Is the bible 's core message one of UNCONDITIONAL love or one based in conditons...Over and over I read the bible has this message of such great unconditional love...
Yet scripture after scripture there are conditons....Is this a contradiction or a misinterpretation on my part ??????

What does the bible have to do with love in the first place?

Love thy neighbor
I've always assumed that the core messages tied into grace and dealt with forgiveness.

I'M NOT SURE,maybe it is CONTRDICTION because although the bible talks alot about the uncondional love god has for his people, in order for us to recieve this love we must have faith & CONSTANLY REPENT AND ASK FOR FORGIVENESS because of our sins and are weakness to fall into sin......

I would say...honestly...it contradicts itself. Some parts of the bible it says that god loved the world so much he gave his only begotten son....(i forget the verse)...but then all through the bible you see nothing but death, killing in the name of god. The plagues for instance, the torture that Job went through just because god wanted to prove a point. The flood which to me looks like nothing but a giant temper tantrum. If you read the bible and forget that we are talking about 'The Almighty God' and possibly think that it is an alien life form doing these things to people it no longer becomes a book about love but turns into a terrible story of torture from a power hungry being. Yes there are stories of great love, caring, and compassion...but then there is all the 'you must do this and you can't do that' tied into it, with horrible punishments if you disobey, that I would say the punishment definately does not fit the crime.

Your right Ms. Tengu............. The bible does contain many stories of death and people suffering through trials, and then I cant recall the name of the man who had to take his son up to the mountain to sacrife him to prove he loved god, and then god told him he didnt have too once he had his son on the alter............ IT IS A BIT TWISTED? NO?

conditional Yele because You must love your neighbor to recieve grace.....and you must act in accordance with the rules to recieve 'forgiveness........

That was Abraham who was asked to sacrifice his son, Isaac. In the end he was instead told to sacrifice a sheep if i remember correctly, in his son's place. And yes that is a horrible thing to ever ask anyone to do. If anyone asked me to sacrifice one of my children I would be after them with the nearest weapon I could find.

The Bible is contradictory, but that's partly because the term "unconditional love" is contradictory in the way it is usually used. What it usually means, amounts to (whether the speaker admits it or not) saying "I'll feel exactly the same way about you no matter what do you or who you become." That's not love, conditional or otherwise, it's idolatry.

Right, the way I saw it was you forgive to receive grace. "Loving" your neighbor and turning the other cheek wasn't the core message imo. Forgiveness was. And salvation later on.

maybe someone can help me out here the story of the one who cheated and god killed there baby as a punishment which story is that????


good point Wally

Are you talking about Solomon (baby didn't die)?
Or something else?

I usually ask my neighbor this stuff he knows the story , someone cheated (david maybe) and God killed his baby or had him kill his baby as punishment... I am not really sure....

I must say I have read the Bible hundreds of times during my upbringing and I don't recall a story that fits that. However it has been years since I have picked one up again, and I am getting a bit old so I tend to forget. Perhaps it's time I have a good read.

Now this is driving me bonkers where is Zan when i need him????????????

Sheri, I must ask you question that has been nagging me...

...for someone that claims to not be religious at all, why are you so focused on these particular sections of the forum?

Usually you love your children no matter what they do. Even Jeff Dahmer's mother loved him. I heard her in a interview say she did. That is not idolatry that is a mother's unconditional love.

The Christian God/desses wants idolatry and if you don't give it you burn. No second chance. That's not love.
With Pagan Gods they are your teachers. The expect you to screw up. You are not punished in a lake of fire forever, you come back for more training. That is a loving God/desses. That is unconditional love.

How does this apply to the topic at hand??? You are more than welcopme to PM anytime and ask....Nothing personal

Love thy neighbor, as long as that neighbor believes the same thing as you do. Or love thy neighbor no matter race,creed or religion? The later states we can not love unconditionaly. It has been tried and tried again and damn wtf why is it so hard?

A couple of passages that deal with unconditional Love:

Matthew 22:36-40 - "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

EVERYTHING hangs on these Laws! That the Pharisees preferred legalistic righteousness over Love was why Jesus spoke against them.

Romans 5:6-8 - at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

In the "would you sacrifice yourself...." thread, I see over and over again, for my child I would die to save them, for loved ones I would die to save them. Very few (if any) said they would die for people that hated them. God died for us, even when we hated him. That is unconditional Love.

I rest my case. That aside......
It was Abraham. But you have to look at the context behind the passage. God had promised Abraham that his descendants would be uncountable - as numerous as the stars. Isaac was his only son. If Isaac were dead, God's promise, in simple terms, would not be fulfilled. Abraham knew this. Abraham knew God was a God who always keeps his promises. Therefore it would be impossible for Isaac to be sacrified. Abraham knew Isaac never was in any danger.

Perhaps. But you haven't got the promises of God telling you your child would live to have many descendants......

Regards, PA

You don't need zandore when you got PA

It was King David - he committed adultery with Bathsheba, and murdered her husband to keep the affair quiet. From that adultery, Bathseba had a child. God took it.

Then David and Bathsheba married and had children, the first one being the wisest King Israel ever had - Solomon. Full details in 2 Samuel, chapter's 11 and 12,

Regards, PA

love is based on mutual trust and admiration, love does not come without condition,therefore unconditional love does not exist with the ecception of love for a child

Thanks Pa I knew there was that story.....Pa those examples aren't unconditonal love , love god right there is a condition there are no conditions on love no body gets that more than a parent.....

Love God, that is the greatest commandment. But that's not to say that if we don't Love God, then God's not going to still Love us. Love your neighbour, that is the second greatest command. But that's not to0 say that if we don't Love our neighbour's that GOd won't still Love us.

This isn't a contract - God isn't saying, "you Love me and I'll Love you in return". God's saying "I Love you regardless of what you do or how you act. Now, what's your response to my Love".

See what I'm saying.

Regards, PA

First of all I do not believe God and Jesus are the same person. So God did not die for us, Jesus did (according to the bible).

As far as the story of Abraham goes, I do not understand why 'God' would even need to put him through that to begin with. And yes I do know the story of Abraham. To me it all just seems like 'God' was on a power trip...just playing with people's heads which is what I see through most of the bible.

I love you but you don't love me, therefore I will put you in a lake of fire forever, but I still love you.

I have often been told by Christians that hell is not a lake of fire, but the absence of God's love. That would mean that if you don't love God God will withdraw his love.

If we live our life ignoring God, telling God we don't want him, that we want to run life our own way, why are you surprised when you get to meet him that God gives you exactly what you've been asking for

If you don't want to be with God, is it Loving to force you to spend eternity with Him?

I see what you are saying , as a parent it matters not whether my kids love me or not there isn't a condition on it I love them period. I LOVE MY CHILDREN NO MATTER WHAT...The END.
Unconditional love is sufficent unto itself thats the great secret there it needs nothing to complete it becasue its already complete, It is already eternal, already limitless and already free....See what i am saying, this is not the love that is talked of in the bible correct?????

why would one who is unconditional love be commanding anything???It wouldn't its an oxymoron CONDITIONAL LOVE...do you see that??????

Unconditional love in the vulgar sense of the term though, as I pointed out, is also an oxymoron: it means indifference to the nature of that which one loves. Only if you are willing to expend a great deal of energy in making the object of one's love the best it can be--which does, of course, describe parents at their best--can one begin to glimpse the reality of unconditional love. Love means a desire for the beloved's well-being, which is not to be confused with their satisfaction on any terms whatsoever.

Now keep in mind that I am not Christian. However having it bread into me I can provide an argument for you, Sheri. As a parent we have to teach our children morals. And we may punish them when they do wrong, take away their toys...etc. The bible is, according to Christians, a guide that their god uses to teach them right from wrong. A life guide so to speak. However his means of discipline to me at times do not fit the crime....

good post!

The core message of the bible is simple...We haven't changed in thousands of years.
The bible is all things human, a compilation of life experiences. It is flawed at times but it is also inspirational at times, just like us. There are wonderful lessons in there to be learned about ourselves. Treat the bible for what it is though, a book. Nothing more, nothing less.

No it isn't Wally, maybe from your perspective, but I'm describing unconditional love as unlimitied, eternal ,free sufficient unto itself meaning it needs nothing becasue it is all things..... Unconditional love is just that there are no conditions.

Arty good point

Tengu Are we as parents guiding our children helping them aquire the skills and understandings and awarenesses they will need as adults to the best of our understandings, or are we moral legislators???Who defines these morals.. I understand what you are saying as I was exposed to religon in my eary years also , exactly what is religion teaching??????Is my question .....

That's very poetic, but it is logically meaningless. One-sided love (sufficient unto itself) necessarily means indifference to the object of love. Don't believe me? Okay...would you consider it a great compliment if you got a Valentine's Day or anniversary card from your husband, and on the inside the message was "I am sufficient unto myself"? Nobody else would either!

Wally i have chosen to be in a relationship that my partner is sufficent unto himself and vice versa we aren't in this to 'complete each other we are here to share our journeys enhance the others life not burden them with insecurities... You just aren't understanding where i'm coming from . and you see love as conditional......i do for you you do for me correct?? I actually would be greatly complimented to recieve such a card and actually had partnership vows something along those lines...

I feel I need to clarify this post. I was rushed when I wrote it, running off to uni. When Christians say that Hell is a place where people are separated from God's Love, it paints an incomplete picture, and gives the wrong idea.

There is a barrier between us and God, because of our disobedience to Him. That barrier we erected ourselves, it was not put there by God. Yet in His Love, God provides a way to knock that barrier down. But it will only be knocked down if we want it to be knocked down.

I think a large part of the misunderstandings about God's Love and the Bible come from a misunderstanding of the term "Hell". It's been discussed quite a bit recently, so I won't go too much into detail. When one realised Hell is not a place of torture and punishment, the message of God's Love rings out.

That's my opinion at least.

Regards, PA

PA thankyou for clearing this up lol Just messing with ya, pa I'm am so glad you are happy and you have found a way that works for you, What is the barrier??As a mother PA very much as Darkwind said earlier a mother a father love their child no matter what i am having a hard time with this barrier thing please clarify?????

My personal opinion of what religion is teaching? Haha I could go on about this one for quite awhile. To me religion is just mankind's way of 1) explaining that which they do not understand and 2) controlling others. That pretty much sums it up.
I have also had many many rants about morality and what is socially acceptable. And that has mostly been defined by Christianity at least in this country. Christianity has worked its way into everyone's lives even those who chose not to follow it. Our current form of marriage is done in Christian standards. Almost every legal holiday is a Christian holiday. Christianity in my mind is simply a control factor. Do this, follow our ways or you will go to hell. And that is NOT unconditional love.

I would NEVER threaten my children with permanent pain and torture if they misbehaved. I would never take away my daughters child simply because she had an affair (which affairs in general if you think about it are yet again another Christian concept, many other religions allow for this). What kind of god is the Christian God anyways?

Partial story or partial truth......which one is it?

2 Samuel 12:18) And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?



I think from the looks of it they still do.

If you are going to "tell the truth"........

Jesus did not come to take away from Gods law but to fulfill it. In essence He became the atonement/sacrifice to fulfill the letter of the law. The loophole gave us the defense to justify our existence before our creator.
One would owe a dept of gratitude toward a lawyer for pleading our case without charge. So in this way it would not be totally unconditional because one should be thankful for the provisions, it is, or should be our natural response to grace.

The Bible laws or the Bible prophecies?

Here are some of Gods laws.
Don't have a variety of crops on the same field. (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't wear clothes made of more than one fabric (Leviticus 19:19)

Don't cut your hair nor shave. (Leviticus 19:27)

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9) Have you ever done that?

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10). I wonder if Dr. Laura would like that one to be enforced?

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

If a man has sex with a woman on her period, they are both to be "cut off from their people" (Leviticus 20:18)

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

People who have flat noses, or is blind or lame, cannot go to an altar of God (Leviticus 21:17-18)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

Don't let cattle graze with other kinds of Cattle (Leviticus 19:19)

The Bible laws or the Bible prophecies?????

Those are indeed just a few of the laws under the old covenant with Moses however with the new covenant from Jesus they all became as follows:

Mat 22:37 And he said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

Mat 22:39 And a second like unto it is this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments the whole law hangeth, and the prophets.

Sherri

The message of love itself in the bible is contradictary by today's standards.
The church as I know it says that God's love in the bible is unconditional. He is all forgiving.
yet they also say it is conditional because in order to keep in his love we must obey.
A few verses from the new testament.

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one that loves me."
"He who loves me will be loved by my father."
"If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching, my father will love him..."
"If you obey my commands you will remain in love." (John 14:21, 23 15:10)

Now I look at the whole bible from a different stand point. I think it was all esoteric and in that respect I can see unconditional love. I could write a book about that so I won't go on.
However looking at it all literally I cannot see how the message is unconditional.

Now to look at it literally and as the churches I know teach it the message of love is contradictary in itself. There is not unconditional love because there are conditions. God is supposed to love you no matter what but we are told we must accept his son to be with him. We are told it is because God loves us and we must wipe away our sins. But if we think about it couldn't God do anything? Why would we have to do these conditions to wipe away sin and enter into this heavenly realm? No matter supposedly how good we lead our lives or what our hearts are, we must accept jesus to wipe away every sin from us yet even when we meet this condition we continue to sin....so we ask for God's forgiveness because it is said that his forgiveness is unconditional. This is all quite confusing isn't it?

Now I'm confused

Unconditional love is not love based on terms and contracts. it is boundless and does not require belief to be such.

Just my thoughts.

INdeed we see things very similarly i too see christianity permeates all aspects of life whether you are religious or not, thankyou for the clarity...lol

Exactly Star UNconditional Love knows no 'Bounds"
If i as a parent know know 'bounds on my love why would I follow a 'diety that has to be obeyed and followed???Irish do you demand your own children are grateful for whatever you have done?????Unconditional love doesn't have requirements not even gratitiude, we have talked on this before Irish...
Zan why would 'god' kill the baby for the mistakes of its parents let alone kill anyone for having affair?????.This to me is the saddest story in the bible of a diety that is Cruel and heartless......

Not at all, as a father of six (now adults) I understand your point. And as I said before it is just a natural response and if it isn’t then there is something wrong in the relationship, perhaps something that needs to be worked out.

So Irish why would i want to be commanded to give gratitude to a diety then???

If you were giving council to a neighbors child and you knew they were being taken care of by loving, caring parents that looked after all their needs. You might point out the fact that they should show a little respect and gratitude for having such. And as the bible is partly a reference guide to communication with ones Creator then perhaps what you deem as commands are in actuality the same advice you would give to the neighbor’s child.
There again the child might just take the attitude that you are just preaching to them and consider your advice to be demands.
Irish

Irish but you said a few posts above that gratitude is 'natural' Why would I need to point out to the neighbors kid to be grateful for that which he is already naturally and why would i if i understood that unconditional love is complete it lacks nothing it is all things anyways????? there would be no point of that if i'm telling him he needs to be grateful maybe i see it as something he isn't thus lacking thus conditonal to certain circumstances me telling this kid to be grateful this is the logic of religon IMO and it makes no sense to me...lol