The image of the crucifixion, one of the most powerful emblems of Christianity, may be quite erroneous, according to a study which says there is no evidence to prove Jesus was crucified in this manner. Around the world, in churches, on the walls of Christian homes, on crucifixes worn as pendants, in innumerable books, paintings and movies, Jesus Christ is seen nailed to the cross by his hands and feet, with his head upwards and arms outstretched. But a paper published by Britain's prestigious Royal Society of Medicine (RSM) says this image has never been substantiated in fact. Christ could have been crucified in any one of many ways, all of which would have affected the causes of his death, it says. "The evidence available demonstrates that people were crucified in different postures and affixed to crosses using a variety of means," said one of the authors, Piers Mitchell of Imperial College London. "Victims were not necessarily positioned head up and nailed through the feet from front to back, as is the imagery in Christian churches."

The authors do not express any doubt on the act of Jesus' crucifixion itself. But they note that the few eyewitness descriptions available today of crucifixions in the 1st century AD show the Romans had a broad and cruel imagination. Their crucifixion methods probably evolved over time and depended on the social status of the victim and on the crime he allegedly committed, says the paper in April's issue of the RSM journal. The cross could be erected "in any one of a range of orientations", with the victim sometimes head-up, sometimes head-down or in different postures.

View: Full Article | Source: Physorg.com

Hmm.....interesting......

"If crucified head-up, the victim's weight may also have been supported on a small seat. This was believed to prolong the time it took a man to die," says the study, co-authored by Matthew Masien, also of Imperial College London's medicine faculty.



Nor is there any detailed account of the method of Jesus' crucifixion in the four Gospels of the Bible (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) which are believed to be near contemporary accounts of the life of Christ.

And only one piece of archaeological evidence has ever been found about a crucifixion, mainly because crucified people were not formally buried but left on a rubbish dump to be eaten by wild dogs and hyenas, say Masien and Mitchell.

why bother, it's just some guy...

Some guy that millions of people believe to be a direct descendant of gods sperm!

LOL

Anyway, it just goes to show how stupidly assuming religion really is... Spirituality is the only INTELLIGENT way to worship some higher power.

How old are you?

These people who were crucified could have been a family member down your genetic line. Who knows some could have been falsely crucified. People still are falsely jailed in today's society. we need to learn some compassion.

If you were being crucified for doin' the right thing. Would you want someone to help you down? Or be forgotten on the cross? Just think about it

21

so?
I'm just showing my incomprehension for those people, who are weak enough to accept one of the greatest lie in the history of mankind - religion, although it is 21st century...

Religion may hold the greatest truth wrapped around the greatest lie and you would be none the wiser.

So why exactly do u have to worship "some higher powers" ?
judging from ur profile info u are familiar to scientific point of view speaking of the universe. So why this spiritual stuff? and what is this grate truth that religion holds?

You do know even Einstein believed in an God of some kind. If you don't accept the bible. That's fine.



In the future as time progresses, some people might think I did not exist and forget about me. I hold no grudge against that. I know that some of us are all misguided.

You sound like you clutch the science book in your hand just as religious extremist clutch their bible in their hands.

Rather than being so closed minded about religion open your eyes to the deeper meaning of the story behind jesus. Whether or not you believe he existed.
-----------

However I should add this:

what a nifty concept..jesus as the result of god's sperm...oh, the crucifixion thing, was nifty as well.

Hmmm. I just knew that he was probably nailed through his wrists as opposed to his hands, because they were stronger?

Always look on the bright side of life.

SOME GUY. SOME GUY. I CAN'T BELIEVE YOU THINK JESUS WAS JUST SOME GUY. HE WAS NOT JUST SOME GUY. HE WAS THE SON OF GOD. HE WAS VERY SPECIAL. HE WAS UNIQUE. HE WAS DIFFERENT FROM EVERYBODY ELSE BACK THAN. HE WAS DIFFERENT IN A GOOD WAY. SOME GUY. SOME GUY. SOME GUY. WELL I THINK YOU SHOULD READ THE BIBLE THEN DICIDE IF HE IS OR ISN'T JUST SOME GUY.



how could God love Mary. Jesus's mother. And create Jesus. If we don't even know what God is or what God looks like. I'm just wondering how is that possible. No ofense. And please don't flame up on me. I wouldn't want you guys to have a stroke or a heart attack

God's supposed to love all of us isn't he/she? though probably not in the personal way he/she loved mary...and i do hope you meant that you wouldn't want us guys to have a stroke...

- Removed -

Have respect for other peoples religon, even though you do not believe in religon!

Um yeeeahhh dont quit your day job Dominik.

See, this is what I'm talking about.
If Jesus did speak to me you would play it off as, "Your a liar."

Damn, too much disrespect in here for me. I'm a believer in God, I better run before I get my head cut off!

Im with Zeroshadow here... i do find it interesting enough though that whenever there is a topic on god or jesus there are alot of remarks and hosility and that could only mean one thing
fear of the truth

Believing in God and accepting the Bible is two very different things.
When we speak of the creation of the universe, I do understand the fact, that it took some sort of intelligence to create all the matter and space there is, so in this aspect I do believe in God.
But what I can't accept is that bulls*** of those people, who wrote the Bible some thousand years ago with their primitive sense and understanding of the world and universe. In fact, I'm not talking just about Bible, it concerns all the religions. I hope U do know that the Bible and christian church claimed that all in the universe is rotating around the earth. And only because of man like Galileo n such we have abandoned the point of view of church. And this is only on of many examples, where we can see the dogmatic stupidity of religion.

I just can't believe how ignorant one can get...
Maybe u could also sagest me to read Lord of the Rings if I do not believe in Teh Ring Of Power!!1

Oh, u see, u are misguided. Christian God does NOT love everyone. In fact, he hate Fags! It's one of the biggest sins of all time, and we should execute all of the homosexuals right away!

The same goes for Inquisition


well isn't it funny. When someone says something about religion, he does not have respect for those who believe, but when a religious freak tells me to shut a f*** up, if i do not believe, then thats ok.
So, when u choose to believe in something, think twice and do some research in it...

Welcome Shuriken to the UM forum!




Common misconception. Albert Einstein was not religious.

A few quotes from Albert Einstein:
From a correspondence between Ensign Guy H. Raner and Albert Einstein in 1945 and 1949. Einstein responds to the accusation that he was converted by a Jesuit priest: "I have never talked to a Jesuit priest in my life. I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist." "I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from religious indoctrination received in youth."

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it." From a letter Einstein wrote in English, dated 24 March 1954

"During the youthful period of mankind's spiritual evolution, human fantasy created gods in man's own image who, by the operations of their will were supposed to determine, or at any rate influence, the phenomenal world... The idea of God in the religions taught at present is a sublimation of that old conception of the gods. Its anthropomorphic character is shown, for instance, by the fact that men appeal to the Divine Being in prayers and plead for the fulfillment of their wishes... In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vase power in the hands of priests."

"Thus I came...to a deep religiosity, which, however, reached an abrupt end at the age of 12. Through the reading of popular scientific books I soon reached a conviction that much in the stories of the Bible could not be true....Suspicion against every kind of authority grew out of this experience...an attitude which has never left me."

Is that why Christians get up set when I speak the truth from the Bible?

Fear of the truth!

I bet if LOTR was written almost 2000 years ago
you'd prolly be warshipping that too.

I would! it'd be a more funbook to read, and less "ten commandments" (and only 3 of them are laws, the other 7 are to do with gods vanity... almost reminds me of stargate...)

still, I don't beleave in any of the 'modern' religions - christianity, islam, judaism, hinduism ectect. and I would never be comfortable in a church knowing I cannot stand whats being preached. but how can the image of jesus' crucifixion be wrong if theres no proof he was alive? sure you could find evidence of a jesus, but not the bible jesus.

I do not have the need of religion so I would have to say no thank you.

Zandore I love your posts in here.
Finally happy to actually see someone with a fresh mind and lots of common sense. Which most ''ackward'' people seem to lack these days.

I always thought it was a waste of wood! Why nail a cross beam when they could have simply put him on a stake and nailed his hands above his head? They were killing thousands in the same way, you would of thought it would have been common sense. So they could make 2 stakes instead of 1 cross!

I heard a rumor that summerians believed the earth and planets were a spherical shape and that they knew about pluto? dont know how true it is but its what ive heard.

What alot of people dont get is, its not so much the message or the messenger thats wrong or ignorant. Its the people who use it for a buisness.

Did yeshu say the universe revolves around the sun, no they made that up. Did he tell people to give him money? Did he tell his disciples if a town or people dont recieve you, pressure them into converting or torture them to convert and what not?

The old testiment was made by the decendants of Abram and for the decendents of Abram. Sure its bloody but which one of you can say your ancestors history wasnt bloody. Hell america isnt even that old and weve done some pretty gruesome things (Hiroshima *cough* *cough*).

And religious people stop taking the beatings from these science folks.
If they bring up the inquisition, bring up the effects of discovering nuculear energy and developing biological weapons.
Sure you make those crazy terrorist fanatics but its them who arm em and get them over here.

I mean just cause its written doesnt mean you should preach it and just cause you can make it doesnt mean you do.


Oh and ya about the topic. Who cares why are you worshiping a dead man. Yeshu warned you about that. But like always no one listens.
And they crusified people many ways for all we know they coulda done it on a tree.

Thank you Dez.


Many people are afraid to empty their minds lest they may plunge into the Void. They do not know that their own Mind is the void. The ignorant [seekers] eschew phenomena but not thought; the wise [seekers] eschew thought but not phenomena.
Huang Po

I don't know how some of you guys can not believe in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins. All of you guys that don't believe in Jesus Christ can burn in Hell!











"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."
Romans 3:23

well not a chance in hell he was nailed by his hands it would have been the wrists and binded to keep him up there, also big BIG misconception of the imagery of the cruxfiction jesus was a jew he would have had darker skin kinda oily long dark hair and a hook jew/roman nose....

Temper temper Giz.....
Leviticus 19:18
Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.


Here is three links for you to read.
Was there a Jesus?

12 Apostles

Nazareth

I reckon God was a big fat man with a massive beard and a really deep voice.

If you watch the video for Tenacious D's F**K her softly you will see God appear @ the end and he has that looks.

I didn't get the thought off that video though, it was something that just came into my mind.

And what? This is supposed to be funny? Because I'm not laughing.......



What kind of an insult in your right mind would you consider this to be humorous?

I can't believe any of you would find this "hillarious", you know what I'm going to do, I am now going to have a long rant on other religions and their gods and so on, and then we shall see where this ends up, oooooh how fun it will be!

Let's see, to start, let us insult the Pagans, they say "your savior is not coming" but then again, they have 5-6 "saviors" that have similiar tales to that of Christ, so if that savior is not coming, then who is? The other six???? But of course, ooooh, let's put our trust in the trees! Ah, good ol' Mother Nature will guide us to the light, thus known as the sun, and she now tells us to defecate on the berries and fruits which she later gives us orders and commands to eat of the soiled fruits, what wisdom!

Next there's Buddhism, oh boy, for a guy that teaches not too be tempted nor tainted by our natural and earthly desires I find it kind of hard that he has the guts to go around eating all day to his hearts fill!

Now Hinduism, one of their laws is not to eat beef right? Well, maybe if I happen to go over seas and visit India and stop by Bangladesh, perhaps we could say in a hypothetical situation, that I was to walk into the sacred temple with golf shoes on and then stomp my feet as hard as possible on any white rodent I come across on, from there I will take a cow out of the fields onto the front of the temple, and with a small but sharply efficient axe, I should split and cut it's head off while a crowd of people should gather around in my marvel, I will then drag the cow away from the temple halls with it's lagging blood tracking a path behind me, and on the next day I shall send the cow's body parts and dismembered head on a silver platter and in a cardboard box, let us not forget I am doing this in the eyes of Vishnu, Krishna and the almighty six-armed broad, Shiva!

Oooooooh boy, look at me, I made a funny! Now, wasn't that hillarious?

actually, the jesus crucifixion itself is wrong. jesus is not being crucifix but he is somewhere in the heaven and he will return to this world. he is NOT A GOD or the god's child or whatever but he just a prophet. this is the truth that being rejected by dozens of people......
want to know more?

Hmm...that's quite interesting

I am a Non-believer but you got my curiosity.

Hmmm....
I have no idea really.

And that makes sense........how?

I disagree...he asked Thomas if he would like to put his finger into the holes in his hands and side...

Here is a bit of reading from a website I found on the subject:

First, I would like to direct your study to the book of Luke, Chapter 24, verses 36-44, where Jesus has appeared to his apostles. In verse 39 Jesus states, "See My hands, and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have." Continuing in verse 40, the bible says, "And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet." Why would Jesus direct the attention of the apostles to his hands and feet? Surely most of us recognize even our closest of intimates by their facial features, voice, and overall body structure before examining their hands and feet. I am sure the same would be true at the time that Jesus appeared to the apostles.

Source

I think the most powerful tool would be the color of his skin.

VERY nice. I guess I'll see you there...You know God can't be too happy about you going around condeming people to hell.



Firstly, may I just say that the Bible story in Luke, just as those in Matthew and John, are copied from Mark, the earliest of the written gospels. There is a huge controversy on the original ending to the resurrection story contained in Mark...thus copied to the other books. Many scholars today believe that the original Mark had no resurrection story at all.

As for why he would tell them to look at his hands, in the accounts of the appearances to Mary and two other disciples in John, none of them recognize Jesus. Obviously the physical appearance was supposedly different, either through the process of resurrection itself or the crucifixion.

Keep in mind that NONE of these books were written by Jesus' contemporaries. The earliest that the synoptics were written was 70 c.e., almost half a century after the death of Jesus. Absolutely no way to gain true historical knowledge of an event only mentioned in religious literature. Nowhere is there contemporaneous, independant mention of the crucifixion, the Appearances or even Jesus himself that is even remotely reliable.

Read this on Crucifixion

There are two pieces of written scripture that suggest an upright crucifixion in the case of Jesus.
1. Joh 19:34 But one of the men made a wound in his side with a spear, and straight away there came out blood and water.
This passage tells of the spear piercing His side it describe blood and water, the water would come from the laceration of the pericardium surrounding the over taxed heart muscle. If Jesus was hung upside down the soldier would have thrust his spear directly into the chest in order to ensure he was dead.

2. Joh 19:29 Now there was a vessel ready, full of bitter wine, and they put a sponge full of it on a stick and put it to his mouth.
Once again this suggests that Jesus was upright on the cross. Interesting enough I once thought this was a cruel act. However it has been suggested that this was actually balsamic vinegar which would have temporally relieved his thirst and also act as an analgesic balm for the lips, mouth and throat.
Irish

The Link I gave supports that.

just a little side bar they proved that the nails went threw jesus' hands because his feet were done too and this allowed for his weight to not rip threw his hand. if they didn't do his feet he would have ripped threw the nails. and thus the wrist would have been needed.

How could 'they' "prove" anything about an event that has no evidence of ever taking place outside the Bible?

Well just to say something on the topic if he was crucified upside down isn't that the like anti christ cross or something?

I'm a bit rusty on my religion stuff on this topic but well for me if he wasn't crucified this way do they have substantialk proof he wasn't?

And the question that some would ask is why would the church lie?
I won't ask that one due to other events they have said is not true but could be egf Mary Magdalin etc.

But i still think he was done in the way that is shown trought books etc.

i will continue my theory..........

jesus was actually sent by god to the sky......how?i am not a god but god is capable to do anything.so, anything occured in this world is one of the proof that shows the almightyness of god. one of the jesus followers (the one who betray him) was changed into jesus. then, the jews during that time, captured the one who they thought was jesus(the one who betray jesus) and crucifix him. jesus will be somewhere in the sky until one day he will returned and fight with antichrist.......this is not a theory but tihs is the truth that had been hidden from the mankind.........

want to know more?