My attutitude
And, you as an athiest, or as a agnostic, or a thiest, w.e you are..... seems to be filled with hate. And IMO i agree with the quote.." If you know not God, you know not love because God is love."

Sorry stellar.... i read your posts before, you definitly can stand your ground in a fight with words. The pen is mightier than the sword, we both know. Tis admirable to see your battles... however.... you are especially right about one thing, the proof of mine and others using religious experience is immeasurable, hence isn't scientific proof. I wish it was.

Alright. I guess I must be filled with hate in order to disagree with you that your "experience" is proof of a soul. Which one of us was it that braught hate into this, hmm?



I'd like to see whoever believes that get into a swordfight...



Hmm? Its not any proof that is immesurable, its the experience that is immesurable as proof.

Your opinions are filled with hate... IMO

The pen can start a war, the sword is the tool used for peasents to fight. (i knew you would comment on that) LOL!

Yes, but hopefully there will be a device of some sort to measure it one day.

Exactly why you seem egotistical. You seem to think that me not agreeing with you, and me being an atheist makes me filled with hate. Hate is a bad thing, therefor that belief makes you feel superior.



I know you would to, heh.

Key word "seem". Things can be decieving. Im not trying to make myself seem greater than you.

Face it! Your opinions are almost ALWAYS pessimistic lol!

Don't try to pin this on me.

Let's take this step by step.

1. We are living, breathing, thinking beings.
2. when we sleep our consciousness is shut off, therefor our body does not need to be conscious to function.
3. we can think independantly from our body.
4. therefor, consciousness is seperate from the body.
5. By following this line of thought, if our body dies our consciousness could possibly go on independantly.
6. the soul lives on.

So by being conscious and able to think, is this proof enough that the soul exists?

It is enough for some... not for most skeptics.

Well, you're the one who started with the "you seem to be filled with hate"...



Pessimistic? I dont see it as pessimistic whatsoever. How is believing that that theres no proof of a soul pessimistic?



Let me stop you there... What do you mean?

Let me stop you there... What do you mean?
[/quote]
Let's say your out driving. Are you 100% focused on the driving of your car or do you think of something else when you drive? Independant thought from the task at hand. If our body can function without conscious thought, then it only stands to reason, that we are able to think independant from our body, that conscious thought could exist without the body.

Now you're jumping to conclusions. In now way does multitasking (basically) support the conclusion that consciousness is not part of the body.

Stellar... who do you believe in?

Is it just yourself? Your ego? Your country? God? Buddah, Jah, jehova, jesus, gaia, allah? The Almighty? Satan...? Oneness or anytype? Scientological Alens? Science ?

One must believe in something!

No one doesn't.

If our bodies can exist without any conscious thought, then conversely conscious thought must be able to exist without the body.

The analogy i gave previously was just an example of thought being independant from the bodies actions. Not proof for the existence of the soul.

Stellar the loss of weight is instantaneous (and or within minutes) so what are you talking so much about?? No time for decay to occur and no time for chemical changes to occur......as far as the worms the loss of weight was also instantaneous and as far as any potential change that can occur instantaneously (that modern science knows nothing about) that was ruled out by the fact that the worms were in a sealed environment. As far as MacDougall's aspirations that is irrelevant, especially in light of the new evidence (the worms) and as far as Stern read above if you are still wondering why he obviously is in denial.....

Facts are facts this experiment with exception of the above mentioned worms has never been repeated, so one has ever denied the validity of these responses using valid and verifiable methodologies.

As far as your claim that I am fabricating a response in relation to this event being unexplained that is way over the top. Do you know how long it takes for decay to
begin in a human body at death??

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/...since_death.htm

The point is very clear Stellar no known reason exists for the loss of weight unless one takes into consideration that the soul takes up space.....This taking into consideration the state of the art in forensic technology this year of out Lord 2006….

Any thoughts?

Our bodies can exist without arms and legs, but our arms and legs cannot exist without our bodies...

I can;t see how we can even call that conciousness, when the physical part that actually percieves the world and translates it, is absent.

First of all, that was a beautiful logical statement Jaguar Guardian, however I have to support Stellar on this.

Kaknelson, your petty argument is bringing this thread nowhere but backwards. You do nothing but discredit alternative possibilities and apparently have no comprehension of logic beyond the word "because". Logic and Science are far different things, although Science uses logical, rational, and hopefully intrinsic methods of objectivity and testing to reach a conclusion.

You claim that your experience is proof of the soul, and by your actions, it is clear you believe that we should also understand that your experience is proof of the soul and, in turn, that your beliefs are therefore accurate. What you fail to take into consideration is the need that others have for tangible proof with the least bias possible before most will consider a personal experience to be proof of something. Many people would like to have a personal experience of their own. If you look to prove your experience, post proof. Otherwise, you're making yourself look like little more than a fool putting faith in experience altered by false memories.

So Kaknelson, please present proof if you are attempting to prove something to us. Otherwise, your statements in this thread serve no purpose and your beliefs are meaningless to us. If you fight to defend and prove yourself, use proof: that is the inherent purpose of proving.

On a side note, one does not have to be religious to have opinions or ideas on the soul and similar spiritual or metaphysical things. To answer your question before you jump to more insults and callow conclusions, I believe in my theory that amalgamates Science and Spirituality to describe a wholeness I have termed Infinite Singularity. This singularity is simply matter and possibility, not anything personal or humanlike. I've got a thread in the "Mysteries of the Mind, Space & Time" section if you are interested.

In a retort to the previous statements:

"Our bodies can exist without arms and legs, but our arms and legs cannot exist without our bodies..."

"I can;t see how we can even call that conciousness, when the physical part that actually percieves the world and translates it, is absent."

I take your point about the arms and legs, but consider this. In a dream, our senses perceive stimuli that seem real, but do not actually exist. Ergo, we cannot rely on the data of the senses as necessarily true. It then stands to reason that our senses can deceive us from knowing the true nature of reality. Given these possibilities, what can we know for certain?

We can know that if our senses can decieve us, then surely we must exist. Otherwise known as cogito ergo sum, ("I think, therefore I am"). But in what form? We percieve our body through the use of the senses; however, we have concluded that they are unreliable. So we can conclude that the only undoubtable knowledge is that weare a thinking thing. Ergo, thinking is the only thing about us that cannot be doubted. Perception it seems is everything.

We view the mind and body to be completely whole things. On one hand you have your mind and on the other, the body. When we clearly and distinctly perceive mind and body to be complete, we know that they are substances. When we still clearly and distinctly perceive them to be substances after clearly and distinctly perceiving them apart from each other, we know that they are not the same substance under different descriptions. So mind and body are ontologically independent substances, and their distinctness consists in their ability to continue to exist even after Seperation (death). If the mind can exist after Death, then this by reason of logic can be perceived as a soul.

Indee my whole point. How can we know for certain that any of this "astral projection" or that religious experience is not simply taking place in our minds...

Not true Bio-Mage what taking into consideration the Quantum potential... you are out of you league find some other forum where those present live up to your inappropriate response.


Stellar how can I put this in a way you can understand??? You need Adult Diapers.....

Any thoughts?

You... psychologist(maybe)...quantum potential ...physics

What league are you on about? Stellar does not need diapers...you need a muzzle.

It seems like you have nothing to counter my points with. Once again Triad loses the battle and attempts to escape the firefight into the dark shadows of defeat.

(Like that Triad? I tried your writing style...)

That was out of line Triad. Please do not sink to the level of telling someone they need diapers, it isn't nice regardless of how many smilies you put after it. Please stick to the topic and avoid personal attacks. Thank you.

[color=#000099]Rosemary, so what about reincarnation, heaven and hell etc? Are they to be found in the spirit world? Or is the spirit world just a place where people remain before they move on to more permanent things? I should be most interested in your views on this matter!

There are countless stories of near death experiences, out of body experiences and past life regression through hypnosis showing that the soul is real.

Yes, personal experience with the lack of tangible proof for others to study beyond claims most likely laced with false memories.

How do you know all of them arent simply fabricated by your mind, much like a dream is...?

lol.. I'm a lazy person.. I hate debating and then go looking for things to back up my claim but.. There are many stories about how people regress past lives, and the things they said checked out to be accurate. They can't all be false memories if what they were able to regress actually happened. Could they have made it up in their minds? well.. I don't know.. But could those hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of stories of NDE, OBE, past life regression all be fake? IMO I don't believe so..

"Yes, personal experience with the lack of tangible proof for others to study beyond claims"

Yes they aren't tangible evidences of a soul, but personal experiences is what makes us wiser, right? We can't discard their personal experiences to be fake, simply because we ourselves have not yet experienced it.

I am currently reading a book by Michael Newton, PH. D. He is a hypnotherapist and was also once a skeptic about hypnosis and metaphysical regressions. But as he continued his work, he began to see people truely did have many lives in the past. You can check out his books, if you would like to learn more about the soul.

That being said, these stories of people regressing always end up having been someone popular in their past life (say, Cleopatra), of which information is abundant and thus is not suprising that the info is accurate, or they were some unknown person in their past life, who can not be even proven to have existed.

How many people were Cleopatra in their past life, hmm? I've heard of plenty of people who've gone to do such a past life regression and ended up believing to be Cleopatra.



Indeed they can be. If I were to go and do past life regression and, say, I could more or less accurately describe stuff that happened to Patton, that doesnt mean that I was Patton in some past life. The whole regression could have been a dream, based on my knowledge of Patton.



Past life regressions are notoriously unreliable. As for NDEs and OBEs, well, as I believe, they are all fabricated in the mind to comfort the person right before the possible death. Its not fake, but its not truely an OBE if it takes place in the mind.



You're not getting any wiser by believing that personal experiences which cannot be verified can be proof.

Tsk Tsk Tsk.

One cannot prove if or if not it exists. This i have found. There is no method of measurement.
And, some proof just isn't suitable for others... we can sit and argue all day in a circle... never drawing a valid conclusion.

Acceptable Fluffybunny and I apologize for that remark to Stellar it had been a long day and I was a little wired.......Something really bad happened and perhaps I should have waited another day before I logged on.

Glad you enjoy my style Stellar although let me be clear I did respond to your post and if you check you will see so (page 8 post # 115)

Bio-Mage states


I have never needed a muzzle I am a human being not a dog, so while I am not perfect I do have the capacity to admit my mistakes when I make them (as is apparent not all humans have that ability). I am not a psychologist I am qualified as a therapist (M.A.) and just over a year ago I had an accident (not my fault); in order to repair the injures I needed surgery and I just learned earlier this week that the doctor to who worked on me.........it’s a long story .

Bio-Mage in respect to Quantum Potentials I also made a comment in relation to that in this thread human being are made of matter....it does not only express itself as a particle and as such a lost of weight at the time of death, given what I know about physics is quite intriguing.......

Any thoughts?

Stellar still waiting for your response to my post?????

Any thoughts?

I was making a reference to the fact that, over time, the body does decay and there is weight loss there, because I didnt want anyone to mistakenly think Im saying the body doesnt lose any weight at all after death. As for the weight loss you're talking about, read MY posts, not only have I clearly stated that you can not isolate the exact moment of death (thus you can not guage whether the weight loss is instant), but I've already answered the whole experiment aswell.



Source for the worm experience, plz.



One has never confirmed it using valid and verifiable methodologies.



Assuming that the loss of weight occures, and it is indeed a soul, that would mean that the soul has mass. Having mass, it must occupy space inside the body. Hell, it has to occupy ~21g of it, according to one "experiment". So where is it? Being that this soul is matter, it would mean it could be confined... say... in a can, such as in the worm experiment. What state is it in? What chemicals compose it? If it is a gas, what makes you believe that this gas is anything special?

The source for the "worms" is included in the links I have provided in this thread (page 2 post 26). The exact moment of death is isolated every day throughout the world in hospitals; it is the time efforts to resuscitate stops.

As far as where the soul is, clearly neurological aspects of the human form would be the issue....it is really very simple Stellar, human philology being made of matter has an inherent wave aspect, as does all other matter in the Universe.........

No one has ever denied its validity using valid and verifiable methodologies I submit that this has not been done because the experiment works as verified by the study done on worms....

Any thoughts?

This is not true. Matter of fact, I never heard anyone who had a past life regression, claim to be someone well known in a past life.




There was a documented case about a little girl, who remembered dying in a fire in a previous life. She recalled where her old house was located at and who her past life family members were. When they checked out what she said, they found out there was really a fire at that location and the people who died in the fire were the names she had given. Now how is it possible for a child to have accurate information about a family who died in a fire, where the house were, and the names of the family before she was even born?

"Past life regressions are notoriously unreliable. As for NDEs and OBEs, well, as I believe, they are all fabricated in the mind to comfort the person right before the possible death. Its not fake, but its not truely an OBE if it takes place in the mind."

These are your opionions, but I suggest you do a little more research on these subjects before you ground yourself on these beliefs. There are people who had OBEs while dying on the hospital bed, that could see and hear everything while they were out of their body. When they regained consciousness, they could tell the nurses and doctors what they said and what they were doing while they were passed out.


"You're not getting any wiser by believing that personal experiences which cannot be verified can be proof."

No, but I've had my own personal experiences which leads me to believe the soul is real.

Are you for real? Youve never heard of anyone claim they were a famous person in their "past life"? Ill grab a few links for you when I get home then... but in turn, plz grab me a few links which prove beyond a reasonable doubt that people actually lived past lives...



It is absolutely possible, with that little amount of info given. Give me the source and Ill look into it and give you a list of possible reasons for it.



Indeed they are myopinions, and I have clearly indicated that... others in this thread have not, however, indicated that their beliefs are beliefs and not fact...



Of course. I dont believe like you do, therefore I need to do more research.




Point being? I have, in my dreams, heard people around me aswell, there is nothing supernatural about it. During these "OBE"s, the brain is still functioning and capable of tying in the sounds around the body into a dream if infact there is a dream.



Good, then thats what you believe. It is not, however, fact, and this thread is about proof of the soul.

We tend to think of the human form from the context of how we see it, but doing so is no different than looking at a glacier on the surface of a body of water. Human being and animals are unique, in that they generate an electro-magnetic field, that because of
the processes inherent in the nervous system is ordered (or organized) in a certain way.

The order has an origin (as do all things) and however one may believe, in relation to such an origin, one thing is for certain, its nature is part of the very things it originated from.

The atoms formed molecules, which allowed for life and it is because of how the atoms are structured, that molecules formed life as we understand, it is simply a way atoms can be organized and allows under the right condition living thinking beings. Now, as I stated in prior responses (in this thread), at the time of death, a loss of mass is apparent and any experiment that has been conducted, in relation to this phenomenon, has revealed the same result. It is within the context of current knowledge (in reality) to state, that beyond any shadow of doubt, all matter in the Universe is interconnected. All one thing, from a valid point of view, that fundamentally, is an orientation to the Universe as we currently understand it. This being a legitimate perspective or point of view, which is inherently
alternate to how we normally perceive reality as functioning.

The question then becomes (given all available data) what is the effect upon matter, as a result of an electro-magnetic field, organized in such a way it generates patterned thought as a result of Creation (however ones beliefs might define that)?

This alternate perspective of reality, by every definition, literally and in every way, presents matter in the Universe from the context of being one thing. In relation to life as we understand it, not only does the rarity of its existence come to mind (we have only found life on earth), but as well is the level of complexity, that being a living thing apparently is.

Quantum Biology is currently a legitimate field of study and in relation to that, living things are established, as a part of the fundamental nature of matter. Now in respect to that reality where do we stand in relation to the topic?

First and foremost, awareness has access to inherent potential energy. Secondly, we cannot, by definition, apply how we perceive reality normally, to the nature of that
access using common conclusions, thirdly, the loss of weight at death that is exists (and
it does) is relatable in every way to the phenomenon of life after death.

We always here that issue about energy not being able to be destroyed and only can be changed? A simple way to understand what happens to humans and animals when they die, is that some of the matter shifts, in orientation, to an inherently wave state.......the event occurs because what makes life possible, is fundamental in nature and as such, so
is the ordered state that that defines an desire to survive. Some at this point might suggests that this would not be impossible, each particle has a wave state and visa-versa, so they are both aspects of the same thing. I would respond that this would be incorrect;
Because of the orientation of the observer, the scale (for lack of a better term) is tipped slightly. At the time of death, those fundamental aspects of mass, that is the basis for consciousness become oriented to a wave like state.

Now this post is getting rather long and so rather than continue it seems appropriate at this time to entertain questions......

Any thoughts?

To the one who asked me if I have been shown Heaven and Hell and the answer is yes.

I have been shown a place in the spirit world where many people are walking about on a Higher Plane and I have been shown some very dismal places where tormented souls are housed.

I know there is a place in the Spirit World where I am told holds the Soul Records and the keeper of the Soul Records has given me looks into the past and the future.

He has on occassion given me the ability to mediate on murdered people for example and I am taken back in time to before the murder happened, and shown who did it and why.

He has shown me earthquakes in the future as far as ten years or more and on one occassion I asked him about missing Teamster Jimmy Hoffa who disappeared in the seventies and i was taken back in time like in a technicolored movie and shown who kidnapped him and who murdered him and even which Mobsters set the hit up.

I meditated on chicago Mobster Giancinnana and saw a man kick the door in and shoot him, and the same man that shot Teamster Jimmy Hoffa shot Sam Giancannca the Chicago Mobster who was shot a number of years ago.

I was also taken back in time and shown prior to the Assassination of president John F. Kennedy and who, and why and I have told the story on some thread here but few believe things like this, because its hard to believe that a Psychic can find out these things.

I know I went a little beyond the question about Heaven or Hell but I also wanted to mention the Akaskic Records and all the information stored because I am told every deed that any of us do in our everyday lives is recorded in that Book of Life.

Rosemary
I see that after all this time you are sticking to your story that you can time travel,talk to the dead...and not just any old dead but very important dead,and you are made privy to important stuff like who killed JFK etc....
I challenge you to start a thread which can prove your abilities
Start a thread and bring some piece of information to any one of the members on here which has come from a passd on relative or friend...something which can be verified by the member ....I mean if you can know who killed Sam Giancanna and Kennedy and you have been shown Heaven and Hell ....Surely one small piece of information pertaining to any one of the thousands of members on here shouldnt be a problem .....Should it ?

The things I have done in the past are all dated and timed, but the problem I am having since I began writing on Unexplained mysteries and earlier on the Skptics Forum and people ask me to prove something, these four Evil Possessing Spirits have begun tearing at my brain day and night and its impossible for me to do much of anything along these lines now.
I know that sounds like an Excuse but its not.
I am not sure how to get them out of my body o if I ever will and even if I do, I am not sure if the things they have been doing to my brain may have damaged it, I know that was their intentions.
The things about Sam Giancanna and Kennedy and things like that I never asked for they just came to me as I was meditating and I would write them down.
I am not a Psychic who can give cold readings and stand up in Church and give messages and things like that and never have been able to do that.
There are all sorts of Psychics and the things I get are just things that the Akaskic Records passes on to me when they want to I suppose.

Bogeyman and rosemary, the above quote and reply are completely off topic, if you wish to discuss personal matters between yourselves do so via PM.

Rest of link....

Like I said, it is simple to understand why the loss of weight at or very near the time of death, is related to the soul......

Any thoughts?

Nice gift.

Rest of link....

For the record this is a meta-analysis.....

Any thgoughts?

There is body, mind and voice,both inner and outer. I have heard many stories, most of them being told by the religionist's and when I say religionist's, I mean those people who want to spread their horror fantasy's of control. The religionist's, in self defense of their "faith" and "beliefs" call others who reject them and their god pagans,heathens etc... they quickly found out that slaughtering them was not enough, that the surviving children of their enemy's, even after being mentaly and physicly abused through the rest of their childhoods under the guise of "disipline" {formal aknowledgement of torture to make others do as and think as they do} were turning against them and their god and the ridiculas "law's" they lived by. So the religionist's invented the "soul".

The religionist's of that time were fiercly brutal and the thin patina of peaceful intent of today's religionist's is but a sop to cover their true intention's, which, despite the face they put on it today "have not changed". It was invented to make people scared and to live the empty life devoid of sensuality that the religionist's wanted them to. I could go on because religionist excuses to do what they do are endless. They have had several thousand years to perfect those excuses.

Enough of them, Body, mind and voice is all there is and todays people's, the majority at least, have been fragmented delibrately by the religionist's. All cohesion between those things have been lost due to their effort's. Work on reintergrating those inner and outer parts of you and you will realize that the only "hope" you have ever had was yourself. Children the world over know this, but don't know how to express it and by the time they can, most have been ruined and lost and confused by the intrusion of the religionist mind wipeing machine. Anyway, I hope this helps you.

Hi, just a thought about what your saying in your reply to "is there a soul". First imagine that, with all that you have read about what this page is about, that unexplained is a good title and with that in mind, you must realize most explainations are almost, if not completely in some cases, impossable to define with the everyday dogma we both experiance in this place we call our world. That dogma drives us all further from possable truth's then most will admit and so we are reduced. Here goes, we are body,mind and voice and when we die, we die, all of it. However, the existance of energy parasites is real and they do have intelligence. The absense of the unexplained weight is that they have left your body, after copying it from the womb to your death. you will never know the things they will do to your clone that thinks it's you, which is just as well because you would probably go insane. Anyway, let me know what you think of my idea. Thanks

Caana my impression of the "unknown" is a little different than most, this because of my background which basically treats the paranormal and life after death, as something which is known. But as far as precise definitions that still exist in the realm of the theoretical.

As far the parasites you mention, I actually have been exposed to one particular incident in which something similar was observed, but would not agree with you, when you say that such things are common. As far, as your atheistic views upon life after death I have never found any reason to agree with the idea existence ends at death.

Any thoughts?

It was me who asked the question about Heaven and Hell Rosemary. Thank you for replying. The other part of my question, which perhaps you forgot to answer, was about reincarnation? Where the souls that you saw in Heaven or Hell, there permanently? How did reincarnation fit into the scheme of things as you saw them? As we know in Eastern Religions, Heaven is not the be and end all. Even ones time there is limited! Once again thanks in advance Rosemary, it seems to me that you have been blessed with wonderful gifts!

Psychic gifts are not gifts of God... so they are not a "blessing". They are gifts that are evil in nature, even if they are used to help police in finding a body or the guilty. At least that's what I know as a Christian. I know not everyone agrees so please don't jump me for my info.

I also wanted to comment about the body losing weight at time of death. The soul is a spirit which has no weight so this unexplained weight loss at time of death couldn't be the soul departing.

I'm not sure that animals have souls (I don't think they do) and so with that in mind, the fact that the worm loses weight too at death also tells me that this is not due to the weight of the soul leaving the body.