You know, I realize you guys won't accept that the Hebrew word "almah" means simply "young woman" and not virgin. The virgin birth was a prophecy by Isaiah indicating events to happen within his own life, the almah was his wife, referred to as "the Prophetess". Okay, you may twist the Hebrew language as you like, but you can't make a double prophecy. Let's just momentarily disregard the error made by the fourth century wrioters of the n.t. made when they wrote in the Virgin Birth to pleasr the pagan audience the books were intended for. Let's use a little logic, shall we? Some wonderful other examples are things that just wouldn't make sense to a Jew at the time Jesus supposedly lived, died and was resurrected. Let's use some logic. First of all, the Jews have been forbidden to consume any form of blood since the time of Moses. Jesus at the "Last Supper" insists that his followers symbolically, at least, drink his blood. A practicing Jew would have run from that Seder screaming. Let's not forget the mysterious absence of Matzoh at that Seder. Then again, the authors of the n.t. use the term "rabbi" seemingly endless times.
http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/topica...urce=1&tid=4024


Now, when did this term come into common usage, since it doesn't exist in the Tanach (hebrew scriptures)? When oh when?

Let's go there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbi



So the term was first used after the destruction of the first temple, 40 years after Jesus died, and wasn't into common usage until 200 years later. It was neither used at Jesus's time, nor would his followers have known about it, nor would he have been called it. Not until Yochannan ben Zachai founded the Yeshivah at Javneh were there rabbi's. This is what is called an "anachronism".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anachronism


In conclusion, there are quite a few anachronisms in the n.t., quite enough to pretty much disregard the whole thing as a forgery, a fraud, something hastily put together hundreds of years later by a group of people ignorant, not only of Jewish customs and the Hebrew Language, but the very time period they were perpetuating the fraud about.

Intresting topic GIDEON


But you said in the title - why nobody wants to become a christian...umm not entirely true..there are lots of people turn to the christian faith all the time....reson being is because the igore the anachronism to them there are no mistakes...not everyone will believe there are mistakes...its all part of their belief...nothing wrong with it..if they dont believe it hold any mistakes, then so be it


As for me I totally agree with you GIDEON..but its my opinion...everyone thinks and looks at things differently isn't that what makes us all intresting in our own way???

Here in American the truth never stopped anybody from doing something. I have broadcast TV, so there is not much on. The station that comes in the clearest is naturally the Christian channel, so I turn it on once in a while. The TV thumpers don't research the stuff they say, they don't care if it is true or not as long as there is some poor fool is willing to send cash they are going to say whatever works. People fall for it because they need something that says there is something past death. Christianity is easy it all laid out before you and the first thing they tell you is don't doubt, don't question the Bible it as they say the gospel truth. If do question that is Satan putting doubt in you mind. In the Christian mind Gideon you are mouthing the words of Satan. They are not going to listen because then they lose their seat in the after life. I have actually see Christians cover their ears so they don't hear the words of Satan. To each his own.

But then this all comes from a guy that put out an offering of milk last night for the Fay.
It was gone this morning proof that the Fay must have excepted it. (Never mind I have a cat)

What the Fay didn't take it, what do you mean the cat drank it? Ohhh cover my ears!

Reminds me of when I was in college; some of my occultist friends (most of whom were not Jewish, but the Hagaddah says, "let those who are hungry, come and eat") and I decided to hold a "special" Passover Seder, with a little "extra" material (no, I won't disclose). There is a moment in the ceremony where the door is opened for Elijah the Prophet to enter, and he is invited to drink from the extra cup of wine provided for him. We opened the door, there was a terrific surge of wind, and the wine level in Elijah's cup visibly dropped over 1/2 inch. Believe it or not; I was there! Afterwards, we decided to libate the rest of the wine in Elijah's cup, we opened the same door, and walked out. We turned on the light switch, and the light, which had not worked in a year, came on! The man in whose house we held the Seder nearly soiled himself! Is this a sign that Elijah is coming back with the Messiah? Who knows? But we were young, and it was a wonderful, meaningful event, and manifestation of Spirit, for all.

Gideon

Interesting post. I even took in a new thing not previously known.

It has been my understanding that at the time the gospels were written that, that particular form of Hebrew wasn't even spoken anymore and that translations were being made some years after the fact. Some words didn't even have compatible words to be translated into. I haven't researched that one yet though.

However I think people are still becoming Christian and will continue to because no matter the contradiction it doesn't apply when one believes the scripture is God inspired and the flaws explainable therefore. I enjoyed your post however

I have to agree with BM on the topic name.


But disagree with the next sentence
The numbers of the Christian faith are declining.

Gideon I will PM you a few links.

Of all the reasons I am turned off to Christianity I think this would be towards the bottom of the list. However I will agree there are a LOT of words that were translated incorrectly. It would be impossible to get a correct interpretation of the Bible today. We can get very close, however the slang terms no one can guess. And there are some I assure you. Just as today we may use the term 'cool' to mean something good or fine.

As far as me personally...I am turned off to the cruelty of the Christian god in general, and the attitude of many of the people (no not all). The belief that 'you must be christian or you are evil' or 'you must be christian or you will go to hell' just doesn't quite sit right with me. There are good people in all faiths, why should just one deserve to go to heaven?

I agree with Zandore....Christianity seems to be slowly shuffling off the mortal coil....

Wellllllllllllllllllllllll then that put me in my place


love ya really & you too mako lol

So not one Christian here will defend the n.t. and explain why it uses the term "rabbi" 200 years early? I love winning an argument, but don't make it that easy!

Haven't you ever noticed that when faced with evidence that would make them look silly if they refuted it, the average Christian will run and hide. Only Irish had enough guts to even answer my thread of Christianity and Slavery and tags has yet to answer the many questions posed by myself, JMPD1 and Pontius Pilate.

I think a better way of putting that would have been "off this plane of existence".

Frankly, I was disappointed. I really expected a quote from some apologist website claiming that the Jews got the ter "rabbi" from the n.t., then lied about it. Or, something like that. But nothing. Silence=Concession.

Interesting Star i would add that alot of christians are waiting around in faith that god will be proven 'Real" I hear this alot...

Not one xian response?

This is an interesting topic and omission but it is certainly not the first the last or the biggest. The bible is largely a collection of works written 200 years after Jesus supposedly lived. I have a hard time remembering what i had for breakfast last week. I realise much was written before or at his death as well as parts that predate his death by a thousand years or more but large parts of it are based on what someones great great grandfather heard from someone.

pretty much my point. the xians like to believe that it all was written by the disciples and paul when it happened, with little change. the fact that the words and language used were from a time 200-400 years later means nothing to them.

Also to say that there is a problem with the christian premise is like saying the titanic sprung a leak or George Bush is a little msguided

I am posting this post merely to bring this topic back to the first page. I apologize for this, but this is a very important topic, and not one Christian responded. Is this too intellectual for the average follower of you-know-who? If so, you silence is deafening, and you have conceded the argument. I have seen post after post by you guys claiming that the n.t. was written down, word for word, by the disciples themselves, passed down to us verbatim with 100% accuracy, and that the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople did not touch one single word, and that the only thing that those two treacherous, murderous bodies did was to cancel out horribly disfigured and blasphemous forgeries like the Gospels of Thomas and Judas. Here is your chance. Respond to my proposition. Prove that the word "Rabbi" was used before the first Yeshivah at Javneh was established by Yohannan ben Zacchai. Prove that the Jews drank blood. Prove that there is no Greek word for "unleavened bread", and that the Last Supper was not a Passover Seder. If you don't respond to this thread, you are admitting that the n.t. was forged by the church councils at the behest of emperors theodosius and constantine, and there were no records kept, at the time, of any little god-man. Show where a pre-70 a.d. writer calls Jesus or any real person a Rabbi. Show where the word exists in the Hebrew Scriptures. Show me that you even know who Vespasian was, and his influence on Talmudic Judiasm. The majority of the Xian posters here appear to have gotten their knowledge of religion from their churches, and from reading those little "tract" books. Have any of you studied history outside of select passages of the n.t.? What is it you are afraid of, really?

Why should anyone respond to any hate group?
Wouldn't that be like Martin Luther King sending off letters of appeasement, tolerance, and attempts at reconciliation to the KKK?
Many of you hate Christians and want to wipe them off the face of the planet. I do not see any room for discussion of any kind with that attitude.
All I see are some getting cheap thrills off of bashing a religion. Thats about it.
The topic title is proof of that.

I belong to a hate group? I do not hate anyone, including xians. I am defending knowledge and enlightenment.

Since you apparently believe that xianity is older than Judiasm,

Your ignorant post

your opinion is baseless. If you don't know, why try to answer? If xians followed the teachings of Jesus, instead of what the various churches promulgate, there would simply be a lot more Jews. So, happy Passover (although you probably don't know what that means).

To go with your Your "ignorant post" link Gideon.....

Early History of Judaism, according to the Hebrew Scriptures:
Circa 2000 BCE, the G-d of the ancient Israelites established a divine covenant with Abraham, making him the patriarch of many nations. The term Abrahamic Religions is derived from his name. These are the three or four major religions which trace their roots back to Abraham: Judaism, Christianity, Islam and the Baha'i World Faith. The Baha'i faith is often not included among the Abramic religions. Also, smaller non-Jewish groups such as Falashas, Karaits, Mandaeanism, Rastafarians, Samaritans, etc. trace their spiritual roots back to Abraham.

Religioustolerance.org

1. Prove that the word "Rabbi" was used before the first Yeshivah at Javneh was established by Yohannan ben Zacchai. - It's a translation Gideon. DO you really think "Rabbi" is the word used in the Greek? Use another word "Teacher" and you get the same effect. (though maybe "Rabbi" is a direct translation.... I haven't got access to my Greek Bible at this stage).......

2. Prove that the Jews drank blood. - they didn't THey drank wine which was symbolic of Jesus. You presume to speak for them, that they'd run screaming?

3. Prove that there is no Greek word for "unleavened bread" - Why?

4. and that the Last Supper was not a Passover Seder - The Last Supper occured on the just before Passover........

YOu wanted the opinion's of CHristians
THough Gid, you are getting strangely worked up over the whole affair. If no one wants to respond, there's no need to resort to insults.

Regards, PA

it actually is rabbi, or more accurately rhabbi, rho-alpha-beta-beta-iota
there isnt a greek word for unleavened bread as far as i know. there is one for unleavened.

Thanks SLL

You're right in your assessment, and you've answered the subject of this thread in a roundabout way. The one thing about Christianity that turned me off a long time ago was not the teachings of Christ, but the Christian way of life. They believe that the Bible should be read and understood line-for-line exactly as it is, even if certain parts are obviously symbolic and some parts conflict with others. The basic tenet of Christianity is to abstain from ALL appearances of evil, which means a true Christian will not use curse words, dress in edgy clothing, etc. Their second greatest calling is to Spread the Word, which a true Christian does every waking moment, regardless of ridicule. And they ARE being ridiculed. This was foretold in the Bible, by the way. However, I have my doubts, and because of that, I've never been able to buy completely into the Christian, Catholic, or any similar religious doctrine.

Why doesn't anyone want to be a Christian? I figure it has to do with the rigorous demands on the conscious that the Christian faith puts on those who draw too close to it. It diminishes and demonizes women (Original Sin - which is mentioned in almost every Yahweh/Jehovah/God-based faith), and it holds people accountable for their actions. Even thought can be a sin that prevents one from getting into heaven - a couple of Commandments allude to this. Christianity, like many other faiths, demands perfection from mankind, and since mankind is imperfect, mankind will always fail. It's an impossible standard to live up to. I, for one, believe in a God that is a loving entity that excludes no one, a God who knows the kindness and the truth of what lies in the hearts of all human beings. God, according to the Christian, Muslim and Jewish faiths, is a harsh judge of character. If this alone doesn't turn people away from those faiths, the very idea that most wars are fought over religious beliefs is the final nail in the coffin. Still, people have to believe in something.

Why do we even have religion? I always figured it came about when the first cavemen wondered at the causes of thunder and lightning, hail, wind, rain - and why people suddenly 'stopped' being alive. They figured the dead had to "go somewhere," because simply stopping and no longer existing was unthinkable (and it still is, for a lot of people).
People are afraid to die, and that's why religion has such a strong hold on many of us.

Because I have seen so many strange things in my life that can't be explained away by earthly science, I prefer to believe that after death we do go on, but whether it's how the Christians think it will be is rather debateable. The Christian version of the hereafter sounds horrifyingly boring to me. Who wants to stand around an all-knowing being sitting on a throne and sing praises for all eternity? It's easier for me to believe that once people die, their souls become pure energy and go on to join a much larger nexus of the same energy, losing our personalities and becoming part of something much greater than ourselves. There is a force in our lives that protects us, but the definition of what that force is may not necessarily be the angry, smiting God of the Christian Bible.

All cultures believe in some sort of afterlife, and atheism isn't exactly new, either. Though I'm no devout Christian (my true beliefs are far more twisted than anything put forth to me in Sunday school when I was a child), I respect the wishes of others to believe as they do. I don't ridicule people for what they believe in. They have that inalienable right. Just as you or I have the right not to listen to their preaching to us. In a sense, Christians aren't very popular these days because they're simply annoying.

thanks. the whole point was, that the n.t. uses the word which was not really used until much later, when it was actually written. they couldn't call him "rabbi" if the temple still stood. Thanks for proving that the n.t. is a later forgery.

aRainbowTurned2Stone - I think you are taking the Bible much too literally. Where does not wearing edgy clothes come into it? While it is true many Christians dress relatively conservatively, there's no rule about edgy clothes.

I think you're mistaking Christianity with fundamentalist beliefs. Most Christians would say that, depending on the context of the passage, it should be taken symbolically or literally. Only the most extreme fundamentalists take every single word as absolute literal dogma. The image of heaven, where people stand around singing praises to God comes from Revelation 4, unless I miss my guess. Revelation is an apocryphal work, full of images and symbolism. I don't presume to tell you what it means, but I tend to think that it won't be quite as "human" as you make it out to be.

Only your point on spreading the word rings any truth to me. While I'm not going to cram the gospel down people's throat, I'm not going to ignore the command from Jesus to spread the news about his resurrection. I'm not the type to stop stranger's in the street, or tell friends over and over again that they need Jesus. If people ask, I'll tell them. If it comes up in conversation, I might consider asking them if they would like to hear my beliefs - if they say no, I'll leave it at that.

Pull back a little in your literal belief of the Bible.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

PA if you wouldn't mind i'd like to throw a question at you, you said the bible is not to be taken literal correct???Do you take the crucifixtion and ressurection literal and how does a christian guage which is literal and which isn't?????

Sheri - I think some is literal, some is figurative. Which is which depends on the context - what style is it written in is the most obvious (poetry, wisdom sayings eg Proverbs, songs, prophecy, narrative, teaching, historical), but why it was written, who it was written for also sometimes affect it. It take study of the text, the passages surrounding the verse in question, the context within the Bible as whole to decide which.

It might be pertinent to add also that what i decide is real or figurative may not actually be right. I'm human, I make mistakes. Though most of the time, the message is the same regardless of the figurative or literal nature of it. i tend to look at the concept behind what is being said, not just the literal wording of the passage. What is the author trying to convey? is the question I often ask.

Know what I mean.

Regards, PA

Do you take the bible as inspired???do you take the bible inspired literally or figuratively????What is actual text, instruction????? What is the wisdom by your definition, you said the obvious, so the poetry and prose are metaphorical, hmmm just curious....

Pick up a Robert Frost poem, for example. Is that literal? Is every image, every sound, every word you see absolutely literal? Or is the concept that Frost is trying to convey more important?

I do think the BIble is inspired by God. I do believe it contains many truths within. BUt I don't think it is all literal. I don't think it is all figurative.

I may be stating the obvious, but that's how it is.

Regards, PA

Revelation
Robert Frost
We make ourselves a place apart
Behind light words that tease and flout,
But oh, the agitated heart
Till someone find us really out.

'Tis pity if the case require
(Or so we say) that in the end
We speak the literal to inspire
The understanding of a friend.

But so with all, from babes that play
At hide-and-seek to God afar,
So all who hide too well away
Must speak and tell us where they are.
For you Pa..............Is it literal is it obvious that is the question.......

What do you think?

Pa I'm asking you who cares what i think this is about PA...lol....

We must remember the rules of interpretation of the Bible when it comes to xian thinking.
1. If it agrees with xian thinking (the xifiction, resurrection, etc.), then it is literal truth.
2. If it disagrees with xian thinking (talking serpents, etc.), then it is symbolic.
3. You just don't understand because you aren't baptized (why reincarnation is rampant in the n.t., or why xians feel exempt from the laws of moses even though Jesus said obey them, for example).
4. Ignore common sense (Why John the Baptist didn't die at the age of six months during the slaughter of the Innocents).
5. Follow the n.t. and disregard hard history (the earthquake, eclipse, rending of the veil and walking zombies at the moment of the xifiction).
6. Blame it on the Jews if possible.
7. It's a mystery not to be understood (how Jesus could be born at nazasreth, which didn't exist yet, and Bethlehem, simultaneously).

I didn't.
I would not give you the time of day if a clock was superglued to my face.
I simply explained why this is so. You are a hater, period.

Interesting how ones becomes a hater becasue he has an opinion, Its no secret that christianity has played a huge roll in the discrimination and cruelty that has been visited upon the jews......maybe we could start as a humanity aknowleding our responsibility in things to pave the way for healing.......

Since I am an ARIAN Christian then all those who harped in post after post over all of the wrongs done to them can start by appologizing to me in that case.
Send it in a PM is anyone wishes.

(You know who you are.)

I hate noone, even Christians. I forgive you for your closed mind and pray that you will actually find God someday. Your comment is very revealing and spiteful. I find it hard to believe that anyone who can post such a reply can have any spirituality, period. Then again, you have given the typical xian anti-intellectual response. Again, I forgive you.

Bella this sounds like I'll quit hitting you if you quit hitting me logic.....Change begins with responsibility for all of it........

That was uncalled for, lets try to avoid comments like these please.

I forgave her, although I reported her post to the mods as offensive.

Sheri. Do you know what an Arian Christian is at all?
Exactly what is it that you think I or any Arian Christian is responsible for that you yourself are not equally responsible for?

I answered this question you asked truthfully.
You just did not like my answer as to why Christians would ignore your posts.
So you ran to the mods.
If you do not think you will like the answer then don't ask the question, I would suggest.

I feel i'm responsible and I'm not christian not religous at all and i live a llife that reflects that to the best of my ability....christian is christain , its all the same thing.......

I didn't run anywhere. You were offensive; I reported it. Simple; easy. I am permitted to have emotions. None of the other Christians, even S.L.L., are quite that insultng. I forgive you and will pray for you.

When questioned if they thought they might have lynched the wrong man responsible for the crime, the leader of the group replied "A nigger is a nigger. You can't hang the wrong one cause they is all the same."

Which book guides you bella...the bible correct?????......Thats is harsh bella I would never think of something such as that......

Many books are useful tools. The bible is one of them. It is a book written by ancient people, some good and some not so good. It is a book and not my God.

Does a single book of some type guide you through life? I doubt it.