For those who might not know, Obi-Wan has a pretty solid Ouija page with lots of information and links for anyone that is interested - also check out Tim Boucher for a fairly lengthy lesson in the "Weej" .

http://www.ghosts.org/ouija.html

http://www.timboucher.com/journal/2005/09/24/the-ouija-board

I'm curious so I'm asking all of you, whether you've used one or not, no matter what experiences you've had. Do you think the layout or design would affect the operation of the board at all? Would some board designs put you more at ease? Would you be less willing to use a board design with skulls and snakes and symbols all over it? Do you think the layout and design itself may hamper or facilitate communication - maybe some designs are just awkward and uncomfortable, maybe some are better than others - circle better than the rectangle, perhaps?

For anyone interested in the nearly countless different types of "spirit contact boards" throughout history, check out the Museum of Talking Boards (they also have some good solid links and information) at http://www.museumoftalkingboards.com/gal1.html.

Now I personally have found the round or "orb" board to be much more to my liking, and seems to be easier to use, as well as generally being a little easier to read, though all I've used is one I made with paper, using an upside down AOL CD for the indicator (yes, they really CAN be useful for SOMETHING). So I made my own printable board using MS Word, and could probably make much better ones using a graphics editing program or such.

She certainly does have a great ouija page.

In my opinion, the most effective board layout would be the one the individual (or the majority of the group) was most comfortable with. If it's an unfamiliar or uncomfortable board your concentration might be more on the board than on the more important aspects and therefpre any communication might be weakened.

That said, in the very few times I have used a ouija board, I have used one made from paper and pen immediately before the session and destroyed immediately after. It was just a simple structure, with the letters in capitals across the top, then the numbers ordered 1-0 underneath and 'yes' and 'no' in the bottom left and right corners.

I feel that the design of the board is most importaint. I love my Psychic Circle, and have used it quite a bit. I find it funny when an entity will openly admit to being evil. How dumb can you be? Anyways, the board I have has so much to it that you can get all sorts of info off of it. It has colours, zodiac symbols, planets, etc. It is designed by Amy Zerner and Monte Farber. I would recommend this board for people who do not like the look of a ouijia board. It actually is not considered a oujia board. I cannot however work it on my own yet.

I don't know if the design is to be more user friendly to those using it...or those who are contacted through it....something with symbols might have better results since not all spirits and such know English as a first language. Just my two cents..

Very good observation! In fact, when my group "Ouijed", we would occasionally get board personalities which didn't seem to be able to spell, or which spelled in extremely awkward ways or even archaic Ye Olde Tyme Speeche, or occasionally, other languages, such as French, Spanish, Greek and even ... whatver the word is to indicate people from India.

The idea of using symbols for communication is certainly not new, though few boards have made use of them. The Psychic Circle is probably the most notable and popular board to include symbols (and MAN does it pour on the symbols - elements, planets, sun signs etc), as well as a number of additional helpful things, such as word lists including "look", "new", "open" and others, for quicker flow of messages, I presume.

However, I myself have to wonder about the necessity of such - if all I speak is English, even if I have a board design that allows someone who only knows ancient Sanskrit or Aramaic to tell ME something... won't I need some way to get my words across to the board personality? Where is the 'symbol' list for ME to select from? Its not a bad idea, but I'm just not sure if I accept the idea that "spirits" use language like we do, or that they can understand English but speak Swahili... though I can understand, to some extent, if it were done telepathically, they might get the general idea from our minds when we say something, but they would have no way to respond in our realm.

Yes, there are many thousands of designs of 'Ouija' - 'Talking' - 'Angel' boards out there not to mention the (perhaps) many millions of personal/home devices. I, myself began with a circle similar to the one you have posted and, for quite a while, felt very comfortable with it.

Through research, I have found that the design certainly does influence communication. This is because the pictures of skulls, witches, moons or whatever do influence our approach if only on a subliminal level. Entertaining they may be yet, practical they are not in most cases. Thus, for me, the 'bland' version that you have enclosed here is ideal.



Meantime, I wouldn't worry about languages. In my experience, I have found that, when we come into contact with the so-called 'beyond' that, whilst we do so, we are also in contact with Carl Jung's 'Common/Collective Consciousness'. This is the consciousness that knows all languages from ancient times right through to languages yet to be invented by Man. Through this consciousness, regardless of language, we are all understood. All languages have a basic timbre or rather a template if you like. From this template, all languages are formed and understood.

The oldest entity (from this planet) I have spoken to was easily over 140,000 years old and, you'll agree, way before any known language in history on this Earth was ever known. Communicating with him was no problem. In fact, because of his age in 'spirit' terms, speaking with him was made easier than those who have recently passed over.



Since you have made a reference to it (re: *Spirit Contact Board*© although any 'ouija' type board may be used yet mine was *specifically* designed by those who are already there on the other side and was not designed by me. I began with my own design of course (like most of us do) but, over many years, was slowly guided, by them, to finish with what I now have. Everything was designed by them from top to bottom including colours, layout and everything. All I did was followed instructions you see? So, though you may use the term 'spirit contact board' yet, please don't mistake anything we mortals may make for something THEY made Ok? They're much better at it than we are and are much more on the ball than we as far as that is concerned.

Ultimately then, who would know what would work better - we mortals or those who know better, the workings of actual and proper *spirit* communication?

Naturally, this wont sit well for those who struggle with authority or have problems with it yet, when we are dealing with the afterworld, authority takes on a whole different meaning altogether. (A Rose without a thorn type thing and not a spear through the soul like it is here?). I say this because, whether we appreciate it or not, whether we believe it or not yet, all those in our worlds beyond certainly do know things better than we do. And so, when it comes to communication through a board, glass and a few bits of paper, they know best. This is what I have found.

But, as you have suggested, there's nothing wrong in building one's own just the same.

It's a start at least and, of course, I'm all for that.



Meantime, in speaking for myself I have to add that, I visited both your links (along with many others) a while back and, in passing, I have to say that, yet again, instead of finding something useful, all I found were the same tired and worn out old wive's tales that the world is full of when we are talking of Ouija Boards. I do realise that this website has been around for a while and so, we must respect this. Evenso, I ask that you bear in mind that, because something is repeated often and that this same repetition is even repeated by notaries - that it still does not necessarily make that thing a truth but *could* be repetitions of the original 'assumption'. When we are dealing with things as profound as 'life after death' or the existence of another 'otherworldy' existence then, surely 'assumptions' we can best live without? I would much rather *know* wouldn't you?

But, by all means, ignore me. Go ahead. Give it a go and see what you come up with.

Meantime, along with your board, what advice do you give to those who will copy it and try it out for themselves?

What can most of us expect to contact please?

How do we handle it/they?

How do we assimilate that information?

How do we avoid any negative communications and, can you guarantee that safety?

What do you suggest we do with something that may come through that suggests that we will die in say, three days? (A common occurance apparently)

What are the limitations of communication through boards and a planchette?

Will my belief in Satan effect communications in any way - if so - how?

If I purposely set out to find ghosts in say, a known haunted location, what do I do once I have made contact please?

How can I find my own proof that what I am doing is actually true and not a figment of my imagination? Or how can I prove that I am not fooling myself?

As you know, possession is a real worry for most people, how can I avoid this?

How do I know that the person I am speaking to is actually who they say they are?

In what circumstances would a 'bad' ghost need to speak to me when I don't want to speak to them?

Why do 'bad' ghosts exist?

And so on.

I'd be interested in your take on this and appreciate, in advance, any advice that you can give.


I thank you for your time

Bob Daulby

I omitted quoting Bob's post above, if you want to read it, its RIGHT THERE. =)

I appreciate your input, Mr. Daulby, and apologize if I have used the term 'spirit contact board' to refer to other boards, as I know that is your (er, sort of) copyright, etc.

Also, I agree the links I gave are overburdened by 'bad experience' stories, but it IS hard to find useful, practical information on spirit communication on the net, I agree and those are some of the 'best' I've come across (which isn't saying much).

Most of the ... er, practical (if you skeptics/anti-ouijers will indulge me) advice I've read has been in older books.

As for your questions, I think those are great questions and would make an absolutely terrific FAQ - I want to eventually put together my own fuller site on spirit communication addressing those types of relevant questions and sharing my own experiences and thoughts, to sort of counter-balance the wealth of "OMG it said I'd die and then it screamed and flew across the room and tore my Brad Pitt poster off the wall!" I just haven't gotten the incentive to get all my 'stuff' together to do so. Does your website have such answers and advice?

In realising that quoting others adds length to my already lengthy posts, this is why I have now chosen to omit them.

Old Books

With your reference to finding knowledge about ouija boards having originated from old books I am glad to say that you've hit the nail on the head. This is where everyone has begun from and so, from there, have constantly repeated what was even then *assumed* but not actually known. It is from these very books that all the trouble began and really, for me, should be either burned or viewed as relics of history - and to *leave* them there.

For myself, I have made public a free chapter from my course, 'The Vision And The Power'© (the one that comes with my board) here under the title Skeptic Heaven where I have specifically targetted an old favourite - 'the ideometer factor'. (If you find this useful and, as long as you credit me with this information then, by all means, add it to your own book).

The whole of the scientific community has hung their entire profession on this *assumption* that was originally written by a professional psychiatrist - who, himself, was completely ignorant to the *actual* workings of the ouija board. Skeptics use this assumption like it's some kind of Biblical, 'Word Of God' reference that, up until me, was irrefutable.

The reason why I mention this at all is because, as you have alluded to, all of our references begin with *antiquated* knowledge and, from this knowledge, have modernised it, bastardised it - added wonderful graphics to it - to bring it (seemingly) up to date. But is still WRONG.

This particular assumption was first written in 1924. (For goodness sake! *1924!!*???). If we are to be ever fearful of ouija boards, ghosts, and all things 'paranormal' then, for me, we really should try our damndest to move on eh?

Which is why I am here and why you have all your information too and why, really, as hard as it is yet, you really should finish it you know? It's something that simply must be done and I am sure that you can see this too.

In mentioning these old books, this may also explain my total lack of patience when it comes to ignorance of this subject. It is not that I am impatient with those who have been led by it but is directed at the entire radius of experience that includes Ouija boards. This radius is not confined simply to the scientific field. (If only it was for, it would be easy to beat them down). It includes the psychiatric, religious and even Spiritist field itself amongst them - not to mention Jo Public himself. These lies, assumptions and force-fed migivings have been so deeply ingrained within us all that it is proving to be a devil of a job to remove them.

...and all because some old git in the past was much too afraid to LOOK beyond his own fear BEFORE making such assumptions that have now become home 'truths'. Very frustrating to say the very least. I am happy to meet one who is prepared to go beyond the norm in search of his own truth of the 'what is'. I loudly applaud this in you. (And never mind about 'anti-ouija's'. If they want to lag behind and hide behind their own assumptions then I say let them. What difference does it make whether they 'believe' or not anyway? The sun shines *anyway* don't you find?)

Anyway, in speaking for myself, my first thought was to put up a FAQ page to at least approach the questions I laid down for you but then thought better of it. You see, I have found that it comes down to more than simply giving instructions. For example, let me take just one question I asked you...

1/ What can most of us expect to contact please?

Ok. Now, it is one thing to suggest that *most* people will contact say, a relative from the beyond and another to say that they *may* contact say, a relative or even a lover from a *previous* existence or that *most* people can expect to contact 'bad' entities yet, just the suggestion alone not only begs 'belief' but that the 'belief' itself has to be tackled.

I notice that, when you mention you're 'Ouijaing' that you did not mention who or what you contacted. Evenso, I am betting that, the contact you made (if any - I don't know) was well within your understanding and/or expectation? Why I suggest this is because, when I respond to such a question, it doesn't actually prove at all useful until ALL the stops and/or expectations have been covered and that the associate 'belief' system has been either (gently) disproven or poven unnecessary (or whatever). It boils down to this...

Contact With The Other Side

When we are talking of Ouija Boards, we are not simply talking about contacting 'ghosts' are we? That's only a tiny part of the whole picture. There is MUCH more to contact. Around this whole thing is, a belief system that has been infested with instilled nonsense the likes of which we have found all over the place. Many of us use this as a shield to protect ourselves with and learn to hold a lot of store in it. When we have chosen this shield (everyone has a different shield) then, the very next fear after this is the real and tangible fear of *being wrong*. And THIS fear is THE most fearful thing of all. Besides the nonsense and lies, we have also all been unwittingly taught to FEAR being *wrong* as if being wrong is another sin to contend with.

When we are in actual and real contact with the other side, one of the first things that we will all come across is this - being wrong. We were *wrong* to follow those lies and make them truths. We were *wrong* to even 'think' that our whimsical yet egotistical 'beliefs' had ANY effect as to the *real* existence of life existing after death - *despite* us. We were *wrong* to hold to the fear that was instilled within us but that WE accepted as our own as if *that* was right too! We were *wrong* to 'believe' in so much tripe and utter garbage that, it could be that, for many months after we learn the REAL truth of it all, we could be made to feel really silly you know? (God only knows I know how that feels).

So, answering the simple question "What can most of us expect to contact please?" proves to be ever so loaded and cannot be summerised in a FAQ page mainly because, many people will hold you to your suggestion or that, because of their instilled 'belief' systems, wont even hear of it. (i.e. Angels - do not, I repeat, do NOT exist. Now then, how do you think those who 'believe' in angels respond to this? "I don't 'believe' you they say. And so, until they find their own proof that they really don't I can't argue with that can I? Evenso, many will still *expect* to talk to Angels anyway...

...which brings up another real danger.

Those from the lower levels of existence WILL use that 'belief' against those who *insist* that they do you see? And this WILL come back to you too! ("You 'promised me' in your FAQ page that..." See? To many a FAQ page IS a promise).

Thus, a FAQ page is right out of the question and proves untennable. We have to be very careful about this - as well as being just as careful about putting up pictures of Ouija Boards knowing full well that anyone will download and copy them but have no help what-so-ever when they come to use it. (Sorry old friend but I had to say it. I mean no disrespect Ok? But there are those who will do this - which will then become your responsibility you see - hence my questions to you?).

Finally, when you're done with your own website concerning this subject, I would be happy to exchange links with you Ok? But, please, do get on with your book. I think it will prove to be more than usefull.

I Thank You For Your Time

Bob Daulby

Er, sorry for the miscommunication again apparently, a website is about all I have the incentive for, not a book, though I'd be happy to write one, I don't know anything about writing or publishing or any of that sort of thing, so I think I'll stick to websites for now.

Over the times I've participated in Ouijing, we've gotten hold of everything from dead medieval best friend knights to reincarnated pals from WWII, psycho-ex girlfriends from the Victorian era, schoolmarm librarians, valley girls, ravens, "aliens", dark entities I won't elaborate on (but which I think were due to at-table interpersonal conflicts), spirits of trees, angels, spirits who had never had bodies but were teachers, and yes, even someone claiming to be a live Ouija Board user at Loyola University who seemed as surprised as we were (that was a new one on me). To my knowledge, none of us ever attempted to contact and never were in contact with any departed loved ones or friends - we all just felt like that was pretty much the easiest, most common thing to try and we all in our own ways I felt had more respect for our own and each others' memories.




Here I disagree, though I understand and take in stride your comments and accurate indications of me providing boards for people to 'get into trouble with'. Although I take full responsibility for providing a paper board and some instructions, I believe personal development is an individual's own responsibility, not anyone else's - I neither take credit for any strides made, nor for any stumbling blocks, though I'd be more than happy to answer any questions anyone had, on the condition that they understand what I say is what I think, in my opinion, to me, and it may or may not necessarily apply for be a wise thing for them.


I believe a FAQ is EXACTLY what is needed for ... well, for ANYTHING, for everything - spirit communication included! While I think some formalities of disavowing responsibility and such for legal reasons is in order, for my purposes, I'd make a much more plain and obvious preamble to the FAQ concerning the fact that people's experiences will differ and (with all due respect), none of us can tell anyone else with CONCRETE certainty much about paranormal functions - we have our hypotheses, we have our theories, we have our own and other peoples' experiences and we have reason - these are the main guidelines which we will ALWAYS have, so no great amount of stock should be put into any of them until one feels they can decide for themselves how much of each have validity.

I will work on a FAQ and information page for 'talking boards' and my thoughts, as I said, though I fear a book may be a dream I'll never realize.

man, u guys write a lot of stuff that no one really wants to read.. at least mr daulby's stuff makes sense... lol

anyways.... u and i both know that anyone who is at least halfway intelligent on this matter would never use a oijiua board in fear of bringin somone over from the other side.... at least that is why i never use one... but i did once..... never mind


keep writin books on the topic, im sure everyone is reading.....lol

Well, you apparently are anyway, my one anti-fan who faithfully follows all my posts. Welcome to the Dark Side, Chops. >=D Who says no one wants to read these posts? People always enjoy reading posts about Ouija Boards and such don't they? They may not REPLY a whole lot but they do read them.



Since I have used store-bought and homemade boards and offer printable board files on my website, does this make me less than "halfway intelligent"? What, exactly am I supposed to be quaking in fear of "bringin" over from this "other side"?

I've been part to sessions which contacted everything from an alleged living person to aliens and two rather nasty "entities" which caused a great amount of anxiety among a few people (who were 34 and 40 years of age, embarassingly), and have even been the PRIMARY person who carried out a number of "freeings" and even a "banishment" of one rather uncivil communicant. The only thing I ever "got on me" was a flu germ from one of the other people at the table (remember to wash your hands frequently).

And now, more stuff "nobody" wants to read.

After having read Mr. Daulby's excerpt on his website, I have to say while I still am not in complete agreement with him on some specifics, I applaud his approach and presentation in that work, bringing in a lot of the "alternate explanations" (that a lot of people don't even know) and debunking THEM as outdated notions - a novel and fresh strategy!

For even MORE stuff "nobody" wants to read, click on my site link signature for free printable boards and some brief information and thoughts on "talking boards" and their use, including what some movements of the indicator/traveller might mean.

Have you ever tryed one of those? Combination of automatic writing or 'group automatic writing' with the ouji board. This was the only pic I could find, but the planchette supports a pen or pencil directly onto the paper underneath it.

http://www.randi.org/encyclopedia/planchette.html

Another method is table tipping, no board or planchette at all. The table is your board in a sense, spirit communicate by vibrating, lifting, walking, rotating or tipping the table.

Example - http://www.zohrala.com/mediums/parties_table.htm

I have Milton Bradley Ouija Board that works quite well for me- and I've posted a couple of my Ouija Board experiences here. You'd have to dig for them though since they were posted quite some time ago. They were postitive experiences, though.

I have to agree- a FAQ on the use of a Ouija Board would be incredibly useful in order to keep people from mis-using them and getting into a tough spot... of course, it is the fear of summoning a negative entity that allows the psychic industry to survive. If everyone knew the proper way to use a Ouija Board without risk, why would they need to call Miss Cleo on the 1-800-TOK-DEAD line, eh?

Automatic writing is something I'd like to explore myself- and table tipping has been around since the beginning of the Spiritualist Movement.

Yeah, a large, detailed, comprehensive Ouija FAQ would be a service to anyone interested in the subject, on a number of levels. And who knows, it might actually remove some of the stigma (gasp).

Yeah the device with the wheels/legs and the pencil was, I believe, what the original "planchette" was, and that's why the plastic ones with just a window are called a "traveller" or "indicator", because its not, technically speaking, a true planchette. I've never used one, or a group one - that IS an intriguing idea, if a group automatic writing session would actually work, since I can't seem to do that type of automatic writing on my own, but I've been in on some Ouija sessions.

Hello JPAT! ;-)

I was there, right with you, up until you quoted:

"To my knowledge, none of us ever attempted to contact and never were in contact with any departed loved ones or friends - we all just felt like that was pretty much the easiest, most common thing to try and we all in our own ways I felt had more respect for our own and each others' memories."

...which troubled me somewhat for which I would like to add the following if I may.

Although I can easily understand - and, as I have said, applaud your forward thinking as far as Ouija is concerned yet this, to me, was (perhaps) an indication of your own fear when using a Ouija Board - namely, the fear of 'getting close'. In reading your many posts (again) on this topic, I now understand where you're coming from and why we seem to disagree so much. If you'll bare with me, I am sure that we can clear this up Ok?

It is my view that you are being much too cerebral in your approach and though I understand this yet, for me, not all knowledge is available through the brain alone but through the heart *as well*. I could be wrong of course but, with the above statement, you can see where I get it from.

My approach has always been 'whatever comes, I'll deal with it with whatever is necessary from me'. This means that, if my head is needed then, my head is used. But, if my heart is needed then that too I will use. By *not* getting involved with your heart in this matter, for you and your group (which you said you didn't have on another post), the *other* side of the coin will never be revealed. Can you see this?

By openly avoiding that which is most important to your heart i.e. how all this is connected to YOU personally, I simply must let you know that you are actively cutting yourself off from things that are FAR more valuable to you than mere knowledge alone. Although I advocate the knowledge aspect of the Ouija yet, what few of us ever speak of is the heart side, the love and 'understanding' side that knowledge alone will not bring. It is also from this side more than the other where true and positive proof of the board's true validity comes from. What is more, that way, there is a lot more of it too.

In the absence of *actual* 'hold-in-the-hand' evidence, it is your heart and not your analytical abilities that lets you know what is true and what isn't. Although your mind may find the right question to ask yet, it is our heart and soul - the much higher part of us - that decides if something is true or not.

You mention ex-'psycho' girlfriends for example. Now then, why would she come to you? I am sure she didn't turn up just to give you some more of the usual. But then, if she did, I still have to wonder why she would show up at all? This is all very personal to you so, I wonder, from her, other than 'knowledge' did you get something out of that that helped YOU in some way that had nothing to do with your head? And remember, you too have a soul. When would it be convenient for you to have this touched too?

You see, to me, although the Ouija Board is a great tool for picking up great pieces of knowledge that is just not available on this earth yet, it is also a tool of personal growth that will also help us to grow to way beyond ourselves. But, without involving your heart or your own soul, this can never happen for you. I therefore, strongly advise that you and your group give this some serious rethinking to then allow ALL those who belong to all of you to come through. You will then also get to hear of *other* things that have never crossed even your knowledgeable mind before and will certainly give you plenty to think about.

Also, by not involving the heart and keeping everything 'safely' on paper as it were (that you can put away any time you like and forget them), you also cut yourself off from actual travels that you too can be taken on and where you will learn of the *many* differences between fact, fantasy, dreams and visions - which, in turn, will open up both within and outside of you, whole worlds of being that will keep you spellbound for many many years to come - much of which, you will not be able to put on paper and forget it but will live with you forever.

Why then, choose to cut yourself off from something that is yours too? And all for the sake of a few tears of real reunion around your Ouija board? I can promise you that, far from being embarrassed about it, by and through the closeness of your group and them being permitted to be as free as you, no one is ever embarrassed. By opening yourself and your group to ALL possibilities brings to you - exactly that - ALL possibilities - and a whole LOT more knowledge than even you may think.

By not allowing yourself to open up in this way, you will also come to learn that, no matter what legality you may put on your FAQ page yet, you are still responsible for ALL your influences upon everyone you have met. I don't say this to worry you but to bring to you something else that is never talked about in that, whether we think/believe it or not yet we are all responsible for everything around us - but that we are *especially* responsible for playing a direct role in those who listen to us *as well*. It may seem noble to say that everyone is responsible for their own learning process and that it's no business of anyone to involve themselves in it yet, whilst on paper and in this physical life this may be true yet, in spirit, there is no such cop out. We are responsible - full stop. If you used your Ouija board properly then you would know this Jpatt without me telling you.

Ghandi

Mohandas K Ghandi was a rare one wasn't he? (I have spoken to him). So big was he that, alone, he managed to kick out a whole empire (mine) from his country. This saved India and, from there, Ghandi became a saint in the eyes of all India - and yes, Pakistan and Bangladesh too! Now, if we ever thought he was big here then, you wouldn't believe how big his spirit is now. It is positively massive. Why? He is massive because his *influence* has outgrown India to have reached the entire world so that we are ALL influenced by his greatness.

On the other hand, in comparison to this, how SMALL do you think Hitler is now over there? Although his influence was also huge yet, his influence is a direct attack on 'All That Is' that ultimately made us *all* much smaller by his actions. And so, whilst Ghandi is rewarded with our love and respect (even now) yet Hitler is the other side of that coin whereby we are all made smaller - and why he still pays for this.

And so it is with all of us - you included and where no amount of legalities can ever free you from it.

By all means, put up your FAQ page if it is that important to you. Put up your legalities to protect you from responsibility (I have done something similar). But, without using all possible avenues yourself then, your FAQ page will only be half right at best wont it? Is this what you want?

Unlike your choice, I, on the other hand, choose to take responsibility for those who opt for me. You see, not only do they buy my stuff but that they get me throughout their entire experience until they don't need me anymore. When that is, is up to them. Although we may all learn Karate yet, alone and unaided, no one can learn it with any proficiency can they? They have to be taught. One day, they become a Black Belt themselves and so, will go on to teach others. Whether any of us like it or not yet, the universe and all that is, is built upon hierarchical knowledge i.e. those who know best pass it down so that others may grow from them too. And so, you have to ask yourself, what is it you want to teach Jpatt? What is the ultimate goal of your work? It has to be more than knowledge alone surely?

In now understanding you better, I can see now that, alone, you could not answer any of my questions above. Without fooling herself, how does a mother reunite with her son and KNOW that it really is him? How does she work her way through her grief using a Ouija Board? Do you see Jpatt? It is not all about knowledge alone. It is about a grieving mother's heart too? She doesn't want to 'learn' does she? She wants to KNOW. And so, with me, she does. If I am mistaken then, of course, I take full responsibility for this and will put it right. But I don't have to. I am that good see?

I want YOU to be that good too. Without a doubt, you're well on your way. But, without you heart in it, be honest, it wont work will it? And, until you allow this to happen then, *anything* I say to you wont mean a thing will it?

Who is your Guide?

Which previous existence influenced you the most in this one - and why has it?

Does knowledge of a previous existence really matter to any of us - if so, why would it?

What, for you, has constituted proof that your board actually works and that you are also not fooling yourself? Will you share an example of this proof?

Is there something else, beyond the norm, that may be gained from the spirit places that has never been done before but is now very possible through a Ouija Boad? (Any thoughts on this? For myself, no one would believe how far I have taken this possibility and what I have acheived with it).

If we imagine that every household has a Ouija Board and is not afraid of using one, how would this be of the greatest benefit?

You see Jpatt? It goes way beyond merely 'talking to ghosts' doesn't it?

We are talking of an existence so vast that it would boggle the mind to envision it. But then, to actually be able to use it to advance ourselves is an incredible matter altogether.

And it is *this* that *I* am actually all about see? For myself, I am not so much about 'knowledge' for 'knowledge's' sake. I am about advancement in *all things* for everyone (including sex, money and *material* advancement too).

That 'silly' little board, can bring this to us all far easier than any of us have ever believed possible before and that it is, as I say it is on my website, truly LIMITLESS. If I didn't touch that limitlessness myself then, how *else* would I have ever known this?

I Thank You For Your Time

Bob Daulby

PS: I am very interested in your communication with both the tree spirit and the raven. Want to share it?

Hello chopstik26! ;-)


"..anyone who is at least HALFWAY intelligent?" (Ha! Ha!) You're a cheeky one aren't you?

And this one?

"...would never use a oijiua board in fear of bringin somone over from the other side"

Well, that's the point isn't it? - To actually BE in contact with someone from the other side? Why do it otherwise?

I imagine though that, what you really mean is, you're worried about binging something 'bad' in. Is that right?

Chopstik26, it is all about learning more of the *real* what's what and not what your mum, dad, older brother, cousin second-removed TOLD you to 'believe'. When you come to learn about the REAL what's what then, you can say goodbye to these *instilled* worries forever - just as Jpatt and I have. And who are we? We're nothing special and, guess what? We're only the same as YOU that's all. If we can do it *anyone* can do it - including you.

Mind you though, you have to be careful when you come to do it yourself. I mean, it takes *brains* too you know? (LOL)

I don't know. There really are some funny people here aren't there? This is the first forum I have actually had a good laugh from and I have you to thank for that too chopstik26.

Thank you. You've cheered me up no end.

Bob Daulby

Hello Jpatt! ;-)

"...(who were 34 and 40 years of age, embarassingly), "

You think fear understands age or that age understands fear? Instilled fear, left unchecked will remain with us for ALL our lives regardless of age. And, why be ambarrassed if someone older should show it? They're human too aren't they? I really don't undertand why YOU should feel embarrassed over such a normal human reaction to something that many people - regardless of age - would *naturally* fear when confronted with something that they were inbred with since before you were born. At least they were there eh? Let's applaud them for that at least. Come on Jpatt. Be generous eh?

"...and have even been the PRIMARY person who carried out a number of "freeings" and even a "banishment" of one rather uncivil communicant".

May I ask you what you mean by both 'freeing' and 'banishement' please? Sounds rather sinister to me.

The only thing I ever "got on me" was a flu germ from one of the other people at the table (remember to wash your hands frequently).

LOL - This tickled me.

Meantime, I must thank you for your kind words about my website. I certainly appreciate it.


Bob Daulby

Hello Anvil! ;-)

Years ago and, with my first group, my wife was the one who ended up becoming the 'automatic writerist' (lol). From there, within weeks, she became a full blown channeler of extraordinary talents that became far superior to that of even the late great Eileen Garret. Whoever spoke through my wife back then was who I spoke with as if they were in the same room with me and was my first encounter with, what I call, the 'real' thing. She was truly mind-blowing. The people I spoke with through her blew my socks right off and shared stuff with me that I discovered was just not available to me or anyone else on this plain of being. Great stuff! I recommend it to anyone.

Personally speaking though, why bother with the plodding table tipping technique when you can get all you need through both the Ouija and automatic writing? If it is things you'd like to see moving around the room well, you don't need tables for that. But, never the less, I can see the fascination just the same. I've been to a few in the past myself and, to be honest, I couldn't stop yawning for, by then, I already knew enough to not warrant such party tricks. But, we're not all the same are we?

Meantime, I noted that one of your links sent us to that Randi place? My goodness me Anvil. Did you know that only recently, he was proven a fraud himself? (Use the search bar. You'll find it). And that so-called million dollar 'challenge' of his is an absolute joke. Had he been for real then I would have taken it off him years ago.

But then, for some, there is no other way to gain fame is there eh?

I Thank You For Your Time

Bob Daulby

Hi Bob,

I enjoy your posts, always giving lots to think about.



I have never tryed this personally yet although I have seen it done. I think its worth bringing into the discussion as it's simply a similar way of channeling. Alot of skeptics have a problem with the validity of a ouji board because it relys on language and anything to do with language invloves complex processes even sub-conciously.

If table tipping is conducted properly it makes for a much better and simpler 'experiment' for such skeptics/analysts. It also simplifys things for spirit. One common experince with ouji boards as you will know is when you get the garble nonsense, it is in my opinion that such garble is produced not just by non english speaking spirits, but non language ones as well. Human or language based entities are not the only ones to exist.

Table tipping offers an alt experince that relys on a similar set up, if it's for entertainment then yeah it perhaps isn't the most exciting method, however for a skeptic it could perhaps change their views.





Yeah I'm vaugely aware of Randi and always wondered about him, so that doesn't suprise me, but the picture of a automatic writing planchette was the only working link from google images and that was out of like 3 results!

Yes, but try reading it on a wall with no planchette. By yourself. Make sure you add "Hello". Because if anything, it is important to say hello to the spirits as it is without an attatchment. Eventually you understand you can't read it upside down for long. It's more comfortable with just the rightside up - double - curved formation. I made a large scale / small scale version of both. One I could read from a distance of over 30 feet away, with it being as big as 7 feet wide and about 5 feet in width.

Another way, you just write it - read it in the palm of your hand. Anywhere you want.

The point eventually is, you get away from reading it, and start "reading" 'both' sides. That is what I do. It's the smarter thing to do, I think, for me anyway.

I've certainly been accused of being "too cerebral" in a great many approaches I have to life. However, I remind you that none of us (one 40 year old, one 34 year old, one 32 year old, myself about 20 and occasionally a 21 year old) attempted to contact any passed family members. For myself, I didn't have any reason to - I loved and miss my parents but I've already come to terms with their passing and its never been my belief that spirits can get 'stuck' and unable to proceed on their journey, so anything I got would be myself in an artificial guise. I have no other family or friends I was curious about or wanted to talk to, but then I'm not terribly social to begin with. For clarification, I do not NOW have a group and have not used a board in quite a few years, but I DID have a group in the past.

I believe emotion and instinct and intuition have their place and value, even in decision making and learning, but I also believe they, like being too cerebral, can be the enemy of seeing things clearly. Insight and critical thinking, to me, are synonymous, with truly being able to understand the workings of a particular subject - perhaps that is my greatest bias, if you were to accuse me of one.

Its not that we ever 'avoided' speaking to passed loved ones, but none ever came up - most of the time we left the entire session 'open' to anyone who would speak with us, only occasionally asking to speak to a specific guide.


While the imagery here is laudible, and in some cases, I can see this, I'm afraid I cannot concur with this as a suitable overall approach - my heart will not tell me why photons act as both particle and wave, they just do, and I have to accept that and research it further if I want. To me, reason, analytical thinking and emotional guidance all end up in the same place at some point - eventually one gets tired of digging and settles on a conclusion. For example, though I say I don't believe in spirits, I do not necessarily mean that I do not think there is no validity here - simply that for my self, I am at the edge of my 'bubble', just as others simply say 'yep, there's spirits' - they go no further in the line of questioning of why or how - they simply chose a place to stop. "A conclusion is reached when one tires of thinking" or similar adage seems to fit that well. I would not be interested in the paranormal at all, however, if I thought pure analytical hold-in-the-hand thinking were the ultimate answer - I'd simply say "ghosts don't exist, psychic powers don't exist" because without that ingrained human trait of striving and believing in things that aren't likely.

The psycho ex-girlfriend was not mine but the slightly younger brother (32) of one of the main group participants (34). And it was only she who claimed to have been the ex from a past life, and this person has a ... questionable emotional grasp, so I'm tenuous on the validity I attach to this - she would 'break in' over other 'people' we were talking to.

I agree and take responsibility for all influences from anything I say or do; however I am not directly responsible for anyone's ultimate decisions they make - I'm more than happy to say I'm influential if indeed something I've said has influenced them, but there I stop giving myself credit for someone else's development - they are who they are and make the decisions they make based on their own processes and judgments as autonomous individuals - I don't blame or thank "God" if someone makes a horrible or wonderful decision, nor their parents, nor a magazine or book they've read or a show they've watched - people are accountable and responsible for their OWN actions. Ghandi's INFLUENCE may have made the world better, and Hitler's may have made the world worse, but past their initial impact, you can neither blame nor praise either now for things that happen - we still deal with peoples' individual decisions, influenced or not - this is the function of free will.

A half-accurate FAQ page is better than an internet full of inaccurate FAQ pages. Any steps toward combatting ignorance and fear are good, even given their own flaws and undisputed human error. I would prefer to present a variety of approaches and evidence and thoughts, including the 'negative' ones, so people can make their OWN decisions.

My interest and goal is not to promote something as GOOD, nor to debunk claims of it being BAD - simply to level the playing field with objective and reasonable representation for people to have more information - past that, it is out of my hands and out of my concern - what will be, will be. Knowledge is power, as the saying goes, and people should be empowered. I am one person hoping that a few of the things I do will help people think and see things more clearly and allow them to make more informed decisions - "good" or "bad" is irrelevant and subjective - we learn from both and both can bring about the opposite influences - this is beyond my ability or authority to judge.



She doesn't. She can only go on faith or be unable to believe. This is everyone's choice everyday.



And modest too. Seriously, if you're always right, then your claim of taking responsibility for being wrong is like wearing fireproof underwear while scuba-diving.


Conscience, integrity and curiosity guide me. If you mean "Spirit Guide", if the board is to be believed, at one time it was a Valley Girl named "Buffy", and at another it was Armadillo, though he was more a "totem", as he didn't say much, nor did Buffy for that matter. At one time while experimenting with "channeling", I was instructed by Anubis, the Ibis-Headed Egyptian God of the Dead. While automatic writing, I communicated with "Enceadus" and "Randy", a schoolteacher.


In a past life regression at a psychic fair, I was a member of some mostly-warrior tribe or culture, dark skinned, spear, no real armor to speak of, but with an after-life belief of something resembling the Viking Valhalla (I got to see how I died). In a further regression by a friend in my group later, I was apparently killed by a wild boar and died in a ditch, after missing with my thrown spear. This is the most memorable "life", though I also had a regression which placed me as a Native American storyteller and skeptic.


I think they may be archetypal clues to parts of our personality.


While acting as Scribe (I wrote down the letters but was not using the board), I watched as two of my group used the board while totally blindfolded (wads of cotton, duct tape and bandanas) and the board was spun different directions every few words - they STILL got mostly legible results, including my "totem", Armadillo, which I had sort of been thinking about earlier that day and had mentioned to no one. All this, however, could be telepathy and clairvoyance.


I don't really understand your question. The oldest of the group had a guide claim there was a book called "The Fabile Text", which was in a cave on one of the Other Planes and that was the only way it could be read - it contained various information, including how to use trees as portals, according to the board. I have since looked up the word "Fabile" many times in books and on the net and the most striking and amusing thing about it is that the closest translation seems to be "Fable" - a fabled text called The Fabled Text - in other words, fictional but teaching a lesson - such as to use critical thinking when dealing with a Ouija Board. =)


I don't recall the tree session, it was very short. Raven was the guide of the 34 year old of the group and would signal its presence by 'flying' around the board in an infinity symbol pattern while waiting for a question or while thinking or conferring with someone else on the Other Side, apparently.


After Thanksiving, there wouldn't be as much football? I really don't know offhand how to answer this - I'd think this would prove to be a developmental tool for everyone of just about any age, plus its interesting and entertaining.

I was asked/appointed by the group to "banish" and/or free "trapped" and/or "dark" nuisance entities which appeared on the board and caused trouble or interrupted other communicants. I'm not sure WHY I was appointed this, other than I had no other real role or guide activity so I got the equivelant of "guard and cleanup duty". As I said before, I believe these things were likely user-created interruptions due to interpersonal conflicts, as one of the users (21) had consciously separated all his "bad traits" from "himself" and NAMED IT, and unsurprisingly, this thing would pop up frequently, even when the user wasn't present.

Hello Anvil! ;-)

(I responded to this once already. Then my pc rebooted for some reason. But then, that's pc's for you isn't it? Damn them! Damn them all to HELL!!! LOL)

hehehe - I actually agree with what you said beforehand, 'you can lead the horse to water, but you can't make him drink'

I tryed to write a detailed post earlier to add to this discussion on why sceptics will probly never find or satisfy what they are looking for objectively/externally - they will always find a reason why it 'can't be' to maybe keep within their 'comfort' zone psychologically - ie sub - concious defences to keep fear or anxiety at bay (because they haven't got the full understanding) - Gosh even now I am not giving this the detail or attention it deserves i hope this skimming of the surface can be understood?

Anyway, I tryed hard to explain from the eyes of someone who is spirtually connected and on a developing path, that subjective experince gives unique insight to objective happenings, like the missing piece of the jigsaw or the mechanic that indirectly keeps your car on the road because you may know how to drive the car but not the inner workings of it. I found i couldn't really do this. Why should or would any skeptic overlooking or refusing the point to develop their own path innerly/spirtually as well as seek the objective clear and cut evidence understand or accept what I say? It would be a waste of time. I came to the realisation that it's only something you can find out for yourself, it's truely is a journey and a very personal one at that. So when i came to the end of my post and hit add reply, I lost my internet connection at the same time and the post got lost for good. Maybe it was ment to be? arrgggg i hear the skeptics cry, hehe so Bob your post was very fitting, I'm not on any quest to prove a skeptic wrong who is only prepared to eat the finnished cake and not learn for themselves how the cake was created. Hopefully this post will make it onto the board this time!

My apologies to all those who worry about long posts. It is not intentional but, when you read these then you can see that both Jpatt and I have plenty to share here that may be of some use to you. So, I ask for your kind patience for both of us. I also ask that you stick with it because, in speaking for myself at any rate, I wont be here forever and so, have no intention of even attempting to make 20 billion and one posts (lol). And so, I ask that you enjoy these whilst you can Ok? This may be the longest post yet - but hey - who's counting? LOL! Thanks a lot - all of you - for sticking this out. It'll be worth it! ;-)

Ok, so, back to work for us...

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Hello Jpatt! ;-)


You know, when we've finished these posts, we've just got to collect them up, stick them in a book and sell it Ok? And you say that you haven't the patience to write books? I think you ought to take a look at your own posts because I think that not only that you can but that you *are* doing so right here. (Easy isn't it? lol)

Ok. Let's have a look...

OMG. I'll try to cut this down to size. I wonder if they'll give us our own forum...


I've never been an outgoing, aggressive leader type, and I was the youngest, so it was "lead" by the 40 year old and the 34 year old - the 40 year old was probably the most 'into' it and believes in ghosts and spirits and shamanism and all that, and the 34 year old was more into herbalism and mysticism and hermetic magic. I was just into parapsychology and poltergeists. I was about the least influential of the group, as the other two had extremely forceful personalities and were very creative. The last thing you would classify our group as would be clones.

Your ideas about the shield and protecting myself from pain and love are interesting and ones I've seen before. While there may be some merit to them, I'm far from convinced, as you might expect. I do have to give you credit for correctly interpreting some of my bias against spirit communication, having to do with my parents and not going with the idea of spirits being stuck/low, etc. Very insightful, I'm impressed.



Seen and really liked Gladiator, cried a few times in fact, but I do that at some emotional parts of movies, including Narnia (yeah, I know, I don't get it either). For some reason, I have a block against movies like Troy. Just never happened to see Schindler's List. Saw parts of Ghandi when I was much younger, don't really remember it. Saw parts of Shawshank Redemption (Freeman's one of my favorite actors). I've made a personal vow not to see Titanic. Saw Sparticus. Not sure about Jesus of Nazareth. Saw part of Roots in school, same with Shaka. I saw Old Yeller when I was young. I saw Beaches. I cried at the end of Armageddon.

I fell out of the habit of reading books a few years back; used to read voraciously, fiction and non-fiction. Haven't read anything long except on the internet and the last long thing I've read is a free PDF of Our Unseen Guest by Darby and Joan from 1925 (a very, very good read and surprisingly similar in some ways to my own view of "God").

On my FAQ page, I gave various interpretations for the Infinity symbol which I got from a number of sources - none are my own; I think like dream symbology, it will vary from person to person, so the best I could do was provide a number of possible 'typical' interpretations.

My analogy of fireproof underwear while scuba-diving was meant as a tongue-in-cheek indication of your win-win situation. You say you take responsibility for steering people wrong if you do - but you DON'T steer them wrong, because you're so good. That's like saying 'If I make a mistake, I'll admit it - but I don't make mistakes'. Its a rather pointless proclamation.

As for my friend's "Raven" Guide, it had a particular name as well, but it claimed to be Raven. As to why a Guide wouldn't be an animal, I am at a loss - if they're on the Other side, they understand things from a more subtle point of view anyway and he mainly acted as mediator for other communicants and board personalities. Right or wrong, true or false, that was what was claimed; I have no idea what the ultimate reality of board personalities are so I take them more or less at face value for their part, with the understood condition that I don't necessarily believe ANY of them.

You say people can't have animals as Guides and you can only have one - I've read a number of books and personal accounts which are at odds with your claim, if I even believe there IS such a thing as a Guide - how do you explain this? Native Americans had and have a number of different totems, some are major or primary, some are minor and relate to a certain phase of life, some are 'Shadow Totems', representing your fears and shortcomings (not necessarily BAD just basically your alter-ego). I fail to see why you could not have more than one Guide.


No. Telepathy is mind-to-mind communication, while clairvoyance is remote perception by one person not requiring a counterpart. And the 'standard' idea of both involves only the living. If a psychic with actual telepathic ability tells you your grandmother's maiden name, which you didn't even consciously remember, this is proof of telepathy, not survival.

And so here yet again is my 'shield' you are so fond of criticizing. What would convince me? I'm not certain if there is anything. I arrived at my conclusions actively as I studied all these subjects, believing in spirits and demons and such to begin with, like most people.

I'm not an atheist, I believe in God and I believe we are components of God and I think the quantum physics theory of particles coexisting in the same place at the same time on different 'levels' of existance and sharing a universal one-ness is integral, but further understanding of this is currently beyond my ability.

The dark nusiances, or rather the first one, related to the person who named his 'dark side', was referred to by the board as it gave its own name, which came up on the board BEFORE he admitted to us what he had done, so I'm quite certain this was a creation of his (the name came up and his jaw dropped and we had to press him to explain why he was so amazed at this name).

One of the guides referred to this 'thing' as a 'shade', which was an interesting, fitting and ominous name, and it would frequently interrupt other communications and even on occasion seemed to 'weaken' and entirely cut-off or even scare off some communicants and guides - often the guides would have to band together and request a few of the board users to 'push' (which consisted of various protective light-related visualizations), to help reject the thing temporarily.

Once we realized what was going on, it was agreed not to speak its name or pay it any attention other than to reject it, and the 'owner' was instructed that he needed to understand and accept his 'dark traits' (as he saw them) as well as his good qualities, in order to be a whole person. At some point, presumably this occurred.

You say we cannot 'banish' things, yet you talk about being more powerful than any negative influences you've come into contact with, so your words seem at odds. I do not know what was going on, but as I'm not convinced there WERE any 'bad spirits' to banish to begin with, this only supports my idea these things were more or less an unconscious impromptu group creation, much like the Phillip experiment. A Polaroid camera was kept on hand as a backup safety measures, as its bright flash seemed to 'drive' off the 'bad things', according to other members of the group. This was all 'I'll take your word for it' for me. Was I frightened when they were? Yes, because here were two otherwise rational adults, much older than I, quite visibly disturbed by words being spelled out on the board - one even claimed to have glimpsed this shade in his yard in our hometown 30 minutes away.

The younger 32 year old brother was 'slain in the spirit' and fell to the ground in a church he was attending, and had a vision of his spirit guide standing over him - IN church. He became very freaked out and didn't visit again for months. But he's the one with the emotional instability.

We were directly across the two-lane street from the town's largest cemetery, so I'm surprised we didn't have much more activity on the board than we did - some nights it didn't work at all. We started getting seemingly 'random' spirits who were always lost, trapped or confused and in darkness, sometimes more than one at a time, though they couldn't see each other, and claimed to be drawn to the board, which appeared to them as a light, and we as differing colors of light around it. But their ignorance kept them from seeing each OTHER, even though we were talking to two or more 'people' at once right there in the same 'place' (for lack of a better word), because their existance consisted only of what they knew, and they were confused and lost, so all they saw was darkness. I would basically speak to the 'lost souls' and do a sort of 'freeing' ritual, indicating they look around for a bright, comforting light (which appeared, because they were then aware of it) which was where they needed to go to proceed to the next part of their journey - they'd see their own guides and loved ones, etc.

I'm of the opinion that things the other people were reading at the time (more books about ghosts, spirits, shamanism, Edith Fiore's the Unquiet Dead, etc) were directly responsible for the 'evolution' of the results we were getting from the Ouija board, which indicates to me that the events which occurred were all user-created, just as skeptics have always said - they basically let their imagination get away with them.

cool this thread is good!

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here!




From personal experince, I disagree that clairvoyance only involves the living nor requires a counterpart. When it comes to communicating with spirit I am clairvoyant, the dialouge that is shared is mainly visual. Appearance, words, expressions and feelings are placed visually. I recieve in this manner and can 'talk' back in this manner. It is a 2 way exchange just like any other type of conversation. At times I have been shown through the eyes of a spirit. Say like a house they lived in, they will show it to me as they saw/see/remember. What the rooms looked like, the decoration etc. I know the sight is coming via them because I haven't got the free will to 'look' around for myself or get there without them. I see what they want me to see. Had a few interesting times where I was shown around the same house inside over 2 different time periods. Also distance doesn't come in to it.

Without the spirit link I can't see remotely, I don't class myself as telepathic either as i have no idea what others are thinking ever. All info received is from spirit and I can mostly always see clearly who that spirit is. To me it's just like talking to a non english speaking person in their native langauge that you happen to know as a second langauge. You will translate always back into your mother tounge to make sense of it.

I'm not saying that telepathy doesn't exist or that there isn't other types of remote viewing where perhaps a spirit link isn't required. All I'm pointing out is it's wrong to assume that ALL clairvoyance happens this way.

hi.....was browsing thru some of the discussions here......wondering a little bit.......in fact....there is one truth to all this, we as a race are rather ignorant, hopless, and pathetic......we thrive off what others think, say, or better yet write in books...then we carry that around and protect it like it's our own. This is the way we learn. In my humble opionion.....the only way for advancement is to first off *listen* to many other ideas, practise it, there fore experience it ,and then our statements can carry some valitity.

Experience is science, the truth is knowledge and how is it that we sitting here floating on a planet in space and not knowing what is out there, cause we cant see it, think we know anything? How rude to is that ? We really dont know anything, and until we listen and try it out and come face to face with it, we never will. From what i read here, Bob, is giving us a million reasons why we should. I would think, alot of people on the other side....., obviously some have talked with something have they not?? and they do speak!.......ehhm........they are probably thinking, *sheesh dumb twat* why he bothering anyhow.......*dumb sh** thinks he knows the meaning of life already* lol........and on that note, how bloody rude to not want to talk to loved ones.....or even not allow it....not want it.........good grief you arrogant LOSER!!! Do you have many friends now? doubt it........for all his loved ones that are reading this now.........Sorry!!!! just couldnt get past that one myself.

So instead of mooping around and claiming this and that, why not get a little advancement yourself and talk and learn from the real world(and that is not yours by the way).....experience them, learn from them, ask them.......they are living a life not unlike your own..(but bigger, more real).....and perhaps when you get there, they wont kick your ass!! you have been given a big gift, a gift of being able to get past all the negative created by man,you have been able to sort of step outside of the box.....well do it then, go farther, dig deeper........bring something back with you that will help us *all*.

Hello Jpatt! ;-)

Let's get straight to it...

You:

...The last thing you would classify our group as would be clones.

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Me:

In which case and, in now understanding further your experiences here, I know exactly what has happened to you. I know this because the same has happened to both my eldest daughters and why they, even to this day, take what I do with a pinch of salt.

You see, it all hangs on one thing only namely, 'proof'. This is not generalised - generic proof - but a deeply personal one and personal only to you.

When you are the last in line for it (as it were) and the youngest, your proof will be some time coming. Also, when we get older, not only have we lived a bit but that we also have more to draw on from our schema (life experiences) to glean this proof from. Apart from this, since, by your own admission, you don't put yourself out there too well, those on the other side will also assume that you don't require proof or will override your need for the stronger members within your group.

You see, the problem is that, when we have done this for a while, most of those we attract around us not only leave their trace but will also leave behind, information about this group as a whole. Apart from others things such as your character as a group, your level of understanding, force and power etc, part of this information will include how long your sessions will normally last. Most practitioners tend to hold sessions between say, two to four ho