What about this one then Irish?

Deuteronomy 21
20) they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21) And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Or do you want to do the NT?

Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Luke 19:27
But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Matthew 10:34
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Luke 22
36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Orders are orders....

The Bible is the word of God....be he as cruel and violent (per Christian Bible) as he is.

Zan Well sadly i have to pass on a partnership with this ogre......

Gratitude should be a natural response if the relationship is sound, but we know with human nature it’s not always that way. Sometimes it is important to point it out. Something’s are not always obvious from a child’s perspective and what you may perceive as in the child’s best interest may be perceived by the child as restrictive and demanding
Irish

Why be sad? Rejoice!

But this is where are paths veer and perspective probably counts for alot, irish do you believe that man is inherently flawed???? That man is seperate from life/god?????So grattitude would be seen as restricitive and demanding i'm not following clarify please......

lol you do have a point Zan

Falls under the same categories as stated previously.



If one chooses to follow Christ they must be prepared to make enemies even with loved ones


This is an analogy, used out of context of the story being told read before and after this verse.


My interpretation on this is the Word (Jesus) is a sword.

Here we must look at "Luk 22:37 For I say unto you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in me, And he was reckoned with transgressors: for that which concerneth me hath fulfilment."
To understand that Jesus was speaking figuratively, that at that moment they were unarmed until He had completed (fulfilled) what He had come to do (sacrifice Himself). And then they would be fully armed with the Sword (the Word).



And laws are laws…..
But analogies are but stories to express a point!

Irish

QUOTE(wallflower1996 @ Apr 6 2006, 09:05 PM)
"That's very poetic, but it is logically meaningless. One-sided love (sufficient unto itself) necessarily means indifference to the object of love. Don't believe me? Okay...would you consider it a great compliment if you got a Valentine's Day or anniversary card from your husband, and on the inside the message was "I am sufficient unto myself"? Nobody else would either!"
Sheri: "Wally i have chosen to be in a relationship that my partner is sufficent unto himself and vice versa we aren't in this to 'complete each other we are here to share our journeys enhance the others life not burden them with insecurities... You just aren't understanding where i'm coming from . and you see love as conditional......i do for you you do for me correct?? I actually would be greatly complimented to recieve such a card and actually had partnership vows something along those lines..."

- Getting a Valentine's Day Card that reads "I am sufficient unto myself" is the ultimate compliment; it's acknowledging unconditional love. I would hope that the card would be worded a bit better but the message is that of all the golden yummies you could ask for in a relationship.

**********

Another thing related to this thread... The Bible was written by and for an Honor - Shame Society. We in the West certainly don't live in one now, so we need to adapt in order to apply. I can't speak for Christianity but I can provide a conservative Judaism spin on some of laws in Leviticus that Zannie posted. Conservative and Reformed Jews, and most Orthodox Jews, realize that those Laws of Moses are ancient and archaic. For the most part, Judaism has become modernized and in many circumstances, postmodernized. One example would be that loving yourself is as primary as loving [G-d].

**********

- Michael and his 2 cents worth.

The first question is easy; Yes I do.
The second part is all in ones perspective, I wanted a motorcycle at the age of 12, my father cuffed me (gently) across the back of the head with a resounding “NO bloody way” From my perspective then he was a mean cruel SOB but I grew and learned that he had his reasons. And I at that time did not want to reason I just wanted the motorcycle.
Irish

That was Abraham and i dont think it was twisted...The main meaning of that story wasnt that God wanted Abraham to know he loved him...God wanted Abraham to prove to HIMSELF that he loved God. Abraham trusted in God and God didnt break that trust- instead of Abrahams Son God gave him a great meal (lamb). God KNEW Abraham loved him but did Abraham know how much he loved God? This showed that Abraham had great spirit towards God and truely loved him.

Micheal i have to say your card would have to be worded very eloquently lol Thankyou for this awesome post it makes very good points as always...My gosh what can i say i agree with this man lol

The words of God.....


BTW:
Luke 22
36) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37) For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38) And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Why would he/they need to buy a word? What use would two words be?

Now for the kicker......

Book of John
Chapter 1
Chapter 1
Verse 1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God buying 2 Gods.........

Here is another example of what you should NOT do according to the Christian bible....
Any of you who know about Jehovah's Witnesses, know that they obstain from blood transfusions and this is the verse that they use to substantiate that...take a look...

Acts 15:19-21

19 Hence my decision is not to trouble those from the nations who are turning to God, 20 but to write them to abstain from things polluted by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21 For from ancient times Moses has had in city after city those who preach him, because he is read aloud in the synagogues on every sabbath.”


And towards homosexuality...

Romans 1:24-27

24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error.


Doesn't seem too unconditional to me

That was a hell of a way to prove something.....think of the mental pain

Irish my answer to the same question (is man inherently flawed is) NO NO NO !!!!
yes man chooses beleifs that convince him of this but its a choice to beleive this there are just as many beleif structures that teach that one is perfect as one is.. but IMO it is False Nothing is inappropriate given its model.....Is white the exclusion of all color or the inclusion of all color???? Our beleifs create our behavior IMO one should choose wisely.....

Jesus calls the disciples to readiness
a. Jesus is saying: "I am on the point of leaving you, and when I am gone, you must use common sense means for provision and protection" - such practical considerations were not needed before, but were needed now
b. The disciples had been sent out to do ministry without Jesus before (Luke 10:1-17), but then they were received with goodwill and hospitality. Now they are facing a hostile world without Jesus, and must be prepared
c. It is enough means enough of this kind of talk (Jesus' firm way of ending the conversation), not two swords will be enough - how could two swords ever be enough against all those who came to arrest Jesus?
i. Jesus' disciples must be "just as determined and whole-hearted as a fighting man who gives up everything, even his garment, as long as he only possesses a sword to continue the struggle with.")
from: Luke study guide; David Guzik.

Your kicker was self explanitory

Again Zan these are the logical flows that seem to me one puts alot of effort into making sense of , It makes no sense why one who is All inclusive, Is all things anyways NEED ANYTHING??? Especially for its creations to prove to themselves they love him????? I'm still not getting the lesson here Ramster why would this diety need this whats the point ??????

Does pain associate with one you truely trust with your heart and soul? Abraham knew he was in safe hands its a story of faith and trust- that day Abraham knew exactly how much he loved God- only powering his spirit.

Sheri

Sometimes you dont realize how much you love someone or how much one means to you- what happened to Abraham did NOTHING for God but it did everything for Abraham. Besides Abraham was only human and that experience showed how important faith is- and showed he could trust in God- an overwhelming experience for a person i'd assume.

If man is not inherently flawed why are there such things as:
Liars
Cheats
Murderers
Evil men
Cowards
And why do we experience;
Depression
Anxiety
Guilt
Obsessions
Doubts
And most of all a fear of death.
They all sound like charactor flaws to me, and all of us have experienced at least one of the above.
Irish

I too would love to believe that man’s nature is all good and rosy but the evidence shows that there is something inherently wrong with the heart of man. And I believe the bible has the best answers to this enigma.
Irish

Ramster so basically its a story to support the doctrine (how religion thinks things are) I understand thats why it wsn't making sense to me, I see in christianity 'faith is the operative word.

Irish, doctrines such as the bible are the inspiration to many of the flaws you listed, they are taught not natural to who we are IMO. Until the last ten years or so Religon was the main guide still is in many places, i see no other possible explination yet what is being taught from the bible as a guide for humanity in your words could explain these behaviors.
If you tell a child he is worthless and inherently evil he will grow into that simple as that, if you tell a child he is perfect how he is and needs nothing to outside of himself to be whole and that he is the beloved the person they become is far different, he will be using his attributes to benefit humainty, If you tell a man he is flawed he will be spending his life seeking to be better. You know you are what you beleive...you only see in others what you see in yourself .. Now this isn't to say tha tall religous people are 'evil but the potential is there beleifs are very powerful many of a person takes they are flawed very literally.Of course this is my two cents

On the contrary, my list of flaws is just as prevalent in isolated tribesmen that have had little or no exposure to the bible or religion. They are flaws of the human condition not of philosophy or belief. Education does not contribute to flaws it only helps to identify them.
And our strengths and virtues grow from the knowledge of our weaknesses and limitations. If you tell a child only that he is perfect in every way he will grow to be arrogant and uncaring of others. Because he considers himself to be perfect, he will use that measure to judge others as less than himself.
To be humble is a far better virtue than to be self confident. All in proper measure.
I don’t know who said it but I have always liked the phrase “A man is never as tall as when he kneels to help a child”
All the Best
Irish

These same tribesman saw themselves as flawed they decided that and wrote bibles to support the concept Imagine had they of decided they were fine just the way they were.Irish no one sits around in their rocking and says hell I wish i would of been down on myself more told my kids they were bigger pieces of sh** then I did, spent alot more time telling myself i was ignorant and weak, no you will (even from my years almost 40) wish i'd of thought like i do now awhole lot sooner never missed an oppourtunity to give the gift of self esteem , told the truth instead of denying their was a problem to begin with.had back the moments i fought with a loved one and said things that weren't true out of anger, Spent alot more moments loving myself becasue in that i would of been a lot more moments loving others as myself. Come on Irish that is so no true tell a child he is the beloved and he will climb mountains, the philosophy of no worth is the root of many evils when one is worthless what does he do but be a victum in turn victimizing others.????I am not my brothers keeper what he sees in me he sees in himself first......All life proceeds from self......

See I agree with this but what I don't get is I hear people say this not just on here but in real life, and then they turn around saying...but iiiiiiffffffff ya don't follow God you don't get into heaven!!!!!! now what is wrong with that..is the fact that one min they are saying ...don't worry if you either don't believe or dont love (same thing eh?) God will still love you!!!!.........but does that mean yeaaa he will still love ya..but chuck you straight into hell..for not believing/following him??? LOL sounds weid............

I was referring to tribesmen in today’s world. Sheri I agree with you to a point, to hammer someone suffering from low self esteem is just cruelty. But to challenge one to do better than they have done before is motivation and inspiration for personal growth. If we give up trying to become better people we are a waste of skin.
There is some wisdom in “you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind” in the right measure. Heck I know people who’s heads are so big if I gave them another compliment they would explode.
My kids would tell you that I was a bit of a hard ass and I did push them to succeed. But today all but one are university graduates and love life to the max. Knowing when to push and when to nurture is the key, self esteem is built on accomplishments and sometimes we need that push to accomplish.
Irish

Irish is there an end to the greatness one could accomplish the ones that have shared something they beleived in themselvs confidence is the greatest motivator there is, it takes one of incredible confidence to say there is another way, no mouse or one suffering from insecurites could accomlish that, look at ghandi, martin Luther king muhammid ali I'm sure you have a list too. He haven't begun to understand what we as humans are capable of in the great department. My kids are little yet one is grown 22 in college working but the little ones 12, 8 no peer pressure they are the leaders not the followers no one is getting them to do things and my own parents tryed to get my kids to go away from the family teachings and they didn't bite my mother herself told me , you will never have to worry about your kids getting into trouble...i feel as a parent being anything but in my kids corner being resepctful to them will only hurt them, I want my kids to say no to certain things and teaching them they are worthless and flawed would not serve me ..confidence and love of self and self resepct are great tools for a mother.IMO and so far in my journey as a parent it has served me very well.

Liars: Ok I see many young children lie...if God created us...then God is the one who put in the ability to lie. Thus it is his fault....

Cheating: Again, children cheat when they play boardgames. Therefore it is something we are born with the ability to do. I have never taught my children to cheat or lie and yet they attempt to do it anyways....

Murder: This is one of my favorites. Who decided that it was wrong to kill another man? Animals kill each other all the time over land, hunting grounds, mates...Men are nothing but animals. In some cultures it is perfectly acceptable to fight to the death for certain things.

Evil men: Who determines what is evil? I am sure most of you think that what occured at 9/11 was an evil act. The men that carried those acts out had to be evil did they not? But if you ask them what reason will you get for what they did? Religion. So what makes what they did any worse than anything else done in the name of religion. They think they were perfectly justified in their acts cause they were acting in accordance with their beliefs.

Cowards: I don't understand what makes being a coward a flaw. Don't we all need the common sense that cowardice provides so that we do not do something completely stupid and kill ourselves?

Depression: I have seen more people on depression medication in the last ten years...it is rediculous. Funny thing is, most of these people ARE religious. If I had it drilled into my head that I am a terrible person and commiting sins all the time I think I would be depressed too.

Anxiety...see above
Guilt...see above
Obesessions...see above
Doubts...see above

Fear of death: I would be affraid of dying too if I thought that when I die I might go to hell for the sins I have comitted.

All of the problems stated are problems that have been created by society. Are they flaws? I don't think so. According to Christians, we were created by their god, therefore if we are flawed than he is the reason we are....

I think we are perfect the way we are. We have the ability to change all of those things mentioned. It is all in how you look at it. We determine what is right and what is wrong. What REALLY makes something right or wrong...perfect or flawed? Think about it

Hey SB, good thread!! I have attended several different churches of different religions. I agree that what the Bible says and what the religion expects from its members are contradicting. I also find in silly that you see religious leaders in hot water with the law sometimes. Kinda makes you wonder what the members of those religions think of that..

I don't get it
I gave the details of the story, and the scriptural reference for it so you could check it up yourself. What did I leave out?

Let us suppose for a moment that a murderer is in jail. It's parole time and they are not remorseful. They don't care that they killed somone, and in fact vow to keep on killing other people once he's released.

In the veins of unconditional Love, you'd release this guy? Oh please. Yet you try and fit God into the same mould. That he'd release murderer's and rapists and child molestor's, just because he Loves us all unconditionally......

It's not that you don't believe in God. My analogy above should answer your question. Also, ask yourself this: What is Hell?

Regards, PA

btw, lol, so true

Tengu great points

PA you dont know the true answers to my questions whether God will let anyone into heaven or not...in fact I am aware that no one does....this much I do know...as for hell...........to me its here on earth..nuff said

For the same reason as to WHY the rest of the skeptics post here...its part of the boards Spirituality V's Skepticismand She holds an intrest as to WHY others follow other faiths... Like me but I am a believer in God but skeptic about the bible ect...this to us is the most intresting board of the forum....you have your fav place to post others do to...as to why people post where they do..meh...I think everyone has their fav...dont you Michelle?

Agreed, I do not know for sure. Neither does anyone, we can agree there I was just answering your question from a biblical perspective

Regards, PA

PA this is why I respect you...cuz you know that no one will ever really know what God or how God thinks...you respect it..and at the same time you still show you are a true christian...you dont show ignorance to everything IMO...and yet I read posts from people that act as though they KNOW what God is thinking....you arent like that... this I do respect you for!!

I'm speechless

Yes a readiness to do battle. What else is a sword used for but fighting.

God made the child sick..... then as you put it "took the child".....why?
What sin did the baby commit to be killed by a so called loving God?
Love me or I will kill your children!
Punishing the child for the sins of the parent and this is called "Unconditional Love"?


Sorry my friend but you can keep this God of yours.

I still fail to see what I left out. I gave all the details, and references. What, if anything, did I leave out?

You're not saying anything I didn't in my earlier post........
That said, I do find killing the child a little..... excessive. The child was a result of a sinful union, of which David was punished by losing that son. The Grace God shows though was that through that same sinful union, came arguably the greatest ruler Israel ever had.

As I've said in many other thread's there's that repeated pattern throughout the Bible - SIN - JUDGEMENT - REPENTENCE - GRACE. David sinned through (as good as) killing Uriah, Bathsheba's husband, and committing adultery with Bathsheba. David realised his error, and repented. The death of the child was judgement. And Solomon was the Grace.

Could God have used another punishment - probably. I'm not going to go and second-guess God. I'm not forcing you to believe in the God of the BIble. I'm just showing what is in the Bible, and giving my own belief.

Regards, PA

You said God took the child....nothing about God making the child sick or the child dieing.



Let me remind you of a comment you made....



Why make the child suffer (sick) before killing it?

and also, why punish the child for the 'sins' of the father?

why indeed

"why punish the child for the 'sins' of the father?"

- This is the just exactly perfect example of the Honor-Shame Society that the Bible (and Torah) were written. It's common knowledge that in an Honor-Shame Society the sins of any family member reflect upon the entire family.

And that was only part of his "punishment".

Go figure!

Good point micheal, I had never looked at htis from a honor shame perspective hmmm...

or the story of David, written years later, simply accounts for the child's death by saying it was punishment for David's sins. Much more likely.

Thanks Gid

"took the child". It's a nice way of saying the child died. It's like "passed away". I thought everyone knew that
I did provide scriptural reference - anyone who so chose who read up on it would see exactly what I meant.......

Perhaps