I believe in the power of prayer......

God devotes ALL of his time for us...so the least we can do is devote some lil time for him each day....where's the harm in it?

For those of you that don't believe in it....have either of you actually tried it before? If you have and think it's pointless....please tell me why is this??

It's much easier to spend time here on line and sit in front of the TV...but some tend to look at prayer as too much work...well it's far from it IMO
The attitude with which we as non-Christians first approached God is what released the dynamic power of salvation through Jesus Christ. It was essential when we came to God, we recognized Jesus Christ as our total redemption. Our human abilities played no part in the salvation process. We had to trust God fully.Prayer is an expression of the commitment and trust we have in God.

There are two things we must keep in mind. First, God does not expect us to change the whole world. He only wants us to do our part, to grow where he has planted us. Second, we must realize that, although we cannot change the whole world, there is much we can realistically accomplish.

People who sit and give a few quick prayers, asking God to give them a quick fix and help them with whatever is troubling them....does not work, and it doesnt for for a good reason..but they don't think of that, so what do they do?? - They give up and turn their backs on God & Prayer altogether..............IMO this is not right...there is a sure way to have your prayers answered and I think for those who don't believe should at least consider it....

When you take a lil time out to pray..you must clear your head of everything that may distract you...Meditate

Talk to God as if he was human....tell him what you want him to hear.....
Ask for help but agree to meet him half way...and prove it ...in time you will see a huge change

When you pour your heart and fully concentrate in what you are telling God, and tell him you fully trust in him...again you will see a big difference....after all I am an non christian but I strongly believe this works

Thanking him is something that needs to come straight from the heart....do this every day..its nice to show some kind of appreciation, after all don't we ALL like it when someone else shows us appreciation???

God may not answer your prayer in the way you imagined...but he works in mysterious ways and you find your prayers answered in such a way that actually makes things a lot better

I have had my prayers answered but I don't believe it was coincidental I believe it was Gods work and mine..after all I did meet him half way. I have even made promises to him and kept my word, therefore he kept his word too
BUT...When you ramble off a few prayers...you wont notice any changes, becuae you don't mean it and you haven't poured your heart into those prayers...and a lot of people make the mistake of making their prayers sound a lot like wishes..this is not right either
I used to ramble off quick prayers and moaned as to why they where never answered...untill I took up some reading on prayer - The Power Of Prayer..and saw where I was going wrong..and now it's all good


This post is not to try and convert you NB's LOL...I just would like to know if and why?

That is all

PS...Don't go shooting BM for this....or ill come a hunting for ya

BM Thats an excellent post well done...I agree you absolutely have to pour your heart, mind and soul into prayer- its more than just your words- you have to well and truely mean it...Sometimes i pray and i notice im rambling or i even start to drift off into prayer and make no sense and i just stop in between and apologise...That shows im not caring or meaning my prayer- and why'd God want to hear that? He wants to hear genuine calls for him not scammers pestering him for things that really dont matter- he'll just hang up on you.

Never have prayed, I have meditiated quite a bit.

I see the answer as follows:
we create our worlds though how we filter information
the application of "positive thought" allows us to create a positive experience
thus any type of reflection that allows a broadening of prspective is benefitial.
any type of reflection that reduces stress, and centres the self is benefitial.
I think people that pray, think they are praying to their gods,
but in reality, these gods are just constructs to provide order to "the universe",
what we really see happening in prayer is a relaxing, a releasing, and thus a resetting,
which re-invigorates the individual.

Chapter 5 - Why won't God heal amputees?

Does God answer prayers? According to believers, the answer certainly seems to be YES.

For example, at any Christian bookstore you can find hundreds of books about the power of prayer. On the Internet you can find thousands of testimonials to the many ways that God works in our lives today. Even large city newspapers and national news magazines run stories about answered prayers. God seems to be interacting with our world and answering millions of prayers on planet Earth every day.

God's power often can be quite dramatic. Take, for example, this story from Marilyn Hickey Ministries:

Prayer is a communication system we have available to fellowship with our heavenly Father and which activates His promises in our lives. No one can beat this system. It's quick. It's efficient. And it's available to you right now! Prayer reaches our heavenly Father instantly. Years ago my mother's doctors found a tumor in her brain. When I heard the news, I was out of town so I could not lay my hands on her. That night as fear swept over me, the Lord quickened Psalms 107:20 to my spirit: "He sent his word and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions." I sent God's Word long distance to my mother's brain. When she was X-rayed again by her doctors, there was no evidence that any tumor had ever existed! Hallelujah! Our prayers are swifter than any medical technique. Only born again believers who have accepted Jesus Christ as Lord can have a relationship with the Father and prayer is the communication method you must use to develop that relationship. [ref]

Stories like these can be easily found all over the Web.

How Prayer Works

In the Bible, Jesus promises many times that he will answer our prayers. For example, in Matthew 7:7 Jesus says:

Ask, and it will be given you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For every one who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. Or what man of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Ask and you will receive. What could be simpler than that?

In Matthew 17:20 Jesus reiterates that same message:

For truly, I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move; and nothing will be impossible to you.

Since a mustard seed is a tiny inanimate object about the size of a grain of salt, it is easy to imagine that the faith of a mustard seed is fairly small. So, paraphrasing, what Jesus is saying is that if you have the tiniest bit of faith, you can move mountains.

Jesus says something similar in Matthew 21:21:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer.

The message is reiterated Mark 11:24:

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

In John chapter 14, verses 12 through 14, Jesus tells all of us just how easy prayer can be:

"Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I go to the Father. Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it.

In Matthew 18:19 Jesus says it again:

Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Jesus is actually in our midst and God answers our prayers.

The miracle of Jeanna Giese

There are so many examples of the power of prayer, but one in particular deserves special consideration because it is so well documented. In December of 2004 a girl named Jeanna Giese survived a bite from a rabid bat through prayer. Hundreds of newspapers (including the Raleigh News and Observer in my home town) ran stories about the miracle of her recovery with headlines such as "Rabies girl in miracle recovery." In Raleigh, the headline was "Web weaves global prayer circle - Petitions circle the world as girl beats rare case of rabies." [Source: by Sharon Roznik, Raleigh News and Observer, December 17, 2004]

The summary of the story goes like this. Jeanna was in a church service in Wisconsin when a brown bat fell into the aisle. She picked the bat up and carried it outside. No one gave it a second thought. Because no one gave it a second thought, no one considered the possibility that the bat might be rabid, and Jeanna was not vaccinated against rabies.

A month later it was obvious that something was wrong. Soon Jeanna had a full case of rabies. No human has ever survived this disease without being vaccinated. Up until 2004, full-blown rabies had been 100% fatal.

According to the article, a global prayer circle helped Jeanna survive. Once she got sick, Jeanna's father called friends and asked them to pray for Jeanna. People around the world heard about her story through the press and by word of mouth. They prayed. They sent emails. They passed the word along. Millions of people heard about Jeanna's plight and they said prayers for her.

And the prayer circle worked. Through the power of God, Jeanna recovered. Jeanna was the first human to survive rabies without the vaccine.

Dr. Charles Rupprecht of the CDC in Atlanta called Jeanna's case a miracle. The family and everyone in Jeanna's huge, global prayer circle know that God heard their prayers and answered them.

This is amazing stuff. The dictionary defines a miracle as "An event that appears inexplicable by the laws of nature and so is held to be supernatural in origin or an act of God." [ref] So we must ask a fundamental question: Did an all-loving, all-powerful God hear the prayers from Jeanna's worldwide prayer circle and then reach down from heaven to help Jeanna? Did God actually interact with Jeanna's body, making the impossible happen and curing her case of rabies through a divine miracle?

Or did something else happen that is completely coincidental?

We can actually answer this question with a simple experiment....

A simple experiment

Billions of people believe that God answers prayers. You may have heard many stories about the power of prayer, either from friends or through the press. Jeanna's story is a great example of that process.

Therefore, here is an interesting experiment for us to try. For this experiment, we need to find a deserving person who has had both of his legs amputated. For example, find a sincere, devout veteran of the Iraqi war, or a person who was involved in a tragic automobile accident.

Now create a prayer circle like the one created for Jeanna Giese. The job of this prayer circle is simple: pray to God to restore the amputated legs of this deserving person. I do not mean to pray for a team of renowned surgeons to somehow graft the legs of a cadaver onto the soldier, nor for a team of renowned scientists to craft mechanical legs for him. Pray that God spontaneously and miraculously restores the soldier's legs overnight, in the same way that God spontaneously and miraculously cured Jeanna Giese and Marilyn Hickey's mother.

If possible, get millions of people all over the planet to join the prayer circle and pray their most fervent prayers. Get millions of people praying in unison for a single miracle for this one deserving amputee. Then stand back and watch.

What is going to happen? Jesus clearly says that if you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. He does not say it once -- he says it many times in many ways in the Bible.

And yet, even with millions of people praying, nothing will happen.

No matter how many people pray. No matter how sincere those people are. No matter how much they believe. No matter how devout and deserving the recipient. Nothing will happen. The legs will not regenerate. Prayer does not restore the severed limbs of amputees. You can electronically search through all the medical journals ever written -- there is no documented case of an amputated leg being restored spontaneously. And we know that God ignores the prayers of amputees through our own observations of the world around us. If God were answering the prayers of amputees to regenerate their lost limbs, we would be seeing amputated legs growing back every day.

Isn't that odd? The situation becomes even more peculiar when you look at who God is. According to the Standard Model of God:

• God is all-powerful. Therefore, God can do anything, and regenerating a leg is trivial.

• God is perfect, and he created the Bible, which is his perfect book. In the Bible, Jesus makes very specific statements about the power of prayer. Since Jesus is God, and God and the Bible are perfect, those statements should be true and accurate.

• God is all-knowing and all-loving. He certainly knows about the plight of the amputee, and he loves this amputee very much.

• God is ready and willing to answer your prayers no matter how big or small. All that you have to do is believe. He says it in multiple places in the Bible. Surely, with millions of people in the prayer circle, at least one of them will believe and the prayer will be answered.

• God has no reason to discriminate against amputees. If he is answering millions of other prayers like Jeanna's every day, God should be answering the prayers of amputees too.

Billions of people believe in the power of prayer and pray their own prayers. Not only do they pray, but they personally witness God answering their prayers every single day. In addition, the entire industry of inspirational literature is built around God's ability and willingness to have a personal relationship with us and answer our prayers. Any Sunday morning we can find thousands of ministers and priests preaching about God's grace, God's love, God's blessings and God's desire to hear and answer our prayers.

Nonetheless, the amputated legs are not going to regenerate.

What are we seeing here? It is not that God sometimes answers the prayers of amputees, and sometimes does not. Instead, in this situation there is a very clear line. God never answers the prayers of amputees. It would appear, to an unbiased observer, that God is singling out amputees and purposefully ignoring them.

Processing basic factual information

You can see that the amputee experiment reframes our conversation. No longer are we talking about "religion" or "faith" or "God's existence". What we are talking about here is the basic human ability to process factual information.

At the beginning of the chapter we highlighted a number of promises that Jesus makes about prayer in the Bible. Summarizing, here is what Jesus promised:

• If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

• If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

• Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

• Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

• Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

The question is simple: are Jesus' statements true or false? By looking at amputees we can see that they are false. Jesus/God never answer prayers to spontaneously restore lost limbs, despite the promises in the Bible.

That is why the question "why won't god heal amputees?" is so interesting. With this single question, we can conclusively prove something very important about Jesus and the Bible.

If you are a believer, and if this is the first time you have thought about the situation faced by amputees seriously, you have a set of stock answers running through your head right now. Let's examine the stock answers one by one.

Stock answers

Key Point
No matter how many people pray, no matter how often they pray, no matter how sincere they are, no matter how much they believe, no matter how deserving the amputee, what we know is that prayers do not inspire God to regenerate amputated legs. This happens despite what Jesus promises us in Matthew 21:21, John 14:14, Mark 11:24, etc.

Here is an explanation that you might have heard or used before:

The reason God cures thousands of cancers, infections, etc. each day but never intervenes with amputees is because it is not God's will to do that. It is not part of God's plan.

This explanation seems a little odd. Amputees really do seem to be getting the short end of God's plan if this is the case. If the Standard Model of God is correct, it seems like God should restore lost limbs. If God answers prayers as promised in the Bible, and if God is performing all of the medical miracles that we read about in inspirational literature, then God should also be restoring amputated limbs. Why would God help cancer victims (e.g. Marilyn Hickey' mother) and people bitten by rabid bats (e.g. Jeanna Giese), but discriminate against amputees like this?

Keep in mind what Jesus promised:

• If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer. [Matthew 21:21]

• If you ask anything in my name, I will do it. [John 14:14]

• Ask, and it will be given you. [Matthew 7:7]

• Nothing will be impossible to you. [Matthew 17:20]

• Believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. [Mark 11:24]

There is no indication from Jesus that amputees will be ignored when they pray for medical help.

The five quotes in the previous paragraph are all simple, straightforward statements. Doesn't "nothing will be impossible for you" mean "nothing will be impossible for you"? Jesus is God, and as an all-knowing being God knows how humans interpret sentences. If Jesus did not mean "nothing will be impossible for you," it seems like Jesus would have said something else. He also would not repeat that sentiment so many times. And Jesus is supposedly answering millions of prayers each day, so prayer-answering seems to be his intent (See Understanding the gumball machine for a more in-depth discussion).

Here is another explanation that you might have heard: "God needs to remain hidden -- restoring an amputated limb would be too obvious." We will discuss this idea in more detail in later chapters, but let's touch on it here.

Does God need to remain hidden?

That does not seem to be the case. In general, God seems to have no problem doing things that are obvious. Think about the Bible. Writing the Bible and having billions of copies published all over the world is obvious. So is parting the Red Sea. So is carving the Ten Commandments on stone tables. So is sending your son to earth and having him perform dozens of recorded miracles. And so on. It makes no sense for a God in hiding to incarnate himself, or to do these other obvious things. Why send your son to earth, and then write a book that talks all about his exploits, if you are trying to hide?

In the same way, any medical miracle that God performs today is obvious. The removal of a cancerous tumor is obvious because it is measurable. One month the tumor is visible to everyone on the X-ray, and the next month it is not. If God eliminated the tumor, then it is openly obvious to everyone who sees the X-ray. There is nothing "hidden" about removing a tumor. So, why not regenerate a leg in an equally open way? If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors in response to prayers, then why wouldn't God also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs?

Key Point
If God intervenes with cancer patients to remove cancerous tumors, then God should also intervene with amputees to regenerate lost limbs.

Another example is seen in Jeanne's rabies case discussed earlier in the chapter. Tens of millions of people are aware of the Jeanna's rabies miracle. Personally, I read about it in a big article in my morning newspaper. That is pretty obvious. What is hidden about her recovery?

Why, then, does God ignore the prayers of amputees?

Some people might say, "Everyone's life serves God in different ways. Perhaps God uses amputees to teach us something." That may be the case -- God may be trying to send a message. But, again, it seems odd that he would single out this one group of people to handle the delivery. To quote Marilyn Hickey once again:

No matter what has happened in your past, no matter what is happening in your present, seek out your heavenly Father in prayer as often as you can. Take my word for it -- He loves you and wants to answer your prayers. [ref]

In Jeremiah 29:11 the Bible says:

For I know the plans I have for you, says the Lord, plans for welfare and not for evil, to give you a future and a hope.

It does not seem to make sense that amputees would be cut off from the blessings that Jesus promises in the Bible. And it also does not mesh with all of the prayers that Jesus seems to be answering for other people.

Someone might say, "Thou shalt not test the Lord. It says so in the Bible." This is hard to swallow because every prayer is a test. Either God answers the prayer or he does not. There is no difference between praying for an amputee and praying for Jeanna Giese and her rabies.

Some people might say something like, "Jesus never says when he will answer your prayers. Maybe your prayer will be answered in the afterlife." But that seems uncomfortable. Jesus is answering millions of prayers for everyone else in the here and now. Clearly that is what he means with all his verses in the Bible. Why single out amputees for treatment in the afterlife when Marilyn and Jeanna get their prayers answered almost instantaneously?

Someone might say, "God will answer your prayers, but not immediately. You must be patient." They will point to a situation like that found in Mark 6:47-51:

And when evening came, the boat was out on the sea, and he was alone on the land. And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out; for they all saw him, and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, "Take heart, it is I; have no fear." And he got into the boat with them and the wind ceased.

A person might say, "you see, he came in the fourth watch (generally understood to be 3AM to 6AM), not in the first or second or third. You must be patient and wait for the Lord to answer your prayers." This is just as uncomfortable as the previous explanation. God does not answer the prayers of any amputee to restore lost limbs.

Finally, there is this oft-used chestnut: "There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord. People have believed in Jesus for 2,000 years, and there must be a very good reason for it." This feels like a sad point in the conversation. On one side of the conversation is a person who is defending the all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving creator of the universe. This person's position should be unassailable. Yet, if God exists, and answers prayers as described in the Bible, there is no explanation for what we see in the world around us. The Bible is silent in this case. God is silent. There is not a good, comfortable explanation for the situation faced by amputees except to say, "We cannot understand the mysteries of the Lord. We have no explanation for why God refuses to answer prayers to regenerate lost limbs."

Explaining the case of amputees

Just for a moment, I would ask you to consider the possibility of another explanation. If you believe in God this explanation will initially appear to be complete nonsense. However, it is interesting in light of the conversation we will be having in this book.

One explanation for the evidence that we see before us is this:

God exists, and God answers prayers, but for some reason God chooses to ignore the prayers of amputees. We don't have a good explanation for why God acts this way, and it does seem to contradict what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible, but clearly God has his divine reasons.

Now let's look at the situation with amputees from another point of view. This explanation is more straightforward:
God is imaginary.

Let's look at what happens when we consider this explanation and see how it stacks up.

Assume that God is imaginary. The beauty of this explanation is that it fits the facts perfectly. In the case of amputees, it is a valid way to explain the reality that we see in our world. The logic goes like this:

If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too.

The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes complete sense in light of the evidence we see in our world.

Key Point
If God is imaginary, then he does not answer any prayers. Therefore, the prayers of amputees would go unanswered too. The thing that is so appealing about this explanation is that there is no hand waving. There are no contradictions. It is completely fair. There is no paradox. This explanation makes sense in light of the evidence we see in our world.

Interestingly, this explanation also happens to cover the case of Neva Rogers in Chapter 1. And Steve Homel's subdivision in Chapter 2. And Ranika in Chapter 4. If you assume that God is imaginary, then the paradox of God evaporates in all of these cases. Why did Ranika die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Neva die? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save her. Why did Steve's house remain standing while 39 others burned to the ground? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save any of the houses (and Steve's house was a fluke). Why did 200,000 people die in the tsunami? Because there was no all-powerful, prayer-answering God to save them. And so on. It explains amputees too. The paradox of God vanishes completely.

In response to this proposal, a thoughtful person might say, "Just because God never answers the prayers of amputees, it does not mean that he does not answer other prayers. I agree with you that it is unfair to amputees, and I agree with you that it contradicts what Jesus teaches in the Bible, but God has his reasons. For some reason, it is not part of God's plan to help amputees by regenerating their lost limbs. There is no way to understand the mysteries of our Lord, but he does have his reasons and they will become clear to us when we die and go to heaven." That is one possible explanation, but words like "unfair" and "contradicts" feel, somehow, uncomfortable. They do not fit with our mental image of an all-loving and perfect God, nor with the words of Jesus in the Bible. Why would God have such a problem with amputees that he completely ignores their prayers to regenerate lost limbs, while at the same time he is answering all of these other prayers millions of times a day? When it comes to amputees, why would Jesus renege on his promises to answer prayers in the Bible?

You can see that what we have here is a paradox:

• On the one hand we have an all-knowing, all-loving God who has made very clear and specific statements in his Bible about the power of prayer. We have billions of people who believe that their prayers are being answered. We have thousands of examples of the power of prayer published in inspirational literature. We have prominent doctors at the CDC declaring that God is reaching down onto earth and performing medical miracles. We have major newspapers and magazines reporting on the power of prayer and prayer circles.

• On the other hand, we have a piece of explicit evidence that does not make any sense if God exists. No matter how many people pray, no matter how sincere they are and no matter how much they believe, God does not answer the prayers of amputees to regenerate their limbs.
There are two possible explanations for this paradox:

• Many people believe that God answers millions of prayers every day, using his love and power to bless people all over the globe, but that God ignores the prayers of amputees for a divine reason. In that case, the situation with amputees is a bit of a mystery.

• Many other people believe the opposite. They believe that God is imaginary, and therefore he cannot answer prayers. In that case, the situation with amputees makes complete sense.

The thing about amputees is that the evidence is rock solid. This is the part that makes this example so compelling.

A cascade of problems

It's not like I am revealing some hidden truth here. The funny thing about amputees is that this evidence is obvious to everyone. We have all seen that God ignores the prayers of amputees. This evidence has been plainly visible for centuries.

Amputees are not the only ones either. For example:
• If someone severs their spinal cord in an accident, that person is paralyzed for life. No amount of prayer is going to help.

• If someone is born with a congenital defect like a cleft palate, God will not repair it through prayer. Surgery is the only option.

• A genetic disease like Down Syndrome is the same way -- no amount of prayer is going to fix the problem.

It is also fairly easy to find corroborating evidence. At the global level, we see the evidence every day in many different ways. For example, we all see the millions of children who die every year from the tragic effects of poverty. Unicef puts it this way:

Every year, more than 10 million children die totally preventable deaths. Some are directly caused by illness – pneumonia, diarrhoea, measles – and others are affected by indirect causes such as conflict and HIV/AIDS. Malnutrition, lack of safe water and inadequate sanitation are contributing factors to more than half of these deaths. [ref]

Jesus is supposed to love all the little children of the world: "Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight." So we can ask this straightforward question: If children are precious to Jesus, then why is he killing 10 million of them every year with abject poverty? That's 27,000 dead kids every day -- more than 1,000 dead children each hour. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty? (We will discuss this situation in more detail in chapter 22.)

Key Point
27,000 children die every day for preventable reasons like malnutrition and unsafe drinking water. If Jesus answers prayers as he promises in the Bible, then why haven't the prayers of billions of people to end world hunger caused Jesus to solve the problem of global poverty?

We all know that holes like these exist. It is fairly easy to find them. The holes suggest that something odd is going on.

Ambiguity and coincidence

The question, "Why won't God heal amputees?" probes into an extremely interesting aspect of prayer and exposes it for observation. This aspect of prayer has to do with ambiguity and coincidence.

Imagine that you pray for something -- It does not really matter what it is. Let's imagine that you have cancer, you pray to God to cure the cancer, and the cancer actually does go away. The interesting thing to recognize is that there is ambiguity in your cure. God might have miraculously cured the disease, as many people believe. But God might also be imaginary, and the chemotherapy drugs and surgery are the things that cured your cancer. Or your body might have cured the cancer itself. The human body does have a powerful immune system, and this immune system has the ability to eliminate cancer in many cases. When your tumor dissappeared, it might be a coincidence that you happened to pray. Drugs, an immune response or a combination of the two might have been the thing the cured you.

How can we determine whether it is God or coincidence that worked the cure? One way is to eliminate the ambiguity. In a non-ambiguous situation, there is no potential for coincidence. Because there is no ambiguity, we can actually know whether God is answering the prayer or not.

That is what we are doing when we look at amputees.

When we pray to God to restore an amputated limb, there is only one way for the limb to regenerate. God must exist and God must answer prayers. What we find is that whenever we create a non-ambiguous situation like this and look at the results of prayer, prayer never works. God never answers prayers if there is no possibility of coincidence. We will approach this issue from several different angles in this book, but Chapters 6 and 7 are particularly important.

The fact that prayers are never answered when the possibility of coincidence is eliminated meshes with another fact. If we analyse God's responses to prayers using statistical tools, what we find is that there is never any statistical evidence for prayer. In other words, when we statisically compare prayer to coincidence for explaining any situation, they are identical. For example, this article points out:

One of the most scientifically rigorous studies yet, published earlier this month, found that the prayers of a distant congregation did not reduce the major complications or death rate in patients hospitalized for heart treatments. [ref]

It also says:

A review of 17 past studies of ''distant healing," published in 2003 by a British researcher, found no significant effect for prayer or other healing methods.

No scientific study has ever found any evidence that prayer works.

There are two possible conclusions to draw from these statistical studies and the situation with amputees:

1 God somehow detects every non-ambiguous situation (like amputees) and every situation where a statistical study will be done and he "refuses" to answer prayers in those situations.

2 God is imaginary and does not answer prayers at all. In every case where it appears that God "answers" a prayer, it truly is nothing more than a coincidence.

One problem with the first explanation is that it contradicts what Jesus teaches about prayer in the Bible. Jesus says that he answers payers. He never says, "don't pray to me unless the situation you are praying about is ambiguous." Another problem with the first situation is that it is possible to analyse any prayer with statistics, meaning that God cannot answer any prayer.

In other words, we reach the same conclusion: God is imaginary.

Incredibly Interesting

Whether you are religious or not, you have to admit that what we see here is incredibly interesting. Despite the fact that billions of people around the world believe in God, in this chapter we have seen a credible piece of evidence that indicates that God is imaginary.

We also have many other pieces of evidence that indicate the same thing. Let's step back and look at several of them.

First of all, we have this fact: there is no scientific evidence indicating that God exists. We all know that. For example, God has never left behind any physical evidence that shows that he is real. None of Jesus' miracles left behind any physical evidence either. God has never taken over all the TV and radio stations and broadcast a message to mankind. There is the Bible, but as we will see in Section 2 the Bible has problems of its own. And so on. So let's agree that there is no empirical evidence showing that God exists:
• If we had scientific proof of God's existence, we would talk about the "science of God" rather than "faith in God".

• If we had scientific proof of God's existence, the study of God would be a scientific endeavor rather than a theological one.

• If we had scientific proof of God's existence, all religious people would be aligning on the God that had been scientifically proven to exist.

• Etc.

Second, we have the fact that there is no statistical evidence that God answers prayers. No non-fradulent scientific study has found any evidence that prayer works. For example, if we have a prayer group pray for certain people in a hospital but not for others, the people who were prayed for don't get better any faster or live any longer. The prayers have zero statistical effect. We will discuss this in much more detail in Chapters 6 and 7.

Simply think about the world around you. First, if there were conclusive statistical evidence that God answers prayers, that would provide scientific evidence that God exists. Second, we can see that there are not two laws of probability -- one for Chistians who pray and one for everyone else. There is a single law of probability that applies equally to everyone. Prayers have zero effect in any statistical study.

Third, we have quite a bit of daily evidence that also suggests that God is imaginary. For example, there is the paradox of Neva Rogers from Chapter 1. In this case Neva prays openly to God and then gets shot in the head four times. There is the paradox of Steve Homel's house, where Steve prays and his house is saved. Unfortunately, the 39 other houses on his street are cursed and burn to the ground. That 97.5% failure rate for prayer makes it feel like the survival of Steve's house is pure coincidence rather than a miracle. We see paradoxes like that constantly, and they all point to the fact that God is imaginary.

Fourth, we have the fact that all of the gods of the past truly were imaginary. We all know with certainty that the Egyptian gods, the Roman gods and the Aztec gods were completely fictitious. Otherwise we would not have started to worship Jesus. We would be worshiping Ra or Zeus rather than Jesus if Ra or Zeus were real.

Now we can start adding pieces of new evidence showing us that God does not exist. For example, we have the case of amputees as described in this chapter. If God is real, it is apparent that there is something very odd about amputees. God is supposedly answering millions of prayers on earth every day, but he completely ignores amputated limbs and refuses to restore them. That makes no sense according to the Standard Model of God and Jesus' statements in the Bible. God's treatment of amputees is inexplicable if God exists, but makes a lot of sense if God is imaginary.

We have all of this evidence to show that God is imaginary. If we were in a court of law looking at this question, the judge would quickly rule that God is imaginary. There is no concrete evidence that God is real and lots of evidence that he is imaginary.

If you are a thoughtful, curious person, the case of amputees really makes you wonder: Is God real or is he imaginary? Let's try looking at another example and see if it sheds any light on this situation...

http://whydoesgodhateamputees.com/god5.htm

Sean

I completely agree. Tibetan monk meditation can be just as powerfull as christian prayer. Especially when you study the effects ont he biological brain. There have been numerous studies done to support this conclusion. It also dosent matter what your belief system is.

Conciouseness creates reality and prayer /mediation can be quite beneficial. One can almost equate prayer with mediation.

Very nice post.

I think NB's pray everytime they love another or help another as well. This connects them. I like to meditate, sometimes I sound off but I believe just loving others is a form of prayer, even if we aren't conscious that we are doing it. We are sending off good vibes into the universe and they don't only come back to us but affect others as well. This to me is a form of prayer.

I used to pray in that I was asking for something in times of hardship and being greatful in times of joy. over time I learned to send out love to others through my thoughts and heart and it was through this I felt connected, I saw answers. When I sent those prayers on to the wind, I started loving myself, so my prayers were answered in loving another.

Thanks everyone so far for the responces



Thanks Ramster...yes its all heart and soul IMO and always will be...but the prayers that christians/Catholics ect say are not the same ones I say...I just make my own up, it works better for me, and has gave me the full strenth to believe in God all the more than I ever did before



I was under the impression that a vast number of NB's where once part of a religion of some kind...you are one of the 1st to have never so much as gave prayer a chance...I fully respect it though and thank you for your responce and I agree that meditation is relaxing and keeps you at peace with yourself
When I pray I don't just think I am praying to God...I believe I am...although a lot of christians will say without thinking..they KNOW they are instead of believing they are


Thanks for the post Venom....When I pray I will mediate it makes it easier

Sean..umm sorry dude your post was wayyyyyy too long, it took me a while just to scroll past it lol but I know you are totally against prayer and for that I understand why


NB's are every bit as loving as any religious person and I would dare say and then some...like my friend Sheri Berri...she is one fine example of a loving person and rather thoughtful too I respect the fact she is an NB and IMO I believe that she like other NB's will still get into heaven, even though she don't believe
But Star not all NB@s will pray for you if you are dying or if something horrible is happening to you or a loved one...they will just send their condolences and best wishes and tell you they are thinking of you...I am ok with that too

When my lil girl was sick Sheri was forever wishing me the best and told me she was thinking of Becky and hoping Becky got better, so I fully appreciated that from Sheri and still to this very day even though she is well aware my lil girl is all better, Sheri is always asking about her regardless...again I fully respect this...she is what I call a true friend and I believe she is one of the most loving of ALL NB's Sheri has raised 3 great kids and believes in nothing but love for them...to me she is one in a million..and proof that she doesnt need to follow a religion or some book..hmmm kinna like me but the only difference is I follow God and prayer LOL

Star I am so glad you started loving yourself and I am glad you puth faith into prayer

This has been a Berri responce

Thanks Bec's ma I'm very similar in beleif to Hyper ( no surprise and venom and star, .....) Prayer is a form of thought control IMO and also IMO my thoughts create the journey i call life( not quite that cut and dry but without getting out there) i don't pray to a outside entity or supplicate in hopes for something, i also want to add graditude is a state of being IMO and also a useful tool, I know what i focus on will come to be (gratitide makes it happen a whole lot faster, for negative or beneficial i would say not a thought( some call prayer) has gone unanswered in the metaphorical sense. IM awareness prayer is a tool IMO ..I have no issue saying i will pray for you I'm simply saying i support what you want and its no mystery that collectively thoughts create too , meditation would be my form of prayer as hyper and the other NB's. I also have said to those that i know who are religous to pray in times of darkness its my way of reminding them to focus on the positive,thankyou you Bec's ma for asking and wanting to understand us NB's....

Many of you who have been on the site a long time remember when I was in the hospital for a month. Many of you prayed for me and I have always been grateful for that. My avatar is a gratitude mandela. It is not only a symbol of my gratitude for this site, but also to my Gods and Goddesses that have guided me through the dark forest that is my life.

I guess being a Witch makes me an NB in the eyes of the Christians on the site; I also have a very different point of view as to what a prayer is.
A spell is a prayer and little more. When you do a spell you are using your mind to alter the interconnected fabric of Universe to change or bring about an out come. It takes a lot of concentration. Not all my spells work, but enough do that go beyond chance to prove to me that they do work. You can do a spell with or without the help of Devine which is the big difference between Christian prayer and spell work. I usually use Devine help which makes my spell work closer to a prayer. I think using the Devine actually makes it less likely to work, but the Devine being you are working with knows future of this life and the next and knows whether the outcome will be a good thing or not. Better to not have it work than bring yourself a lot of grief.

WOW spells huh...have you any other experiences to share? I for one would love to read them...ohh and by the way..to a lot of christians you are just another NB or like me a non christian..but to me you are a human being....in fact that's what we all are mere flesh blood...and IMO we are ALL Gods people....this is why I couldn't become a christian, because I see people for more than just some poxy lable..I see them as human beings with feelings just like me, and who am I to pass judgement to those who are NB's??? After all no one dies and made me God!!!!! thank goodness I am not that narrowminded and ignorant

Most Christians make up their own prayers. How else would you pray?

PA i think you have misunderstood BEC'S MA she doesn't allow any book or any body tell her how to pray she decides...Maybe you do the same eh????

So ye want a Witchy story.

The last one I did was done with a group. I was in a coven last year and we had a bad break up. Two of the members wanted control of the coven and the rest of want no part of it. Well the two wicked Witches kicked us out which left them a coven of two. The problem was they had in their possession objects that belonged to each one us that could be used against us magically. (Which we suspected they did.) We told them we wanted them back but they were refusing to return them. They cited some Wiccan law that said they could keep them. Since we weren't Wiccan we were not bound by it. We were bound by the bylaws of the coven that said the objects would be returned. After many requests that the objects be returned were refused we decided we must take action. We cast a spell in our old circle using an Egyptian ceremony. (One of the girls in our coven follows the Egyptian Path. I can't go into detail. I don't post spells on the web.) The next day the Wicked Witches showed up at the door of one of our members with our objects. Good thing for them. If they had used them against us it would have not gone well for them. We burned objects the next day. Even though I live in the same town as the wicked witches I have not seen them since. IMO the spell worked well.

I too use meditation for anything related to what could be called as a prayer. I believe if there is anyway to find the Truth or feel the ultimate peace inside, it will be through meditation. I think a definition of prayer, one who is giving all their heart and really focusing on intention, is using some form of meditation. Either one should come from a deep focusing of within, getting to the core of who you are.

Christians would believe that we all have a Holy Ghost, NB's would believe that we have a Soul or True Self. Which ever you believe, it is used as your connection to the Universe/God. So whether you call it prayer or meditation, I think you need to tap into that inner being in order to get the results that you are looking for.

The other day i had a job interview for my dream job (with Contiki Tours)...The night before my interview i had a really deep and meaningful with God...I prayed very strongly. Many people were questioning what direction my life was going in, i was always being judged and i was going "nowhere" and i was sick of the negativity. Sometimes my prayers are weak but i really wanted this, i wanted God to help me out- i told God to help me excel in the interview...The next day the interview came and i had a bumby start with the speech-
then i had a 30 minute question/answer interview and the answers came rolling out of my tongue like crazy, i barely stuttered or said "um" the interviewers were impressed with me...Heck i was impressed with me...They told me they had 300 interviews to go and they'd let me know near Easter...

I got a call today and...

GOT THE JOB!

I'm so excited and i believe that with my prayer God assisted me- he spiritually strengthened me to feel good about myself and to be positive and to show them and i did...Now i have a "direction" and people are happy for me...To think that 20 people out of 350 people were selected and i was one of them makes me think prayer is worthwhile.

PA you sure have misunderstood me LOL When I say I make my own prayers up I do so as if i am writing a peom..I make them up without the use of a book...whatever the situation is..thats what I add into my prayer..my prayers are all about me and my family..therefore cannot be passed on to others..although I did make up a few for my mom's christian fellowship group to read at one of their meetings...and when I got a great responce they asked my mom to see if I had any more for them to read...this was great for me, it showed I had a gift to write myself...I love writing...so when I write my own (that comes off the top of my head) they always work best..this is how BM prays...the only prayer I say that was taught to me is....

Oh Lord....Send your guardian angle down to watch over us and keep us safe and protected at all times..

Oh Angle of God, my guardian dear
To whome Gods love, commits me here
Ever this day, be at my side
To light and guard, to rule and guide
Amen

Ohh I forgot this one for forgiveness ( an old catholic prayer so I still use it)

I confess to allmighty God
And to you my brothers & sisters
For I have sinned through my own thoughts
And in my thought, and in my words
What I have done, and what I have failed to do
So I ask Jesus, all the angles and saints
To pray for me, now and at the hour
so that I will never sin again
Amen



Glory to the coven LOL Funny how you have never seen them again sice that happened...would the coven be more powerful?? I would love to work spells...but I would only use them for good


WOW I too am impressed Ramster CONGRATS to you I hope all works out well...and thank you for telling us what has happened
You did meet God half way Ramster...you did your best at the interview, so God has seen this and did the rest for you...he knows you put your heart into the prayers and he knows you fully prepared yourself well..so your prayers where granted..Now all you have to do is thank God himself
Once again that was impressive...see prayer does work once you totally put your mind to it
Ramster...lets us know how you have settled into your new job.....I pray every day before going to work...here is what I say...

"Dear lord, I am going to work real hard today, please help me achieve some great results" Then my sales targets is met, I have good feed back ect all becuase I tried and did work hard...then I sometimes say..........."Dear lord, I am going to work real hard, please help me get reconized for my efforts today"..............Guess what has happened when I say that?? Not only did I get top sales in kitchen design..but managed to recieve employee of the month 3 times...

Thanks for the responce....meditation must really work wonders for you, and yes those who give it all heart from deep within are using a form of meditiation you feel better once you have done it that way

Here is a lil prayer I made up myself..because I held a gruge with my father for the past and my mom pleading with me to forgive him....so I wrote this...




It's working so far so good

BM thats an Awesome prayer and thanks for your kind words with my job! Again that prayer is obviously from the heart...sweeeet.

The coven is no more. The rest of us are still friends, but we are still shell shocked. Maybe one day we will work together again, but for now we just hang.
That was a spell for defence and those who are smart use their spells for good like healing. You work a spell whenever you say a prayer.
When I see a priest doing a house blessing; he sprinkles holy water, swings a censer. He is essentually doing a spell.

Hmm I never thought of blessing to be more like a spell...intresting TY



Here's another I just made up for you...your job interview post inspired this one....



You can use it if you like..I kept it short and sweet

hmm me thinks BM here should create her own prayer book LOL I'd make a fortune

Just a note about the "Prayer Healing".

I work in minority, and i have seen too many cases were a child must bo hospitalizated by a sickness or accindet, and the parents or close family deny this and use "the power of pray to god" to ask for the health of the minor. I have seen too many cases were the minor die or get worse because of not getting medical attention. And in most of the cases, the families were evangelical, or Jheova Witness.
Also, there are too many cases around the world of this. My stance: Pray all you want, but take your sick loved one to the doctor.

Well sure take your sick one to the doctor..its still meeting God half way the prayers are for the doctors to help that sick person...you can't expect someone to lay sick without getting any help

Say we take the religion out of prayer, say we remove the God factor. What do we have left? What we have is Human beings using the power of their mind in a positive fashion. I believe the human mind is full of unrealized prowess. That to totally involve your minds thoughts unto something positive and to truly want a positive outcome will be advantagess to the outcome.

When one says to "meet God half way", well isn't this putting positive thought into action, and a positive action most often invokes a positive reaction. It is one thing to sit there and wish for something good to happen, and it is another to get up and do something about it.

I can understand using God as a focal point for prayers as an object for concentration, but when this is utilized then one automatically credits God with the outcome. In essence when this is done in the absence of the God focal, then where is the credit due? To use God as a source of prayer answering, then one is alleviating the true essence and power of the human mind and potential, this I believe diminishes the human belief in itself, indeed it replaces human accountability with that of an unseen power......this is not productive and hinders progression on the scale of mankind as a whole.

I believe in the power of positive thought and I can entertain the idea of positve energy overcoming negative energy. I often wonder how much more powerful this process would be if we as individuals were aware that the whole process is dependent on our belief in ourselves

it seems some of these posts don;t understnd themselves as the source of whats showing up n their lives, whats on your mind is your life, your life reflects what you are most often thinking about and relfects the core beleifs so many cherish as well as some collective beleifs........It would serve a person well to not have beliliefs that are limiting in any way, one pleading and supplicating outside of oneself as if the meaning of yor life iis out of your hands is the same as saying you don't want the job, or whatever it is you are begging for its got a unworthy vibe around it and your experince will mirror your beleifs........Life gives you exactly what you think it will no more and no less.....

The hardest thing for many to do is give up their most cherish beleifs, such as a diety that grants wishes if you are worthy enough, very limiting and can't possibly make for a good time lol.....with all the thoughts are creative philosophys that are abundant now adays it still surprises me so many hold on to such old worn out useless, dogmatic ideas ..."shrugs'

When I was a Christian, I used to pray for my mom's mental problems to end almost every night. Since then, they've only gotten steadily worse. You can believe prayer helps all you like, but in the real world, it does nothing.




If God is all powerful, tell me why you need to meet him halfway? Prayer does not cause operations to be more successful, it does not cause people to live in certain death situations.

And one note, you said in the first post that God spends all of his time on us.. That's simply ridiculous. All that God's done with our earth would be no harder than blinking for any omnipotent, perfect being. He's supposedly in a timeless realm...

I practice what I call, when asked , non-deific Hatha Yoga. It's a yogic technique that attends not only physical posturing many think of when they think of yoga, but also insures a strengthening and balance of the mind and emotions. It allows me to get in tune with my deeper self, where all the stress and daily issues of career and family do not intrude.

And while believers pray to something unseen so as to answer life's issues, I practice creative visualization. Going into my temple self, that is the only goddess I recognize in my reality (hence the SN because that is the creatress of my reality by conscious exercise of will). As a ceremony, if you will, of introspective reflection.

As I've said before here, I love me. There isn't anything I wouldn't do for me. No one knows me like I do. I want only the best for me and in that I shall affect a positive presence in this world I share with others. In this life I am all that matters first. Everyone else is transient and on the periphery, because it is me, myself, that shall always be the first one to enjoy or suffer the decisions, the choices, I make.

I don't believe in prayer because prayer is representative of apprehension. And it also would be in conflict with what is believed to be the deific attribute of omniscience. What does one tell a god that knows everything about them?! Thus, what do they ask for, that it can not know already!?

I have had a very profound experience in my life which, while not what you would call an answer to a prayer, did help me get through a very difficult stage I was going through. A believer could explain this as an answer to a prayer I didn't know I was making I suppose, however - as profound as this experience was - it in no way confirmed for me the existence of god.

I have never tried prayer but I do meditate on a daily basis.

(With this cast on theres bugger all else I can do) I have been meditating for years and have tried many different types recently deciding on insight meditation as the one I do.

I do not ascribe any religious beliefs what so ever to this meditation, when I do it I think of it as nothing more then clearing my mind completely.

I find it to be an excellent way to relieve stress and that it always leaves me calmer and clearer.

I am a strong believer in the power of prayer and have witnessed it at work in my life. I am disabled, but my faith keeps me strong. Also, I have prayed for others and my prayers are answered in one fashion, or another.

I truly felt His spirit when I was homeless and living rough back in the US, when I was seperated from my first husband. When I have ever been let down from my fellow woman/mankind, I always know that He is there for me to speak to and if need be He carries me through difficult pathways in life.

I suggest that everybody take time out and just speak to Him like you would your own parent. I give thanks each and every day of my life. I loved Him yesterday, more today and even more tomorrow. He never lets us down, we let Him down.

Unfortunately the "power" of prayer was non-existant when my mother and aunt were praying everyday while my father, grandmother, and grandfather were all ravaged and subdued by cancer. Telling someone that prayer actually works, as opposed to circumstance, sadly instills false hope.

^I truly am sorry that your family has gone through the pain of seeing loved ones suffer through illness and disease such as you say. Though in relation to the topic, have you considered that just because your family's prayer was not answered with a "yes", that it need not mean that prayer wasn't answered in another way?

Just a thought.

~ PA

btw, welcome to UM, zackeous

Thanks for the welcome. I'm not sure what you mean by answered in another way.

BTW is your name in reference to Douglas Adams's masterpiece and/or Radiohead? Either way, nice choice

God provides us with what we need, not necessarily with what we want. Prayer need not always be answered with a "yes" to still be answered. It is a natural part of life to die. No matter how we try to avoid it, it is an unavoidable fact. And praying to God may not prolong life (though it might - I won't discount that). Prayer may provide us with what we need in other respects - spiritually, it may provide comfort during trials; personally, it may be that a friend or friends will turn up and help in unexpected ways. I don't know, I'm not an expert on other people's lives. All these, though also ascribed possibly to natural sources (especially the help of a friend - though sometimes aid arrives in other ways, not necessarily through friends), may also be the domain of God in acting in people's lives or acting in your own life to provide that which you need.

I hope that makes some sense for you.

It's a hitch-hiker's thing, though I can't say I'm adverse to Radiohead either. But more the first.

Nice BM, but I don't think that someone would try prayer unless they were trying to get in touch with God. It has played a big part in my relationship with the Creator. I am in direct contact with him now at all times. I can feel him there at all times. I can feel him calming me when I am angry. I can feel him warming my heart when I am sad. I see him working throughout the Earth. I see him modling the hearts of men. It is truly a gift.

I would like to present this as an alternative to what so many people say is the power of prayer. There are many stories of prayer saving people. One that caught my attention was the girl that recovered from rabies without vaccination. It is implied that she is the only person to EVER do so, as of 2004. Untrue. There have been several cases reported over the years, though they are rare. Also, it is implied that she simply recovered via the power of prayer. Her recovery was NOT easy, ans she is NOT completely cured.

" An additional case in Wisconsin was reported in 2004 of a 15-year-old adolescent girl who survived rabies without preexposure or postexposure prophylaxis. The girl was bitten by a bat 1 month prior and was given intravenous ribavirin and kept comatose for 7 days. She has partially recovered. As stated above, this is the sixth known case of human recovery from rabies; however, this is the first patient who did not receive rabies prophylaxis either before or after the onset of symptoms. "

It just seems to me that too often, people rave about the power of prayer, and the facts are not examined closely. This girl recieved intensive medical care, and barely survived, and will feel the effects of this illness all her life. She is not 100% recovered according to medical reports, and barely survived with the best medical care available.

I don't think it was prayer, period. I think it was modern medicine. That's just me, I am sure people can twist around the facts and make it seem that prayer was responsible in some round-about way, but I just don't believe it. I think there is real danger in relying on prayer alone, and making it seem like prayer alone cured someone can be reckless. There are people that refuse medical treatment based on the belief that prayer is the answer. If that had happened to this girl, I am sure she would have died.

Prayer is fine, and may help, I don't know. But keep it in perspective.

I must admit, in relation to Zackeous personal experience, that indeed it can be said prayer was answered in another way. If one chooses to see it as family prayers were answered in another way. Those they were praying for, now that they're dead, don't suffer anymore the pain of cancer in this life.
Going on the premise god gives us everything we need, not necessarily everything we want, is a cop out. It's that answer for all those that ask Z's same question!? Why didn't god hear? Somehow I don't think that god gave that family what they needed, when they had to bury three beloved family members that only stopped suffering because they stopped living the pain. I don't think anyone that prays for better, and gets less would feel relieved because at least they got what they needed. Though it might escape them as to exactly what that would be, though "It's a mystery", always seems to be yet another balm that soothes the quandary.

My sympathy goes to you Zacheous. I've attended a few deathbed vigils for cancer patients. It's not easy watching the vibrant life of those people love, fade so painfully. It's even worse when death is the only relief they have to look forward to, because everything else has failed their hope.

The power of prayer is based on people talking to what is in their mind a good allpowerful entity and believeing that this entity will help and support them. This has it's minor charms and uses, but not because of some guy waving with a magic wand. A lot of people claim that they feel a lot more safer, easier, less stressed after praying. I can believe that. If you THINK you are well then you will FEEL well, but it's all in your mind. For an example when I was 10 then I saw a really scary movie about aliens and I was freaked out. I was too afraid to go to bed. What I did was I created an imaginary friend, an alien, who promised to protect me from the other ones with a powerful forcefield:P I felt very safe right after and fell sleep right away. I thought I was protected, I felt I was protected. The same thing, I was just talking to a different entity.

As for the wonderful claims of people healing because of prayer... Again, there is SOME truth in it. A person's healing is dependant on his mindset among other things. If you are depressed, stressed, suicidal without anything to live for then yes, that illness will have a better chance of taking you down. If it's the opposite, then ofcourse you have a better chance at recovery. Naturally, a deeply religious person's mindset and mental well-being is dependant on his belief that god is protecting and healing him. Thus, he is more optimistic and happier, making it easier for the body to recover. Saying that someone recovered mainly because of this while he is wired to a dozen machines is just rubbish. The effect of the prayer is minimal...

And I cannot really say much about the low rate of positively answered prayers, because whatever anyone says you can always say that "God works in mysterious ways" or something in the lines of that. In my humble opinion though if you pray a hundred times for a hundred different things then something is bound to go right eventualy...

which to me makes it seem like nothing but circumstance.

BTW thanks for the sentiments, I do appreciate them.

When I tried praying, it was because I was out of other ideas. I didn't believe it would work. That's an understatement. I didn't even have the concept that it could work. It simply did not occur to me. I thought it was some kind of psychotherapy ritual, like saying affirmations into a mirror or writing letters to people and not sending them.

I prayed only for knowledge of God's will for me and the power to carry that out. Doesn't sound like much, but believe me, it was a tall order, because at the time, I could hardly carry out a damned thing. I asked for the removal of anything that kept me from carrying out whatever my purpose was. Never mind that I had no concept that it was possible to have any purpose in life. All the same, said obstacles were removed, and today my life is different.

Let me clear about what this means. It means that I accept whatever God, the gods, destiny, fate, life, or whatever you want to call it has in store for me. If that means I get hit by a car driven by some idiot on crack tomorrow, then so be it. I didn't pray to hang on to my career, my house, my money, my marriage, my dignity, or anything else I wanted. I just wanted knowledge of the next right thing to do and the power to do that. Lo and behold, today I can say life is good.

Does prayer have power for a nonbeliever? I can tell you with absolute confidence that it had power for this nonbeliever. That doesn't mean that if I pray for my insurance rates to go down or for my mom's chronic illnesses to go away, they will. What it does is it transforms me so that I can withstand these trials that are part of life.

Z, my heart felt condolances to your loved ones....i feel its pivitol to explore what you beleive prayer to mean, prayer to many is begging and supplicating to a diety taht isn't there......Prayer theologically is very limited to begin with, you can only pray if you really need somemthing and god deems you needy enough, then he may answer but not in a way that is of help to you..under these circumstances it woudl darn near be impossilbe to get a prayer ( energy moved) enough to create matter or circumstance....its like those who apply for the job with the certainty they arent' gonna be hired, then they arent' and wonder indignantly how that could be..yet instead of examining the beleif they twist the outcome to fit their preconcieved idea of how its not god the great wonder but for their own good..even though tthey can't figure out how not eating and paying the rent is good for them...it must be, god loves them so..........scratches head......

Ah, here we go, reviving old threads again! I can see the quote-"I am the Resurrection and the Thread"! Why is there such disagreement on this kind of topic. Maybe, just maybe-prayer helps, but don't disregard medical help, either! Miracles still happen, but why rely on them? At the "healing site" of Lourdes, there are thousands of crutches, but not one artificial leg.

Medical help is fine for medical problems. Prayer can heal a spiritual malady.

what is a spiritual malady ????

I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you asking what I mean by "malady?" It means "illness." Prayer can heal a spiritual illness.

what do you mean by spiritual illness i guess I'm asking..

Any dysfunction in the nonphysical aspect of one's being, such as personality, motivation, and emotion.

For example, attitudes or conduct that are unnecessarily distressing to oneself or that cause impairment in one's functioning.

If you're of a certain mindset, you might say an "illness of the soul," or you might prefer the more worldly terminology.

So: A person who is divided, suffering, or lame in a spiritual sense can effect his own healing by praying. My point here is that prayer is not supposed to do the same job as medicine-- although spiritual health does improve physical health. What prayer can do is transform oneself for the better. It does not take away trials so much as it makes one more capable of handling them. From a subjective standpoint, it can transform such trials into growth experiences, thereby turning a negative into a positive. I have found that prayer works in this way whether or not one believes it will.

What is a spiritual illness??

To me the most prominent would be burning obessesion to have power over others.

Ah I see, well that is something i would never suffer from LOL