The way I see it - in the story of Adam and Eve, they were to live forever, in the Garden of Eden. That they had never sinned meant that the relationship with God had not yet been broken. Satan told them - you'll become like God, knowing good and evil. That's what happened.

Why then were they punished for a sin committed in ignorance?

The way I see it - in the story of Adam and Eve, they were to live forever, in the Garden of Eden. That they had never sinned meant that the relationship with God had not yet been broken. Satan told them - you'll become like God, knowing good and evil. That's what happened. Therefore.....

good=following God
evil=disobeying God

..... disobeying God for the first time, humanity knew sin, became like little gods themselves, and broke the relationship with the divine.

Even were Genesis 1-3 literal (which i don't think it is), that doesn't disprove anything. God told them not to eat the fruit. That should have been enough. It wasn't. Ignorance was no excuse.

Genisis 3:4 Satan says, "You will not surely die".

It was a snake who said that, not Satan.

Ignorance is no excuse, perhaps? I did qualify my last post with my belief that the early chapters of Genesis are, in my opinion, not literal. I could be wrong. Who knows.

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
This verse shows that your god did not make Adam and Eve to have an infinite life, but instead created them to have a finite life. When he told them that “surely you will die” if they ate the forbidden fruit, he meant then, at the time of consumption. He lied, but the serpent (it never says or implies that was the evil god Satan) told the truth when he told them that they wouldn’t.

If evil did not exist before Adam sinned, how could Adam know that what he was about to do was evil - how was he to know that it was wrong to disobey God?

But PA the fault in your logic is......how would they (Adam and Eve) know it was evil to eat from the tree if they had no knowledge of evil?

"Superstition is religion that has grown incongruous with intelligence."
--John Tyndall (1820-1893)

and would thereby free the masses to be self reliant and therefore personally responsible for creating their own living hell or heaven

Hate to “bust” your bubble Science101, but a search of Genesis reveals that nowhere did god say that mankind was to live forever. What god did say was:
Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.He was pretty definite on that particular point, “for in the day that thou eastest thereof, thou shalt surely die!”

Then the snake (no where in the OT and probably not in the NT, is the snake identified as the evil god, Satan) in speaking to Eve says:
Genesis 3:3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
In other words, the snake told Eve the truth and god lied to them! God even goes on to speak to the other gods (this was never edited out when the Hebrew scribes stole the story from the Babylonians and other Semites) and tell them:
Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Which shows that god never intended mankind to have an infinite life, only a finite one. Pretty cut and dried there…your god lied to Adam and Eve and the snake told it the way it was!

At that he said: "Who told you that you were naked? From the tree from which I commanded you not to eat have you eaten?" And the man went on to say: "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me [fruit] from the tree and so I ate." With that God said to the woman: "What is this you have done?" To this the woman replied: "The serpent--it deceived me and so I ate."

And God proceeded to say to the serpent: "Because you have done this thing, you are the cursed one out of all the domestic animals and out of all the wild beasts of the field. Upon your belly you will go and dust is what you will eat all the days of your life."

thats a dirty truth if so, bc they would eventually die, which they did.

here is how i look at it.

you are wise because you do not touch the stove bc your parents warned you against it.
you touch the stove, you are wise bc you burned yourself, and you know yourself the pain that comes with the act.

the second wisdom is superior than the first, because it exists internally as well as externally. the the beginning we were children and the best way to learn is the hard way.

I couldn't agree more! Some things are intrinsic. Like you pointed out above! If you were told by your parents don't do something because the likelihood of you getting injured/killed are great. You are not still going to do it. Are you?

Essentially, Eve decided it was best to dunk her plug-in electronic radio in her bath water.

Many of our pagan ancestors knew the language of trees and of the earth, and could communicate with them. Sacred groves were protected everywhere by custom in ancient Europe until Christians cut them down. Groves of trees are sacred, living temples, which support the web of life. Every system of enlightenment seems to require confinement, isolation, sensory deprivation, and stillness to receive the treasure of the Tree of Knowledge. Every spiritual path needs a teacher, and the sacred Tree, was perhaps, the greatest of all. We are moving too fast today, to hear what the earth and the trees have to tell us. However, a couple of hours of quiet sitting beneath a tree can yield unexpected and sweet spiritual treasure. During that time, subtle seeds from the tree embed deeply in the soul, to develop and bloom when ready. Judith Hoch, Ph.D.
http://www.church-of-the-lukumi.org/sacredtwo.htm

In many non-Christian traditions, a sacred tree is found, a pillar standing between heaven and earth, which is a living column of support for the skies. Trees replenish our atmosphere with oxygen so in a literal sense, they are support for the skies. Trees also anchor water resources, create habitat for every type of species, give immense quantities of fruits and nuts for food, and provide material for building and fuel. Many medicines derive from their leaves, bark, and roots. In acknowledgement of their dependence on their ancestral trees, ancient peoples everywhere worshiped in sacred groves. These old growth trees did far more than nourish people who gathered near them to celebrate seasonal rites. These trees conserved natural habitats and inhabitants from sky to earth, maintaining the life affirming connection between people, nature, and spirit. For thousands of years, probably since the time of our primate ancestors, trees were sacred and respected spiritual beings in their own right.

Why did sacred groves everywhere disappear? “Due mainly to the rise of dogmatic religions like Christianity and Islam, which advocated... eradication of ‘pagan’ practices, the tradition of maintaining sacred groves and sacred trees vanished from most countries.” (1) Sacred groves vanished without a trace in Europe, America, Central Asia, Africa, and the Middle East. Clerics built churches and mosques where sacred groves once grew. Christian priests branded sacred trees and groves part of the ‘satanic’ and ‘pagan’ practices of indigenous, non-Christian peoples. The ceremonies and worship once carried out in the forest became dangerous and illegal. People’s connection to nature faded as worship and ceremony came inside under the watchful eye of Christian clerics. Judith Hoch, Ph.D.
http://www.church-of-the-lukumi.org/sacredtwo.htm

This little story has done much damage to the planet.

Why did sacred groves everywhere disappear? “Due mainly to the rise of dogmatic religions like Christianity and Islam, which advocated... eradication of ‘pagan’ practices, the tradition of maintaining sacred groves and sacred trees vanished from most countries.”

These old growth trees did far more than nourish people who gathered near them to celebrate seasonal rites. These trees conserved natural habitats and inhabitants from sky to earth, maintaining the life affirming connection between people, nature, and spirit. For thousands of years, probably since the time of our primate ancestors, trees were sacred and respected spiritual beings in their own right.

then mankind was weak.. so god intentially made weak creatures?

I think so. God wanted willing followers, not blind robots. In order to accomplish this, man needed to be given the weakness to fail.

But PA the fault in your logic is......how would they (Adam and Eve) know it was evil to eat from the tree if they had no knowledge of evil?

Trees and nature are not sacred to Abrahamic religions; they are worldly and are part of Devil. They don't want Pagans to venerate sacred groves and forests so they cut them down and built churches in their place.
For me the forest is my Church and every time I see one stripped to bare earth it is like it is like someone has bulldozed my Church. How would you feel if you went to Church one Sunday and someone had bulldozed your Church? Where I live (southwest Florida) the destruction of Groves and Forests is unbelievable. If people believed in the sacredness of trees would they be so willing to stand by and watch the destruction. I know when the country was widening the road next to our ritual grounds they wanted to cut down our Grandmother tree. The Pagan community raised such a fuss the county back down.
The Tree of Knowledge is sacred to me in away a Christian would never understand.

But PA the fault in your logic is......how would they (Adam and Eve) know it was evil to eat from the tree if they had no knowledge of evil?

God lied when he said they would die from eating the fruit, he also said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" and then proceeds to say that he is the only God and he's the jealous type(of who?). He lied twice and the snake told the truth.

What do they say about Satan again? Oh ya, that he is the great deceiver...

I have always wondered why the Christian God constantly feels this need to test his followers. His first test of his people is in the garden of eden with Adam and Eve and continues all through the bible. Some of these tests being quite cruel in nature (the allowance of Job's illnesses for instance or asking Abraham to sacrifice his son, the plagues of Egypt...etc.).

If we continuosly tested our family in a rather cruel fashion to make them prove their love for us....do you think they would continue to love us after a certain point?

I honestly find this story and many others in the bible to make absolutely no sense at all and just proof of what kind of god the Christian God really is. A rather cruel and abusive one if you ask me.

If Adam and Eve had not ate of the tree we would have remained as monkeys in the trees and the wonders of civilization would have never been, in truth the snake did us a favor.

Seems strange to me that any God would attempt to keep Humanity away from Knowledge

I think you have it backwards! Unfortunately, Satan has done a decent job persuading many to defy God's message.

God lied when he said they would die from eating the fruit, he also said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness" and then proceeds to say that he is the only God and he's the jealous type(of who?). He lied twice and the snake told the truth.

What do they say about Satan again? Oh ya, that he is the great deceiver...

The christian god told Adam and Eve not to eat from the tree of Knowledge, meaining he wanted to keep them from knowledge, something that makes no sense.

...100% like a child with a knife in his hand.

The title of this thread is "Lying God and Truthful Devil" correct?


Perhaps there is more truth in the topic name than some think.