. I think its a matter of whether you want to believe the NT as to whether you believe the people actually wrote it. OH, and just because we don't have the original manuscripts, it doesn't mean that what we have aren't authentic copies, word for word. Its a matter of what you want to believe.

shall we create an "ark" with which we can trancend time and space to the begining and see for ourselves that wich we have been told is true or not..........

the gospel of vlad chapter 1 verse one...............lol

I was once catholic blue and ALL catholics where taught to follow Jesus ...only the ignorant will claim they don't Why do you think many catholics hold the sacred heart pic of Jesus in their homes? And why do all catholic churches have the stations of the cross, that take you through the time when Jesus was being crucified??? They strongly accept Jesus...yet my mom the born again christian was brainwashed to believe that if you are a non christian you are not welcome in Gods kindom...this I believe is one of the biggest load of cobblers I have ever heard...who are they to speak for God?

The Catholics practice many traditions that are against the teaching of the Bible.

Calling the Pope 'Holy Father' is totally blasphemy. The consider him the representation of Christ in his kingdom on earth while Jesus is in heaven. Jesus never said he didn't have authority on earth from heaven. He still does, thus a vicar is not needed for our Lord.

Pictures are okay. But when they are worshipped and crosses prayed to, then it gets out of hand. Jesus is in heaven, not on the cross. That breaks the first commandment to not worship any images of any god.

Also claiming that the body of Christ is formed in the mass during Communion is like taking him from heaven and spreading him amongst the congregation. WIERD.

Praying to Mary and the saints who are all dead and asleep is WRONG. Praying for their intercession is paganistic. That breaks the first commandment to have no other gods before the LORD.

Jesus IS God. And God IS everywhere. God/Jesus can NOT be there as opposed to here for God is everywhere! Therefore God can not BE in heaven as opposed to BE'ing on earth.

Blue again you show ignorance towards another faith...is that what christians are all about huh?? I have NEVER in my life heard a catholic call the pope holy father..if they have so what

It's not just catholics that take holy communion blue gee wizz you dont know much do you?? My parter is a protestant and his church takes it too

How dare you criticize the ways in which other faith like to remember and worship our lord Jesus christ...man you are beyond ignorance

But thankfully not ALL christians think like you do...a lot of christians show respect for other beliefs..they dont have to agree with them..but they DO and I repeat DO show respect..this is something YOU LACK BLUE..and there you are sitting there thinking God must respect your thoughts on others that follow him

Praying to Mary Jesus's mother is not wrong to them Blue so why dont you get down off your pedestal..and learn to RESPECT what they do..I am not saying agree with it...but Blue if your faith told you it was RIGHT to pra to Jesus's mother and show respect to the lady that God himself chose to give birth to his son Jesus christ...you would fully understand

Why is it that the only ignorant comments come from people like you blue...funny the NB's never sink to that level nor do other people from other faith that post here hmmmmmm makes ya think

One more thing...The Catholic religion play a big part in christianity like it or not