Hi Ragus let me first say welcome to the forum.....


An opinion that does exist, Ragus, is that if ancient man had understood Quantum physics the spirit would have been defined as a part of the body.

Any thoughts?

Thanks for the welcome.

I have no disagreement that the spirit is part of the body. I just don't think a spirit has weight. Like if you could capture a spirit (ghost or whatever) in a jar... when you weighed the jar, would it then weigh more? In my opinion, it would not, since the spirit doesn't have any physical attributes to it that would cause it to weigh more than the air it's in.

Im reading a book, called the navigator by Eric J. Pepin. It was saying how we do not start out with a soul, it is attained as higher conciousness is attained, ill havta read it agian as i plan to, but it makes perfect sense, as many people are just like educated horses/educated animals.

Ragus having also been raised Christian I understand where you are coming from, but as I have alluded to in this thread I feel that only God having the potential to exist outside reality (as its creator) can be defined as able to exist without substance. Heaven and Earth are representations of the same thing and what is different is the point of view.

Any thoughts?

I agree that God is able to exist without physical substance. But I don't believe that God has weight that can be measured with a scale. I say this because God is in spiritual form, which, as far as I know, is weightless. However, with God's power, I do believe He has the ability to make himself have weight if He so chooses. An example would be if God wanted to physically push down on you, He could (and therefore having weight). I know this whole paragraph sort of contradicts itself but maybe you can see what I mean.

You’re saying that God has the ability to become corporeal if he wishes and I can understand that, but would add, that in my, opinion he is the only form of life, in reality, capable of that feat.

Any thoughts?

Satan is capable of that feat too.
Also I have heard other people say that they've felt physical movement and touches from ghosts (not God or Satan), so in my opinion, all spirits are capable of that feat.

Ragus as far as know history God created Satan as well (the angel Lucifer). I tend to disagree with the idea that anything but God can escape substance and as my sig suggests God (and only God) is more than infinite. That others do feel contact from the "dead" is indicative of mass. Again, my point is that only God can exist as alive, without mass and beyond the laws of physics, any other type of life takes up space and can be weighed.


Any thoughts?

I agree, God created the angel Lucifer (now known as Satan).

I think you and and I are not using the term "substance" in the same light, as I tend to use the word substance synonymous with matter (having physical attributes). The dictionary defines substance as that which has mass and occupies space; matter.

I will have to disagree that only God can exist without mass, as I do believe that Satan and his demons, as well as angels, at times, can exist without mass (being perfectly spiritual and without any physical attributes -- remember, I said "at times" (because I believe that they can have physical attributes at times also).

But still, the question remains on whether a soul actually has weight... because, to me, if it is spiritual (and not physical), then it can't have weight. I've never seen any evidence to support anything spiritual having weight. The experiment with the dying body losing weight or a dying worm losing weight at time of death, to me, does not prove a soul has weight. The weight loss could be caused by a numer of different things. I'm no scientist though, so don't ask me what kind of things. I think there is simply something being overlooked. Something completely logical.

Well, for the record a completely logical point of view, is that the spiritual realm is actually reality, from the perspective of quantum mechanics and as a result life after death, is life after life. Keep in mind ragus that in no way shape or form is this effort on my part to preach or to influence anyone I am just chatting......also I do present relatable data in a prior post in this thread.....


Any thoughts?

The spiritual realm is reality, yes, I agree with that. But I wouldn't classify it under "Logical". I classify it under "Supernatural" because things of spiritual nature usually defy all logic and are, in fact, supernatural.

An analysis of Quantum mechanics reveals clearly, that the rules of how matter operates at the sub-atomic level also defy conventional logic. For example it is now known that electrons (which make up what we define as solidity) have the inherent ability to travel backwards into time (supernatural). There is of course much more than the above and am well prepared to discuss this matter in detail, would also make clear, that I am not without precedent, in relation to how Religions of the world interprets the matter of life after death......

I think I understand that by "Supernatural" you mean beyond nature (i.e. the Universe) however, generally speaking, what has been discovered in relation to quantum mechanics does fit well into the realm of spiritual thinking. Furthermore, it has been proven as a fact
that at the sub-atomic level, matter throughout the Universe is interconnected. Again the original citation was God created Heaven and Earth and what resulted, in my opinion, is akin, to two sides to a coin. In other words, a duality, where mass is observed from different perspectives (i.e. matter and waves).

Either way the matter still has weight.....but how it is represented to an observer is another story. Also to defy all logic would be to be, infinitely random; such a state would be incongruous with life as well as God from what we understand of him.

Now in relation to a link to the relationship between Qauntum Mechanics and Biology....

http://www.roma1.infn.it/rog/group/frasca/b/bj8.html

Any thoughts?

You've made some very good points. I think what it boils down to though, that with the limited knowledge people on earth currently have, we have no real way to provide proof of the soul.

The issue that at the moment of death (or within minutes) a person looses weight cannot be explained by any other means. It is important to take into consideration the state of the art with respect to forensics; literally, there is no way, for any form of life as we understand it to react in such a way at the time of death. One can claim that is can be something else but clearly that is beyond out technology places what it is well within
the frame of understanding related to the human soul.

One has to really appreciate the level of technological knowledge that exist in respect to then issues at hand and the relationships which exist. Saying it simply is not so, in reality
presents an argument, which given how much is known about biology these days, is tenuous at best.

To be clear ragus, it does not boil down to the idea, that we are simply not sophisticated enough to know the difference. Because of our understanding of medicine and forensics we in fact are that sophisticated, so there must be another reason the studies regarding the loss of weight at death have not been explored beyond these two experiments.

What is suggested is that extensive research into the loss of weight at death would provide answers some do not want to know........In fact, that research could already exist and it is being suppressed, because such answers do not fit in with what some want most to know.

It really is very, very, very weird......

Any thoughts?

Why is it, that i can't remember who i was before i was born in my earthly body?

Yes I have proof, and you are the soul, try to sense it my friend, your body is in the material realm and your mental thoughts are in the etheral realm. Simple.

Your inner persona, your innermost sentimentality, coupled with your rigid beliefs and experiences, are that soul.

Your soul is the reason you keep on livin, albeit all those stories about "people selling their souls's to lucifer" yes I've seen cases of that. And that is your proof that a soul is what makes a person's identity, trust me without a soul.. life would be alot less intresting.

The paranormal is just another facet of what the parasite's are and some of what we share. As far as being atheistic, i truly believe that the parasite's have led humanity down the wrong road through their manipulations. The thinking behind both religious and spiritualist thought have many of the same property's.

That their is a progressive order to things and that they bow down to being's of power. The parasite's have made this thinking paramount among those who hold the beliefs and faith's of all the various peoples who hold such belief's, whatever direction you go within those two beliefs in whatever variation, you always have that roadblock put in their thinking.

The only reason why people would be percieved, to not die at their Death's, is that the parasites copy people. The immense energy parasite, that people refer to as their god in all cultures, in whatever name, is meddling with us as a people and that is wrong. If you truly treat the paranormal and life after death as thing's known, but only knowledge known from your impression's here. Then i would have to disagree with you, but that would depend on how long you've actually been here and what you may remember.

However, if those impression's include those made in other place's, then yes, I can follow part of what you mean. The empty one's, when they destroyed this scenario from the beautiful place and people it once was, incorperated the use of the energy parasite's to keep those of humanity who survived in a state of constant struggle, so that we would never realize what has been stolen and denied us.

Anyway, as insulting as i may sound at time's in my desciption's of those thing's, i really do feel sorry for them all. All of us after all, have lost our right to really die. I call them scenario's and i've been through them all. At the end, i learned that it is all pointless. That the empty one's do not ever want us free, they want eternal slave's. The parasite's in this scenario are real and they are more numerous then you may think. Thanks for asking for thought's.

nicole32 states....


Actually in relation to Near Death Experiences, a common theme is that of life flashing before ones eye's. Nicole32, given that one at death remembers ones life’s memories, from the context, of traveling backwards in time how such an experience would be concluded??

Of course the first thought is the last memory one would have, this being the first thought one had inside ones mother as soon as the brain became connected. Before that event, each of us was a conglomeration of cells that know the difference between what they can eat and what they cannot.

If you really want to remember, hypnosis can help, but the experience can be quite shocking an alternative is years of meditation on the event in question......


Caana to be honest, my experience with these "parasites" are in relation to an events often related to demonic possession As far as the recommendation I documented to the individual who was paying the bills, does the term Quantum virus imply anything to you??? To be honest I am curious as to your experiences, but lets be clear, whatever issues you have, in my opinion, have nothing to do with God.

For the record and again in my opinion you need to slow your roll homeboy, get back to why you started this is the first place and realize you are not alone.

Any thoughts?

Alright, I am here to get the opinions of skeptics upon the research I have done into NDE's. I want to make it perfectly clear I am not here to start a flame war, I am here to get other opinions on the matter.

NDE's cannot be dreams or hallucinations for many reasons, here is my first:

People Have NDEs While Brain Dead, observing events while clinically deceased that are later proven to be true and accurate.

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html

Can anyone disprove this?

Because there is no reincarnation.

Yes, that is weird that they won't conduct the research to prove one way or another. With that in mind we are merely going on assumptions. I'm not one to go with assumptions wholeheartedly without proof, so I just sort of "hang" with any kind of answer to that question. It is my opinion though, that the weight loss at time of death is something other than a person's soul because I don't believe that the soul has measurable weight. I know others disagree, but that is my belief and I've seen nothing to disprove that so I'm sticking with my beliefs.

Did you see anything mentioned about the nerve cells found in the stomach? That is considered nowdays to be a "second brain" of sorts and its seems to play more important role that first thought. Could the memories being generated and stored there?

As far as the descriptions of people and equipment from the operation itself, I can only suggest that most patients get to see the people are are pretty much aware of the procedure beforehand. Its vital for them as they have to give permission to be operated on.

Interesting story

But sometimes these people know things they cannot possibly know. Some of them see dead relatives they don't even know they have, and some of them can describe the exact words that are said while they are deceased or brain dead.

This is a story about a woman who claimed to have OOBE's frequently while sleeping, and agreed to be studied by a psychologist. While she was proven to be asleep the doctor placed a 5 digit number in an envelope in an area of the room she could not possibly see without assistance. When she awoke she described the exact 5 digit number immediatly (a chance of 1 in 10,000 of being correct if she was going to guess). This is verifiable evidence of out-of-body perception and supports veridical perception in NDEs (as far as I can tell, I am hoping to hear other sides of the story). It is hard for me to explain and probably hard for you to understand, so just please read the article it is very interesting.

http://www.paradigm-sys.com/display/ctt_articles2.cfm?ID=31



I have never heard of that, can you give me a link to some information?

Can ANYONE answer me?

The soul is commonly believed to be the part of us that survives death. The soul, I believe, is another name for our conscience; our natural sense of right and wrong, and the center of our emotions. The only true evidence (unless you're irreligious, atheist, agnostic, or belong to a religion without an afterlife) is found in the Bible, mostly in the New Testament (as the majority of the Hebrew Bible (commonly called the Old Testament) deals with life here on Earth). The New Testament contains verses describing the pleasures of Heaven for those who've accepted Christ, and the torments of Hell for those who rejected the Nazarene. The proof of the soul is our sense of morality. Nobody knows if it is natural, or God given, but we know that it is there. Although some choose to reject their sense of morality and good judgement by looking past our conscience, I believe nonetheless in the exisence of the soul.

Here is a link for it.

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_105441.html

By the way thanks for the additional info. I read the article and I must say the testimony was very intriguing. I am still reserved as to the accuracy of the information there but if its true then its a very bizzare case. I will see what else I can dig up on this

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background...ificproof1.html

Any thoughts?

This topic asks 'Is there proof',
I'm sorry to be harsh, but speculation here is just spam.

"I believe that if I can see it and I can touch it then it is real" - this quote is said by Evelyn in the Mummy.

Unless I see it I will not believe. Even if I did see a soul I am not sure I would believe it! I think I would need other people to see it also, at the same time. Then I would say it is real.

If they exist I do not like the idea of having a soul: it would mean that I would have to live forever, and as appealing as it might sound i think it would lose its appeal after the first few millenia! If they do not exist then when i die we will not know any better!

Even so, refering to the post about humans and animals being different: humans are said to be the only species on earth to have the "I am me" concept. There is no proof to say that animals do not have the concept also. There is no true way of us knowing. The same for ourselves - although we Know we exist, we cannot prove that our knowing indicates a soul. I hope you understand this!

THE BLOOD
it runs it our veins, it is reffered to as liquid tissue and feed our body life that makes us living. a living soul.
blood and and active force -spirit of god- breathed into the mans nostrils and man became a liveing soul.

Vamps suck the blood of the living , so they drink the blood of living soul god made active and by in teurn would beleive to have immortality because they think that the one drank from cannot be at rest due to no living soul that without god to make it life to begin with, the hollywood vamps myth is something like that it makes sense to me.

blood =the typically red fluid that circulates through the heart, arteries, and veins of animals and delivers oxygen and nutrients to the cells and tissues of the body-2 a liquid or juice resembling this in some way , as the sap of plants -3 the shedding of blood, slaughter: murder- 4- disposition of mind: temperment: hot blood-5- the principal of life: vitality.lifeblood-6- descent from a common ancestor,: kinship-7-nobel descent:-8-racial or national extraction-9- a dashing young man:also a rake

soul=1- the rational, emotional and vioatilal faculties of man, conceived as of forming an entity distinct from the body, -2- the divine principal of life in man / the moral or spiritual; part of man related to god-3- the emotional faculty of man as distinguished from the intellect: he puts his soul into acting-4-fervor emotional force: heartiness:vitality-5- an essential or vital element: justice is the soul of the law-6- the leading figure or inspiring of a cause , movement ,etc.-7- a person considered as the embodiedment of a quality or
attribute: he is the soul of generousity-8-a living person: every soul tremblethat the sight-9- the disembodied spirit of one who has died : a ghost

blood represents life and is symbolic for life and some religious significations
having to do with the blood of jesus -

to summ it up in my own conclusion. probable soul is any living creature on the earth alive manifest ,once dead the soul is gone back to the maker and is orignaly his breath used as an active force to give the man a living soul.

SO BLOOD AND LIVELY STATE AS TO FLESH AND BLOOD= a living soul
blood -bones -flesh is man +gods breath of life god spirit = a living soul

i have read your link. very interesting. the point was proven on the external body losing 1/2 oz more or less. but is it not possible that this loss was precipitated by internal means. aren`t there changes at death affecting the body within ,which could acct. for the loss??? the meister

i dont believe that there is such thing as a soul

i don`t see how 1 can make an informed decision either way. but a lot of things point to there being more than we know at work. there are countless galaxies.each having a black hole in the center? .the distance between us & the moon . us & the sun. accident .i tend to think not. there are too many things having to be correct ,for us puny humans to survive. if we do have a soul. how ,why, who put it there ? were we consulted 1st.told what it all entailed,then born with a clean slate with no memories. it just seems to me that compared to the entire cosmos this rock orbiting our sun &
the lives we lead are realy quite unimportant in the grand scheme of things. we are a trillion to the nth power of the cosmos . very very very microscopic. so there must be more than this ridiculous assinine existence we live. i believe a soul might be the great equilizer. the meister

Hello themeister and welcome to the forum I did present in a response to another member a link to what is current in terms of understanding death from the standpoint of forensics’ at present. The forum has a policy concerning reposting links (considered spam) so simply review what has been posted to date and you will find it. The short answer is no though, nothing does occur to the body, during the time intervals in question, after death, that can account for the loss in weight. This is taking into consideration, technology and science, from the stand point of, the current state of the art (2006). Personally, for me, this is a fascinating situation, as I learned about this particular link back in 1992 (the link included about the worms in 1996) and to date have found nothing to refute (experimentally) the validity of the experiment.

Any thoughts?

Yeah, but...you're just a bad, ol' Satanist j/k


Seriously, I don't believe in the concept of the soul as proposed by Christianity's views. Not sure yet what I think about it. Another one of those on-going, ever changing, always learning processes.

i think the thread starter meant, IS there any actual physical evidence of the soul?

if you dont think that there is a such thing as soul then why are you still worshipping?

your contradicting yourself man.

hi eso how goes it; yes i have a belief system. if you think you are in touch with your soul thats great. .but i`d sure like to see 1. the absence of weight at death sorry the 1/2 oz loss. well that doesn`t convince me .not at all. reincarnation doesn`t hold with my beliefs. once around the park is enough for me. 1 set of parents relations & friends is quite enough. i think it would be a penalty to have to live here again. why does there have to be a label on everything? those that truly believe in jesus .whats the dif what its called soul smole .you were promised something by the #2 presence .that should suffice. yeah we`re all crazy to know this that & the other. but it seems that life does not provide the answers .i`m satisfied. you say you know 100% you have a soul. well you`re golden then. the meister

lol bad ol' Satanist hahaah



im not still worshipping, i have been a LaVeyan Satanist for some time now and we dont believe in souls or the afterlife

so you just have the satan stuff because its cool huh

Hello there, I registered simply for the opportunity to put in my two cent . To those on both sides of this discussion, those that believe, and those that do not. Both of your arguements and all of your posts have one very TRUE thing in common. Neither of you KNOW for a FACT which is true or not, and on the same stroke, I do not claim to know either, just a speculator as you all are. It is perhaps possible that our souls do exist. Possible that, since there SEEMS to be an opposite to all things, perhaps the brain is simply a manifestation of the soul that utilizes chemicals and other physical matter to allow us to feel the full range of emotions that our souls, lying in the theorized opposite realm does. Or on the other hand, as psychologists say, our personalities and who we are, are constructed from the experiences, feelings, and teachings of our lives.

I'm not inclined to believe that our very personality is in fact our soul. One with a personality that is biased against a particular skin color cannot possibly feel that way at his core, or soul. What would an essense, something transcendent care for a physical difference that emerged simply as a result of ancestral and progressive human adaptation. On the same note, animals learn too. I've observed a dog put it's nose in fire, and experience several other unpleasantries of which it was smart enough never to repeat, though some behaviors did remain the same no matter how many times negative results were produced. Then again, does a smoker not constantly take a lighter in hand, knowing the results.

Perhaps what really defines us from animals is that we have the ability to reason, to chose, to CREATE. As a child inherits characteristics from a father, perhaps we have also inherited this nagging NEED to do so ourselves from whatever prescence put us here. Then again, this is still only speculation. Perhaps this is all there is left to us, and instead of typing here, we should all be working ceaselessly to leave some imprint of ourselves in this world that we will no doubt leave one day. Is it not human instinct to spread itself by way of the opposite sex. Perhaps that, written in our very code of D.N.A is proof that there is no soul, this need to leave something in a life short lived.

Then again the odds of a world such as ours, that is able to sustain life that evolves and changes constantly is extremenly, extremely small, If i'm not mistaken one in a hundred billion. Then again it has been a while since I looked this fact up, and if it is smaller it is not by much. Perhaps our world, a world that constantly cycles itself for a continued existence that sustains this life, a world that is so rare in this universe is the result of some sort of divine hand. Perhaps it is simply the roulette finally reaching that one in a hundred billion other worlds and stars that make up the space that surrounds this planet. Then again I find it horribly hard to believe that this planet even produces a magnetic field that protects us from debris and U.V rays, simply by chance. On another note, those themselves are simply more factors that make that one in a hundred billion so unlikely to occur. Each one of us will just as likely be left to ponder here, until on our deathbeds or through the accidents that naturally come with this life, we pass over to a new world, or perhaps to a restfull oblivion. Personally I've always LOVED sleeping . We'll all have to find out on the other side

Perhaps i'll see you there, perhaps none of us will see a thing. At any rate, be sure to make this life worth living.

Very well explained, AngeryTreeStump
(what a name--a tree stump angry because the tree has been cut down or fallen?)
I'm not part of this tread and did not read it all. I just dropped it as you did to say my piece. I would hope for people to forget all the hair-splitting and get the big picture.

Wipe the slate clean and start over!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I believe heavily in a soul and life after death. A book that may help in answering your questions is Beyond The Himalayas. It's one of my favorite books. You can get a free copy online, which is legal.

Any proof of the soul? Hmmm, any proof of the mind? Any proof of what we see as an observer as accurate? Whoa... too much to think about... brain explodes. *poof*

Not this wall-banger of an experiment again. Search for it in other threads, they'll show you what's wrong with it.

You're right in that there is a low probability that humans should be alive. However, you're acting as if we were meant to be on Earth. There are 100 billion galaxies in the universe, each with billions of stars. The odds are that one planet would be suitable for life. When a planet is suitable enough, life will emerge from it.

Yea, the soul is just you...I mean, this world is to great and wonderious, for you not believe in SOMETHING that we go after life...

How can someone look at the satrs, and say there is no god?

yah. i have thought of this too. what if the soul is not existent and what composes man is just his mentality. take the mentally r******ed for example, will they be someplace else when they die? heaven or hell? uhm.. ahhhhhhhhhh! its in the tip of my tongue. please comment on this!

I have thought about this many times. But have often stumbled over the question of mentally challenged people. I am sure they have some type of spirit after life but how does this spirit or soul conduct itself? Does it keep going with the same mental processes it had in it's physical self or is there suddenly an explosion of a more intelligent being?