Roman medicine was rather advanced. Under Gaius Marius, the Roman Army set up hospitals and Augustus formed a professional military medical corps, granting doctors titles, land grants and special retirements. These doctors had to train at special military medical schools and the level of the science was not seen again until the late 19th century CE. Military (and civilian) Surgeons had a wide range of painkillers and sedatives to help in surgery (sometime else that would not be seen again for well over a millennium), including extracts of poppies (morphine) and of henbane seeds (scopolamine). This training and knowledge was passed over to the civilian doctors, who although they did not have the same general respect, utilized this information in providing medical care to the general population.

. In the sixth century B.C.E., Pythagoras had already suggested that the Earth revolved around the Sun. By the third century B.C.E., Aristarchus had outlined heliocentricity while Eratosthenes had measured the circumference of the Earth. Hipparchus had invented longitude and latitude. The profound thinking behind these theories would not resurface until well into the 15th century after the birth of Christianity.

Because the existing sciences and philosophies existing in the Roman Empire were derived from “Pagan” sources and contradicted the Bronze Age mythology of Christianity; the Christian Church label them as “worldly” and “works of the devil” and after taking control of the Roman Empire by the subsumation of it’s Emperors and their courts, began the destruction of the infrastructure supporting these sciences. In the first step of the destruction, the Church subsequently declared all secular medicine heretical. For the next ten centuries, blood-letting, herbal remedies and prayer became the treatments of choice for every ailment. With medical advancement at a standstill, millions died, perhaps as many from the treatment as the malady. Developments in science and technology were abandoned. Extensive aqueduct and plumbing systems created by earlier generations disappeared. Since the sinful flesh was to be despised, even washing was discouraged. Disease of ever type ran rampant as hygiene and sanitation was forgotten. The vast network of roads that enabled transportation and communication fell into disrepair and remained that way until the 19th century.

Book burning became commonplace. After the onset of the Christian Dark Ages, so much knowledge was lost that it wouldn’t be until the 1500’s that Copernicus would reintroduce the forgotten theory that the Earth revolves around the Sun. When Galileo attempted to promote the theory, he was tried by the Inquisition in Rome for heresy. It’s untrue to assume only the Roman Catholic Church condemned heliocentricity, Calvin and Luther, the founders of the Protestant Reformation, also harshly condemned the idea, insisting that as it contradicted the Scriptures, it was therefore false. Even as early as the fourth century St. Augustine had written, ”It is impossible there should be inhabitants on the opposite side of the Earth, since no such race is recorded in Scripture among the descendents of Adam.”

Historical research was nonexistent and what history there was, was rewritten to conform to the Bible. Modern archeology has proven that human history far exceeds 6000 years, but until very recent years, nearly all English Bibles placed a date on Genesis 1:1 at 4004 B.C. We now know that well before 4000 B.C., rich cultures already existed with well developed art, agriculture, architecture, city-planning, dance, drama, trade, writing, law, and even a few forms of democratic government.

History is replete with significant forward development followed by major setbacks. While Christianity claims to have gradually lifted humanity out of dark ignorance of a dark pre-Christian world, the truth is opposite. The longest and darkest setback in the progression of western civilization lies at the feet of Christianity.

Ignorance was crowned king when the great libraries in Alexandria in were burned in 391. Ancient academies were closed and education for anyone outside the clergy ended. The Fourth Council of Carthage, in canon 16, permits only Bishops to read the books of heretics in a time of need.. Jerome, a Church Father in the fourth century, reportedly rejoiced that the classical authors were being forgotten. St. John Chrysostom, a preeminent Greek Father of the Church said, “Every trace of the old philosophy and literature of the ancient world has vanished from the face of the Earth.”

Whether medicine, art, science, history, music, reading, writing or math, everything was to be brought into conformity with the accepted doctrines of Christianity. The laity and the priest craft were kept ignorant of any ideas outside of a religiously Christian framework. Even the monasteries, filled with educated monkish scribes, were consigned to only preserving works of religious devotion. All other types of literature were consigned to oblivion, hidden away or destroyed, considered at best meaningless works of the flesh, or at worst distractions to lead astray the pious. Worldly writings were thought more suited for the flames, as their authors were destined for hell. Every thought was to be brought into captivity to the obedience of Christ. (some of this information was extracted from a podcast by Dave Van Allen)

Now with this said, my question is, “At what level of technology would the world be at, had not this grasping, power-hungry and prevaricating religion attained supremacy for over 1500 years?

I've asked myself this same thing many many times. It is quite frustrating to think of all the advancement and information we have lost in the name of religion. And sadly to an extent religion is still setting us back. Stem cell research has been stopped because of religious people who oppose it. It is a very sad thing to think about.

Wow! Pretty powerful stuff Mako, great thread. Being a Pagan myself, it really makes me think, not that you have to be a Pagan to appreciate the thread. I hope this makes people stop and think.

A tradgedy the stem cell research it broke my heart that it is put on hold due to religous persepctives.......not to mention what religon has done to the human , turned humanity into a mess.......

It's oppression at its ultimate when considered on a global scale. 1500+ years of the worst type of denial imaginable. The possibilities of where we could be are dizzying.

5-Star post, Mako.


- Michael, who is going to the carnival tonight on Desolation Row.

Terrific post.

Who knows where we could be right now but I'm greatful for the free thinkers who pushed the boundaries of control and oppression and continue to do so.

the Stem Cell research debate has saddened me as well. I think of all the possibilites that could come from that research.....

Well, I have wondered about this too. It has taken us a little over 400 years to go from the Scientific Revolution of the 1600’s to the marvels of Atomic Energy, Computers and Space Flight of the 20th and 21st centuries. Since there was very little scientific progress from around the 5th century to the 16th century, short of some mathematical progress in the Islamic nations and some advances in steel making in India, I would think that taking the 400 years it took us to build on the base of the ancients and adding 200 years for the “Pagans” to consolidate and understand their base of science, that way we could have had Nuclear Warfare during the Crusades! Maybe even put a man in space by the 13th century. Who knows maybe we would even be headed to the stars by now!

A very 2 sided argument. Whos to say what could of happened ?. You can suggest possibly that we were so advanced that a war could of broke out and destroyed us all, due to our superior technical weapons. Give a leader like Hilter, or Stalin advanced weapondry capable of destroying the world. Chances are Hitler would of used it if they had the fear of defeat instead of taking his own life. Of course, then stems the argument would Hitler even exist in such a society ?.

Whether you say religion held back technology for the good or the bad can never be known. The best you can do is look at the world around you now, and either be content with it, or hostile towards it.

I can also think of how much better it might have been had Christianity not become the "big dog" and the kinder gentler Paganism with it's tolerance and even love of knowledge prevailed. America would defintely be a much different place and probably the whole world too.

good points!!!

but would we be out of natural resources NOW, if they had started using them 600 years ago? just wondering...

I've often wondered at that question; where would we be without the duel evils of divisiveness implanted in global society through the auspices of religion, politics. Sadly it can only be supposition and even that is mired by our subjective understanding of our contemporary world as it now exists with the evils firmly entrenched in every aspect of thought.

It's fascinating that science has to affirm it is not associated with theocratic philosophies, when it poses it's theories and hypothesis of reality. Especially when there are scientists that do attend to faith in religion or spirituality. Can one see the world objectively? A question in it's own right and posed in another thread on board here. I would say no and so to it is that one can only imagine how the world would be without a structural political dynamic or paradigm, that defines reality on the levels unseen. Have faith it is there, because wiser men have seen it. Take their word and believe or else! So say these same men, that rely on our compliance to believe in order to hold their station as the guides to the faith.

How bold it is to profess one mortal as others knows the will of god because god chose them to reveal themselves to! If god is everywhere why are we not all worthy of hearing the word that leads us to salvation during and after life?

Have you heard of Jesus Christ!?

Has he heard of me? In this world fraught with evils, how is one to trust the fallible sinner as the emissary to the divine? The Catholic church, every day sadly enough, poses that question as priest after priest is reviewed by parishioners that seek that wolf in sheep's clothing, like unto others of the cloth that rape and intimidate children to silence in the name of their authority under god! Wait until the scandalous truth about the Nuns hit the press!

We have witnessed the world as it stands today with the influence of religion saturating all dimensions of community. And while it is impossible to truly know what that path would be like without that that has affected our civilization since it's inception in one form or other, I imagine how the world would be if every zealot, every believer, every individual that claimed spirit to exist in a positive personal respect, lived that faith without institutions comprised of a collective of individuals, defining how the faith is to be understood and practiced by every individual under the banner of the faith. Sheep, free of their Shepard's, as it were.
I imagine we would all realize we were the same under the skin and no wiser than the next as we lived and died on this one home planet we must sustain so as to be sustained. I imagine god as the best and brightest of powers in perfect balance and so envision a world where each one that claims to know god saw god in everyone they know and the planet home as the temple where every day is worship, prayer and reverence for another day alive.

Would you shoot god with that 357?

Then why in the name of god would you curse god when you curse your neighbor born of god that you believe made all things. Why would you go to war with god , enslave god, rape god, execute in the name of justice and to send the message that murder is wrong , in the name of god!?
If I want to imagine a world without religion I imagine a world where all people every where hold a higher faith in themselves to make the world better than it is today. Some say this world isn't perfect but it's what we have to work with so thats that. And that is true. However it is at our peril, repeating our pattern of mistakes in history yet again in the contemporary reality, if we believe this is the best we can do!

There are other humanist groups besides religion against stem-cell research, Sheri
I for one don't care about it one way or the other. use stem-cell's if you want.......

I agree. I think it is sad that Pagans have such a negative image. And for what, so the Christians can be the majority. Great business move, bad spiritual move!

We probably would be far more advanced, I mean the dark ages alone would have totally been avoided, I mean how many years to technological advancement did we lose just because of that.

It is a proven fact throughout history into contemporary society; the god's of the old religion become the devils of the new!

It's not god it's acquisition and conquest in that eternal parallel that attends the characteristics of survival of the fittest. The best way to insure one survives them self is to eliminate the competition to survival. Adapt and over come , evolution (change) , etc.... It's the human animal that imagines to life all these constructs that repeat the same principle but with seemingly different titles or themes!

It's like that slogan I've read repeatedly of late; Pay no attention to the rich white men behind the curtain Dorothy! Curtain up.... Religion! Curtain up..... Politics. There has to always be one supreme victor over all, for there to be peace! Ever notice that? When people claim they "think peace", they are by and large envisioning a perfect world as they imbued with personal principles to afford that peaceful global policy. And so to does every person in every nation, of every race and creed do the same. Which makes for the conflict of people and principles in matters of world peace. It's a double edged sword to think faith in peace can manifest a peaceful reality when we are already manifesting the contentious atmosphere that is counter to peace by thinking there are only one prescribed set of principles for all people.

We damned ourselves when we relinquished individuality unto the moral jurisdiction of the whole because in the whole world of differences in people and experience, morality is subjectively personal and uniquely exhibited by the one, regardless of the collective ideal that defines personal character.

If we all agreed murder is immoral there would be no murders.

However that is not the case. We even give cause to murder by excusing war as the exemption to the rules that define murder as immoral.
As if to say; "War? Why yes, it would be immoral if it wasn't executed to insure freedom! " Okie dokie then!

We have to also remember that xianity pretty much killed the roman empire. one wonders what would have happened if constantine and theodosius hadn't developed the pretty much failed Nazarene movement into the now oppressive xianity.If, perhaps, Julian had survived a little longer, maybe his vision of a purified pagan rome would have reunited the failing empire. theodosius would have languished in spain, and never have been invited to come back to rome. what we have left today is the remains of the vagaries of several tyrannical emperors trying to rescue a dying empire by imposing an artificial construct loosely based on the teachings of "Paul". Remember that most of the original american colonists were religious refugees. what might have happened if columbus and his crew were pagans? perhaps, instead of massacring the native americans, they would have recognized the similiarities between the native gods and cultures and greco-roman and norse gods? Imagine how much richer civilization would have arisen by not having the xians slaughtering native cultures all over the world. The roman empire always respected the religions of conquered peoples, and their gods were honored in the pantheon. there might have been statues in rome of Kukulkan and wakan taka next to diana and Zeus. One imagines lunar colonies by the 1600's, with coloseums and theatres. maybe Dianic temples on the moon?