Do you think that science will ever be able to explain consciousness as it applies to us? Why do we have brains that allow us to be afraid of our own deaths, to be able to love or to hate, to grieve to the point where you no longer want to live.

If science cannot explain this, then can what we call a soul be able to explain this? Or do our minds and conscious awareness of ourselves truely originate from the brain?

I would love to hear other opinions about this; whether you believe in a soul and whatever religion you identify with or if you believe that the brain truely is responsible for you, and everything about you. Your emotions, your sense of yourself, everything that makes you you.

I personally believe that each of us has a soul and that our minds are what make up our soul. Our consciousness, our thoughts, our memories and emotions, our very sense of our own being. I do not believe that evolution is solely responsible; if it was, I think that all of us would be just like everyone else and that we would act very similar. With the same impulses instead of the vast differences that make up up.

I would truely be interested in everyone's opinion.

Welcome to UM first of all.

I believe we have a spirit or soul, whatever you may call it. I believe that the consciousness is the spirit/soul. You are not just your brain. There is more to consciousness than just a physical brain sending impulses. We have the ability to go against nature, to even deny what our brains are telling us that our body wants.

Example: I was watching a movie tonight. It made me think about consciuosness as well. This one guy, was going to cheat on his wife. He and the women were obviously very sexualy aroused, but right in the middle of it, the man just couldn't do it. He made a conscious decision that he was not going through with it. Would this have happened if we were just simply a brain? Maybe, but I personaly don't think so. I'm sure every part of his body was saying "Do it", I'm sure his brain was in an aroused state ready to reproduce, but yet he didn't go through with it.


Ok, that's enough of my rambbling.

Have you ever seen the movie "What Dreams My Come" with Robin Williams and Cuba gooding Jr. I remember one scene where Robin was already dead and Cuba Gooding Jr. was walking above him one the water. He asked "what do you mean by you? Are you an arm or a leg? " and Robin replies " His brain" and Cuba says "what does that mean?" and Robin replies his brain is where there is a voice in his head, the part of him that thinks and feels, that part of him that is aware that he exists at all. Cuba says "so if you are aware that you exist then you do."

An interesting thought don't you think. Think about what this might mean about death and the afterlife. Does the part of ourselves that think, that feel, the part of us that is aware that we exist, is that the part of us that lives on past our physical deaths to whatever is beyond death? Or does everything really simply end, everything that makes us who we are, does that just end or does that go on? If it just ends, how would feel to us? Would everything simply fade? How can we be aware of ourselves and then not be?

"Thought is real, physical is the illusion. Ironic huh?"

My position is that there is no spirit or soul. These are constructs that were a result of abtract thought, which is a product of evolution.

When we die, thats it, game over.

Whatever floats your boat. I've just experienced too many things to even think about assuming there's nothing after death, lol.

we actively create our "world" zero.

it is not what you saw, or think you saw, it is what you created.

as such, there is nothing that shows "an afterlife"

but plenty that shows an active creation process.

Drawing on myths, and fables, legends, and lore,

you may well act to create a worldly explanation,

that is in line with your thoughts,

and thus, for you, your thoughts become reality,

your reality....

If everything is just abstract thought and constructs in the brain, then would we not just be like insects and other lifeforms solely dependent on instincts. Incapable of anything but basic raw thoughts.

We are more than just raw thoughts and emotions, we are aware that we exist and everything that comes with that. How can science and evolution explain that?

There is nothing that shows an afterlife to you maybe. Your comments on my experiences mean nothing because.... well... you didn't experience them.

i agree totally, no1 can say whether or not these experiences happened... also for the record i believe in something after death, not sure wat it is, whether its another life or im going to b pulled out of a machine and told that was my training to wage war against the army of killer aliens in another dimension (joke) but w/e it is, there is something

I don't believe once we die game over. I had a friend killed mid-day on his bike, as he was coming home from work. He died in the parking lot of a HoJo's restaurant during rush hour, no helmet. The old man that pulled right out in front of him, so that he hit his rear and flipped off the bike, was never charged. Because here, if you kill a biker you go home! (Course , it's not the same rule for those motorcycle cops you see everywhere! But if it's one of us regular people...)

Two days later, I was coming home from work and something told me to get the newspaper, which I never did. There on front page, just below the fold, was a picture of his bike at the scene. It took a few seconds for it to register that I was reading a friends name as the fatality in the article. Thank the powers I went home before reading the paper, because I broke like a baby realizing I would never see my buddy again, after I already had not seen him in a few months.

I'm standing in the hottest shower of my life, weeping like mad, thinking I'll go to visit my folks and feel better. All these memories of Phil running through my head, all his friends that would be devastated because he was so loved and so very very cool to know. Then as I'm standing there crying my eyes out, this hand folds the fingers from the back of my shoulder over the front on my left side, facing my shower curtain, and squeezes very gently but firm enough I could feel every finger cool to the touch on hot skin. I stopped crying instantly and all those thoughts of the loss of my friend, settled to this calm peace of mind and I knew everything was going to be OK.

I went to his grave site after the funeral and could still feel his presence there. See, he had been murdered in mid day with plans for the evening with his lady and the weekend ahead with friends. So he was interrupted by death, sort of speak, and Phil was the kind of guy that knew his friends would be devastated and if something tragic happened he would always be the first one to comfort everyone the situation would work out. So weeks later I saw his girlfriend at a club and we started to talk and cry together. And she said that after he passed she and many of their friends had such visits as mine, from Phil. We called it, "making his rounds", to see those he intended to see later, before incompetence behind the wheel cut plans and lives short.

Three months later I went back to his grave and I knew he was gone. He had made his way to where ever he was to be , but after he had visited all of us, his family included, to say goodbye.

I believe "soul" is in keeping with the philosophy of religion. Something to aspire to as higher than the flesh as our guide, and to live on after as our ego. However, what ever it is that animates us to life, lives on past the fleshly confines, I know. Because I've seen it, felt it and sensed it, all my life. Not just Phil, but because I am sensitive and he was a very strong spirit in life, I felt him in death as he comforted my tears and this soft voice amid the chaos of my mind as it recalled all things of our friendship, broke through in the moment he squeezed my shoulder and said in his voice; "It's OK." And it was.

well, IF, the griving process is quite complex.

the brain will create what is necessary to relieve the stress of the climatic moment, one way or another.

simply put, you can not trust your senses.

it is very easy to see, hear, and feel what you want to see, hear, and feel subconsciously.

Great story IM, though it was really sad. I'm sorry about your friend. I believe that our consciousness is our spirit. There are too many events such as deja vu, synchronicities, dreams, etc. to think otherwise. I believe life is much bigger than our existance in this life.

"deja vu, synchronicities, dreams"

there are simple explanations for these.

however, they just don't stimulate the imagination like the fanciful stories.

that is why these "magical, mystical" stories linger,

when understanding is possible.

Welcome to Um. I just saw that movie again last night. It makes me wonder if they took some of their creativity from near death experiences. Gret movie though, always makes me cry.

I do believe we have an awareness, perhaps our spirit that goes on and that in that awareness that we exist. "I think therefore I am." The one thing that dazzles me is thought, is it the awareness? Is it us? Is thought the thing that makes us know we exist?
I truly believe thought goes on after death, that we go on. Technically thr brain would be the object from which thought came but if our thoughts were coming from another place in the universe they might possibly be able to use the brain simply as a tool in the physical world.

Personally I believe that there is a universal consciousness and that it is experiencing and learning from itself through our consciousness simontaneously. I had an experience some years ago and it was so profound that it changed me in alot of ways. I couldn't realize at the moment it happened but afterward, later on I had to cry. In the moment everything around me was skewed and chaotic but my thoughts were of absolute clarity and than the things around me became clear. During the moment I, my thoughts began to scream out loud in my head, "I'm dying, Oh God I'm dying someone help me please." Than it happened. I saw something and felt something beyond anything I had seen or felt with my own eyes and heart. So yes, I believe that we go on, whatever "we" means. Perhaps we get what we expect, perhaps our thoughts create what we are seeing but for one's body to die and one's breath to stop and one's thoughts keep going is pretty incredible.

Very nice post. Thank you.

What are the simple explainations???

I have NO IDEA what the answer is to any of this. I'm 56 years old and have been asking questions (in my head) all my life and haven't really gotten the answers to many of them for sure. BUT I have had some strange experiences. I know of about 2 or 3 times that I woke up from sleeping...but seemed to be floating in a GRAY shapeless world. I didn't know WHAT I was or WHO or anything...just that I existed in a gray NOTHING sort of world and it SCARED me. So, I "thought" I have to put my world together ...I am a .....WOMAN....I live with ....OTHER PEOPLE....they are....2 daughters....two sons...a husband....I live in a HOUSE it looks like>>>> I am in my....bedroom....it looks like....ect, ect, and I had to search and search thru my gray emptyness to bring the images to my "mind"....It was a crazy wierd scary experience everytime it happened and I'm still not sure what it meant......??

Thank you for your insight into my personal experience.

Thing is, even simple explanations are derived from the limited consciousness that exists in this world as, self. And while people report experiences of lucid dreaming, deja vu' , NDE, future dreamings, etc... and have since recorded civilization, it is that same human consciousness that is drawing it's opinion of the experience it has, records in it's subconscious as emotionless absolute, and impacts the body/mind/conscience, for ever for having been there in that process. And as such, the explanations for what something seemingly occult is not, it is the vehicle of that mind that is levying the judgment from it's mortal finite point of view. Finite because those that claim it's all in our heads, are claiming nothing outside of the mind is in process in ESP, psychism, etc.. All the while those same persons can not fully explain in their own field(s) of research, the absolute against such phenomena.

So really, no one has any right to discount any one else's experience. It really is, as far as we know, all in our head, which for a fact we know very little about at either side of the argument.

Im reposting this, because I believe it is pertinent to this discussion. Conciousness is a tool of the soul. Conciousness continues to exist after death and likewise before birth. And even in a more expanded state! Cocniousness only narrows its spectrum of awarness in order to CREATE physical reality.

Ultimately EVERYTHING is subjective. And all subjective reality IS REAL.

Objective reality DOES NOT exist.

Conscious and sub-conscious reality's agreed upon by a certain group of entities can exist, but again this is subjective to the group of entities creating that specific reality and their underlying beliefs about reality.

Consciousness creates reality.

Consciousness creates physical reality. Physical reality does NOT create consciousness. Consciousness is the prime mover, so to speak. And consciousness is multi-dimensional.

See my more in depth-topic on the matter:

The Universe as a Hologram....Does objective reality exist???

The holographic universe hypothesis, which in my observation, is in keeping with the theory of intelligent design because something has to project the illusion of the hologram.

Lights, camera, god!

know little,
understand little,
but try to explain much,
so people fall onto tales,
to explain the constructs,
as best they can,
with paradigms,
but in doing so,
extending that one thing most human,
they become prisoners of their own creations.
The tool becomes the master,
and any freedom is never real,
it is only no longer seeing the bars.

there is no mind,
there is no soul,
abraction was a product of the development of man,
but it may not necessarily be considered the greatest asset.
there are no ghosts,
there are no gods,
there are none of these things,
other than in the constucts of the man,
who tirelessly tries to pin together some semblance of understanding.
but fails.
for man has eyes to see,
and see he does claim to,
but he is as blind as blind can be,
as he focuses on the reflections,
and not on the sources.

even in saying "holographic universe" is proof of a "god" you reveal how you are a prisoner of your own constructs.

And obviously, I am not alone here!

you are not alone Imaginary....

there are those that see the bars,
and those that don't.
but the bars are still there.

but some can manage to see through the bars,
and some can even squeeze through the bars.

and when they do,
they see something far different than any construct ever presented to the masses.

you create gods, and thus gods you see.

With all due respect, you are preaching to the choir dear.

If you believe that consciousness is part of the soul and therefore the soul and consciousness continue to exist after death, then you believe in the afterlife and consciousness as part of the soul. If you do not believe in the soul or afterlife , then regardless by what you said the afterlife and soul and consciousness exist.

Not all parts of the choir just the ones that are deaf to begin with IMFR.......

careful there!
don't rush to get to your own preconceptions to soon!

there is no afterlife, no soul, no mind. they are just very vivid illusions, very persistant shadows, but not real.

Here is a little poll that I felt might be interesting.

Up at the top.

Yes... God is all there is. All that was, and all that there ever will be.

Life = Motion = God = conciousness = infinite energy

Death in the truest sense does not exist, all there is, is life.

The universe and all its components are in constant motion. There is no stasis.

Yes, the soul and afterlife, and physical reality are all illusions. Any form of constuct is an illusion.

But always remember the illusions serve a grand purpose. And the purpose of illusion is to create experience.

We all are the writer's and directors of the grandest play, the grandest illusion.

We are writing and playing out the script simultaneously.

The relative framework gives us the tools to carry forth and create or own constructions and illusions so we may experience them.

Life and All That Is like one gigantic movie.

Where you are the star. The scriptr writer, director and actor all in one.

At both the concious and subconcios levels.

well, that sounds nice and reaffirms oneself, venom.

but the ultimate illusion is the self, the independent consciousness.

there is no individual. it is a constuct, a root constuct of abstract thought. the ultimate falsehood.

no soul, no "afterlife", no mind..... these are all entrapments of the root illusion, the self

If we can't trust our senses, then how are we suppose to know when we experience something real or not? So if I saw something that might be paranormal but it looks to be a set-up or hoax I shouldn't trust my senses and call it a hoax?

Are you asking us to ignore every paranormal experience we have just because we shouldn't trust our senses?


Can you prove that greeving will create experiences like IF's?

How do you explain yourself? All that you are, how do tell yourself that you are just an illusion in your own mind? How do you know that you are even alive if it is just an illusion in your mind?

You have a point there...

through interactions.

it isn't an illusion of the mind because there is no mind!

There is no mind? You sure you want to speak in absolutes like that? How exactly would you know for sure that there is no mind?

That makes no sense. If there is no mind, then how are you aware of the interactions?

mind is an abstraction layer on top of "self"

since there is no self, there is no mind.

thought occurs, but the root of it is not built on "I".

Our language is built around the illusion of the self.
This is why it is difficult to demonstrate in words alone how there is no mind or self.

It is a persistant illusion.
But you are not separate, individual.
"You" are defined through the interactions,
and conviently separate out a subset of the interactions
and call that "you",
but this subset can not exist on its own.

The individual is the myth.
Like most myths, it pervails because it appeals.
But non-the-less, it is not real.

Hyper maybe there is a parable to convey the larger idea you are trying to get across... Do you know of the parable and the white room by chance????

Haha, I guess it does. My intention was to point out that while in the fudamental sense ALL is one, in the pseudo sense its not. If one can see the illsions and understand the why of the illusions, then one is freed of the psychological limitations of the illusions.



Yes the concept of an 'individual' is a construct, but the construct must be maintained in order for the consturct to experience within its chosen frame of refrence.



As such is also physical reality!

Soul, mind, physical reality and the afterlife all exist, in the pseudo sense. They arent 'real' in the truest of terms, but nonethless give rise to experience which is real.

When your physical body dies, your conciousess dose not cease to exist, because your physical body never gave rise to conciousness, but conciousness gave rise to the physical body.

Conciousess CAN NOT die. Its perception though can be enhanced, it can become more aware. Ultimately there is only one conciousness. And everything is part of it.

you cease to exist. the data generated is retained, but "you" no longer are. There is not a continuance of understanding from the "personal perspective".

"You" are more like a mars rover. When the rover dies, it ceases, but the information it collected continues to exist (and the rover "exists" through that data).

At death, there is "no more you".

LOL

First of all, define 'you'. Are you talking strictly about the ego here??

From my ultimate perspective:

You are not your body. You are not your flesh.

What 'You' are is everything. And everything is conciousness. At death conciousness continues. Conciousness can not cease to be.

Conciousness as I understand it it, is composed of key features such as subjectivity, self-awareness, sentience, sapience, and the ability to perceive.

Now within the grand conciousness there are illusionary constructs of individuated conciousness. I believe myself and all other illsuionary concious constructs such as yourself to be part of this grand conciousness which is All That Is.

the "you" as you exist now in the "material world" is all that defines the "you". With death, "you" are extinguished.

you are a fleeting moment, not eternal.

it frightens some to try to even comprehend the finiteness of existance. this is an issue with "self awareness".

As I said, the data of the interactions remains after death, but that is all.

past death, "you" exist the same way legends and myths exist, in the collective knowledge.

venom your experience is created by what you look at or more correctly by which way you move in space/time contuinuim, I think maybe ( Hyper can help me here ) is you release identification with the body, with the mind , that is what death is..
Beleif doesnot create your experience after the second stage of death.. ( you will still identify with your mind meaning your experince is dictated by what is in your mind.but it to will be dropped...


..it frightens some to try to even comprehend the finiteness of existance. this is an issue with "self awareness".

Hyper can you explain what you mean by this is an issue with self awareness????

Im not quite sure what you mean by "the data of your intereactions". Do you mean the cumulative memory of all your earthly experiences? And if that is what you mean, where do these memories exist, if there is not a conciousness to hold them and acess them? Do you believe that these memories sorta hang out in space as energetic fingerprints, so to speak? And then I must ask what is the purpose that these "data of interactions" continue to exist after physical death? Or do you mean to say they only exist, if someone else chooses to remeber them or write them down, or film them?


Now do you believe conciousness ceases to exist upon death also? That you as a concious self-illusoned, self-aware seperate entity cease to be? Do you have any evidence to support your conclusion?

Another question i must ask is do you believe that conciousness is a product of the bilogical brain, or do you believe conciousness transcends and is multi-dimensional in nature, not being bound to the physical dimension?

self-awareness is limited by the perspective from one's self. Everything is seen from that perspective. It is impossible to imagine "the world" without one in it, since that imagry is from one's perspective. So we can not see the universe without us in it. This leads to the creation of imagry that grants our limitations rather than challenging them. Thus we get the "afterlives", the "reincarnations". These are all methods to allow one to cope with one's own limitations. We create explanations we can understand to comfort ourselves. In this case it also overcomes our "fear of death" by making it less of an event (and in some cases, an exhaulted event). Turn what you fear into something you cherish and stress is greatly diminished.



they exist in trace form through effects. they exist on as part of a collective consciousness of a system, for example the legend of a society.



no purpose onto themselves. purpose is something the observer creates.



yes.
the evidence, or as much evidence as there can be given the limitations of the observer, is theoretical (as much as all areas in this field are).



yes. we have discussed this before. my position is that consciousness is bound to the brain. Now this may sound as a bit of a conundrum. If it does, I will expand on how consciousness is brain bound, yet the individual is an illusion.

Generally speaking the fear of death is caused by fear of the unkown. NOT of non-existence althought that may be a possiblilty along with hell, and a boring heaven.

Your deduction that a belief in afterlife/reincarnation is a coping mechanism, can also be turned around. For indivudals in a great amount of pain/suffering/depression, they would welcome non-existence, and so many take their own lives. The belief in non-existence upon death, can be just as much a coping mechanism.



Again I ask for more evidence to support your conclusion.




This is where me and you differ in opinion. I have presented evidence to you numerous of times on how conciousness works through and possibly exists on other dimensions. Yet you always dismiss it with a wave of the hand seemingly.

Yet, you have not provided evidence that conciousness is solely and only bound to the physical biological brain.

Another question. Do you beleive physical reality to be an illusion or not?

but venom,

everything you have presented in the past is built around the same faulty pretexts. In other words, it "worls on paper", and it "sounds good" too, since it reaffirms eons of bias, but it is also founded on the same faulty basis.

I was simplifying things when I said "afterlife" is a coping mechanism. While it is, this is one simple concrete example of the extention of the illusion of self. There are other cases.

Do you believe that consciousness is a product solely of evolution, and that religion and belief in a soul and afterlife our simply figments or our minds as coping tools to not be afraid of death?

Then I ask you why the first Homo Sapians 100,000 years ago believed in the same basic ideas about there being life after this one that we have now? Ruins and excavations have revealed that humans in that age were much like the Ancient Egyptians. They buried or burned their dead with items that they believed that they would need in the next life. How do you explain them having the same ideas that we have when they were far less advanced and knowledgeable about things in this world than we are yet they somehow came to the same beliefs that we do.

Wolf Hmm that is interesting How is it we have the same ideas of our unintellegent forerunners, We have taken on their constructs and its no mystery take religion for example it hasn't added one new idea since its conception in otherwords it hasn't grown......Maybe its just me but few are investigating for themselves becasue they already have" the answers"....Wisdom lies in the next question not in the right answer.....

I agree the afterlife is an extension of the illusion of self, but let me remind you that your CURRENT physical reality also is an illusion of self. The thing is both realitys,.. this one now, and the afterlife are equally valid. And yet both are illusonary.

Unless of course you believe physical reality and the self in it or NOT illusions... I cant figure out what you believe on this matter?? Let me ask you again, is physical relaity an illusion or not?





What faulty pretexts?

Likewise the concept of "no conciousness existing past physical death" is also just 'words on paper' and also a grosely simple explanation and therefore 'sounds good' because it reafirms your own personal bias. Which need I point out has no evidence to supoort it as of yet.

I think we can both agree that other dimensions of reality do exist. Why is so hard to believe that conciousness could not exist on those other dimesnions?

There are numerous repeatable experiments, well founded that show that conciousness operates by Non-physical means at times, such as in the well know 'observer effect'. Other dimensions come into play here also.

If you can prove, or even theoretically show how conciousness is only physcially bound and can only affect things by purely physical means then I think you may be on to something. Until you show me that, the scientific evidence seems to indicate otherwise.

David Bohm a well know scientist has done substantial work on showing conciousness exists and operates outside of physical parameters. The founder of morphogenetic fields, Rupert Sheldrake also has done many experiments shwoing how 'other fields' not bound by the phsycial dimensions operate.

In order to be as objective as possible one must follow the trail of evidence. Abandoning whatever biases or opinions one might hold.

Perhaps perception is a much better word choice than illusion in regards to reality.