If we are talking froma Biblical perspective here, than NO GOd doesnt create ppl that will go to Hell. Thats Calvinism doctrine.

God gave the ppl free will, the knowledge between right and wrong, and if soemoen ends up in Hell they can only blame themselves.

To say God creates ppl that go to Hell , is not only hidding from your own resposibility as a human beeing, but also blaming someoen else for the screwups you make.

LOL.

tell that to adam and eve who doesn't know what is right from wrong.

What makes you believe that "Free Will" exists? Are you a advocate of Existentialism or Casuality? Perhaps Compatibilitism?

If you're going to argue that God is "innocent" because Humans have this mysterious thing called "Free Will" then please post your reasoning. At least try to logicially neccesitate your position.

you may say what you want to say but i am not agreeing with you. who made the bible if i may ask? people who are capable of making mistakes.....now who revise the same and continue giving new versions to the bible? and why? even if you will enumerate all the passages of the bible i wouldn't care.

another question...have you been to hell and back? it seems that you really know what really is the meaning of "hell" and what kind of place it is...tsk tsk... people who lived most of their lives because of poverty or war will in one way or the other think that they are already in hell. what more can you ask for? and why do they suffer? was it their fault? and where is god at that moment? don't give me the reason saying that there is a purpose for all of that? innocent children suffers...survival of the fittest to live, will that make a person a sinner?

just my two cents...as long as i am not doing any harm to anyone thats about it. as long as i am able to help other people in my own little way thats fine with me...but to be imprisoned by rules and passages of the unknown is just too much...i think im going to puke....lol

Interesting. Everyone is avoiding the topic of "Free Will," even though that is perhaps the most crucial part of this discussion/debate/argument.

tell that to osama bin laden

If God is so good, then how could He allow people to go to hell? Hell seems so inconsistent with the character of God. Why not send everyone to heaven? To answer this question properly a number of points should be made.

1. Hell Not Prepared For Humanity

First, we must recognize that God did not make hell for humanity. The Bible says that hell was prepared for the Devil and his angels. Jesus said.
Then He [God] will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41).

Hell was not part of God's original creation. It was only made after the angelic fall.

2. Made For Eternity

Each of us has been made for eternity.
He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of humans; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end (Ecclesiastes 3:11).

There is no destruction of the human soul or spirit. All of us will have to spend eternity somewhere.

3. Nowhere Else To Go

Since we have been made for eternity, and certain people have rejected heaven, there is nowhere else for them to go. Hell, by definition, is the total absence of God. When God's offer of forgiveness is rejected, then they must go to a place which is away from His goodness.

4. God Sends No One

It cannot be stressed too strongly that God sends no one to hell, or everlasting punishment. People go to hell because of their willful rejection of Christ, not because of God's desire. The Bible says of God.
Who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4).

Peter wrote.

The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9).

Those who go to hell have rejected Christ and His message.

Summary

Go does not send anyone to hell. Each of us have been made for eternity and there is some place we must go after death. If someone rejects God's free gift of salvation, then they must be sent away from His presence. The Bible says that this place is hell. Though God originally created hell for the Devil and his angels, wicked humanity will send themselves there for not believing God's promises.

By Don Stewart

Wrong... Eve knew she wasnt alloed to "eat from the tree", but she did it, because she was told she would BE AS GOD. She disobeid the rules of the game and got puniches for it .. like everyone else.




hmmm... what makes me believ that free will exists ? The simple fact that I choose when I get out of bed, wheather i wan to go to work or not, if i should on my husband today or tomorrow of maybe never... if i should have kids or not or simply if I should naswer your question or not.

THATS free will.. and its not msyterious at all, its how life is... when you are hungry you choose what to eat or if you wnat to diet... Are you intending to tell me that whatever you do is "God's fault" ?? LOL that is a good way of surgfing rhou life...

"I didnt rape anyone, God made me do it." "I didnt steal anything, God made me do it"... but off course in the good cases... "I wona Nobel Price, God had nothing to do with it" ... funny, aint it ?

As to your other question, what am I advocating... im simply advocating RESPOSIBILITY, wich is something ppl hate ... noone wants to be resposible for nothing these days.

Its either "Satan made me do it"... or simply "God made me this way, its not my fault".

Right... tell that to the mothers of drunk driving victims... tell them that Satan made you drink, or that God made you a drunk.... LOL

Thanks Infrazel! Sometimes I can be a bit overbearing in my convictions, but I really don't mean any harm by it. Just stating my opinion to those that downplay the significance of Theology; namely Christianity!

.... this is a sad statement... i can say that you are doinga s amuch arm to "societey: with mean statements like this and any other organized religion idiot. Serisouly...whos to say that you are more inetelligent than anyone else ? Inteligent people are usually recognised by their intelegence... they dont have to go around blowing their on horn.

also remember that Religion has nothing to do with God. Religion was created by some ppl to control other poepl who like to be controled. God never told anyone to go and cheat ppl out of their money in my name, now, did He ?

LOL...talking bout religion eh he he....funny...

I agree 100% ...religion divides people. it is simply not the answer and the doctrines? what the hell are these doctrines about? everyone can write their own doctrines(for the doctrine clouded people only!)

[quote name='baastetnoir' date='Apr 11 2006, 08:42 AM' post='1141872']
Wrong... Eve knew she wasnt alloed to "eat from the tree", but she did it, because she was told she would BE AS GOD. She disobeid the rules of the game and got puniches for it .. like everyone else.

she wasn't allowed? she doesn't even know what is right from wrong. its like my previous post and i quote... a child does not know what is good or bad for him. if we, parents are responsible enough to our children we are not going to show them a knife and tell them not to even come close to it. a 2 year old child will never understand...and that's what happened...the question simply is...why did god put the damn tree and the serpent in the garden of eden when in fact if he loves his creation would not want to even come close to any harm? what is the reason? FREE WILL? thats absurd...free will will work only if we have the knowledge of what is right and wrong, there and then we make a choice, if not, then human beings can be rightfully called stupid for not thinking.

As I've said earlier - I have come to the conclusion that freewill is not a concept supported within the Bible. But then, predestination is not supported either. It's a (relatively) recent concept, for a relatively modern era.

Regards, PA

I just want to say that references to people with religious beliefs as 'less intelligent' than others are not welcome here.

We ask that participants of this board respect the beliefs of others, whether or not you believe in them yourself.

Ummmm. . . . . . those are matters of opinion, not a logical necessitation. Shall I refrain from discussing said topic(s) [free will, determinism, casuality, existentialism, etc.] with you until you have a logical understanding of said topic(s)?

I think I will.

And I don't even try to start destroying your silly notion of "Free Will." It'll be a waste of my time and energy; I have a job and hobbies to attend to.

Oh sorry, I should've made my statement clearer. I really apologize for my lack of words, or my crappy choice or words lol.

I was alluding to the very NATURE of "Free Will." After pondering the topic for days on end and researching into it, I have essentially concluded that "Free Will" is a LOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY.



Of course, if people actually realized that fact, the world will be in Chaos.

So guys, keep it up with your "Free Will." Remember . . . . As long as God's in his Heaven, all's right with the World.

Sad? Sad?!? You have really just made my day. You obviously never read any of my posts regarding my choice in. . . . . . "tools." Although what I choose to "follow" is more of an . . . . . "Algorithm" or "Theory."

Have fun with your indoctrination; I'm sure you're a "good" person trying to help the world. If you keep this going, I'll probably be able to succeed in creating my own religion and getting followers to do my bidding.

Thanks religion; you've inspired me for GREATNESS.

I wonder how old are you ... menatl age that is... you must be young., all that arrogance and ignorance usually come from young ppl who think they know wverything. Good for you... now tell me... when you decide to "refrain yourself from" talking to aperson with "less udnerstanding" of the above topics... did you choose tor efrain youself or did God or Satan made you do it ???


Free will does exist, its yours... ppl who are not affraid of responsibilty accept that, others who wish to surf throu life blaming everyone else for their screws-ups (God and "satan" included)... No "free-will" and claiming free will is a "silly" notion is simply the cowards way out.

Now go tell God to refrain you from replying to this.

Chopsticks


'What are the differences between Heaven and Hell?', a young Zen monk asked an aged Buddhist priest who was reknowned for his wisdom.
'There are no material differences,' replied the old monk.

'None at all?' asked the puzzled young monk.

'That's right. Both Heaven and Hell have a spacious hall with a big pot in the center in which noodles are boiled, giving off a delicious scent,' said the old priest. 'The size of the huge pan, the number of people sitting around the pot and the bowl of sauce placed in front of each diner are the same in both places.'

'The odd thing is that each diner is given a pair of meter-long chopsticks and must use them to eat the noodles.'

'To eat the noodles, you must hold the chopsticks properly at their ends,' the old monk told the young Zen monk.

'In the case of Hell's kitchen, people are always hungry because no matter how hard they try, they can't get the noodles into their mouths,' said the old priest.

'But isn't it the same case for the people in Heaven?' the junior monk inquited.

'No. They can eat because they each feed the person sitting opposite them at the table. That's the difference between Heaven and Hell,' explained the old monk.

^^I've heard a variation on that story. It's a good analogy, though slightly flawed - but then again, all analogy's are to some extent

I am 18 years old; if you actually checked my profile, you would have known.

Arrogance? Ignorance? Dear, I was a die-hard Christian for approximately 8 years before discovering how silly and idiotic that entire notion was.

About myself "refraining" from talking. . . . hmmmmmmmmm. . . . nice try, but you still fail utterly. A vaguely interesting attempt to rouse my anger perhaps? Emotions? God and Satan and non-existent sweetheart. Stop living in your little dream world.

As far whether I "chose" anything - NO. I will not contradict myself on any points. I don't have free will either dear.


But this is where the fun truly begins:



This is not even an argument my dear; it is your point-of-view, which is neither necessitated via logic nor physical laws. Please read again: Use logic to back up what you have to say.



What does "cowardice" have to do with anything? I said the concept of "Free Will" is an ILLOGICAL IMPOSSIBILITY -- it has nothign to do with bravery, cowardice, etc.

Why are you bringing unrelated topics to our little chat?

I am not a regular on this forum but I wanted to add my 2 cents in on this protracted discussion of HELL. This planet has thousands of different religions many of which have hundreds of sub-sects. The belief systems promoted range all over the spectrum. Only one can be right and thousands are wrong? Or, NONE ARE RIGHT!

Millions have been tortured and killed because of these religions.

Religions claim a monopoly on truth which should be the first sign of trouble.

Religions claim that there followers are “chosen”, a second sigh of trouble.

Religions are CULTURAL MEMES designed to control people.

WAKE UP, this is not the Bronze Age or the middle ages. The universe was created with a divine order that will only yield its secrets to beings who rise above the artificial religious constructs that ignorant mankind revels in creating.

There IS NO HELL, except the one that imprisons mans GOD GIVEN spiritual nature.


Sticks

What makes you think that the universe has any sort of "divine order" at all?

Questions like this are an example of why faith plays a major role in all religions. We can not prove anything, we can only assume what God's motives are, assuming if God even has motives or is an active participant in shaping existence.

Very well said Arty wow

Thanks, I used the wrong roll though(role) , I fixed it.

Hey there, I give you props for admitting that you can't "prove" God's existence.

If you accept him purely on faith, fine. I'm not going to bash you or anything.

But if you say you have "proof" then bring it forward. By provinding "examples" of why Earth sustains life, why we're not all dead, or how perfect our Solar System is, the exactness of the Sun's rays, etc, is NOT PROOF.

Again, good for you.

Infrazael, anyone on this planet that believes in a higher being is not necessarily a person being controlled or a weakminded person that needs a crutch to get through life, sometimes we all need something bigger than any of us to comfort us when it gets rough. I'll Admit that anyone who believes in ANY higher power is a person believing with faith alone since you cannot meet this diety before you pass away. I have not read your stand on a higher power, but from what I have read it appears you do not believe in any. How do you think all this came to be? What Do you think could be considered hard proof? What I am asking is would you need to see a diety to believe in it?

I am always confused about this topic. I didnt see a thread on this so I thought it might be a good topic. If God is all knowing, which he is, then he knows who is going to hell right? If he knows who is goign to hell... why create people in his image to be doomed for hell?
This is a confusing topic for me..
And God gave us free will to make our own descions to choose whether or not we go to hell, then he doesn't know who and who won't go to hell? If he doesn't know that would not make him all knowing right? and if he doesn't know who goes to hell, did he limit himself/herself for us to make descions on our own to choose our own fate .. (with a little guidance and intervening from him)?

Any input would be great..

If this is a thread on this already.. Im sorry .. I didnt se eit..

A strong case for the non-existence of freewill. Paul even anticipates such questions as this, when writing his letter that we know today as the book of Romans.

Romans 9:19-23
One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory

For brevity I only quoted these verses, but it's an interesting read from verse 14 onward.

If we remove our preconceptions of what "Hell" is, and that it is not a place of torture and pain and suffering, then there is nothing wrong at all that I see in this.

Just a thought.

Regards, PA

if god is all knowing, then why are we given a choice to believe in him or go to hell?
if god loves us so unconditionally, why punishes us and make us suffer in hell?
if god can create life and human out of thin air..then why does he care we live or die?
who the hell cares.. god doesn't exist.. if he did.. he'd be one bored fella. sitting in his eternal throne...... all this nonsens makes no sense... im going to sleep

It is said that people who don't know about him, don't suffer as bad as the ones who do know about him and turn away.

the people who know about Jesus and turn away, and have a hate towards him for no reason.

First, we were living forever until adam and eve, then we got pain and suffering, we have free will, we truly love God, he won't go to hell.

your parents love you right? but what if you stole something, or did something wrong, they punish you right? they would do something you you to punish you right?

because he isn't heartless and he don't get tired of things like people do, he is PERFECT, in everthing, think about what that means.

He's always doing, he never stops ever.

Bold type above, my reply even a 10 year old would anticipate that question too PA!

underlined type. I'm yer father so shut up!

Again your argument is not coherent PA. Wishy washy woolly pully.

PS how can i keep track of the threads i'm in?

The thread's been merged folks

why punish us and make us suffer in hell? WHo said anything about punishment and Hell? My earlier post, I said if we remove our preconceptions of Hell, we might just understand that it has nothing to do with pain and torture, fire and brimestone.

Without everlasting torment and pain, the idea of heaven and hell suddenly become a lot different, I think.

Perhaps a 10 year old could anticipate it. So why is the question still being asked then?

We know LOL its a bit of a dead give away in the title


See's PA coming in the distance

Touche

that makes sense. you said that they don't suffer as bad... but if they dont know him at all.. why should they suffer in the first place?

I agree.. we might.. so PA .. do you think there is a hell? what is ur perception of hell? something like hell on earth perhaps?

maybe pa's hell is like disneyland, but the lines are infinite.

Ok. Hell is a hole in the ground (a grave). We are all destined for that. It's the second death that most people refer to when they talk of heaven or hell. Once we pass through that last judgement, we are either going to ahve everlasting life, or go to that second death. Second death is about as literal as you can get. No eternal punishment. No fiery torture. Just non-existence.

God is Life, IMO, so to be cut off from that which gives life is to be dead. Simple as that.

That's my opinion, and I know I could be wrong, but it makes sense to me at this point.

Regards, PA

I change my last response. This is the right answer