The word "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim. Other sources, however, say that the word "Yehudim" means "People of G-d," because the first three letters of "Yehudah" are the same as the first three letters of G-d's four-letter name.

Originally, the term Yehudi referred specifically to members of the tribe of Judah, as distinguished from the other tribes of Israel. However, after the death of King Solomon, the nation of Israel was split into two kingdoms: the kingdom of Judah and the kingdom of Israel (I Kings 12; II Chronicles 10). After that time, the word Yehudi could properly be used to describe anyone from the kingdom of Judah, which included the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi, as well as scattered settlements from other tribes. The most obvious biblical example of this usage is in Esther 2:5, where Mordecai is referred to as both a Yehudi and a member of the tribe of Benjamin.

In the 6th century B.C.E., the kingdom of Israel was conquered by Assyria and the ten tribes were exiled from the land (II Kings 17), leaving only the tribes in the kingdom of Judah remaining to carry on Abraham's heritage. These people of the kingdom of Judah were generally known to themselves and to other nations as Yehudim (Jews), and that name continues to be used today.

In common speech, the word "Jew" is used to refer to all of the physical and spiritual descendants of Jacob/Israel, as well as to the patriarchs Abraham and Isaac and their wives, and the word "Judaism" is used to refer to their beliefs. Technically, this usage is inaccurate, just as it is technically inaccurate to use the word "Indian" to refer to the original inhabitants of the Americas. link


It is my opinion and those of others that they thought of themselves and called themselves Judean and not Jew, as the strict translation of Yehudim is Judean.
We agree that calling their religion Judaism is as inaccurate as calling Native Americans, Indians, since they themselves called it the Hebrew faith.
The actual religion known as Judaism did not begin until the fall of the Temple, now commonly called Rabbinic Judaism. - - Bella

I would be interested in learning more. Anyone with some knowledge about "Jews"?




Regards
Roberto Xanana

Edit by lottie: Edited to remove inappropriate link.

Judaism is the religion of the Jewish people with around 14 million followers as of 2005 [1]. It is one of the first recorded monotheistic faiths and one of the oldest religious traditions still practiced today. The values and history of the Jewish people are a major part of the foundation of other Abrahamic religions such as Samaritanism, Islam, and Christianity .

Wikipedia

Edit by Lottie: Edited to remove inappropriate link.

Ok, this is a question I forwarded to a Rabi and received no reply. I'm quite ignorant of the answer obviously, so that was not a good sign on his part, but here goes;

At work one day a co-worker and client were discussing heritage. I.E. "I'm Irish what are you?" type conversation. The client said, when asked her race, "I'm Jewish". Now, I always imagined "Jew" was a faith, not a race of people. (Think Sammy Davis Junior here).
How is one's race a Jew and not an Israeli, Irish, etc... like any other blood line that subscribes to a religious faith, but who's religious faith does not apply to their blood line!?

I imagined the answer this client gave as if someone were asked what blood line or race they were and they said; "Baptist".

the problem would have been solved if the new nation had more properly named "judah" instead of "israel", since the real "israel" disappeared and the jews are really the remnant of judah. I'm a Jew, a descendant of the people of Judah, but I am not "jewish". To most, the terms are interchangeable, anyway. It's not very important.

Jewish is a term that can be applied to describe a race, a religion, and a culture.

Bella, Jews believe the actual name of [G-d] is unknown but contained (encoded?) somewhere in the Torah. Those four letters to which you refer are only a symbol of that unknown name.

Rabbi David Wolpe has an excellent series of books on Judaism and the history of the Hebrew culture/religion/race.

Also, a very informative web site to check out is http://www.jewfaq.org

-mkl

I agree with this except for it not being very important to know when it comes to Christians who think Jesus was a Rabbi, or that Christianity came from the faith of Judaism.
Many do not realize that Christianity though not much older, is older than the faith of Judaism, and that both were the result of the fall of the Temple.

It indicates a blank period for religious literature being written by the Hebrew sects under Rome. The Romans seem to have been very thorough and efficient. If they did this well with a highly literate soceity it also brings up the question of the possibility that there were higher levels of civilization in Europe with their own writing and records that they could have wiped out all traces of, if few were able to write.

Bella, this is the second time you have made this claim--a claim that is completely false. The Jesus movement was a sect within Judaism that later separated and became its own religion. And, again, I ask: Where are you obtaining this information? Please provide your source.

Something interesting I found. How much of the BIble was actually written by Jews? THe answer might surprise you:

The Old Testament:

The first five books of the OT were written by Moses, a Levite.
Joshua was an Ephraimite.
The Book of Judges, unknown
Book of Ruth - unknown
The Books of Samuel were written by Samuel, an Ephraimite.
The books of 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles and Ezra are all attributed to Ezra, a Levite.
The Book of Nehemiah was written by the man of the same name, who was a Jew.
The author of the Book of Esther is unknown.
The scriptures do not say who wrote the Book of Job, but some scholars think it may have been written by Job himself, in his later years. Jewish scholars, as well as many Cristian ones, believe Job was an Edomite.
The Book of Psalms is divided into five parts: Three of the five were written by David, a Jew, while the rest were written by various authors from the tribe of Levi.
Not all, but most of the Book of Proverbs was written by Solomon, a Jew.
Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon are both written by Solomon as
well (or at least, so it is assumed - Ecclesiastes simply refers to the author as "Teacher')
We do not know the race, much less the tribe, of the prophet Isaiah. Jeremiah was a Levite.
Ezekiel was a Levite.
It is unknown what tribe Daniel belonged to.
The same applies to Hosea and Joel.
Amos was a Jew.
Obadiah, unknown.
Jonah, unknown.
Micah, unknown.
Nahum, unknown.
Habakkuk, unknown.
Hezekiah, uncertain, but probably a Jew
Haggai, unknown.
Malachi, unknown.

Total: unknown 15, Levite 13 & 2/5ths, Ephraimite 3, Jewish 6 & 3/5ths, Edomite 1

It must also be noted that when totalling the length of the books included, the Jews are even worse off, with many other books being far longer in word counts.

The Old Abrahamic Faith can more rightly be called "Hebrew" perhaps, or "Israelite", but historically not "Jew" at least - Jews were only 1/12th of the Israelite population remember.

Just a few thoughts.

Regards, PA

1) Judaism is over 4,000 years old.....Judaism
2) The Christian Old Testament (AKA Hebrew Bible) was copied from the Tanakh (a Jewish text).....Hebrew Bible

Actually, there is no evidence of the Jewish people or their religion until around 800 BCE and none for the Jewish holy scripture until around 600 BCE...No PA, Mose did not write the first five books of the OT, there is evidence of at least 7 different writers and at least 1 editor for them!

Who wrote the Bible?

http://www.theology.edu/faq01.htm

New Testament: Council of Nicea, Council of Constantinople: 100% Roman Catholic Bishops. Not a Jew there, otherwise they would have not messed up on such details as the "virgin birth", matzoh at the last supper, Jews drinking Jesus's blood, or Jesus's genealogy (both traced thorough his "step-father", Joseph, therefore, not the Messiah). There are so many goofs in the n.t. that a Jew who knew Hebrew would not have made. We have 100% no proof that there ever was a Jesus, or his disciples, or, for that matter, Paul. Why do you want to turn this thread into a discussion of xianity. Did you read the topic title or the first post? why are you a "team leader"?Noone asked about the n.t. the topic was about Jews. The n.t. has 100% nothing to with the Jews. The Jews, whoever they were at the time, rejected Yeshu ben Yoseph over 1800 years ago. If you are going to start a thread to discus how the church souncils wrote the n.t., start a thread. Is this the Christian Forum?
let me refer to a wonderful website:

http://messiahpage.com/htmldocs/personal-begin.html

and don't forget:

http://p069.ezboard.com/fmessiahtruthfrm1

I was going by what Wikipedia said.

In every thread on CHristianity you seem happy to promote Jewish sentiments. I wasn't trying to turn this into a CHristianity thread. I was just showing who wrote the books of the Bible (thanks Mako - I should have added that it's generally accepted that Moses wrote the first 5 books). So ignore the second part of my post then - I'm not out on a vendetta against the Jews. As I said, Jew's made up only 1/12th of the Israelite nation.

THough maybe the NT information was erroneous to this thread. It was 2am when I posted it, I was tired and not really paying attention to the details too much. If you would like, I can go back and edit the NT info out.

I am a Forum Leader because Saruman asked me to be one. If you wish to discuss that decision further, feel free to PM myself or Saruman.

Regards, PA

Never fear, a jew is hear!

The Old Testament:

The first five books of the OT were written by Moses, a Levite.
Joshua was an Ephraimite.
The Book of Judges, unknown
Book of Ruth - unknown
The Books of Samuel were written by Samuel, an Ephraimite.
The books of 1 & 2 Kings, 1 & 2 Chronicles and Ezra are all attributed to Ezra, a Levite.
The Book of Nehemiah was written by the man of the same name, who was a Jew.
The author of the Book of Esther is unknown.
The scriptures do not say who wrote the Book of Job, but some scholars think it may have been written by Job himself, in his later years. Jewish scholars, as well as many Cristian ones, believe Job was an Edomite.
The Book of Psalms is divided into five parts: Three of the five were written by David, a Jew, while the rest were written by various authors from the tribe of Levi.
Not all, but most of the Book of Proverbs was written by Solomon, a Jew.
Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon are both written by Solomon as
well (or at least, so it is assumed - Ecclesiastes simply refers to the author as "Teacher')
We do not know the race, much less the tribe, of the prophet Isaiah. Jeremiah was a Levite.
Ezekiel was a Levite.
It is unknown what tribe Daniel belonged to.
The same applies to Hosea and Joel.
Amos was a Jew.
Obadiah, unknown.
Jonah, unknown.
Micah, unknown.
Nahum, unknown.
Habakkuk, unknown.
Hezekiah, uncertain, but probably a Jew
Haggai, unknown.
Malachi, unknown.

All Jews there! Trust me.

Really? How can someone belong to the tribe of Levi and Judah? Or Ephraim or Benjamin for that matter....

Misinformation. Note that geneticists have found blood of some of the lost tribes in... odd places.

Interesting however my family refers to themselves and eachothers as Jews practicing Judiaism.

By whom? Consensus amongst scholars is that the Pentateuch was written by more than one author (Documentary Hypothesis) over a considerable period of time and finally edited by a redactor.

Sean

With respect MS it might help some here if you had a link to the information.

I provided the source in the link.
Check it please.

I am not making a false claim.
It is fact.
The Christian faith began before the faith of Judaism.

Before Judaism as a faith was created Judean (Jew) was a term that only applied to tribal membership or nationality and had nothing to do with being a member of a religion.

Before Rabbinic Judaism there was no religion called Judaism.

No, I defend Judaism against attack. That is something different. I have seen you attempt to turn other threads into discussions about xianity.
I will give an example:
http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...opic=67013&st=0
where you said :


Actually, Xianity as a whole has been on a vendetta against the Jews, and anyone else in their way, for about 1700 years. Isn't it about time that the rest of the world defends itself from the onslaught of Xianity?



<a href="http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10/how-many-people-have-been-killed-by.php" target="_blank">http://exchristian.net/exchristian/2002/10...n-killed-by.php</a>



FYI: words change. You are claiming that "Jews" are only one tribe. This is akin to refusing to call citizens of the usa "Americans" because they live in "North America" and not the entire thing. Judah was the name of the southern kingdom, and included members of several different tribes, just like the northern kindom of israel included members of various tribes. the Jews of today are descendents of the KINGDOM OF JUDAH, not the Tribe of Judah.
yes, it was misplaced on this thread, IMHO.

Honestly, I thought only Orthodox jews insisted that the five books of Moses were written by moses. Since it includes his death, this is highly unlikely.

As fro a link, you'll have to trust me: at the time of all the prophets, Isreal was 100% Jewish, like some middle eastern countrys are 100% Islamic

I understand what you are saying MS it is just that many here (my self included) will treat a post like that as an opinion regardless how truthful it is.

Ok folks. It has been fairly obvious that Gideon and I are not each other's number one fan on this board, so the fact that we are both stating the same thing and can site other sources as well should be a really big clue that we are both just stating the historical facts.

Jew meant a citizen of the Kingdom of Judah and not the member of a religious faith until Rabbinic Judaism was established.

Elijah, Elisha, Hosea, and Amos for example, were not Judean (Jews).
The were citizens of the northern kingdom of Isreal.


I think the way the meanings for words change over time is one of many reasons why a strict literal interpretation of the words in the bible is not only a bad idea but actually an impossibility, since unless we were from that time and new the meanings different words meant to the specific group of people a message was addressed to, there is no way that we can be precisely sure that we have the absolute correct intent of some of the messages themselves.

We can only use what we know and our hearts to do the best we can to attempt to understand most ancient texts of all ancient people.

Jews (Hebrew: יהודים, Yehudim) are followers of Judaism or, more generally, members of the Jewish people (also known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of Israel), an ethno-religious group descended from the ancient Israelites and from converts who joined their religion. The term also includes those who have undergone an officially recognized formal process of religious conversion to Judaism.

SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

Jews see themselves as the physical and spiritual descendants of Abraham, through his son Isaac and grandson Jacob.

*Even though Isaac was younger than Ishmael, and Jacob was younger than Esau, the Jews consider themselves the ones chosen by God as the legitimate heirs of the covenant and promises God made to Abraham (Gen 17:20-22; 22:16-18; 27:1-45; 49:1-12)----by Prof. Felix Just, S.J.

Bella, the following is from your own source:

Origins of the Words "Jew" and "Judaism"

The original name for the people we now call Jews was Hebrews. The word "Hebrew" (in Hebrew, "Ivri") is first used in the Torah to describe Abraham (Gen. 14:13). The word is apparently derived from the name Eber, one of Abraham's ancestors. Another tradition teaches that the word comes from the word "eyver," which means "the other side," referring to the fact that Abraham came from the other side of the Euphrates, or referring to the fact Abraham was separated from the other nations morally and spiritually.

Another name used for the people is Children of Israel or Israelites, which refers to the fact that the people are descendants of Jacob, who was also called Israel.

The word "Jew" (in Hebrew, "Yehudi") is derived from the name Judah, which was the name of one of Jacob's twelve sons. Judah was the ancestor of one of the tribes of Israel, which was named after him. Likewise, the word Judaism literally means "Judah-ism," that is, the religion of the Yehudim. Other sources, however, say that the word "Yehudim" means "People of G-d," because the first three letters of "Yehudah" are the same as the first three letters of G-d's four-letter name.

SOURCE
http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm#Jew



Absolutely false! How can the child be older than the parent?

90's - Christianity gradually separates from Judaism, and emerges as independent religion; local sporadic persecutions of Christians in the Roman Empire slowly increase, esp. in Asia Minor under Emperors Domitian and Trajan--by Prof. Felix Just, S.J.

Sean

There was no religion called Judaism before the fall of the Temple. None. Not a single reference in any ancient text that a religion was called by this name at all.

The religion of Judaism follows this timeline.


66-73 First Judean Revolt against Rome.
69 Vespasian gives Yochanan ben Zakkai permission to establish a Jewish center for study at Yavneh that will become the hub for rabbinic Judaism.
70 Destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple,
73 Last stand of Jews at Masada.
ca. 90-100 Gamaliel II excludes sectarians (including Christians) from the synagogues.
ca. 90-150 Writings (third and last division of Jewish Scriptures) discussed and accepted as sacred scripture.
114-117 Jewish Revolts against Rome in Cyprus, Egypt and Cyrene. The Great Synagogue and the Great Library in Alexandria are destroyed as well as the entire Jeiwsh community of Cyprus. Afterwards, Jews were forbidden on Cyprus.
120-135 Rabbi Akiva active in consolidating Rabbinic Judaism.
132-135 Bar Kokhba rebellion (Second Jewish Revolt). Roman forces kill an estimated half a million Jews and destroy 985 villages and 50 fortresses.
136 Hadrian renames Jerusalem Aelia Capatolina and builds a Pagan temple over the the site of the Second Temple. He also forbids Jews to dwell there. Judea (the southern portion of what is now called the West Bank) was renamed Palaestina in an attempt to minimize Jewish identification with the land of Israel.

The religion of Christianity follows this timeline

62 {Being therefore this kind of person [i.e., a heartless Sadducee], Ananus,
thinking that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and
Albinus was still on his way, called a meeting [literally, "sanhedrin"] of
judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah,
James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had
transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned.}
[JA20.9.1,Marginal Jew,p.57]
62 Nero kills his wife Octavia and marries Poppaea Sabina
64 Great fire of Rome, started by Nero and blamed on Christians, {Therefore to
squelch the rumor , Nero
created scapegoats and subjected to the most refined tortures those whom
the common people called "Christians," [a group] hated for their abominable
crimes. Their name comes from Christ, who, during the reign of Tiberius, had
been executed by the procurator Pontius Pilate. Suppressed for the moment,
the deadly superstition broke out again, not only in Judea, the land which
originated this evil, but also in the city of Rome, where all sorts of
horrendous and shameful practices from every part of the world converge
and are fervently cultivated.} [Tacitus Annals 15.44;Marginal


No matter how you look at it Christianity was already widespread by 64 A.D. since they were scapegoats for Nero in Rome in 64 B.C.
The first Judean (Jewish) revolt did not even occur until 66 A.D.

Christianity did not break off from Judaism, it developed out of the Hebrew faith of the Nazarenes.
Judaism developed out of the Hebrew faith of the Pharisees.

The fact that there is so much bad information published is why I posted the topic.
The Jews do not hide at all that their new religion was founded after the Temple fall by the Pharisees, but for reasons unknown a great deal is done to hide that Christianity was founded by the Nazarenes even to the extent that it is a common claim that Christianity broke off from the Judaism.

There was no town of Nazareth and there was no religion of Judaism before the fall of the Temple to the Romans.
There was a Hebrew faith called Nazarene whose main religious center was in the Galilee area.

GIDEON MAGE - I have edited my earlier post to exclude New Testament references. Sorry for the offence.

I have also edited your most recent post in this thread slightly. I made it clear that if you wished to discuss my position on this forum, please do it via PM.

Thank you for your understanding.

Regards, PA

Oh, so explain why Jesus was a Jew, then!

It was his nationality, his citizenship, Judean (Jew).
His religion was Hebrew.
His Hebrew denomination was Nazorene.
His name is Yeshua (Joshua) ben Yoseph.

For those reading this thread ... PLEASE BEWARE THE INFORMATION POSTED BY BELLA! It has absolutely no basis in fact. She has made absurd claim after absurd claim--Christianity is older than Judaism, Pharisees created Judaism etc. Completely false!!! She claims to wish to dispel false information floating about the internet ... but succeeds only in propagating such information!

The Emergence of Judaism (Fordham University)
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/jewish/jewi...%20of%20Judaism

Christianity (Washington State University)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/CHRIST/CHRIST.HTM

Hebrew History and Culture to the Diaspora (Washington State University)
http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/HEBREWS/HEBREWS.HTM

Sean

its all in how much meaning you attatch the the words "jew" and "judaism." if one puts a purely religious meaning on the words, then bella is correct, somewhat. the first century greek words one normally finds translated as jew and judaism are geographical rather than religious. Judean or "one of Judea" would be more accurate than jew and "behavior (not just religious) typical of Judeans" would get the point across better than Judaism. i would be willing to bet the same would go for the hebrew equivilents of the two words. my guess is that with each generation that would never set foot in Judea was born, the words lost some of their geographical meaning until we were left with the purely religious terms we have now.
if you want a source, i found the stuff about the greek words in the second edition of A Social-Science Commentary on the Synoptic Gospels written by Bruce Malina and John Pilch. everything after that im just making an educated guess on.

Bella can spin her assertions as she pleases, that's why there is an inalienable right to Free Speech. My 35 years of education has taught me differently but I don't find what she argues as offensive in any way.

-mkl, who was famous long ago/For playing the electric violin/On Desolation Row...

Ah! A Jewish thread!

Don't worry, an Israeli who speaks hebrew is here.

I'll try to answer few of the questions raised here.

1. the matter of jews being a "race"
Jews are not a race... that is, there is no "Jewish" race which is different from white people, african people, and asian people.
Jews however are an ethnic group.
Judaism itself states that a person cannot undo his jewishness, and even if he does convert to another religion he remains jewish in the eyes of the jewish community (and in the eyes of god).
So a person can be a Christian Jew.
Many westerners can't comprehend this idea because their culture derives from the Christian faith (wether they are christians or atheists), which is a universal religion.
Jews, just like other ancient religious groups (such as the old polytheist egyptian and greek faiths) are also an ethnic group.
Back then your faith also determined your ethnicity.
With the rise of Christianity it all changed.
Islam is only partially universal because there is still the idea of "ummah", of a muslim nation, and a single sacred language which binds them all (Arabic).

So Jews are both ethnic group and a religious group.


2. The matter of how old Judaism is.
The first time the name "Israel" is mentioned in history, is the Egyptian Merneptah Stele dated to about 1210 BCE.
That means the nation of Israel, or the people we call Jews today, exist atleast 3216 years, according to historical evidence.
However, Judaism, just like any other religion, evolved from that early time.
For example, before the Israelites arrived to the Land of Israel, they were a group of nomadic people who worshiped god without any temple.
Then they built the first temple.
Would you say then that they were no longer Israelites, simply because their religion evolved?
Does that mean that protestant sects of Christianity aren't really Christian, and so we are dealing with a totaly new religion, only 500 years old?
Ofcourse not.

Bella, Christianity was created from the same sect as Rabbinical Judaism - that is, the Pharisees.
Jesus was a Rabbi as well, after all.
The fact is that the Sadducee sect couldn't survive the destruction of the temple.
However, the Karaites, which are Jews as well, still follow this sect, which was quite popular among Jews until around the 10th century.
There are many Karaites in the state of Israel, btw.
And the Pharisee sect was created around 200 BC, 200 years before Jesus was born.


3. The name "jew" vs. "judean" vs. "hebrew"
This is quite an easy one.
The name Israel comes from the name Jacob got after a religious revalation, according to the OT.
The first unified kingdom, that is, the kingdom that was rulled by David and Solomon, was called "Israel".
Jews have always called themselves "Israelites", not "Jews".
However, when the the unified kingdom splitted into Israel and Judah, it was the Judeans who kept loyalty to the Davidic royalty, they were the ones who continued to see Jesualem as their sacred capital, etc.
Citizens of both kingdoms viewed themselves as Israelites.


Levites had no territory of themselves. They were the priestly tribe who lived among all other tribes. I myself am from the tribe of Levi. The meaning of the the names "Levi", "Cohen" and "Judah" have changed throughout Jewish history.
There were Levites in the kingdom of Judah, just as there were in the kingdom of Israel.
There were members of the ten tribes in the kingdom of Judah as well.
It's just that the kingdom was called "Judah" because the vast majority of it's territory was the territory of the tribe Judah, and it was rulled by kings from that tribe. It doesn't mean, however, that only Judeans lived there, because after the creation of the first temple there was little importance to the tribal division, unless you were a Levite (which granted you a certain religious role).


As for "Jews as Israelites", here's what wikipedia has to say:



Jews as Israelites.


It should be noted, that in Italian and Greek, Jews are called "Ebrei" or "Ivrei", which means "Hebrew", probably a remnant of the fact that both Romans and ancient Greeks had contacts with Jews long before they were began to be called "Jews" by Christians.

so the God in the bible is the "Hebrew" God? God of Israelites? Isn't the God of Hebrews, according to the, well, hebrews.. Their God? then how the hell christianity arises from that hebrew god? and why are there so many people in the world all jumping into churches to worship a God who was originally there only for the hebrews? wierd.. it's amazing how easily people can be brainwashed. what's written down must be true.. whats taught to me by my parents must be true...and so on and so on..... such mentality is so primitive.. im surprised these people can even walk upright and not on their knuckles.

No one said she didn't. However, if you are making a claim that you wish to dispel with false information floating about the internet, and then provide false information ... someone needs to call attention to it. That's exactly what I did. I then provided links to academic sources from major universities where the correct information can be found.

Sean

cyrus11 - your last comment was not called for. You can state your opinion without resorting to such comments.

I have a question.....If hebrew is the old name for Jews...why was Jesus called - The King of the Jews..and not the King of the Hebrews????

Morning BM. This might help, along with the links I provided above.

Jews (Hebrew: ??????, Yehudim) are followers of Judaism or, more generally, members of the Jewish people (also known as the Jewish nation, or the Children of Israel), an ethno-religious group descended from the ancient Israelites and from converts who joined their religion. The term also includes those who have undergone an officially recognized formal process of religious conversion to Judaism.

SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

Sean

I encourage people to check for themselves from religious sites on Judaism operated by Jews.
My timelines are not incorrect. Nero was indeed scapegoating the Christians in Rome before the RELIGION of Judaism existed. At that time the Hebrew denomination of the Pharisees was still intact.
The spread of Christianity was nothing short of explosive, and it swept through Europe before the fall of the Temple.
On the same day the the Temple fell in Jerusalem, there were already Christians in Great Britain. It was after the Temple fell that the Hebrew Pharisees denomination was reborn as the new religion of Judaism.



Yeshua ben Yoseph, Jesus, was not a Pharisee. He was a Nazarene. The Nararenes were one the four dominant Hebrew denominations, centered in the area of Galilee.
Their was no town named Nazareth at that time.

By believers:

"I am Jesus of Nazareth (corrected - of the Nazarenes)" (Acts 22:8 RSV) (see On The Road To Damascus)

"And when He entered Jerusalem, all the city was stirred, saying, "Who is this?" And the crowds said, "This is the prophet Jesus from Nazareth (the Nazarenes)of Galilee." (Matthew 21:10-11 RSV)

"Concerning Jesus of Nazareth (the Nazarenes), Who was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people" (Luke 24:19 RSV)

"But Peter said, "I have no silver and gold, but I give you what I have; in the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth (the Nazarenes), walk." And he took him by the right hand and raised him up; and immediately his feet and ankles were made strong." (Acts 3:6-7 RSV)

By unbelievers:

"Can anything good come out of Nazareth (the Nazarenes)?" (John 1:46 RSV)


These two sections were translated correctly and clearly identify that Jesus was at leader of the Hebrew Nazarenes.

"And as Peter was below in the courtyard, one of the maids of the high priest [see Caiaphas] came; and seeing Peter warming himself, she looked at him, and said, "You also were with the Nazarene, Jesus." (Mark 14:66-67 RSV)

"For we have found this man a pestilent fellow, an agitator among all the Jews throughout the world, and a ringleader of the sect of the Nazarenes." (Acts 24:5 RSV)


As to why these two new religions worhipped the Hebrew god, since there was only one God in their beliefs, there was no other god that could be worshipped. There were changes in their sets of beliefs (relgions) about God, but no change in their belief in there being one god.

Thanks

Another false claim. This is a misnomer. Nazareth, while not mentioned in early first century texts, did in fact exist. It was so tiny that it simply did not warrant mention.

Four of the tombs were sealed with rolling stones, a type of closure typical of the late Jewish period up to A.D. 70. From the tombs, therefore, it can be concluded that Nazareth was a strongly Jewish settlement in the Roman period. (The Archaeology of the New Testament, Princeton University Press: Princeton, 1992: pages 44-46)

SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazareth#Naza...and_archaeology

Sean

King of the Judeans. A politcal execution, not a religious execution.

If it had been a religious execution than it would have been done by the Sanhedrin instead of by the Romans.

However much there may have been creative rewrites or additions, the fact remains that it was not the other Hebrews who killed Yeshua ben Yoseph, it was the Romans doing what Romans usually did back then, silence anyone getting too large a group of followers parading through a Roman city who was not under Roman control.

Bella what you say is simply incorrect.
According to the same logic, all protestant denominations are not really Christians, they are a new religion which is only 500 year old.
Ever since 722 BC, when the Kingdom of Israel was abolished by the Assyrians, there was no point in distinguishing between "Israelites" and citizens of Judah, because the only remaning Israelites were citizens of Judah. And so foreign nations began calling the faith of the Jews "Judaism".
Jews have never in their history called their faith "Judaism", and they rarely used the name "Jews" for themselves until the Middle Ages.

Jews have been calling themselves "Children of Israel", or "Israelites" for most of their history.

A religion is a set of beliefs and when those beliefs have been changed enough among a set of people then it is a new set of beliefs. A few differences mark them as a denomination, but several major differences mark them as new religions.

Jews, Christians, and Moslems all worship the Hebrew god, but they have enough differences in their beliefs to mark them as separate religions.

All of the Hebrews were waiting for the messiah. The Nazarenes believed he was Yeshua ben Yoseph and this caused new beliefs to follow. The Pharisees thought something had gone terribly wrong with their beliefs connected to worship or the Temple would not have fallen and this caused new beliefs to follow.

The writing of the New Testement changed the Nazarene Hebrews to Christians.
The writing of the Talmud changed the Pharisee Hebrews to Jews.
The Essenes and the Sadducees the only other two dominant Hebrew religious denominations ceased to exist.

Today the Catholics and the Protestants are much like the old Hebrew denominations in that they both use almost identical texts, but use different interpretations of those texts.

The Mormons who have an entirely additional text exclusive to themselves are most often refered to as members of the Mormon religion, rather than the Mormon denomination of Christianity because the additional text has provided a major change in belief structure.

One could refer to Christians, Jews, and Moslems as still being members of the Hebrew religion, but the fact remains that the Hebrew religion did not contain the New Testement, the Talmud, or the Quoron.

That's just christian revisionism.
Pharisee Judaism existed long before the fall of the temple, around 200 BC.
The Saducee sect was once the dominant one. After the destruction of the temple, Judaism had to change to survive.
Pharisee Judaism was the only sect that didn't revolve around the temple so strongly, and so it became to dominant one.
Christianity too came out of a semi-Pharisee Jewish sect.

Jews were called Jews by the Romans before the destruction of their temple and before Christanity came to be.
Christians to this day are called "Nazzaratians" by Jews.

Here's what wikipedia has to say about the Pharisees:

"The Pharisees (from the Hebrew perushim, from parash, meaning "to separate") were, depending on the time, a political party, a social movement, and a school of thought among Jews that flourished during the Second Temple Era (536 BCE–70 CE). After the destruction of the Second Temple, the Pharisaic sect was re-established as Rabbinic Judaism — which ultimately produced normative, traditional Judaism, the basis for all contemporary forms of Judaism. The relationship between the Pharisees and Rabbinic Judaism (exemplified by the Talmud) is so close that many do not distinguish between the two. Nevertheless, the social standing and beliefs of the Pharisees changed over time, as political and social conditions in Judea changed. It is thus impossible to understand the Pharisees without understanding their historical context."

SOURCE

The first Christians were Jews who belonged to the Nazzaritian sect. After the fall of the temple, when most Jews began to adhere the to the Pharisee or Rabbinic sect, they seperated themselves from mainstream Judaism and began to see themselves as a seperate religion.

What were you trying to prove Bella with false assumptions and facts.