Who really rules this world? God or Satan?

Let me explain. I have done lengthy research in order to make my latest book (for I am a writer) believable. About a man being approached by the Devil, and having the Devils side of the story told - the biblical message from his point of view. But that’s besides the point. What I mean is, in my long research I found many strange scriptures, that, quite frankly point to Satan being in control of earth! Because (it says) God gave him a certain amount of time to prove answers to his question!

“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, the one misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.” - Revelation 12:9

Jesus talking, said in John 14:30 - “For the ruler of the world is coming: And he has no hold on me.” This couldn’t be with reference to his father surely?

“Among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers.” – 2 Corinthians 4:4

“The whole world is lying in the power of the Wicked One” – 1 John 5:19

Here are just a few scriptures I found while researching. My question again is would the bible refer to God as the Wicked one? Does this go some way in explaining why the world is so full of violence and hatred?

And I found one more interesting scripture in 2 Timothy 3:2, which I believe, talks about what will come about, because the Devil is in control. It reads:
“For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self control, fierce, with out love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pried, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.”

Does this not completely describe the world we now live in?

And don’t worry, I’m not some religious nut trying to convert anyone, I just thought it would be an interesting subject to gain everyone’s view on?

(Scriptures taken from a modern day version, in easy to understand English, rather than art, thus, hither, and such like!)

of cousre, i do!

I remember reading somewhere that Satan will rule the world until the second coming of Christ. I don't know if it is true or not. There is both good in the world and bad so this is a tough call.

I'm not overly religious (Church of England...joking ), but I do believe there is a "god". And I suppose, you can't really have one without the other, so the devil, or whatever, probably exists, too.

As for who rules the world?

The world is full of sh*tty people doing sh*tty things to others. But at crucial moments of history, humanity's better side seems to prevail. Maybe god has the edge.

hmmm, I guess I like to believe that the devil is not really a bad guy. You know someone has to be the devil, because to have light you have to have darkness. There is a movie called bedazzled. A guy makes a pact with the devil, to get a girl. He gets seven wishes. He uses each wish to be a different person, to have a certain quality amplified. Of course, each wish backfires. He learns to accept himself, and wins back his soul. In the end, the devil is playing chess with God, because they are friends. When God turns around the devil cheats at the game stealing and moving pieces, but it is o.k. cause the devil is just doing his job. Lesson is devil is a teacher, and is only doing what God asks him to do...test man.
So I guess God rule, but the Devil is not a bad guy.

I can't bring myself to believe in a God or a Devil.
Sorry........

I do believe that there is a universal force out there which we can tap into.....and this force has positive and negative elements. Some weak people find it easier to be cold, cruel and negative - thus increasing the level - for energy cannot be destroyed........ Then there are others who give love & support and give out positive energies......

Ok, that actually sounded better in my head..........but you know what I mean..

Hammy x x x

Sarkypi, You might like Conversation with the Devil by Ray Wylie Hubbard. That song reflects pretty much what you have said.

The song reminds me of the Divine Comedy. Check it out if you can find the time.

neither of them rule because their actions are dictated by a shadow Government

I agree with the world having a force attached to it that we can alter and shape to our choosing, either through our actions or by magik, and that the force is kept in balance usually, all I think that is happening at the moment is that the balance is slightly tipped to the negative and that is why the world is like it is.

I actually have to tip in On the side of God vs The devil. I Have always believed that there is pure good and pure evil. You cannot have one side without the other.

Sadly for us right now our universe is the battle ground for forces on both sides. As to who wins well, God does of course...but the damage done form the fight can be seen all over.

I don't want to offend any one or cram my beliefs on anyone but I cannot buy a non-intellegent cosmic force.

Balance.......Without the term of balance there is noting in this earth seems to be right......Good and Evil part of circle of life....

They both(God and the Devil)having theire fun....

I've often wondered if God would ever forgive Satan and let him back in Heaven (if he were to change his ways). I havn't read the Bible much, so I don't really know if that would ever be possible. I mean with Satan trying to overthrow God and all......

God owns the planet, Satan is just renting. That's my opinion.

That's actually in an interesting idea...never thought of that...

It depends if you're looking at new testament god, or the old one...the old one was a really ruthless guy, who killed millions of people, and who generally kept you on his black list if you got there...

However, the new, trendier, updated version seemed to be willing to forgive people, whatever their sins, so long as you regreted them, and actually did want forgivness from a religious standpoint...(course, depends which person you're asking about that...but it's an arguement I often hear about why I should convert from athiesm, because God will still love me).

You'd actually think that, given mass murderers can repent of their sins if they want when, to my knowledge, the devil hasn't actually killed that many people...if anyone (just really messed them about) while God has supposedly killed millions upon millions, that the devil could beg forgivness for his sins....after all, compaired to God, he hasn't really sinned all that much.

That, also, never occured to me before, and does actually make me wonder who the villain in the story is...to me, the devil represents personal choice, rather than evil, and was cast out of heaven for going against god...not for being evil, but for going against the mainstream, and the 'order of things', most likely to stop the populace of the time trying to overthrow the ruling class.

But, as for who rules the world...well...since I'm an athiest, my answer would be neither...but draw your own conclusions. Looking at the way things are, if God runs the world, he's an absentee landlord.

It has always sounded like a father-son argument to me. Parents/Gaurdians often get angry with their children over the choices they make, whether its their sexuality, occupation, friends, or plain rebeliousness (is that a word?).

It's not that it's harder to do what's right, it's just not as much fun- Ray Wylie Hubbard

Thanks Gonzo,
I'll try and look the divine comedy up this weekend. It sounds familiar.

Here you go


The internet is cool. I found the lyrics to that song I was telling you about, Sarkypi.

Thanks Gonzo,
I liked the lyrics to that song.
I think it kinda fits with what I was saying.
I didn't have a chance to look up the Divine Comedy tho, I'm kinda on a new schedule. Gonna look it up soon...promise.

Fruity is back!!! Sugar, do you need me to come over and change your pampers, and tuck you in. I hate replying this crap, but in your case it is a pleasure.

Reese said it best earlier. Take her advice.

Generally all the things we know are balanced. Sometimes, the scales tip in favour of either party, but never to the degree of domination. This is what divides good and bad.

MY OPINION'S FOR THE NON-EXISTANCE OF GOOD AND BAD AS SEPARATE ENTITIES:

So basically, there's no seperate good and bad. 'Good' things do happen very often, as do things that are 'bad'. They can even happen at the same time. Generally good things, which sometimes are caused by us, and we feel like heroes, and the bad things we do, we normally have to find a scapegoat for.

For examples.. Did God or Satan influence.....

1. A volcano creates new, but destroys some in the process. Good or bad?

2. Earthquakes caused by the movement of tectonic plates, both destroy and create new. Good or bad?

3. Floods creates new fertile land, but destroy as well. Good or bad?

Of course, sometimes something bad/good happens, which turns out to be not so bad/good. And of course, something that is bad or good can always be better or worse. So we see good in bad, and bad in good. To me this suggests good and bad are the same things. We just separate them when we need to explain something.

If God/Satan existed, and made everything super great/bad, then we would lose the value of good/bad. So, if we if we knew only good or bad, it would be the norm. Logically, the only way both can work, is if they are the same thing or they work together. But that means they act for a joint purpose which stops either doing just good or evil.

Also, the Bible has an equal amount of good as bad. For example, one of the Bible's biggest characters, Jesus Christ, was killed in the most horrific means possible. This was to show that no matter how bad something gets, it always will have good, no matter how small, because it can always be worse. As it happened, he was ressurected, and the lesson was complete.

The Bible just uses characters, if you like, to illustrate the lessons. You learn more if you have a model or icon to work too. Million's look up to Jesus and God.

To me, the idea the Bible and Holy books try to convey is to help us cope with the good and bad. If learning this, you can see they are the same. The Bible is a guidebook to help us cope with life. The reason heaven and hell are in the bible is because, if you choose to be good or bad, you know what will happen if you do either. That doesn't mean they exist for real.

The only ways i think God and Satan could both exist at the same time, separately is when you get heaven and hell. One the devil's domain, the other God's domain. Both are satisfied.

'God' and 'Satan' and 'good' and 'bad', are concepts made by humans and personifications that humans use to determine the acts and roles of what see as good and bad. We naturally, have to try to explain what happens to us, when we don't know the answer. Speculate to accumulate. Books like the Bible help with this.

When good things happen, we say it's god's will or good luck, when bad things happen, we blame the devil's will or bad luck.

In my opinion, good and bad don't really exist, they are one whole thing.

Neither Satan or God rule this world, chaos does.

I was thinking the other night.....as you do when you wake up at 4am and can't get back to sleep, Well if your good God rewards you when you die by letting you into Heaven where it's Paradise ect ect, but when your Bad and Evil you go to Hell where you suffer for all eternity for your sins ect ect. What I was wondering is...if Satan is the ruler of Hell then why doesn't he make it Heaven for the evil doer's and reward them for commiting evil...surley then it would act as an incentive for more people to commit more evil? Just thought I'd share.

Hey I dig that Halo......................


I have always wondered that myself... Because you are right, if he rules hell, wouldn't he be sure to stock up on all the evil things that make it worth it to be evil in the first place?? That is why I don't believe organized religion, because it doesn't make sense................

lol, I actually DO think that's what it would be like, assuming religion is real (still don't believe a word of it )

Heaven: An eternity of praying...talking to god...living a life of self perfection, persuing one's inner peace.

Hell: An eternity of booze, sex, hard rock music, and staying up playing blood thirsty video games.

The fact is, since most things that people actually do for fun at considered 'sin'...I doubt very much heaven would be a nice place to be. You might live a life of peace...but what sort of life would it be? Can you imagine spending eternity without ever having a party, a lover, or watching a good contact sport?


I vote for

You may want to be careful what you wish for......

Hell by definition is anguish. You will be completely alone, no parties, no music, no fun. You most probably will have an intact memory though, you'll have all of eternity to regret your decision.....

Hell is nothing by definition. The word was applied to that meaning because it is feared by the so called 'god fearing'. I am neither god fearing, nor god believing, and don't hold a great deal of fear for the afterlife whatsoever.

Since both heaven and hell are entirerly hypothetical, I think that a hell that caters to sinners is more realistic. As I've said elsewhere, God has been seen to be far more savage and ruthless in how he treats humanity than the devil. If anything, the devil is an individualist, not evil...he is merely interpreted that way but the so called 'good' of the bible.

I still believe it's all metaphorical nonsense...however, if it is true, I think I'd rather spend eternity in a place of individualism, than under the iron heel of a saddistic tyrant who has slaughtered millions upon millions of people who's only crime was non-comformity.

Personally, I think God and Satan are like Military recruiters. I don't think either place is for me, and I don't want to be confined to heaven or hell. When I die, I want to go exploring the universe. I don't want the knowledge given to me, I want to discover it for myself. I wouldn't mind visiting heaven though.

Edited quote from site:

The word "hell" appears 54 times in the Bible, 30 times in the Old Testament, 24 in the New Testament.

In the Old Testament, hell is taken from the word, Sh'owl, pronounced sheh-ole' or Sh'ol; Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), Sheol, including its accessories and inmates: KJV--grave, hell, pit. It is interchangeable with the word grave or a pit. Basically, hell is a hole in the ground where bodies are buried.

In the New Testament it is taken from three words.

The word is Geena, pronounced gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin; valley of the son of Hinnom; ge-henna, or Ge-Hinnom, a valley of Jerusalem, used figuratively as a name for the place or state of everlasting punishment:

The actual place referred to is Hinnom, a deep, narrow ravine separating Mount Zion from the so-called "Hill of Evil Counsel" to the southwest of Jerusalem. It was formerly the place where the idolatrous Jews burned their children alive as a sacrafice to Moloch and Baal. A particular part of the valley was called Tophet, the "fire-stove" or furnace, where the children were burned. After the Exile, in order to show their abhorrence of the locality, the Jews made this valley the receptacle of the refuse of the city. As with refuse, in those times it was burned to keep down vermin, the obvious offensive odors, to maximize space, and a fire was kept constantly burning there.

The next word is familiar to most, the Greek word Hades. And, as with the Hebrew word Sheol, it is interchangeable with the word grave. There is a serious problem trying to designate this as a place of eternal fiery torture rather than a burial place, the problem being, mainly, that Jesus spent three days in Hades after his crucifixion. Since it is clear that this place was actually a sepulchre, not a furnace and that Jesus committed no sin to warrant such punishment, it would justify the logical conclusion that this is the grave. Attempting to insinuate that Jesus had to go to this fiery Hell to defeat it presupposes that such a place exists without solid scriptural evidence. Jesus performed his ultimate miracle by defeating death, not fire. In the case of Lazarus, it must be noted that this is a parable and is used in a metaphoric sense as with the use of the word Ghenna.

The third word translated into hell is only used once and refers to the place of imprisonment for the angels that are described in Genesis 6:4. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Enoch gives a detailed description of this place and can more easily be understood by reviewing the section on this site about the Flood. The word is Tartaroo, pronounced tar-tar-o'-o from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades); to incarcerate in eternal torment.

If one chooses to embrace the concept of an eternity of suffering in a furnace, that is one’s prerogative, but it is not a biblical concept based on a strong foundation. It can be speculated and implied, but there is ample evidence against it.

The Link

Just because we are bought up in Western society we have the imprinted view that any God must be the christian God. If we were born in Japan we would have more chance of becoming buddhist instead. If we were born in Saudi Arabia we would think of God as the Islamic God.

Just think of the ancient egyptians fanatically worshipping their Gods for thousands of years, and now what do we think of them? Just myths. Yet we elevate our modern Gods as superior and think of them having more chance of existing. Yet what is the difference between religions today and the ancient religions? Nothing, all have myths, stories, lessons...

And noone can adequately explain that if the ancient religions were wrong for 1000s of years, why can't we be wrong today?

I just bring this up because I notice quite a few people reasoning that if there is a God there must be a Satan (ie it must be the Christian God) but in reality there are a multitude of different Gods and ideas.

nicly put Void

about the heaven thing my feeble mind is unable to comprehend how it can be paradise....


lets say for example..this person (person a) is all good and gets into heaven....but longs to be with "person b", and heaven would only be paradise if person b was there with person a...however...person b is "bad" and goes to hell...therefore, person a in "heaven" is actually living his hell?

Void my friend, that is an arguement I myself have voiced many a time before Well said.

Of course, if we lived in a country that practises Islam, or during the time of the crusades, we'd both have been stoned for it

God/Saturn
Heaven/Hell
Good/Evil

both sides of the same coin, you spin to win, who can tell which way it will fall.

No-one rules the earth (theorectically speaking), we make our own path and we all have to deal with the decisions we make.

Its all to easy to blame our bad judgement calls of the 'evil' of others.

And lots of people to bad things. When we don't understand their reasons we automatically call them evil. But I think it depends which direction you are looking from at the time.

Well, w/ people these days, I'd say they act as though the Devil is their God. In this time & age, no one holds any value to human life , nor do they show much emotion or have any morals. It's pretty sickening, but very true.

I wouldn't say I'm a highly religious person. I have my beliefs, as well as many doubts. There are some things that I agree w/, but as many others, seeing & experiencing is believing. It's hard for me to believe something when there is no actual proof of it.

Who really rules the world? I dont think the world belongs to anybody. Since we depend on it for everything, wouldnt it be fair to say that we belong to it?

I'm happy to believe in nothing. Sounds a bit, well, lonely, sad, whatever, but that way it's easier to accept what other people think because I have no preferences. Well, truthfully, I think I'm a little biased against Christianity and the paranormal fascinates me but overall, I like to think I'm pretty openminded (or gullible depending on how you take it... ).

I was reading this thing yesterday that had the idea that all religions are just ideas created by us. None of them are at all accurate in the way they portray a god(s)/ goddess(es), their little minions, the beginning of the world. In a word, they are fiction.
It proposed that 'god', as we call it, is not a single being, it has no gender, it is not omniscient, it is a presence is the most broadest terms possible.
There is our 'side' and the 'spirit' side. WHen we die, our actions are mirrored onto our existence after death. If someone was bad, they become a bad/evil spirit, if they preformed a mix of good and bad, they become neutral (and now that I think about the neutral point...does it entirely make snese?).
And, if God is a prescense, likewise is satan. SInce the beginning of life, a 'battle' has been fought through us.... sounds a bit melodramatic. Neither can win the war, but each can win battles.
It also proposed that, if we believe something, then it is true (at least from a spirital view). We believe triple six is the devils number, so it is. We believe that praying helps, so it does. So then, any god or goddess or whatever can 'exist' as long as people believe it does.

Ok...may have gotten a lil off topic, but as it said (and I think I liek the sound of this it), neither rules as such, but are fighting for dominion that neither can win.

'You may have won the battle, but it doesn't mean you've won the war'

I think the simplist way to look at it is, there is no good or evil. The world is colorful, but people make it black and white; good and evil.

There is no way I can believe in God with all that goes on in the world. Sometimes it seems like we are living in a horror movie.

But then, maybe that's the Devil's plan... to make us doubt that there is a God, until noone believes any longer andhe has free reign over us all!!!!

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

Please don't take this the wrong way but...
how can we go blaming satan for the bad things that happen in this world? Can there possibly be a voice if every single murderers ear whispering "Go on, it's ok, this is the right thing to do"? I'm sure at least a few of them are doing it of their own free will.
Disease and disaster are natures way of controlling numbers. Face it, we're at the top of the food chain, so she can't use that to keep us in check.
Up to a point, all things happen for a reason, just some things are harder to accept and the point is a little foggier than others though...
But up to point. After that it's just a screwed up human race. We can't go blaming others all the time, though I guess we can't always blame ourselves either...

Just my rant

It just occured to me last night that, if such beings as god and the devil existed, they wouldn't interfere so outrightly.
I remember a quote from futurama -
'God' says "when you do things right people won't be sure you've done anything at
all."

God is in control of everything, and in the end, He wins. So I would not be to worried abou it. It's cool that you are a writer, though.

I rule - end of story No really - God allows Satan to rule but he will take control again after he's had enough.

Money rules the world, or economy if you want me to put it this way.

So is money good or evil ?

Money is simply an invention of the human race so it's neither good nor evil, but the way it is used can be good or evil.

People would do anything for money (the more you have the more you want) and that's what is called greed in the christian religion.

Greed is evil.

So the evil rules the world.

How about that for a demonstration ?

Xeno

What has Christianity done? -
It's all mostly historical, but these things have changes their reputaion (at least in my eyes)
1. The crusades: The purging of barbarians because they weren't christians. "They don't believe in our our god, they must be barbaric". Isn't there a commandment against this sort of thing? ie "thou shalt not kill". But then again, these people weren't properly human therefore it was a favour to kill them and end their godless existence.
2. Their total and complete lack of toerance for other religions. It's their way or death. Which would you choose? the muslim religion had no problem with christianity and allowed to christians to live amongst them (learned about this in history - people of other religions had to pay a tax. but still, I'd say thats better than death)
3. How in the middle ages it became more of a political leader thing than a religion and was used to control the populace
4. The fact that no matter what you do during the week, all is forgiven if you go to confessional on sunday. I saw a movie once where the man beat his wife and drank heavily but the priest forgave him because he confessed and went to chruch every sunday.

Like I said, it is all mostly things the religion has done in history. But many of them weren't particularly nice. There seems a fine line between a devote christian and a fanatic.

Rest assured, I do not go round criticizing Chrisitans. I accept what they believe, after all, if it makes you happy, go for it

Please feel free to correct or shoot down any of my ideas.

10 commandments
there's a little information about the commandments, specifically, "thou shalt not kill"

Well...if satan IS ruling the world until god decides to take over....I haven't seen any worldwide floods, cities getting wiped off the face of the earth, people being turned into pillars of salt, or people having to fight their way out of a whales digestive system under HIS rule...

maybe we're better off with things under good ol' evil

I just had this mental image of God and the Devil playing a game of chess as we go about our lives with them just looking on, like we would watch tv while doing a favourite pasttime.

I reckon they're the best of friends, and whenever one takes one of the other's chess pieces, somebody has to die.