do you think it is possible that we are living in a virtual world, similar to the matrix?

No...It is physical

what makes you think so?

Because I can touch things, I eat, I can observe natural phenomena around me, my body works, etc.

isnt it possible that it is really 187690ad, and the virtual reality is so deep and hightch that all of these senses can be manupulated?

if not, please explain yourself

Humans would be dead by now

What makes you think the brain can be manipulated like that? It cannot.

the brain is fairly simple.

Technology is already around to manipulate human emotion


i have a lot of faith in technology, and i am an extremely logical thinker

My dad is a neurologist, the brain is not simple...It would be VERY hard to manipulate it to your extreme.

yet, it is possible right?

If it was, then why do humans have a working cerebrum? Medulla Oblongata? or Pons? If it was all virtual, we wouldn't need these parts of the brain, yet, they are essential. So, No.

Why do you have this notion?

[quote name='frogfish' date='Apr 17 2006, 10:16 PM' post='1152295']
If it was, then why do humans have a working cerebrum? Medulla Oblongata? or Pons?



i beleive it is all an illusion

what do you think out of body experiences are?

No, its an actual living part in your brain...without it, you die.


Nothing really...

what if your whole life is just a dream?

In dreams you don't feel pain, and objects...

yes you can. i have felt pain in my dreams before and i could feel things i touched.

Dreams take place entirely inside the brain, which lacks pain receptors and mechanoreceptors.

^ But the mind can produce powerful things like impulses to nerves when you trick yourself while you're asleep though right? I mean I've felt like I've been zapped, or electricuted, and even numbed in dreams before. Not like, "OMG I BROKE MY ARM" pain but just jolts.

Thos are just random impulses generated from stimuli outside the body while asleep. The mind tends to link them to your dreams.

You know, I think the 'life is an illusion' thing is a really common phase to go through while in the teenage years.

I've come to the conclusion that it doesn't really matter one way or the other. Whether it is an illusion/matrix thing or not, you still got to live in it.

Nicely put.

how could so many lives be intermingled in a "matrix" like setting? if we are all really "dreaming" how do you explain little things, like finding a photograph of someone you dont know, and never will? or telemarketers? I have no medical training, so I cant talk about the complexities of the brain, but gut feeling here is we are all experiencing real life.

We are real this world is not, all that happens only happens inside of your brain. So if you want to dream while you are awake, you have to learn.

You are correct...We would have no need for the pons, cerebrum, etc if it was all virtual. But withlut those parts, our brain cannot function and we die.

Perhaps some of us are stuck in our teenage years...

Question reality; question existence, the world, the universe; question everything, even the question itself. “I think, therefore I am” no longer works. Descartes is a myth. “I think that I think--therefore I am?” is Baudrillard’s assertion. The simulacrum--imagine the real and realize the imagined--the possibility that all things are not what they appear to be, that they never were, that everything we thought was real and everything we still think is real might actually be something we cannot grasp.

On his European Graduate School faculty home page, Baudrillard posts:
"It is more difficult for us to imagine the real, History, the depth of time, or three-dimensional space, just as before it was difficult from our real world perspective to imagine a virtual universe or the fourth-dimension. The Simulacra will be ahead of us everywhere. The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth - it is the truth which conceals that there is none. Since the world is on a delusional course, we must adopt a delusional standpoint towards the world."


Can we comprehend a world on a “delusional course,” and one that bears no truth? In Baudrillard’s sense, that is the ultimate question--the question that cannot be answered, for the answer--that which we aspire to, that which we quest for, that which we feel an inexhaustible conviction to possess, may very well be Simulacra. Using Baudrillard’s logic, the answer must be Simulacra. Consider Ecclesiastes 7:24, “What exists is beyond reach and unfathomable: who can master it?” It stands to reason that we must alter our perspective exponentially if we are to maintain focus upon an expononentially altering world. And furthermore, in Ecclesiastes 8:17, “...that man is not able to discover the work which is done under the sun, for the sake of which a man labors to search but does not find it: even though a wise man thinks he knows, he shall not be able to find it.” Baudrillard’s rhetoric reflects this age-old ideology in his argument from “The Precession of Simulacra,” that “The simulacra will be ahead of us everywhere. The simulacrum is never that which conceals the truth - it is the truth which conceals that there is none” (1). Baudrillard is saying, unabashedly, that what we seek more so than anything else--the Ultimate Truth, the Reality of All Things, the Meaning of Life--has been and will always remain unobtainable because its destination is an undefinable realm of Abstract Darkness and lacks any apparent and familiar semblance of onus probandi. This is a new rhetoric: Something no other rhetorician had done previously. Not new as in opposing Aristotle and Plato; Vico; Burke and Perelman; or Richards and McLuhan, but new as in asserting claims to which the burden of proof, the Traditional and Established means of evidence, are applied to what is the most extraordinary abstraction-- simulation of Reality and Existence. “This thought consists in putting into place a form, a matrix of illusion and disillusion, a strange attracting force, so that a seduced reality will be able to spontaneously feed on it” (Vital Illusion 33). This “seduced reality” is a constructed simulation of a reality, what Baudrillard calls “Hyperreality.” Baudrillard explains in Simulacra and Simulation: “Abstraction today is no longer that of the map, the double, the mirror or the concept. Simulation is no longer of a territory, a referential being or a substance. It is the generation by models of a real without origin or reality: a hyperreal” (1).

It is this hyperreality which has become the new and terrible American Dream. And it is a lucid dream, subject to selective mutation by the dreamer(s). As long as we remain in it, trust in our sensory reception eludes us. Therefore, we must go beyond the traditional and established modes of evidence and proofs if we are to comprehend and accept simulation and simulacra as the the fundamental premise of all Postmodern Rhetoric.

Sigmund Freud said, in Civilization and Its Discontents, that “Life, as we find it, is too hard for us; it brings us too many pains, disappointments and impossible tasks. In order to bear it we cannot dispense with palliative measures. We cannot do without auxiliary constructions” (23). What this means to me, and, it appears, to Baudrillard, is that it is because we have no other alternative. Those “palliative measures” are the things we do to alleviate our inability to rationalize radical ideas that challenge our innate faculties, the most difficult of which is conceiving of that which cannot be sensed but stands to reason because the its manifestations comprise our physical world. And the “auxiliary constructions” are the simulation and simulacrum.

-mkl

"We cannot do without auxiliary constructions” (23). What this means to me, and, it appears, to Baudrillard, is that it is because we have no other alternative. Those “palliative measures” are the things we do to alleviate our inability to rationalize radical ideas that challenge our innate faculties, the most difficult of which is conceiving of that which cannot be sensed but stands to reason because the its manifestations comprise our physical world"


This may very well be true. I am not, however, a staunch believer in some obtuse truth that lies beyond man's ability to detect it. And, as interesting and entertaining the thought of it might be, it bears little resemblance on anything that I have to deal with on a daily basis. As someone who has to deal with the reality that I am presented with, I have little time or energy to divulge in simulcra. Exploring unusual philosphies will not feed my children.

I'm guessing you mean the experience is not real and it's a halucination. If so, then may I ask you:

Have you proved this? Or are you just being a believer? You know, believing something without hard proof.

I think you would like a theory put forward concerning this:

The holographic Universe

http://www.crystalinks.com/holographic.html

No, we aren't living in a virtual world like from the movie, The Matrix. My reasoning behind it, is simply that, if we were, I doubt the "creaters" of this virtual world, would allow us to even consider the thought that we are in a virtual world, and I also doubt that they'd allow such a film as The Matrix put ideas in our head that we are in one. Otherwise, we may "find a hole", and break free from it, a little similar to the matrix. Of course, we aren't in a virtual reality though.

Actually, concerning the "Can you/can't you feel feelings in your dreams" conversation going off further up the page, I can say I have "felt" sensations in my dreams before, quite strong ones, but I don't think I was physically feeling them, more mentally. Actually, I might do some research on that topic, as it something I've not consdiered much before.

Purplos posted: "I am not, however, a staunch believer in some obtuse truth that lies beyond man's ability to detect it. And, as interesting and entertaining the thought of it might be, it bears little resemblance on anything that I have to deal with on a daily basis. As someone who has to deal with the reality that I am presented with, I have little time or energy to divulge in simulcra. Exploring unusual philosphies will not feed my children."

- Actually, Simulation and Simulacra are the reality you perceive 24/7/365. There is nothing unusual about furthering the understanding of human psychology, especially your own, because it can certainly help "feed your children"; it keeps a steady paycheck in my bank account, along with many others who do the same.

-mkl

if you happen to drown in water then its real..

My point was not that the simulation & simulacra was real, imaginary, everyday, or nonexistant. Nor was it that seeking to understand or expand one's knowledge of themselves & the world is not a valid thing to do. You make your living doing such - great! I make my living doing something else, therefore I have limited time & energy to further my understanding of human psychology. That's all.

I have felt pain in a dream,

Very interesting post Bio-mage, ty. But is seems to me that this info presented about the interconnection of all things may be an explanation to a lot of pheomena that people who believe in the paranormal are talking about. It is therefore funny to me that you who have posted so many skeptic remarks would then post this.

Well Mr. Frogfish, you say we cannot manipulate the brain...but if we know everything about a brain, in a near future it is possible. If we don't know everything about the brain, then is the thought that the brain can see in the future or etc...or that a soul is controlling it so hard to believe?

you have been watchin that retarted movie trilogy the matrix entirely to much. no this is not an alternate world liek the matrix irs stupid to think that. whats next ur gonna tlak aobut how u think we should all sail to the undieing land with frodo and gandalf ro go into space with darth vadar. i mean come on

The fact that the "soul" is unharnessable...no.


Its not real pain. There are no physical stimulii of neurons.

What makes you so sure? I have felt pain in dreams, and have woken up before still feeling it- with no physical stimuli to cause it. Perhaps some people do, and some people don't...

I would think the pain in dreams is very similar to the pain reported by amputees - pain in the missing limb. It is 'all in your head,' but isn't most nervous system response? Whether it comes from physical or psychological stimulation or neurons, it is still real to the individual, huh? I would still call it pain. After all, there is emotional pain as well... and that has nothing to do with physical stimuli.

So?



Not necessairly.



What makes you think it cannot?



Working with the asumption that this is all virtual reality, so is the brain that your dad understands. It may not be an accurate representation of reality.



You have a very superficial view of the subject. Who says they're actually working? They may be part of the virtual reality...



Maybe you dont, but I did. And you're completely missing his point. What if it is a dream, just more lucid than when you go to sleep and dream?



Dude, it doesnt matter if it lacks pain receptors. The brain lacks eyes aswell, but you can see in your dreams, no? The brain does process the impulses sent by the pain receptors, and turns them into "pain", and I've had plenty of dreams where I've felt pain or just felt objects.



Never the less, there was pain int he dream.



What if thats the goal?



Of course.

It amazes me that people can think that something is absolutely wrong and ficticious simply because its not a popular belief.



You know... before calling someone else stupid, you should really learn to write properly.



Si it was fake pain? Pain is pain. Whether the appropriate neurons were stimulated or not doesnt change whether it was pain or not.



Touché.

then what did I feel

Real pain is by physical stimulii


Yes it does...I assume you do not know the workings of the brain and neurology...Its called phantom pain. Not real pain.


Nothing...Dreams are complicated thecreeper...I assure you that you did not feel pain.


Yes it does...The brain cannot create pain in a dream because it does not have pain receptors


Try taking your pons out and see how long you live


But you didn't


Not real pain from stimulation.



Emotional pain has nothing to do with this.


Before people speak, they should learn a little about neurology..I see Purplos did

I think your giving me a little to much credit when said my dreams were complex, and I did feel pain in a dream

You cannot...Dreams are images made in your brain...No neurons are stimulated whatsoever...Brainwaves are even slow!

mist have fallen off my bed in the middle of that dream then, and I am not ALWAYS WRONG

Could of...The only pain comes from external stimulation...Like someone pricking you while you are sleeping.

It may be called phantom pain, but it is still pain. When talking about pain as we are, in no part of the definition it requires something physical. The pain exists, regardless of whether the person actually has damage in the area he's feeling it, or whether he does not. Pain is, quite simply, an unpleasant sensation, and if the person feels an unpleasant sensation, it is pain. You cant get around it. He might no longer have a leg, and suffers from phantom limb, but if he feels an unpleasant sensation in his "phantom" limb, he feels pain.





Thats like saying "I assure you that you did not actually see anything in your dream."

Does not sight depend on light contacting and being processed by your eyes? So does that mean that I'm actually blind in my dreams...? Because actually, I can see quite clearly in my dreams...



Dude, I'm telling you, I've felt pain in my dreams, and others have felt the same. If you're going to go on being ignorant thinking "you know best" then go ahead, and leave us out of it. Whether the pain was amplified from a physical sensation and applied to the dream does not matter, we DID feel pain in our dreams.



Once again you ignore the severity of the subject. Working under the assumption that this is a virtual reality, it does not matter if we die because we "take out our pons", because it can be said that that death is "scripted". Look at computer games. They're virtual, yet if you get hit by a bullet in an FPS, the character dies, no?



Of course. You're perfectly qualified to tell others what they've felt and havent felt.

Let me ask you a serious question: Can you see?



Umm, yes it was. Let me quote you:

"Thos are just random impulses generated from stimuli outside the body while asleep. The mind tends to link them to your dreams."



Indeed it does. Emotional pain is a form of pain, yet it has no external physical stimuli. Working off of your logic, emotional pain therefore doesnt exist.



Perhaps before you speak you should stop thinking that you are a neurologist and actually learn a little about it too.



Well then please, explain to me what I felt, hmm?



The same can be said about sight, so please, explain to me how I can see in my dreams?






*sigh* Like I've said, it doesnt matter if it came from external stimulation, the pain WAS felt in the dream.

In a sense, yes


It cannot be...its physically impossible without external stimulation


Images created by your brain...Sight is different. The thing is, the brain cannot create pain w/o stimulation.


Nothing


I think...wait, I AM SURE I know more about neurology than anyone else here


Take out your pons, and see how long it takes you to"come back to life" again like they do in games


Unless you had an external stimulation, you cannot


No, your brain makes images up..but thats different. The Brain cannot make pain w/o a stimulus.


Which is caused by external stimulation. W/o stimulation of the parasympathetic nervous system, you cannot feel pain. Maybe the pain you felt was when you accidently stubbed a toe or somethinf while in REM sleep. Stage 1 Brain waves during REM only respond to stimuli...it cannot create pain

the brain can feel pain without any outside reasons