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user posted image rOne of the largest studies of the possible link between human traits and astrology found little, if any, connection between the traditional sun signs of the zodiac and characteristics of individuals. The study adds to the growing body of evidence that there is no scientific basis for star signs, such as Aries, Taurus and so on. These signs are based on the place of the sun in relation to the date of birth of the subject. The researchers, however, leave open the question as to whether other, more detailed and personal forms of astrology hold any validity. "When considering the current scientific standing with respect to sun signs, it becomes clear that there is little or no truth in sun signs," said Peter Hartmann, who led the study, which will be published in next month's Personality and Individual Differences journal.

Psychology at Denmark's University of Aarhus, added, "This does not necessarily mean that all astrology is without truth, but only that the independent effect of sun signs is most likely to be irrelevant. As for the weekly horoscope based on mere sun signs, then according to the current scientific standing, there is probably more truth in the comic strips." Hartmann and his colleagues used computer analysis and statistical methods to study possible astrological connections between over 15,000 individuals. They derived these test subjects from two sources.

user posted image View: Full Article | Source: Discovery Channel
Shuriken
did anyone had any doubts that astrology is crap ?
after all, Jim Morrison said that astrology is a bunch oh bullsh it...
Waspie_Dwarf
In most things I am a sceptic. I believe in next to nothing when it comes to the supernatural. In most things however I do try to have at least a partially open mind. I'm prepared to admit that maybe there is a god, perhaps ghosts exist, maybe some people can speak to the dead and maybe some of the people that post on this site really do posses telekinetic powers.

However when it comes to astrology I just can not accept it. My mind is totally closed to the idea that there is any truth in it what so ever. I despise the fact that most news papers do not have an astronomy correspondant yet they will publish this rubbish day after day. It is time this stuff was pushed back to the 16th century where it belongs.
Master Sage
I agree, my own friends disprove astrology.
AphexTwin
laugh.gif uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Astrology is amazing and I think that article is bulls***.....I've been studying Astrology for over a year now and its relivancy is beautiful on how almost perfect it is. HOw much do you skeptics actually know about this thousands of year old subject? Its not just about the SUN signs....BLAH ya'll can believe what ya want but this article has no real proof besides sum IQ crap and sum blabbling about sum science proof they dont even explain...

check ur sun sign..this man is realllll good at his transit interpretations...

http://weeklyhoroscope.com/



keep lying to yourself! no.gif
peace n love
lets ride this cosmic wave...
-Liz
Waspie_Dwarf
If that is the best defence astrology has to offer I shall rest my case and return to studying astronomy.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
QUOTE(AphexTwin @ Apr 26 2006, 07:10 PM) [snapback]1165091[/snapback]

laugh.gif uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Astrology is amazing and I think that article is bulls***.....I've been studying Astrology for over a year now and its relivancy is beautiful on how almost perfect it is. HOw much do you skeptics actually know about this thousands of year old subject? Its not just about the SUN signs....BLAH ya'll can believe what ya want but this article has no real proof besides sum IQ crap and sum blabbling about sum science proof they dont even explain...

check ur sun sign..this man is realllll good at his transit interpretations...

http://weeklyhoroscope.com/
keep lying to yourself! no.gif
peace n love
lets ride this cosmic wave...
-Liz

Silly wabbit. Astrology is for kids. innocent.gif
AphexTwin
eh whatever. we have the rights to our own beliefs. at least believe in peace?
Waspie_Dwarf
QUOTE(AphexTwin @ Apr 27 2006, 02:59 AM) [snapback]1165218[/snapback]

eh whatever. we have the rights to our own beliefs. at least believe in peace?


I respect absolutely your right to believe what you want. It was your response to the article that I didn't respect. As to peace I believe in it as concept. I would love to see it attained.
novaceleste
I have been studying astrology for years now and I think it is brilliant. How can the moon effect waves in the ocean and not on us? I mean haven't you noticed the odd things that happen during a full moon? Please, just do one thing. Check this thread and get your natal chart mapped, it will give you a brief interpetation as well. Please keep in mind how slowly the outer planets move across our sky, this will make the same interpertation for many. But, the closer planets is when it seems uncanny. This is a brief interpertation, there is so much more...

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...&hl=natal+chart
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Most astrological readings are so generalized that they could fit anyone.
novaceleste
QUOTE(ericraven2003 @ Apr 26 2006, 10:32 PM) [snapback]1165315[/snapback]

Most astrological readings are so generalized that they could fit anyone.

Did you map your chart? I have seen most skeptics become believers after having their charts mapped. Give it a go and let me know how you feel.
Waspie_Dwarf
QUOTE(novaceleste @ Apr 27 2006, 04:15 AM) [snapback]1165291[/snapback]

I have been studying astrology for years now and I think it is brilliant. How can the moon effect waves in the ocean and not on us?


Maybe the moon and sun have an effect on us. They have an obvious and measurable effect on the earth through their gravitaional attraction. But what about Jupiter or Pluto? There is no measurable effect of those bodies on the oceans so how can they affect me? And if it isn't gravity that is the magical influence behind astrology why are we not affected by the thousands of asteroids, tens of thousands of Kuiper belt objects and hundreds of thousands of comets? If astrology is so accurate how come it was claimed to be accurate over 200 hundred years ago, when Uranus, Neptune and Pluto hadn't been discovered?

What is this magical force that controls my life.

Oh and incidentally the tides are raised by the sun and moon, the waves are the result of the wind.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
QUOTE(Waspie_Dwarf @ Apr 26 2006, 10:43 PM) [snapback]1165327[/snapback]

Maybe the moon and sun have an effect on us. They have an obvious and measurable effect on the earth through their gravitaional attraction. Buthat about Jupiter or Pluto? There is no measurable effect of those bodies on the oceans so how can they affect me? And if it isn't gravity that is the magical influence behind astrology why are we not affected by the thousands of asteroids, tens of thousands of Kuiper belt object and hundreds of thousands of comets? If astrology is so accurate how come it was claimed to be accurate over 200 hundred years ago, when Uranus, Neptune and Pluto hadn't been discovered?

What is this magical force that controls my life.

Oh and incidentally the tides are raised by the sun and moon, the waves are the result of the wind.

You go Waspie. grin2.gif thumbsup.gif
novaceleste
Chiron, which is a comet, is in the natal chart. I would tend to think that anything that is past pluto would not have as much of an impact. Also, they are so far away that for them to pass into another astrological sign would take years. This would mean that many people would be effected the same way. If you look at natal charts of some famous people, especially nut cases, you can read this in their charts.

Since becoming disabled, I have spent alot of time studying many metaphysical subjects. I really got more into astrology and found in my chart that I would suffer a mysterious illness and I would have to go to many doctors to find an answer. Well, 4 years later, I have finally got a diagnosis. And it took 11 doctors to find the answer.

Two of my sisters who are Baptists are now believers in astrology.
Waspie_Dwarf
Why Chiron? Why not Ceres or Vesta? Why not any of the more than 20 asteroids which are as large or larger than Chiron? They are all a hell of a lot closer than Chiron is.
novaceleste
Hey, I am not an astronomer or a "master" astrologer or anything. All I know is that I have studies probably 80-100 natal charts and in is uncanny how acurate they are.
Waspie_Dwarf
Thanks for trying to answer my quesions novaceleste thumbsup.gif

The truth is we are never going to agree but wouldn't the world be boring if we all thought the same thing?
Theodore
QUOTE(SaRuMaN @ Apr 26 2006, 02:48 AM) [snapback]1164129[/snapback]

user posted imageOne of the largest studies of the possible link between human traits and astrology found little, if any, connection between the traditional sun signs of the zodiac and characteristics of individuals. The study adds to the growing body of evidence that there is no scientific basis for star signs, such as Aries, Taurus and so on. These signs are based on the place of the sun in relation to the date of birth of the subject. The researchers, however, leave open the question as to whether other, more detailed and personal forms of astrology hold any validity. "When considering the current scientific standing with respect to sun signs, it becomes clear that there is little or no truth in sun signs," said Peter Hartmann, who led the study, which will be published in next month's Personality and Individual Differences journal.

Psychology at Denmark's University of Aarhus, added, "This does not necessarily mean that all astrology is without truth, but only that the independent effect of sun signs is most likely to be irrelevant. As for the weekly horoscope based on mere sun signs, then according to the current scientific standing, there is probably more truth in the comic strips." Hartmann and his colleagues used computer analysis and statistical methods to study possible astrological connections between over 15,000 individuals. They derived these test subjects from two sources.

user posted image View: Full Article | Source: Discovery Channel


Another failed attempt by conventional scientists to debunk a science that gave birth to most sciences is typical considering that astrologers invented mathematics.

As for this "test" - well, of course, it is studying "pop-culture" sun-sign astrology, which, is considered laugable by serious astrologers.

They'd be better off studying astrology for real. Here, start with this - http://facstaff.uindy.edu/~oaks/Biblio/IslamicMathBiblio.htm

or, try a conventional scientists who tried with other conventional scientists to "debunk" astrology, and in the process of serious study, he became an astrologer himself -

http://www.solsticepoint.com/astrologersme.../gauquelin.html
novaceleste
cool links! I especially like the second one. My Baptist sister now believes in astrology after I mapped her natal chart! thumbsup.gif
Theodore
QUOTE(novaceleste @ Apr 28 2006, 04:43 PM) [snapback]1167479[/snapback]

cool links! I especially like the second one. My Baptist sister now believes in astrology after I mapped her natal chart! thumbsup.gif


Thanks. What is most curious about people who do, or do not "believe" in astrology is that they often do not know what they are talking about. Astrology is the oldest science in the world, with millenia of data, and history, and yes, science, and is the Mother of most sciences that we take for granted today.

Those who confuse "pop-culture astrology" with the real thing just have not taken any time to learn about the subject of which they speak, or "debunk" as if their ignorance is a substitute for intelligence. It is not. Learning about the subject of which they speak shows more intelligence then talking before knowing anything about astrology itself.

Conventional scientists have tried to "debunk" astrology for years - without success whatsoever - and this will continue until they learn the tenents of astrology, and discover why the greatest minds in human history were, and continue to be - astrologers.
Waspie_Dwarf
In the methodology of science the onus of proof is on the astrologers to prove that it works not for scientists to prove it doesn't. I have never seen any evidence (except anecdotal) for astrology. I doubt if you will find a scientist that will agree that astrology is a science, even if it was once thought of us such. Astrology may have given birth to astronomy but alchemy gave birth to chemistry. That doesn't mean we really can turn lead to gold with the Philosopher's Stone.

The people who really study the heavens and really know what they are talking about, the astronomers reject this silly superstition.
Theodore
QUOTE(Waspie_Dwarf @ Apr 28 2006, 05:07 PM) [snapback]1167501[/snapback]

In the methodology of science the onus of proof is on the astrologers to prove that it works not for scientists to prove it doesn't. I have never seen any evidence (except anecdotal) for astrology. I doubt if you will find a scientist that will agree that astrology is a science, even if it was once thought of us such. Astrology may have given birth to astronomy but alchemy gave birth to chemistry. That doesn't mean we really can turn lead to gold with the Philosopher's Stone.

The people who really study the heavens and really know what they are talking about, the astronomers reject this silly superstition.


Well, does that include Copernicus (astrologer), Kepler (astrologer) Cardano (astrologer) Galileo (astrologer) and many well-known and famous mathematicians, doctors, and scientists?

I think perhaps you are confusing "pop-culture astrology" with the real thing. By the way, astrology gave birth to chemistry. Alchemy is part of the many branches of astrology. Everything is inter-connected, not de-connected as you seem to infer. As for "evidence" - it is all around you, if you care to observe. Astrology is not something you rationalize from a distance, requiring "evidence" as if you are apart from celestial transits. You are not. It is part of the living cosmos that you, I and everyone else lives in - they are called "transits."

Remember that the Earth is a planet too, and in motion. The entire solar system is a magnetic clock, and astrologers read this clock of space, time, and observe cycles, and patterns in them. It is not something that requires "evidence" - how can one see evidence blind? One must first open one's eyes to "see" or observe anything, per se, and every time you say a day of the week, or look at a clock - you are utlizing astrology. Every single time.
Waspie_Dwarf
QUOTE(Theodore @ Apr 29 2006, 03:22 AM) [snapback]1167607[/snapback]

Well, does that include Copernicus (astrologer), Kepler (astrologer) Cardano (astrologer) Galileo (astrologer) and many well-known and famous mathematicians, doctors, and scientists?


All dead for centuries as is the belief that astrology is a science. It was the discoveries of men like this that lead to modern astronomy and marginalised astrology to becoming just another silly superstition.

QUOTE(Theodore @ Apr 29 2006, 03:22 AM) [snapback]1167607[/snapback]

The entire solar system is a magnetic clock


What the hell has magnetism got to do with anything!

QUOTE(Theodore @ Apr 29 2006, 03:22 AM) [snapback]1167607[/snapback]

It is not something that requires "evidence" - how can one see evidence blind?


Isn't it funny how every crackpot with a superstition say's that their belief is so obvious it doesn't need evidence. If it was so obvious the evidence would be easy to find. I can't see the proof of astrology not because I am blind but because I am not stupid. The evidence isn't there because it doesn't exist.
Kat Starwolf
[size=3][color=#6633FF]

While it's understandable that most laypersons don't and can't understand the intricate nuances of astrology, it's infuriating when those who actually know nothing about it attempt to discredit it. You're mimicing what you've heard others say. Even if some of those others are 'scientists,' even scientists have been known to be wrong. Look at Einstein and his Theory of Relativity, which is even now being disproved by the String/Super String/M Theory.

Mankind does NOT have all the answers to everything in existence. Even the laws that govern the 'universe' as we know it, scientists now realize, may be more localized than we, at first, believed. There may BE no law of gravity (for instance) in another part of our universe (in fact, some research indicates that this very well may be the case). And the fact that there are other dimensions -- Multiverses -- which operate on different 'laws' should be enough to tell most of you that there's a very REAL chance that astrology works off of one of those same types of laws.

There is so much more to astrology than most people are even aware. And it most certainly is QUITE accurate. This, I've been able to verify through data collection of numerous astrological calculations on numerous individuals over the years.

I am an astrologer and have been for over 25 years. What's so exasperating about all these so-called 'studies' that are conducted on astrology and its validity, is the fact that the 'scientists' (and I use that term very loosely) who have conducted the studies, not only focus on ONE aspect of astrology (and it's always the same one: Sun Sign astrology), but, in general, only on one or two studies which have been conducted using a minimal number of control subjects and which give precious little source information, or its actual efficacy.

I have verified this for myself; I am currently back in college in order to obtain my PsyD in Counseling Psychology and have encountered this same prejudice even with psychologists and other scientists and academicians. While they espouse following empirical methods, they rarely follow these came criteria themselves. In fact, their dialogue with their students actually runs something like this:

======================
STUDENT: Why does science accept electricity without knowing what it is, professor?

PROFESSOR: Because we have proved by its demonstrable effects that it exists, my boy.

STUDENT: Science also accepts magnetism without knowing exactly what it is, doesn't it, professor?

PROFESSOR: Yes, although we do not know whether it is force, fluid or quality - we have proved it by its demonstrable effects.

STUDENT: And Life itself, professor - science says it doesn't know its cause, but it recognizes its existence, doesn't it?

PROFESSOR: Of course! Anything that has a demonstrable effect must be accepted.

STUDENT: Then the demonstrable effects of astrology are entitled to serious scientific consideration, aren't they professor?

PROFESSOR: Certainly not! Science will not accept astrology on the basis of mere demonstrable effects!
======================

A bit contradictory, wouldn't you say? There most certainly ARE demonstrable effects, just as there are with electricity, magnetism and life -- all intangible substances we can not see with our physical eyes, and yet whose 'demonstrable effects' we CAN see, and which we know are there.

Another glaring red flag is that NONE of the so-called studies were conducted by someone who knows anything ABOUT astrology. There are numerous forms of astrology. It is so detailed and complex that it takes an ASTROLOGER years (if ever!) to master any one form.

However, since we're using only 'two' studies which debunk astrology, I will reference 'two' different scientific sources which have PROVEN it's efficacy: 1) the astronomer Percy Seymour, one of Britain's leading astronomers, wrote of its validity in his book, Astrology, the Evidence of Science. Another source is the voluminous studies of the French psychologist, Michel Gauquelin. Two more excellent sources of validating information come from Astro Databank and from Avalon School of Astrology, among other sources. These aren't the only validating sources, however.

But do the scientists who have attempted to disprove astrology reference the validating studies? Of course not. Because if they did it would disprove their own blather.

Because of this issue, I am currently working on what may well turn out to be, at least, a major psychology paper which proves the efficacy of astrology, if not my dissertation. If you're interested in learning more about astrology, please visit my website at:

Starwolf Astrology Services

And just for the record, as far as Sun Sign astrology is concerned, it's not that it's not accurate; the problem is that only ONE sign or planet (for simplicity, the sun is considered a planet in astrology) is used, in this case the Sun. However, our natal charts include all the planets in the solar system, including the moon and a couple asteroids. Therefore, when calculating a chart, much MUCH more is taken into consideration than just the Sun. The fact is, our Rising Sign or Ascendant and our Moon sign can significantly modify or offset the effects of the Sun sign, as can the signs in which our Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Neptune, Uranus, Pluto and Chiron may fall.

If one is going to argue about the pros and/or cons of an issue, at least study it so that you do, indeed, know whereof you speak.

Many Blessings,
Kat Starwolf
Starwolf Astrology Services thumbsup.gif
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