SO not only are you new here but already you are telling others how they should discuss this topic!!!???? Feet WELL under the table there


Dont you know that once it comes to a subect such as evolution and its on a Spirituality V's Skepts board...there WILL be a fat chance of a DEBATE going??

Yes debate, thats fine. Fight to change beliefs...not so good. I just dont see the point to have so much anger and to take shots at a persons intelligence and personal beliefs over a friendly debate. Im not telling people how to debate, all im saying is we already have the Why dont you disBelieve thread

Awww you have only noticed it on 2 threads LOL...listen up take a long look through out this entire board and when you do ...come back and show me ONE friendly discussion...thanks!!

When it comes to religion and skeptics ..it always 99.9% get like this..because you are a newbie you arent used to it..but you will get used to it...trust me..I am not saying it RIGHT but we cant stop it..only mods can

I know it happens all the time. I know im a newb but give me some credit.
I Just find it really funny that evertime it gets back into this, people say the same stuff over and over "I believe because..." , "I dont believe in god because...." Im sure i will be involved in some of these fights...but its still funny.

Oh, its definitly me trolling.



Indeed, I did it twice. Why cant I do it to prove a point, when others go ahead and do it first? And if you had answered my question or payed attention to my posts, you would have understood that the "You're wrong" is not even a statement about god's existence, but its a statement about the fact that the person is wrong in making an absolute statement as he did.



No, you see, the person making the initial claim, ("The world is flat...", which is in itsself an absolute affirmation) Is the one who should first provide evidence to back up that statement. Even so, I WAS and AM ready to prove my statement, but your lack of cooperation on the issue shows that you do not wish me to prove it, probably because you know you're in the wrong but simply dont want to admit it.



Trolls are out to start fights, not make points. I was out to make a point as to why it is wrong to make absolutes, and to make this point I intended to have the person admit that they have no proof to back up their absolute statement. What point are you trying to make by badgering me and preventing me from making mine? It appears you are out to troll...



In the last thread, it was "Is it a fact that god is part of the universe?", in this thread it is: "Do you have proof that god does not exist?"

Mmm Cherry. I wuv's cherry.

Is that an absolute, or your belief? Gets kinda twisted huh? Its an absolute in your belief, but is only an opinion.
So, why are we discussing absolutes instead of what people believe? If someone replies to a topic and you discuss your opinion, it would be better to do it in context to the topic, right? So, lets stop changing the topic instead of substituting it with something you feel strongly about.....thats when you start a topic about what you feel strongly about, but please show respect and keep the forum on topic.

as far as i am concerned evolution has been proven to be true beyond a reasonable doubt given the evidence we currently have. that is my opinion and it will not change.

Show respect..what like you do? You wouldnt have got at him if he had of said he believed God existed..even if it wernt on topic Blue..you wouldnt so much as give his post a second thought...so why dont you practice what you preach and do the same cuz I have seen you many times drift off topic when ever it suited you

proof

now it is your turn to prove your assumption

blue believing in evolution strips people of their worth???hmmm that is absurd evolution is obvious like it or not.....Religion is what strips people of there worth...Intellegent humans are monsters Blue look around...animals don't even come close... you will find harmony and cooperation in nature you will not find tha tin mankind as the prevelant characteristic.....Where your issue is is you beleive that only one book hiolds all the sacredness it will only keep you narrowminded and limited....I have to agree with everyone saying you have to help yourself and the first place is open your minds both you and gwyny this is said as a suggestion......My 8 year old son asked me why would anyone worship a god that kills and shuns his own creations????????A child can get the message of viloence and hatred that seeps out of the bibles pages....to actually think that Darwin couldn't of felt inspired by god 'is ridiculous....lol

Thank you for sharing the "Proof", on board. I love this excerpt especially well.

I am practicing what I preach. Are you recalling my past? I must admit that I debated topics that were irrelevant to the topic, but I realize that. So what are you accusing me of? Can you accuse a repentent man?

How does religion strip people of their worth? I explained why evolution strips people of their worth, but all I've heard from you is statements without explanations. If you are trying to convince the forum of something, you'll have to backup your responses, or they are just blank statements. How can I find harmony in nature when nature is so chaotic? What nature, as you say, is so in harmony? Wake up sheri, there is nothing harmonious about nature in complete. My issues are not relevant to the topic. What I believe is what I believe, and I believe that evolution doesn't work for me. I'm not content with calling my children animals, or primates, or evolved cavemen. It would be an insult to our intelligence to claim we came from primordial soup. And what primate did we evovle from? There are inconsistencies with both evolution and nature. Weather is inconsistent and unpredictable. People are naturally contradictory to their own nature. Evolution doesn't show us what we evolved from, only that there are a bunch of species similar to ours. So is evolution a GREAT ASSUMPTION? No one is proving anything, only supposing answers.

Blue religion teaches one is unworthy and sinful by NATURE..that one isn't valuable enough to have a relationship with diety themselves they must go through a mediator (jesus)that woman are inferior, by now i thought this has been well covered.....


How can I find harmony in nature when nature is so chaotic? What nature, as you say, is so in harmony? Wake up sheri, there is nothing harmonious about nature in complete. My issues are not relevant to the topic. Blue are you part of nature????Do you beleive you are or aren't????

blue its a compliment to call someone an animal in my boo, they don't kill to be right ... ...many of our so called inventions have been inspired by animals..they don't start wars they don't discriminate and when was the last time you saw a group of animals shun another group for being gay????they don't take more than they need..no r do they intentionally rape and pillage the planet for money.....its humans blue tha are the problem....

SHeri, doesn't the fact that humans act differently to the rest of the animal kingdom work in the favour of a god? That we are different from the rest of animals could be considered a proof that we did not evolve from the same common ancestor.

Regards, PA

Blue Evolution doesn’t strip man of worth on the contry to some it is your religion that does that.
You say good comes from god as does morality this alone removes the good attributes of man into a mythical realm.
People can be good people in the absence of god, without any intervention of religion just because it is in there nature to do so.

it appears You simply do not understand Evolution your comments show a clear lack of understanding as to what evolution is as a mechanism and concept may be you could explain what it is you think your are disproving do you understand genes and hereditary ?

Could you in your own words explain what you think evolution is?


Again ill say that Evolution doesn’t state there is no god I can’t make that clear enough
Most of the augments in this thread against evolution simply put are ill conceived and lack any real understanding of what you are dismissing. A few have put good points but again those have been explained

Oh and if carbon dating is so inconsistent you wont be relying on it to date the scriptures your bible is based on yes?

I must admit there is a warm comfort in ignorance, that, that you don’t know cant hurt you, but it is a mindset that to me is void of substance and understanding and iv come to realise that to some to explain anything that falls out side of there good god book equates to explaining to a donkey why it eats hay …very hard


How do we differ P/A?

Well written post B.Cheese...you have made a great thread that has kept everyone arguing going way to go

Question though..what nut case actually thought evolution states there is no God..who ever thought this must have too many mushrooms in the coffee LOL dumb really dumb

Christian teachings teach us that we are unworthy of a position like God's, and it teaches us to reach salvation, we must humble ourselves before the very God we first prided ourselves over. What you are saying is old news and is probably a biased based on a tattered history of the Catholic Church and its protestant spawns that mingled themselves with politics. But that stuff is in the past now, time to get a new bag of tricks doncha think? Guess what, Jesus is God, so as Mediator, its just a ministry of God's. Its to show us that he has provided an everlasting atonement for our sins through his everlasting blood. You can think whatever you want of Christianity, but 99% of peoples problems with it regard the past of the Roman Catholic Church during the Middle Ages which was about five to eight hundred years ago. Not a good reason. I'm sure islam isn't as bad a teaching as many make it to be, so why slam on Christianity? Ofcourse, because believing in something means you have to consider the possiblity of its truth, which means you would have to change your sinful ways to obtain salvation. Many don't want to change and are at this moment being gathered to the battle of the great day of God Almighty, but I assume you wouldn't know much about this, since your problems are presently about the past.

You're right about the humans being the problem. So go run out into the wild and feast upon corn and live in a cave. Wait, no, that would be irrational. So we are so against nature in our very nature that it would disgrace us to live like animals, doesn't this strike you as odd? So thus, we are living proof that nature is not harmonious. I understand that you believe that religion causes problems, but I don't really think the majority of the population even knows what true religion is. Do you? I think James had it right when he spoke of any forcefed belief structure. James 1:27 Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world. So much for assuming Christianity is an organized religion! Guess what, even James was indicating that religion is an INDIVIDUAL walk with Jesus, not a spoon fed set of rules that you have to follow or be punished. Now that we've gotten that out of the way, let us again observe what is truely wrong with 'humans.'

Still, evolution doesn't work for me.

Its the statements that are inconsistent with the Christian belief. Christians believe God created earth in six days, evolution teaches that creation took a way longer time than that. Christians believe that God formed man out of the dust on the sixth day, evolution teaches that man evolved from some kind of primate. Evolution teaches a different creator without jumping out and proclaiming it to the world. That is why evolution doesn't work for me. I believe God created the earth, sea, and heavens in six days and rested on the seventh. Evolution doesn't support that belief. That is why evolution doesn't work for me.

Blue your post is like white noise as iv said many times I respect your beliefs each to there own im just making the point you can say that you don’t believe in evolution because it is contrary to you religious teachings that’s fine but you cannot say you don’t believe it because it is not real, true or based on factual evidence because you do not know the evidence at hand and from you post appear to not even know what evolution is so again rather than posting a religious based diatribe consisting of nothing I ask you to explain in your own words what it is you think evolution is then you can base your argument with merit rather than religious rabble

I don’t think you really know what it is you are dismissing

You also make reference to creationism do you whole heartedly believe the earth is 6000 years old

I was responding to Sheri's post:



That humans are fundamentally different to the rest of nature in this respect suggests an evolutionary problem - why are we the way we are when the rest of our possible ancestors act differently.

Though it isn't exactly a difference that we should be proud of. Humans are destructive and counter-productive to nature. Sheri puts this difference down to religion. I put it down to human nature.

Regards, PA

Did you know which hebrew word that Genesis uses, translated as "day"? Have you looked into the meaning of that particular word? Do you know any Hebrew?

I think we measure our differences by human standards which kind of makes them obsolete when compared to other animals.
I think our commonality with other life is more obvious than our differences.
Don’t get me wrong I do know what you are saying we do seem different when we consider art ect but it means nothing out side of a human perspective and each animal has its own uniqueness we are no exception
I think that looking from an evolutionary point our technology and apparent dominance of our niche has given us the opportunity to manipulate our environment relieving evolutionary pressures this gives us the mental recourses to explore other avenues be it spirituality, art or science .

It doesnt support your belief so be it....I on the other hand believe that God created evolution...so I have faith in both God and evolution...as a young lil catholic girl I was told God created us all in 6 days and on the seventh day he rested...but I never believed in it back when I was a kid and I still dont....but that dont mean I am wrong either...in fact it dont make ANYONE wrong...we are all entitled to our beliefs...you feel yours makes sense...but I feel my version maes more sense and others feel that their version makes perfect sense...we cant expect everyone to believe the same

Big Cheese, I thank you and my cat thanks you.

[attachmentid=25538]

no its not because the bible is gods word and the bible doesn't say a word about evolution.

P.S. you'll find freedom in selflessness

the bible doesn't mention anything about automobiles, airplanes, submarines, atomic theory, electricity, computers, or cloning. Multiple galaxies, the theory of relativity, the theory of gravity. How about radio and television? They too were once merely 'theoretical', until someone did it.

Does that mean they don't 'work' for you too?

How about the earth being the center of creation, and everything revolves around it? Or don't you believe that there are countless stars with worlds orbiting them?





Both quotes from the book "Facts and Fallacies" by C Morgan & D Langford Webb&Bower, publishers, 1981



Editted for typos. (note to self: don't type before being fully awake)

How on earth is the bible going to say anyhting about evolution??? Geeeezzee woman it was written by some guy over 2000 years ago...hardly anything was discovered back then..I dont think ANYONE heard of science let alone evolution....so tell me Gwyny...as the bible dont mention that scince may one day invent computers...then since you are so hung up on if the bible dont mention it then you wont accept it...what on earth are you doing posting on here??? cuz without science of any kind this wouldnt be possible



Good question JM...so Gwyny...do you dismiss all that is discovered within Gods universe LOL?

Good point Jmpd1 be interesting to see Gwyny,s response

Yea thats IF she responds ...she may not thought..but her Hubby might LOL

Great posts big cheese and jmpd1
I guess the one thing that sums up how I feel about what I’ve been hearing from blue and gwyny is that just because it doesn't go with what they want to be true they assume it is wrong...
Which I’m sure has happened quite a bit throughout history, but that is the real nature of asking questions especially about life and how we became who and what we are. The answers aren't always what people want them to be, and you either accept them and try and figure out how they fit in to your world view, or you ignore them and try and find comfort in ignorance like someone else posted...
The fact of the matter is that science asks questions and look for un biased answers, Darwin wasn't setting out to ruin creation, on the contrary he noticed something and when he studied a little more he realized the beginning of his theory, was he happy about it? No, he understood what it meant to the world of religion and he regretted very much what it would happen when he released his information. That is why his original plan was to release it after death but because of someone else coming up with similar conclusions he was forced to face the world with his claims....
Evolution and science aren't out to get anyone or anything, they are just asking questions and finding answers, sometimes those answers aren't what you want to hear, but they are what they are and ignoring them doesn't make them false...
It may seem to you that you need to be more then you really are, but in the long run we're just flesh and bones, and when it's all said and done the only thing that will matter is what you've done with the time you have here, not what you've done to plan for you death, and after death....
So if you accept the facts or not is your choice, but just because you don't like the results doesn't mean they are wrong.... and if those are the only reasons you say evolution is false and you have no actual problems with the evidence, and the theory other then how they make you adjust you views on the world then I have to say the problem is you and not the theory….

But you notice it correct PA????? I attribute this to religon becasue it teaches mankind tha they aren't like nature they are seperate from life and seperate from the creator...they failed from the get go to please this guy....that is whats off to me......Those that out grow religion discover that they are part of nature they are the same stuff....they no longer percieve themseves as 'different' or superior or special, those are all ego identitys.... Something else to notice is that religon dismisses any other possible explination for things in going with Geri according to her God created evolution god created it all.........Sacredness isn't in only one place...thats another thing to me that is off......and the rest you know my thoughts very well...lol

On some of the "theories" you mentioned.



ELEMENTARY THEORY OF ELECTRICITY & MAGNETISM



Warning: Gravity is “Only a Theory”

All physics textbooks should include this warning label:

“This textbook contains material on Gravity. Universal Gravity is a theory, not a fact, regarding the natural law of attraction. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully, and critically considered.”

The Universal Theory of Gravity is often taught in schools as a “fact,” when in fact it is not even a good theory.

First of all, no one has measured gravity for every atom and every star. It is simply a religious belief that it is “universal.” Secondly, school textbooks routinely make false statements. For example, “the moon goes around the earth.” If the theory of gravity were true, it would show that the sun's gravitational force on the moon is much stronger than the earth's gravitational force on the moon, so the moon would go around the sun. Anybody can look up at night and see the obvious gaps in gravity theory.

The existence of tides is often taken as a proof of gravity, but this is logically flawed. Because if the moon's “gravity” were responsible for a bulge underneath it, then how can anyone explain a high tide on the opposite side of the earth at the same time? Anyone can observe that there are 2 -- not 1 -- high tides every day. It is far more likely that tides were given us by an Intelligent Creator long ago and they have been with us ever since. In any case, two high tides falsifies gravity.

An Interesting Article

Are you serious? You consider that proof?



This is the logic that your "proof" relies on... Answer me this: Is it not possible that god simply does not want to interfere or protect or in any way answer the prayer? If that is possible (which it is), that logic can not be used as proof of gods non-existence, correct? Afterall, if a child asks his parents for candy, but the parents do not answer, that does not prove the nonexistence of the parents. So, now we've fully established that there is no proof of god's nonexistence, correct? Can I carry on with MY proof now?

If you read Genesis from a poetic standpoint, it is quite possible to interpret it as a description of evolution... You know, especially the "Man arising from mud" that your husband disbelieves...




What's that supposed to mean?

Why? Isn't it more of an insult to one's intelligence to tell your children that an invisible being living in the clouds snapped us into existence?!



Humans are more closely related to modern apes than to monkeys, but we didn't evolve from apes, either. Humans share a common ancestor with modern African apes, like gorillas and chimpanzees. Scientists believe this common ancestor existed 5 to 8 million years ago. Shortly thereafter, the species diverged into two separate lineages. One of these lineages ultimately evolved into gorillas and chimps, and the other evolved into early human ancestors called hominids.

SOURCE
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/



Yes it does. And you just made the case for evolution. Of course we're related in some way, shape or form to other living things. That's evolution! Also, if god created us, why deliberately create confusion by leaving an extensive fossil record and making us so similar to primates--particularly on a genetic level? Why not just create humans and nothing even remotely similar so that there could be no doubt that we are of divine origins?

Since the earliest hominid species diverged from the ancestor we share with modern African apes, 5 to 8 million years ago, there have been at least a dozen different species of these humanlike creatures. Many of these hominid species are close relatives, but not human ancestors. Most went extinct without giving rise to other species. Some of the extinct hominids known today, however, are almost certainly direct ancestors of Homo sapiens. While the total number of species that existed and the relationships among them is still unknown, the picture becomes clearer as new fossils are found. Humans evolved through the same biological processes that govern the evolution of all life on Earth. See "What is evolution?", "How does natural selection work?", and "How do organisms evolve?"

SOURCE
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/



Evolution is not an assumption ...

In science, a theory is a rigorously tested statement of general principles that explains observable and recorded aspects of the world. A scientific theory therefore describes a higher level of understanding that ties "facts" together. A scientific theory stands until proven wrong -- it is never proven correct. The Darwinian theory of evolution has withstood the test of time and thousands of scientific experiments; nothing has disproved it since Darwin first proposed it more than 150 years ago. Indeed, many scientific advances, in a range of scientific disciplines including physics, geology, chemistry, and molecular biology, have supported, refined, and expanded evolutionary theory far beyond anything Darwin could have imagined.

SOURCE
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/

Sean

"Evolution doesn't show us what we evolved from, only that there are a bunch of species similar to ours."

- Her name is "Lucy." See the the work of the Leakey's (just Google Richard and/or Mary Leakey) for a proven-through-scientific method direct connection between "Lucy" and yourself. Our DNA (100% of it) today was derived from "Lucy." It's been said that "Lucy" was the First Eve (among the first, actually) for those who are open-minded believers.

***************************************************************************

Leaky Foundation
http://www.leakeyfoundation.org/

Smithsonian Institution Human Origins Program
http://www.mnh.si.edu/anthro/humanorigins/

Sean

If the religious folks dont believe in dino's I wonder if they can explain as to HOW so many dinosaur fossils where found??????

Duh, Mom, everyone knows Satan planted them so he might deceive the masses! Yeesh! Where have you been?!

Sean

REALLY so thats where they came from ..amn I feel stupid now..ya learn something every day dont ya

I agree on this.

Now you believe in evolution???

Ladies and Gentleman, we have a convert.

oh, no. I don't believe in evolution. No conversion here. I believe that we all won't believe in the same thing. That I believe. Sorry to burst your moment of joy.

Blue WHY don't you beleive in Eveolution your perspective not whta you have been told.....

Job 40:15 ¶Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.

Looks like the religious do believe in dinosaurs, they just didn't call them dinosaurs.

My perspective is from what I read and learned, from the Bible. If this isn't good enough for you, then I'm sorry. You won't hear much different from me. I believe God created the earth in six days and on the seventh he rested. I believe also that God created man on the sixth, in one day, and not over a period of many years. This is what I believe, and evolution doesn't fit into my belief.

P.S. Most of what we know or believe comes from what others taught us: Mathematics, Science, History, Religion, Politics, Physics, Economics, Reading, Writing, Spelling, ect. Its not logical to ask for someone explain what they believe, yet leave out what they were taught. Just my two cents

Kangaroo!