I found this quite intresting and a little sad. Why do Christians have to mask Pagan holidays anyway??

http://paganwiccan.about.com/library/weekl...503holidays.htm

When Constantine needed to United paganism and Christianity, he needed to merge Ideas. Yet later, it turned into evil ideas of witchcraft in the medival times so the church decided to fully change the meanings of certain holidays to fit their needs.

Yes, there were evil ideas of witchcraft, but it wasn't the so called witches that were evil. First of all witchcraft is NOT evil and second, what jusitfies burning people and cats because they do not have the same beliefs?? It is a shame that they were so ignorant of Paganism that they had to hide the Pagan holidays.

Originally it was not covering-up religions, it was the merging or religions so both could live in better harmony with-in the roman empire.

Then why were so many killed during the "burning times"? And I'm not referring to Salem.

merging sortof, from what i've read, i'd interpreted it to be an attempt to sway the pagan faiths towards their religion, as they were still letting them celebrate, just a different special day...so it was not as big as a coverup, but not as nice as an attempt at harmony...

It was a way for the Church to gain membership while still appealing to the pagan audience. Keep doing the same ritual's you've always done, the church says. Now do it for our God instead of yours. Worship the Son of God, not the Sun God......

Harmony:
Assimilation:

Now, it's too late to change. Even if the church were to change CHristmas (for example), would the secular world allow them to dictate a change in their holiday festival? I think not.

I know, its sad. But thank Jesus that he preserved the truth! Praise be to Jesus!

Correct. What is also true is that many holidays are being secularlized now. Take sunday, for example. Not only was it a Catholic Church observance that many Protestants adhered to, it is becoming a secular rest day. Many (secular and religious) are shaping up to pass laws that businesses not open on sunday, which is really supposed to be (in Christian teaching) on Saturday.

usually the breakdown of all strong authorities in an area.

Some christians do try to eliminate pagan names, rituals, and symbols from holidays, althought the changes might only be little ones. For example, some prefer to call Easter Sunday Ressurection Sunday.

Nova good thread two words Ignorance and fear of what one dosen't know or doesn't understand.

Nova

Whats more sad that the fact that I was a Christian with no knowledge of this until a few years ago...that is sad.

I believe they did it to help convert the Pagans over. it would be the same thing they did by making Mary a center of worship. the Pagans had a Godess aspect to it. there were many similarities. I do believe Christianity was competing for converts and they knew they had to involve Pagan aspects into their beliefs to win parishiners.

I wonder why this isn't common knowledge now, but Christianity isn't terribly original.
If you read Beowulf you'll notice the pagan and Christian elements, and it leaning toward Christianity. It's actually very interesting. In my opinion a lot of the ideas in the New Testament were there to convert pagans. And a bit of pagan ideas were thrown in for effect.

Yel Is right, Christianity is far from original. Christianity is a smorgasborg of older beliefs. Pagans so to say were the heal of the boot. Pagans did contribute to christianity and the "burnings" were a form of control for those who did not conform. It was a lable that united the christians into a one belief,that condemed all others who thought different.

Paganism Is a just and true belief as all others.

Actually, that was all done by the Romans to make the conversion easier from paganism to the newfound state religion. Christianity's true roots come from Judeism. As do their true holidays.

Christmas and Easter were the only two holidays on that site which have anything to do with Christianity, and what fool doesn't recognize the total commerical and pagan saturation of them both.

The Catholic Religion is NOT, I repeat, NOT the same as Christianity. I am a Christian, and I think what the Catholic church has done to our religion is horrible and disgusting.

I am by no means comdemning all catholics. That would be silly. But please people, The Catholic Churc does not represent mainstream Christianity, even though the mainstream media would have you believe so.

This is your belief and I respect that insight but here is how others even christians see it....



and this next part is taken directly from a Christian website


Feel free to look into it...I am not telling you to change you mind...its only fair that you look at what others believe and know

Thanks

Because if you can't convert with words you will do so with the sword.

The Middle Ages and the Burning Times were not a time when they burned witches. The victims were self professed Christians who were falsely accused of being witches.
For many of the victims if they had confessed that they worshipped Satan and not God, that they were witches and not Christians, then they would have been punished but not killed.
They refused to lie and stated that they were Christians and loved God, and most said Christian prayers as the fires were lit.

The idea that these sad victims were not Christians is a modern myth.

Largely as a result of a conference of scholars held at the Vatican in 1998 on the Inquisition, in the Jubilee Year Pope John Paul asked pardon of the world and of God on behalf of the whole Church "for errors committed in the service of truth through use of methods that had nothing to do with the Gospel". The volume that was published yesterday are the assembled papers from the 1998 Conference. The objective is that these papers serve as an honest "warts and all" understanding of the Inquisition.

Reuters reports "Pope Gregory IX created the Inquisition in 1233 to curb heresy, but Church officials soon began to count on civil authorities to fine, imprison, torture and kill heretics. It reached a peak in the 16th century to counter the Reformation."

The news agency goes on to say: "But the talk at the news conference was decidedly more, well, spell-binding."

"A chart showed that Germany was where more male and female "witches" were killed by civilian tribunals around the start of the 15th century. Some 25,000 people of the then population of 16 million, were killed. But the percentage record went to Lichtenstein, where 300 people, or some 10 percent of the tiny population of 3,000, were killed for convictions of witchcraft. Professor Agostino Borromeo, the book's editor, said fewer people were actually killed by the Inquisition than commonly believed."

Catholic News Service adds that at the conference to present the volume, "Swiss Cardinal Georges Cottier, the pope's in-house theologian and an organizer of the 1998 symposium, recalled that the pope's idea of examining the darker chapters of the church's past met with some resistance inside the church. Some were apprehensive that opponents of the church, including a 'nonbenevolent press', would exploit the request of forgiveness and use it to attack the church, Cardinal Cottier said."

"But the symposium proceeded in the conviction that while the church is holy, its members are sinners and can make serious mistakes, he said. In the end, he said, the symposium elicited a balanced account."

"'A request for forgiveness can only refer to facts that are true and objectively recognized. One does not ask forgiveness for some impressions widely held by public opinion, which contain more myth than reality,' he said."

Antonio Borromeo, who edited the new volume, is reported widely in the media carrying the story as saying that the scientific rigor shown during the symposium would modify some popularly held beliefs about the Inquisition. In particular, he said, the "recourse to torture and to the death penalty were not so frequent as was long believed," he said.

He said that out of approximately 125,000 cases tried by the Spanish Inquisition 1 percent resulted in the death penalty.

Citing statistics on the number of women burned at the stake during the European "witch hunts" over several centuries, Borromeo cited one study that showed that fewer than 100 were executed by the Inquisition, compared to approximately 50,000 executed on the order of civil tribunals. link

Ummm...How old are you??? When I was a kid, the stores were closed on Sundays!!!

It was the Christians in my community that made the school district stop celebrating Halloween because they said it is sinster!

Ummm...It was the Catholics and Christians in my community that gave Halloween a bad name. Also, easter eggs, yule logs, decorated trees all cam e from the Pagans. And tell me why when I mention to a Catholic or a Christian that I am a Pagan, they basiclly run for cover. It's all about knowledge and tolerance my friend.

I know they wern't witches, but same difference. Imo that is what makes it worse, lack of knowledge. They were burning their own. They also burned cats, that is worse that burning their own imo.

Blimey that bad huh? and the whole halloween thing is silly to say its sad.....its a fun time of year for kids to go trick or treating....when I was a young catholic back in my hay day LOL I loved Halloween..umm I still do


As for running from you...hmmm cant see why...so what..you are a pagan?? eeeeppppp

The term Halloween comes from hallow and eve, as it is the evening before "All Hallows Day". In Ireland, the name was All Hallows Eve and this name is still used by some older people. Halloween was also sometimes called All Saints' Eve.

The holiday was a day of religious festivities in various northern European pagan traditions, until it was appropriated by Christian missionaries and given a Christian interpretation. In Mexico, Belgium, and Italy, November 2nd, the day after All Hallows Day, is the Day of the Dead.

Halloween is also called Pooky Night in some parts of Ireland, presumably named after the púca, a mischievous spirit.

In Great Britain and Ireland in particular, the pagan Celts celebrated the Day of the Dead on All Hallows Day (1st November). The spirits supposedly rose from the dead and, in order to attract them, food was left on the doors. To scare off the evil spirits, the Celts wore masks.

Halloween

I think we should all try to get the children back their day of fun, that have such fond memories of our own lovely Halloween day at school.
I think a campaign to bring back a Fall festival day with costumes would be wonderful.
I do not see how they could call it sinister when many, many churches have their own fall festival costume invents on church grounds every year.
Perhaps if the angle was used that it would promote cultural learning and tolerance would help.
Fall festival traditons of many nations could be included, and it could be pointed out that a lot of newer citizens celebarte the Day of the Dead, and this would be a good bonding time between children of old and new citizens.

Yes, BM, it is that bad. For the past 10 years or so, stating 1st or 2nd week in October, churches start putting articles in the paper about how sinister Halloween is. The funny thing is, is that the churches will have a "fall festival" that involves dunking for apples (another Pagean tradition), jack-o-lanterns, and orange and black balloons and streamers everywhere. Sounds like a fun Halloween party to me.lol

Pax - Halloween is known as Samhain in the Pagan ways...

http://www.celticspirit.org/samhain.htm

Bella, I think that Christains need to gain knowledge of something before they point a finger. There is NOTHING sinister about being a witch. Here is a link to some quotes from witches...

http://www.religioustolerance.org/witchcra.htm

I really hope that you are not predjudiced against me since I am a Christian. I celebrate Halloween every year and I have Wiccan friends.
I do wonder sometimes if there is too much predudice that "all Christians are alike" in some large Wiccan groups.
I had a friend once who did not know I was Christian come to my home and see a large snake statue, Nut holding up a mirror world egg, my sword cane by the fireplace with a bronze cobra head handle, and that my sons were wearing the eye of Ra. As she sat down smiling around at us she stated " I like the way your home is decorated. Don't you just hate Christians?"
When she found out we were all Christians she never came back to visit again and cut off all contact with me for a very long time.
Ironically she became Catholic and now though we have exchanged a few notes to one another, I am the wrong kind of Christian to be friends with.

Bella, I am not predjudice against other religions. My thoughts are that what works for one doesn't work for another. I tried many churches, but never got the organized religion thing. But, I have MANY Christian and Catholic friends and family. I am very excited to know that you seem to have some diversity if your life (Isis, Isis, Ra, Ra, Ra!! ) I think it is people like you that the world needs more of. Tolerance is the first step to peace!

I agree. Maybe getting the Fall festivals back to the kids is a great step for tolerance and sharing. I think you have inspired me to try. We will see what can be done for this Fall. I have a feeling the best chance for success might come from some latino parents. With all the controvery over illegal immigration right now, it might finally be seen as a comforting and welcome event back in school to consider at least and talk about in September.

Good idea. But why call it a fall festival??? The churches in my community already have a fall festival, why not celebrate Halloween??? When I was a child in the 70's, it didn't matter what religion you were, Halloween was celebrated by all. Witches celebrate Samhain on October 31st, but those festivities in my house don't start until 11:00pm or so. Halloween trick-or-treating use to be celebrated by all.

Also, my husband is Hispanic (he was born in NM and his family comes from Victoria, TX), but what does Halloween have to do with immigrantion???

The Day of The Dead
This is an ancient festivity that has been much transformed through the years, but which was intended in prehispanic Mexico to celebrate children and the dead. Hence, the best way to describe this Mexican holiday is to say that it is a time when Mexican families remember their dead, and the continuity of life.

Two important things to know about the Mexican Day of the Dead (Día de los Muertos) are:

1. It is a holiday with a complex history, and therefore its observance varies quite a bit by region and by degree of urbanization.
2. It is not a morbid occasion, but rather a festive time.

The original celebration can be traced to many Mesoamerican native traditions, such as the festivities held during the Aztec month of Miccailhuitontli, ritually presided by the "Lady of the Dead" (Mictecacihuatl), and dedicated to children and the dead. In the Aztec calendar, this ritual fell roughly at the end of the Gregorian month of July and the beginning of August, but in the postconquest era it was moved by Spanish priests so that it coincided with the Christian holiday of All Hallows Eve (in Spanish: "Día de Todos Santos.") This was a vain effort to transform the observance from a profane to a Christian celebration. The result is that Mexicans now celebrate the day of the dead during the first two days of November, rather than at the beginning of summer. But remember the dead they still do, and the modern festivity is characterized by the traditional Mexican blend of ancient aboriginal and introduced Christian features. link

Candy

Yes, I know about the day of the dead. Many of my husband's family members celebrate it. They also have altars/shrines in a corner or window to remember their loved ones.

I think this is a lovely tradition.
The kids could have their candy and I could drag out old photos of our family and ancestors whether anyone wants to hear about them or not.
I think the modern secular world could do well with a one day once a year dose of honoring the ancestors. There is way too much contempt in my opinion for people of the past anymore. They are put into such a no win situation when judged by modern standards, without them getting any credit for having made the sacrifices and work needed to create the modern world we enjoy today.

I agree. I also feel that since schools are so limited now days as to their teachings, I think that parents really need to step up to the plate and teach tolerance. And the best way for kids to learn is by example. It breaks my heart to hear people say "You have to earn my respect." One very good teaching of Wicca is "Do what ye will, and harm none." And, to go along with that there is karma, what comes around, goes around. I was VERY familiar with this one way before I found Wicca. I have never been one to seek revenge. I learned at an early age that it takes care of itself. I think all religions, as well as people have something to teach, as well as something to learn. I am a witch, but I also incorporate other aspects of other beliefs. I found that Wicca works weel for me because it doesn't tell me that I'm wrong for having beliefs of my own. I am a solitary witch and I get to chose what my workings will be. If you have read any of my other posts...My husband and I teach our childern other beliefs and religion. We also show them why we believe in. I am a witch and my husband is reading alot about Budda lately. The funny of the story...

We live in Texas and my husband used to be a bull rider. lol
We've come a loooong way, baby!!

I live in Georgia.

Who knows, maybe a few hundred years from the names of our children or grandchildren may be engraved on buildings that are used for people of all faiths and beliefs to share to pray in, as they may come and go as they wish, with the only rule being that all hate must be left outside the door.

It has to start somewhere and the South is as good a place as any.

Thanks for the encouragment. I don't think I would want my name on a building. I'm not trying to open peoples minds for a good legacy. I just want the world to be a safer and more peaceful place. This is what my Wiccan path is.

Nova very well said parents need to step up to the plate and model tolerance and a respect for diversity, I'm in california and the "immigration 'problem would be a great way for us to embrace and help our brothers and sisters from other countrys, Nova sorry to speak out on your thread but its absurd to scare milliions of people as these 'talks are doing, wh ynot make a way for them to be legal...

I understand that and feel the same. Unfortuantely people have a need for corporeal people to look up to still and I do not see any signs of that changing much for a long time still to come. Maybe it will though if more people try.

Hey SB, I was wondering how long it would take you to post on this thread! lol.
And why be sorry for speaking your opinion? Isn't that what a forum is for??

I do agree with you about the immigrants. This country as we know it ws made up of immigrants. Sometimes I wonder how this country would be if our fore-fathers didn't puch the Native Americans to their reservations. What if our fore-fathers would have embraced the Native Americans and built this country together??? Yes, I know that some of the Indians were a little less than welcoming, but would you blame them???

There is a thread or two on Immigration that covers a lot of those reasons.
Most of the kids in public school were born here though and are already legal citizens and their parents will more than likely become citizens also, or some form of legal resident.

The ego is an evil thing sometimes. I'm just tried of people being close close minded to the truth.

which truth would that be, novaceleste?

The truths about other religions, mainly Pagan, since that is what the thread is about.

well, "the truth" is people create their own truths.

people are fragile. to protect themselves, they create wonderful frameworks that allow them to biasly continue to reinforce the frameworks. When a change comes it is discontinuous. The most ardent will defend with greater and greater verocity until a "critical mass" is reached, when they will "flip" to the opposing position.

Machines will become more evolved than humanity. From a philosphical persoective, the move to virtualization in computing represents the evolutionary path that humanity needs to follow.

I think society just needs to be more tolerant. Pagans were around alot longer thatn the Christians or Catholics. I started this thread to show people that maybe their traditions were started by one of their prejuduices.

yes, and societies will become more "tolorant" as humanity itself evolves.

It is no secret that the christians (and the jews) aquired much from earlier cultures.

It is only when humanity itself moves beyond its deep seeded tribalisms that there will be more tolorance.

Man still is too animalistic in its thoughts though, so if the status quo remains, rather than having "virtual cultures and beliefs" as a part of a world society we will end up with the monoculture.

I am not looking for a monoculture. I enjoy the diversity in life. But, I have to speak out when something isn't right. I would expect I would be treated the same if my mind and eyes were closed.

nor do i desire a monoculture.

it is an issue with the limits of humanity thus far that takes us in that direction. the tribalisms lead to "conquest", to "dominance". This is so will reflected in dominant religions, for they are dominant because of their drive to dominate.

Most assuredly, you would be treated worse were your eyes to be closed. Humanity has a long track record of exploitation of the weak, niave, ignorant, gullable, stupid, et cetera.

When people and their societies start to see their cultures as the abstraction layers they are that are just "another way of telling a story", then all cultures are equal. So long as people live solely within the story, then there will be intolorance. This is why I say a good model for our society comes from computing. Ex) hypervisor allows many OS's to run simultaniously on one machine, all within their own "worlds", sharing the machine resources. Now extend this model by allowing the OS's to "know" they are virtualized on hypervisor and we would have a wonderful model for future societies. Imagine all the cultural tales freely expressed, and the common knowledge on how they map to a common set of prinicples described as "the human condition". Suddenly, the flavours are all preserved, but completely interchangable, and all equal in validity. Such a time is still a ways off though for the human.