1. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:
The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.5

Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.6

Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.7

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?

When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.

2. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.
This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?

The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"9

Your last paragraph is the most important. Odds and probability. Throughout your whole post (which seems to have just been copied and you didn't give the original writer credit; hence the numbers in odd places), you talk about how nothing could live if everything wasn't in perfect balance. We're here because everything is balanced perfectly. Nothing would have formed had everything been not in exact proportion.

But let's go with the idea that there is a God(s). Why would the whole universe have been created, but only one planet with living, breathing organisms? As you said, all those other planets don't have everything balanced correctly, and nothing lives there. Odds weren't in their favor.

So in conclusion, your post did nothing to prove the existence of a God(s), only to support the fact that everything on earth just happened to be right to support life. I'm actually more liable to believe that we're just a mere computer program, similar to the sims, and some kid at a computer desk is controlling all of our lives.

[quote name='CongressmanReality' date='Apr 14 2006, 05:46 PM' post='1147679']
1. Does God exist?
Clearly God is not hypothetical - her/its/his existance and reality is self evident.
One would have to be bereft of sense and sensibility not to notice.
"What is the nature of God?"
However God does not need our arrogance...
So perhaps try and explore alternative question ...
"Does God Require Proof That We exist?"
and if so
"What is the nature and substance of that proof?"

You don't need proof there is a god...all you need is trust and good faith...thats good enough for me

hogwash words of desperate people trying to keep the idea of a supreme being alive while the religion shrivels and fades into oblivion

How the heck is that desperate??? So because I believe...do this make me desperate??

i'm sorry that was not meant for you BM it was for people clinging to the christian hipocracy

I am still waiting for scientists to research this.

research what, gideon?

"god" is a label.

we could call gravity a god, for example.

no matter what is found in the universe, somebody could call it a god.

perhaps more research on why people attach such heirachial labels to things? there is plenty of that.

God exists to the people who need him to exist...and really that is all that matters. Same for people who believe in alien life forms or other such things..... If you believe in something enough then to you it exists. And no matter what anyone else says....that to you is the truth. I respect these people...I just wish they would stop trying to convince me of something that I personally do not need to believe in.

very few reputable and independent scientists support the idea of intelligent design and the ones that do always turn out to be connected to one church or the other.

To say that something is "Self evident" is ridiculous I might declare that it is self evident that their is a monster living under my bed. But if i really went to the effort of investigating it i would discover that it is really only my friends dinosaur doll or something

Saying something is selfevident is just an attempt to stop people researching it properly so that they don't find out that what is "Self Evident" is really not so evident.

Lastly lets look at what the word self evident means. It is evident to my self. I don't need any more evidence to believe something. So what. Some one else may need more evidence.

Lastly you say that the universe is so perfect it could not happen by accident. What makes you believe that? Why is the universe perfect because people who don't really understand it say so. Also what is perfect. I find it "Perfect" when i can get up and find that it is a weekend and i don't need to go to UNI. thats pretty perfect. some people may think other things are perfect.

Perhaps GOD made the universe because he knew one day we would be able to know how big space really is to test our faith. It is only there to disprove his existense but u must have faith none the less.

Just a thought that came to my head while reading this post

Ref to aliens...do you honestly believe that life was only created on this small planet we call earth??? And out of the entire universe earth is the only place for the living???


IMO its ignorant to only think we are the only living beings here on earth..we dont have the technology to prove that there are other life forms throughout the iniverse...so this means we must not believe????It dont make sense to me as to why life is on such a tiny planet out of the entire universe

Who says that we are the only kind of lifeform in the universe. My personal belief is that God created the universe with the intent for life. After that the universe did it's thing and when the Earth was at the right stage to support our kind of life, God made it possible for life to become a possiblity. I think that there are different kinds of lifeforms out in the galaxy; maybe they are forms of life that we do not understand or just can't imagine they are possible because we cannot think there are different lifeforms other than our own.

Oh I agree with you BM. I truely believe there has to be some other life forms out there. I was just using it as an example. Different people need to believe in different things. It all comes down to individual paths and what that person needs in their own life. Other people might consider it completely rediculous to think there is life on other planets. Just as some think the concept of a god is rediculous. To each there own.

Well Said Tengu Each to their own

I've been over this before. Noone has ever proven or disproven the existence of spiritual energy of any kind. it should either exist or not, or maybe a better theory, like what happened to phlogiston.

Wolfssd, you obviously didn't get the point of my post. I was using the christian belief (not necessarily a universal belief) that earth is the only planet with life forms on it. Now, with that in mind, re-read my original post. It should make more sense to you now.

Congressman, thanks for your post.
I am not usually one to argue this kind of case but i'll make an exception.
I shall selectively cherry pick from Fred Hoyle's work as you have done. Firstly let me say that Fred Hoyle was a staunch Athiest.

His theories do NOT point to a designing god. He does point to a continuous creation of the universe. The universe continually creates itself. The 'Steady State' theory he postulated actually gets rid of god all together. How so?
The universe is eternal, it has no beginning and no end. It wasn't created, it was always there and always will be.
I have pointed out this in another topic. If Hoyle is correct then god cannot exist in the form you believe s/he does. That's why he hated and refused to believe to the end of his days the Big Bang theory, because it lets in a chance of First Cause, a god, a god that created the dot from which the universe developed.

These arguments of design or a plea to the authority of sacred texts as proof do not support the idea of a god. The arguments are simply too weak.
However if the idea is to provoke thought about how it ALL started then i will listen.

I read a newspaper article recently which mentioned Christians and their beliefs. The newspaper is of course aware that not everyone knows what Christians get up to. So they explained the Ressurection of Jesus and Salvation as something that is taught to Christians.

Christians are not Christians until they are taught the above. Discuss

This is why I have a hard time following one religion. Following one religion means limiting yourself to the beliefs of that religion.

Not being a believer in Christianity I really don't have an answer to your first post but I might have to say that, going by a christian belief, we were created by God on a planet that was capable of supporting life. For some reason God chose our planet to create life on and the other planets in the universe serve to emphasis God's desire for life. Each planet was a potential place for life to grow.

I don't know if this a correct thought following christian beliefs but as I said, I am not a big follower of Christianity.

That makes no sense mate...Christianity isnt the only religion that believes in a God...This post isnt really desperate no more desperate than non believers trying to "debunk" Christianity. There was no word of "Christianity" on this post...so the only deperate one here is you mate - what he stated in his post isnt hogwash by the way...its fact. Sheesh.

Very Cool Post !!

What a positive outlook!

You can tell you have had the best of both worlds Ramster by being brought up with your dad a muslim and your dear mom a christian...this is what has gave you such a positive out look ..you have your parents to thank for that You are always positive

CongressmanReality - it is against Forum Rules (read number 7) to plagiarise the work of others and pass it off as your own. Please provide source material for any material that is not your own.

That aside, while I tend to agree with the original article's stance, it is arguable that we are a product of the system, so naturally it's going to be habitable for us. If it was an all-nitrogen atmosphere, it is conceivable that we may be a nitrogen-dependant species, given the right circumstances.

Regards, PA

Edit: removed insulting comment - PA "Most scientists blah, blah, blah." The greatest minds on earth for the most part believe there is at least something that helped in creation. Ask any geneticist how long it would take for a DNA chain of ANY life form to just happen about with some ammonia and a strike of lightning. The shortest guesses on how long it could happen randomly goes into tens of BILLIONS of years. Also, what was there before the "big bang?" Is space infinite? If so, that must mean there are thousands of other people with the exact same DNA structure as me typing on a very similar computer on trillions of other earthlike planets. We are all connected. What you do to the bum on the corner, you are doing to yourself in a way. Where do the 28 grams go when a human dies? Why don't other life forms lose 28 grams at the moment of death?

Theres much better ways in saying you "disagree" with someone. Although i agree that theres a creator and it seems rather clear to me- you have to double check on some facts though...The 28 "grams" people lose when they die is inconsistent and debatable...actually its 21 grams not 28 grams...go figure.

edited to erase offensive comment from previous post - PA

Name calling is not tolerated..you can post without calling names

Thanks BM thats very true im very glad with my upbringing...it honestly has bought me to respect, study and appreciate religions more and cultures...its a very interesting upbringing and rather unusual apparently but i love it.

It's been said, toddgarb - insulting people will not be tolerated. Please refrain from such language in the future. You're fairly new here by looks. Have you read the Forum Rules when you signed up?

Flaming and insulting comments will not be tolerated on this Forum. Thank you for your understanding.

Regards, PA

You are very lucky Ramster Your parents have taught you a great deal of understanding

I don't know if you bothered to read any other posts, but it seems as though you didn't.

[/quote]Ask any geneticist how long it would take for a DNA chain of ANY life form to just happen about with some ammonia and a strike of lightning. The shortest guesses on how long it could happen randomly goes into tens of BILLIONS of years.[quote]

Those are their estimates. I may be wrong in saying this, but no one has ever lived for billions of years. Geneticists go by what information they have. As far as I know, they have no clue how long it would take a chain of DNA to form after it started. It may start off slow, and then speed up. But like I said, we don't know.


[/quote]Also, what was there before the "big bang?" Is space infinite? If so, that must mean there are thousands of other people with the exact same DNA structure as me typing on a very similar computer on trillions of other earthlike planets. [quote]

Once again, you seem to be ignorant of all other posts. Evolution happened by chance, earth happened to have everything balanced as it should to support life as we know it. Scientists say that evolution started by extreme odds. It doesn't always happen! I'm not saying we're the only life forms, but I'm certain that there are not "trillions of other earthlike planets".

[quote]Where do the 28 grams go when a human dies? Why don't other life forms lose 28 grams[/quote]

As you should know, every one of the muscles in our body relax when we die. So, anything that you're body is holding in, including waste materials, is excreted upon death. Hence the loss in weight.

vladdimpailer:

Just a general question here - at what point/stage in your life did you decide that God was a non-important entity in your life?

Yep, not sure if it's 21 or 28, but 21 sounds more like it now that you mention it. Also, my apologies for my misguided frustration and possibly insulting comments at the following post and others like it:

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"very few reputable and independent scientists support the idea of intelligent design and the ones that do always turn out to be connected to one church or the other.

To say that something is "Self evident" is ridiculous I might declare that it is self evident that their is a monster living under my bed. But if i really went to the effort of investigating it i would discover that it is really only my friends dinosaur doll or something

Saying something is selfevident is just an attempt to stop people researching it properly so that they don't find out that what is "Self Evident" is really not so evident.

Lastly lets look at what the word self evident means. It is evident to my self. I don't need any more evidence to believe something. So what. Some one else may need more evidence.

Lastly you say that the universe is so perfect it could not happen by accident. What makes you believe that? Why is the universe perfect because people who don't really understand it say so. Also what is perfect. I find it "Perfect" when i can get up and find that it is a weekend and i don't need to go to UNI. thats pretty perfect. some people may think other things are perfect."
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I think it's such a cop out by so many of these "experts" that spend enough of their money to get a doctorate and all of the sudden, whatever close-minded view they have is defended against anything that could put a dent in their argument. Einstein, Newton , Hawkings... all dummies because they believe that there must be a supreme being because the design of this universe is way past intelligent. It's hyper-intelligent, plus powerful enough to make it happen. Otherwise, was there just a point of dense mass, around which was not even a vacuum, not to mention time and space... Then, BANG, an expanding universe complete with K-Mart. Wow, what a wild thing to happen by chance.