I don't feel like getting deep into this right now, but here are some observations I've made:

- The human mind is full of mundane electrical impulses. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, according to the Law of Conservation of Energy, only transformed. Therefore there is a seemingly absolute chance that although the electricity in your body may not be tied to your consciousness, it will transform and live on after your body does not.

- For death to be an end goes against the natural laws of Nature. Nature is the greatest source of wisdom for humanity, as it sets out all the rules, simple rules, for us. Some sciences and mathematics complicate things. In nature, the course of life appears to be Birth - Life - Death - Rebirth. A circle of life. From death life sprouts once more: bacteria decays and reuses, nutrients from your body fertilize, scavengers will eat off of your body, and more.

- Science, self-admitted, has yet to scratch the surface of what consciousness really is. In time we shall learn, but it is a hefty task. Until then, do not accept any absolutes.

Well... so do the atoms that are part of the hair you just had cut...



The problem there lies in that rebirth doesnt mean the same individual.

If nature cycles biological components, then why will it not recycle concsiouness? Is conciousness only created in the universe but never destroyed? How is that possible when everything else in the cosmos follows that logic but this doesn't?

I can't respond to these questions, Stellar, because I frankly don't know the answers. The things I posted seem like the most reasonable claims I've heard thus far. You have good points, regardless.



Well according to my I.M.S. theory posted in the Mysteries of the Mind, Space & Time section, consciousness and energy would eventually be completely eradicated in a recycling process unless there is a world not connected to the two mentioned universes.

If consciousness is seperate from the body, I have no idea what it is. The closest thing I could relate it to is energy. If consciousness is part of the body, the only thing it could be is energy and the collaboration of cells. It's such a fascinating although impossibly complicated subject I hardly know where to begin fathoming it. However, as signs would currently seem to point that consciousness is tied to some sort of energy, being it electricity or the fabled "spirit," it is likely it is recycled just as everything else is, however as mentioned, energy cannot be created or destroyed. Simply transformed, or recycled. Some part of you will live on, regardless -- the problem being that we don't know if this is a conscious part.

Consciousness and thought seems to be a non-material thing, although the thought process can lead you to altering matter through physical means. For example, hitting a tree with an axe. What we know of Birth - Life - Death - Rebirth so far only applies to material things; what we can observe. Our thoughts and ideas are amazingly complex.

Astral Projection/Astral Travel.

It is proof of the soul, although, it is religious experience and is unempirical. Very hard to replicate for ones eyes.

I'm not sure I'd care whether or not there was a soul. If there isn't, the knowledge and wisdom you have gained can still live on after your death, if you pass it on to your children. So I'm fine either way so long as I live long enough. >_>

yeah, your sarcy remarks get quite tedious and atm quite useless.

One can easily counter that with: "Dreams do not prove the soul."

And your nonsense posts show who you are.

Thus there is no need to reply to seemingly "tedious" and "quite useless" remarks when you only create more "tedious" and "quite useless" remarks in the process.

The soul is the vessel its our body mind & spirit all in 1 is there proof of the spirit yes it lingers on for eternity whether in the Heavens or on Earth.

Where?

Soul an electrical force, force equals mass times acceleration in all including Animals.

The one absolutely unselfish friend that humans can have in this world, the one that never deserts him, the one that never proves evil, ungrateful, jealousy, treachery, or discontent is his dog, cat or other animal!

Boadicea: So if the soul has no mass, therefore it has no force, therefore it is non existent. So what were you trying to prove with that post, hmm?

Stellar.
Where does it say in my post the soul has no mass? . So may I ask you,
What is it you are trying to prove with your reply?.
Thank you!

How could it have a mass? If it had a mass, it'd be physical and thus it would be part of our physical bodies, meaning it would have been charted in one form or another. If its part of our bodies (which die) then it cant truely be a soul, because it wouldnt live on, it would die/dissipate.

If you dont like the whole mass thing, then I can move on and comment about acceleration... an acceleration of 0 makes the force 0...

Were all just the same anyways.... in the end.

News flash...You just did what I am doing now and you accused him of.

Although I can't prove it to most people at this time and may never be able to prove it I personally know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Soul Lives on in the After Life, and the injured or warn out body remains on Earth.

The Soul goes to the Spirit world and retains all its memories, loves, hates and everything it experienced in this Lifetime and it looks back on earth with regrets and yes sometimes love and hate.

But none of that can be proven until we all go to the Spirit World or until all those in search of the Truth learn how to communicate with the Spirit World and when you do there will be absolutely no question of what you know.

However proving this to most people is not possible and its only through personal experiences that you can see that I am right.

But you must keep an open mind and keep searching for the answer until you prove these things to your own personal satisfaction then you will believe as I do.

I must go now because some of my Spirit Teachers are here to do things with me today, as we do quite often.

Right here, in fact.


A soul being energy, as implied by "electrical" and "force" constitutes a soul to have no mass. Energy or force is simply the capability to do work. Hence the Law of Conservation of Energy stating that energy cannot be created or destroyed. Not to pick on you, but what really ticks me off is when New Age thinkers don't even understand basic science.


Lead by example.

Bottom line, at death the body looses weight (mass) which cannot be accounted for by any natural means......

The soul has mass....

Any thoughts?

It loses weight over a period of time after death, and is attributed to escaping gases and such.



Proof plz?

One sure could.

But, as i said Astral Projection is proof, the silver cord travels that every man posses' is not merely a vivid dream. Projection is the second vessel for consciousness, second to the vessel of the body. It is easy to say that it is a "Dream", Stellar, I suppose you yourself have not been proved by first hand Astral Travel, nor have you experienced in any way that you have a soul? A guess? So, it is understandable to doubt, i did once too! Astral Projection is more than a mere "Dream".
Yet, as you said, one can easily say it is a dream, being that it isn't replicable with any scientific method of measurement. To most it is a fallacy, a mere dream, and would be considered invalid proof of soul.

Stellar re-read the data and note the loss of weight is instantaneous and as well is there no effort to date (this experiment was done almost 100 years ago) to repeat the effort.

Gasses leaving the body are not the answer and if it were, the doctor doing the research would have acknowledged such a conclusion (that would have been included in relation to natural means). Proof is suggested in relation to the fact that the experiment has never been repeated, let me be clear....gasses released at the time of death is not the answer, if that were the case the worms, which were in a closed environment would not loses weight.....


Any thoughts?

call me a naive optimist (both likely apply in this case) but I'm hoping my 1 post will reduce the flow of such remarks from some ppl on this board, namely ericraven. If that was his first useless one liner I wouldn't have even noticed, but he's worked up quite the track record.



I haven't read up on any of the specific experiments in which this phenomena has been measured, but I do often hear (maybe just from triad, though I think other sources as well) that there have been tests that have considered this and put the body in a sealed area. Anyone have a link to such an experiment?

How do you know that?



You can not be certain of that.



No, it is easy to say Astral Projection is anything which proves that a soul exists. Whats difficult is proving so.



Perhaps I have experienced the same thing as you and have come to my conclusion that way?



I wouldnt call it a "mere" dream, but in any case, how could you know? How can you know that you are actually leaving your body and such, hmm? Or is it all based on a "gut feeling", eh?



Thus you can not verify what it is, thus it is not proof of a soul.



It is, is it? Please tell me then two things: How could they compare the weight after death to the weight just before death, in that case? Furthermore, please, tell me at which point a person suddenly "dies". As it stands, "moment of death" is rather poetic than literal.



Indeed I know the experiment was done almost 100 years ago, and it was innacurate.



Let me ask you this before proceeding: How does even something unexplained prove a soul, hmm? It does not. You cant simply say "I dont know why this happens, therefor a soul exists." You are fabricating an explanation, not finding one.

As for the whole experiment...:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/life/feature/sto...1150835,00.html

"MacDougall's work was written up in the New York Times, which also covered his hope, some years later, to take a photo of the soul using x-rays. Despite being recorded in the paper that gives us all the news that's fit to print, his work is viewed with palpable embarrassment now. "It's simply not taken seriously," says Stern.

Gruesomely, Stern points out that dead bodies lose a lot of weight over time. Minute, intercellular structures called lysosomes release enzymes that break the body down into gases and liquid. "That's why, when you have mass graves, you can get explosions because of all the gas build-up," he says. "Just think if our bodies didn't break down. Everyone who had ever lived on the face on the Earth would still be here." Now, that would make a good movie. "

http://www.snopes.com/religion/soulweight.asp

1. "[S]uddenly coincident with death . . . the loss was ascertained to be three-fourths of an ounce."

2. "The weight lost was found to be half an ounce. Then my colleague auscultated the heart and and found it stopped. I tried again and the loss was one ounce and a half and fifty grains."

3. "My third case showed a weight of half an ounce lost, coincident with death, and an additional loss of one ounce a few minutes later."

4. "In the fourth case unfortunately our scales were not finely adjusted and there was a good deal of interference by people opposed to our work . . . I regard this test as of no value."

5. "My fifth case showed a distinct drop in the beam requiring about three-eighths of an ounce which could not be accounted for. This occurred exactly simultaneously with death but peculiarly on bringing the beam up again with weights and later removing them, the beam did not sink back to stay for fully fifteen minutes."

6. "My sixth and last case was not a fair test. The patient died almost within five minutes after being placed upon the bed and died while I was adjusting the beam."


As you see, his experiments were prone to innacuracy, and one can hardly call 2 varied results (one which reversed itsself), out of 6 experiments (Not even considering those with the dogs) can hardly be considered conclusive.

Next.



As for the whole 21g myth, read above. In reality, you dont even need to think about experiments, its common sense that gasses escape the body and such as the body decomposes, so there is a weight loss over time. It is, however, seperate from the 21g myth.

No it will not reduce it. Just as you must be tired of skeptics. So the skeptics are tired of the believers that post anything and believe it. You cannot have one without the other.

I suppose Stellar, all your questions of Mass confusion seem pessimistic, yet your views of the soul are normal.

You believe that EVERYTHING is measurable and scientific. I don't. I might aswell talk to the wall about proof of the soul.

Try Astral Travel yourself, if you believe it is a mere dream, which you wont, tell me. thanks.

What makes you think that? Simply me disbelieving that astral travel is proof positive of a soul?



What makes you think I havent?

To be honest, i don't know what makes me THINK at all.

Besides being the function of the brain, what constitutes one to THINK?

Try A/P again, Stellar?

It serves no purpose. Astral projection does not prove the soul. It simply can not, until it can be properly studied or measured, because until then, you can not dismiss the very real possibility that it is not something similar to a dream, and all happening in your mind. No matter how much you "feel" otherwise, your feeling counts for nothing.

To you, no.

But to those un-blinded by science... with unclouded eyes, the "open-minded" ones... it is.

Your experiences may never be accomplished in your lifetime, your "soul" just may not be ready.

Of course.

Ofcourse, it is more "closed minded" to assume that your own feeling is infallible on the subject than to accept that you may be wrong.

Grrr.. you are supposing that i know none like me? I am a pupil to the mentors out there that are experienced at this.

Just agree to disagree Stellar! lol.

I'll admit though you are a good skeptic, i was 2 once.

No, I am accepting that all this "astral travel is more than in your mind" is all based on a gut feeling, and as such it is subjective and you can not be proof.



Shame...

If you ever get religious experience of some sort, you will feel me on this.

The soul is like love, it cannot be measured. A shame that it cannot be.

Once again, it is a feeling...

Why do many believers state there were once sceptics? Do you think it actually provides a base of legitimacy? Because if they do I dont understand how ignoring common sense even hinders at the truth of that statement.

I am only stating this because it is true, despite what all other believers may advocate!

I was a skeptic, and i suppose still am a bit!
But if you have religious experience as i did, it is not merely a "gut feeling". C'mon man, this comment is utterly pathetic.

It is indeed. No matter how intense you say it was, it was only a feeling, and thus subjective and can not be considered "proof" of anything. What? Are you too insecure to admit that you dont have proof?

Religious experience is proof. It is NOT SCIENTIFIC. NOT ALL THINGS ARE SCIENTIFIC.

A religious experience is an experience in which one senses, and verifies, the immediate presence of the divine. Hence, quit chirpin Athiest. The soul isn't a fallacy, and the ONLY proof is by some sort of Religious experience, not blog arguments... you may not be ready, your soul is probably not.

And, no im not insecure. Jus cause my proof is unapplicable for YOU, and corroborated by independent evidence .

Read this....

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/the...experience.html

No, it is not. It can not be verified in any way. Theres no way to exclude other possibilities, thus it is not proof.



"Senses and is verified"? Care to rephrase please?



Excuse me? The only person chirping here is you.



ahh, the common excuse. "You arent ready for the truth" It appears you're the one that's not ready for the truth, since you seem arrogant enough to think that a personal feeling is proof of anything.



Can your "proof" be verified, hmm?

I edited my type-bo.

It's shame you don't think that this is proof. However, im not answering all of your questions. But i appreciate your persistance.

It seems as though for YOU, not everyone, BUT YOU....
Any kind of OBE, Astral Projection, Astral Travel, or Religious experience of a sort is not proof enough. For it is unempirical, scientifically. And, this is fine by me...
But if you ever have religious experience, please post it, so i can mock you.

Oh really? And how does this verification occure, hmm? How did you verify it?



Withdrawing so soon?



Indeed it isnt, because you can not verify that any of this is actually occuring outside of your mind...

Like i said, it is not proof enough for YOU.

The verification is immeasurable scientifically. And, as i stated much earlier in the posts it is similar to "love". Love exists, but is immeasurable, similar to religious experience. I sence much hate in you, probably the reason you have failed in your attempt to believe in anything other than what your eyes percieve.

Like they say... "if you know not god, you know not love because god is love."


EDIT: all iv'e been trying to state is that, Man has not yet created a tool sophisticated enough to measure soul, but hopefully will in the future. by the way.. stellar, you said i am exluding other possibilites... what are they???

It is not proof, period.



Then how did you verify it, hmm?



Love is not a method of verification, and once again it can not be proven that what love feels like, for me, is the same as what it feels like for you... The word "love" has a more "modular" definition to account for that possible discreptancy. A soul, however, is not.



Hate, eh? I sense much egoism in you, because you seem to act as if you believe (consciously or subconsciously) that you are superior to those who dont believe in god, as is shown by many of your statements such as the one above...

Quote verse in the Bible 'Save our Souls' that means save our bodies theres a difference between the meaning of Soul and Spirit but on the topic everyone wonders what the afterlife is like where we go what we look like would we be flickers of light or a proper representation of ones self who knows

We all have ego's, unfortunatley. However, this does not mean i have MUCH EGO, how do you measure the amount of Ego in a person? I try to engage in as much selfless service as i can. Just because i and i, and others, may have had experiences that differ with yours, do not make them invalid.

Also, i am not superior, only different i suppose? there are ppl like me that have had religous experience of some sort.... take socrates (um member) for example...

I can guage yours by your attitude.



The religious experience has nothing to do with it. You seem to believe that me, as an atheist, am filled with hate, and you seem to think your superior because you, as a believer, are not filled with hate and you know love.