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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
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seanph
QUOTE
There are two origin stories. The word Waldenses means 'people of the valley.' This would then refer to those whose origin is from Antioch and then migrated to the vallies of the Roman Empire. Waldo changed his name after these people. They didn't begin in the 12th century. They were first noticed in the 12th century due to the fact that Waldo was forbidden by the Church of Rome to preach and he thus disregarded their order and began preaching. They held to the Bible as the authority on doctrine, not the pope. Thus, just because they were recognized in the 12th century, it doesn't mean they didn't exist before hand.


True, but the accepted view--both academically and by the Waldense Church itself--place their origin in the 12th century.

Mainstream academic origin story

The mainstream academic view, shared officially by the Waldense Church and the Waldense Scholarship, is that the Waldensians started with Peter Waldo, who began to preach on the streets of Lyon in 1173. He was a wealthy merchant and decided to give up all his worldly possessions, he was sick of his own affluence, that he had so much more than those around him. He went through the streets throwing his money away and decided to become a wandering preacher who would beg for a living. He began to attract a following. Waldo had a philosophy very similar to Francis of Assisi.

Preaching required official permission, which he was unable to secure from the Bishop in Lyon, and so in 1179 he met with Pope Alexander III at the Third Council of the Lateran and asked for permission to preach. Walter Map, in De nugis curialium, narrates the discussions at one of these meetings. The pope, while praising Peter Waldo's ideal of poverty, ordered him not to preach unless he had the permission of the local clergy. He continued to preach without permission and by the early 1180s he and his followers were excommunicated and forced from Lyon. The Catholic church declared them heretics - the group's principle error was "contempt for ecclesiastical power" - that they dared to teach and preach outside of the control of the clergy "without divine inspiration". They were also accused of the ignorant teaching of "innumerable errors" and condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church. It was not however condemned for translating into the vernacular, as there already existed vernacular translations. Thus, they were considered heretics because the clergy saw them as a danger to what they understood as the divinely sanctioned church hierarchy.

In 1207, one of Waldo's early companions, Durand of Osca, converted to Catholicism after debating with Bishop Diego of Osma and St. Dominic. Durand later went to Rome where he professed the Catholic faith to Innocent III. Innocent gave him permission to establish the Poor Catholics, a mendicant order, who continued the Waldensian preaching mission against the Cathars. The Franciscans and Dominicans later supplanted the Poor Catholics.

Waldo and his followers developed a system where they would go from town to town and meet secretly with small groups of Waldensians. There they would confess sins and hold service. A traveling Waldensian preacher was known as a barba and could be either man or woman. (The idea of a female preacher was novel, almost revolutionary in and of itself, for the era.) The group would shelter and house the barba and help make arrangements to move on to the next town in secret.


SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldenses

QUOTE
just because they canonized the book, it doesn't mean that the books themselves are wrong. If a catholic priest can read the scriptures and call for honest reform, then the scriptures aren't the problem.


You stated otherwise. When I informed you that the Church had nixed the Book of Revelation, you stated "How can anyone not believe in the BR and still believe in Jesus?" and "Why would I take the RCC's word on anything?" et al. So how can you believe anything this institution has to say--particularly about Jesus? Why do you embrace their religious texts and deity?

As for the BR ... Both Catholics and Protestants have nixed this Book. In fact, Martin Luther believed Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it".

So why continue to believe that the BR speaks of future events when both Christian institutions (scholars and theologians as well) say otherwise?

Sean
Bluefinger
QUOTE(seanph @ May 15 2006, 09:40 AM) [snapback]1189479[/snapback]

True, but the accepted view--both academically and by the Waldense Church itself--place their origin in the 12th century.

Mainstream academic origin story

The mainstream academic view, shared officially by the Waldense Church and the Waldense Scholarship, is that the Waldensians started with Peter Waldo, who began to preach on the streets of Lyon in 1173. He was a wealthy merchant and decided to give up all his worldly possessions, he was sick of his own affluence, that he had so much more than those around him. He went through the streets throwing his money away and decided to become a wandering preacher who would beg for a living. He began to attract a following. Waldo had a philosophy very similar to Francis of Assisi.

Preaching required official permission, which he was unable to secure from the Bishop in Lyon, and so in 1179 he met with Pope Alexander III at the Third Council of the Lateran and asked for permission to preach. Walter Map, in De nugis curialium, narrates the discussions at one of these meetings. The pope, while praising Peter Waldo's ideal of poverty, ordered him not to preach unless he had the permission of the local clergy. He continued to preach without permission and by the early 1180s he and his followers were excommunicated and forced from Lyon. The Catholic church declared them heretics - the group's principle error was "contempt for ecclesiastical power" - that they dared to teach and preach outside of the control of the clergy "without divine inspiration". They were also accused of the ignorant teaching of "innumerable errors" and condemned for translating literally parts of the Bible which were deemed heretical by the Church. It was not however condemned for translating into the vernacular, as there already existed vernacular translations. Thus, they were considered heretics because the clergy saw them as a danger to what they understood as the divinely sanctioned church hierarchy.

In 1207, one of Waldo's early companions, Durand of Osca, converted to Catholicism after debating with Bishop Diego of Osma and St. Dominic. Durand later went to Rome where he professed the Catholic faith to Innocent III. Innocent gave him permission to establish the Poor Catholics, a mendicant order, who continued the Waldensian preaching mission against the Cathars. The Franciscans and Dominicans later supplanted the Poor Catholics.

Waldo and his followers developed a system where they would go from town to town and meet secretly with small groups of Waldensians. There they would confess sins and hold service. A traveling Waldensian preacher was known as a barba and could be either man or woman. (The idea of a female preacher was novel, almost revolutionary in and of itself, for the era.) The group would shelter and house the barba and help make arrangements to move on to the next town in secret.


SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waldenses
You stated otherwise. When I informed you that the Church had nixed the Book of Revelation, you stated "How can anyone not believe in the BR and still believe in Jesus?" and "Why would I take the RCC's word on anything?" et al. So how can you believe anything this institution has to say--particularly about Jesus? Why do you embrace their religious texts and deity?

As for the BR ... Both Catholics and Protestants have nixed this Book. In fact, Martin Luther believed Revelation to be "neither apostolic nor prophetic" and that "Christ is neither taught nor known in it".

So why continue to believe that the BR speaks of future events when both Christian institutions (scholars and theologians as well) say otherwise?

Sean



well we know that just because people celebrate Christmas on Dec. 25, it doesn't mean that that was Christ's actual birthday. The same is for the 'academicly accepted' origin of the Waldenses Church. And not all Waldenses hold to this origin. The reason why the academicly accepted version is accepted is because the word WALDENSES was used to describe the people. The people were for a long time, but they were called the WALDENSES because they lived in the valley. Waldo even got his name from his affiliation with them. The reason why we accept this origin is because their is no other historical account of them. Maybe because they knew better than to mingle their religion with the state of Rome. The BR even tells of the Church fleeing to the WILDERNESS during the time that the Church of Rome was to rise. And so what that the RCC and Martin Luther nixed the BR? Martin Luther was a Reformed Catholic. He still held to some Catholic traditions that identified the RCC's authority in the doctrine. And the RCC was for the most part wrong in its teachings. It took the original Church teachings and complicated them and divided them so that they would hold lesser meaning to God than they would to the Church itself. Praying to dead saints and angels, kissing statues, baptising for the dead, purgatory, indulgence. These were all very popular, yet not even Biblically supported. I don't believe the RCC tampered with the BR, because they didn't even take it serious. Those that did would never see the RCC as the MYSTERY BABYLON. Discrediting the BR based on popular opinion is not wise. There may be some messages and warnings in their that might help you in the future. But taking Martin Luther's word for it isn't wise. Never just stick with what has been learned in the Church. That was Luther's and Calvin's ordeal. They discovered a particular part of God's grace through the circumstances of their time, but never learned further. Otherwise, the Reformers would have had it ALL right in the first place. The different denominations is because of the different times in history that the Church was led to a Reform and had to split away due to the lack of Reformation within the major congregational or clerical body. That is why you just take someone's word for it. Like I said, Open up a Bible and a history book and look for yourself. Refusal would to be to not care for the truth, and this is showing that you don't want to believe in the Bible because of the choice that it leads you to make. Which is more important? Living a pleasureable sinful life that will only bring you death, or following God's commandments by abiding in Christ all your everlasting life?
seanph
QUOTE
It took the original Church teachings and complicated them and divided them so that they would hold lesser meaning to God than they would to the Church itself.


And what was the original teachings of the Church? And are you even a Christian?

QUOTE
Like I said, Open up a Bible and a history book and look for yourself.


Here you go again! I have already stated my spiritual and academic background-- which you have dismissed because I use logic and not faith--am not filled with the HS. My background in both is extensive.

QUOTE
Refusal would to be to not care for the truth, and this is showing that you don't want to believe in the Bible because of the choice that it leads you to make.


I sought the "truth' for years. To find it, I had to look beyond the Bible. What I found set me free from religious bondage. Logic won out. And what choice are you talking about?

QUOTE
Which is more important? Living a pleasureable sinful life that will only bring you death, or following God's commandments by abiding in Christ all your everlasting life?


Living a pleasure and responsible life. Being a decent individual and trying to make a positive difference in this world. You see, I do good because it is simply the right thing to do. I'm not interested in reward like the Christian. I'm not interested in seeking approval from some invisible deity. That is selfishness, not purity of deed and heart.

Sean
Beckys_Mom
BLUE - Sean isnt intresting in being a christian


SEAN - Blue isnt intrested in evolution


YOU BOTH - why bother trying to debate something thats not going to give in to either of you?

Only Blue can make up his mind what to believe...same for you sean..you make up your own mind


and thats that thumbsup.gif


That is all grin2.gif
Avinash_Tyagi
user posted image

Simpsons had a great episode on Evolution & Creationsim yesterday
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Avinash_Tyagi @ May 15 2006, 08:34 PM) [snapback]1189855[/snapback]

user posted image

Simpsons had a great episode on Evolution & Creationsim yesterday

LOL I saw that one w00t.gif
Tangerine Sheri
Silver i know what you mean.......

avin ha ha hahahhahaha
Bluefinger
QUOTE(seanph @ May 15 2006, 11:08 AM) [snapback]1189592[/snapback]

And what was the original teachings of the Church? And are you even a Christian?
Here you go again! I have already stated my spiritual and academic background-- which you have dismissed because I use logic and not faith--am not filled with the HS. My background in both is extensive.

I sought the "truth' for years. To find it, I had to look beyond the Bible. What I found set me free from religious bondage. Logic won out. And what choice are you talking about?
Living a pleasure and responsible life. Being a decent individual and trying to make a positive difference in this world. You see, I do good because it is simply the right thing to do. I'm not interested in reward like the Christian. I'm not interested in seeking approval from some invisible deity. That is selfishness, not purity of deed and heart.

Sean


The Bible holds the original teachings of the Church. I'm not talking about the Catholic Church, I'm talking about the Church of the Apostolic Era. I'm not dismissing your logic. I'm not here to offend, I'm sorry if I put it harshly. I'm not even attacking your intelligence. I'm just saying, you don't need a Ph.D to know about Christ's teachings. It doesn't matter how many classes you went to or how many degrees you have. If you weren't taught the right things and you refuse to check it for yourself instead of taking a professor's word for it, then you may have been misled. But if indeed you did research it for yourself, then wouldn't most of this be your opinion? Then that means that what I have said of my interpretation is just as valid as yours. Thus it is kinda disrespectful to just dismiss what I believe just because you don't believe that. I don't go out and say that those that believe in dispensationalism are wrong and don't know what they are talking about because 'I HAVE TAKEN CLASSES AND I KNOW WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT.' ya know?

And on the last part you are right. We should for the most part do good things for the wellfare of others instead of watching out for our own hides. But if we don't help ourselves, all that may very well be in vain for ourselves. You are right though. If it means nothing to us to help others that to only be saved, then we are not in the right heart.
Beckys_Mom
This has so gone off topic its not even funny blink.gif
manapa99
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 15 2006, 11:19 PM) [snapback]1190684[/snapback]

This has so gone off topic its not even funny blink.gif

i agree.... it's like evolution was lost 4 pages ago lol
come on people lets deal with why you don't agree with evolution there are many other threads that deal with other religious issues...
and s for the simpsons episode it thought it was one of the best i've seen in a really really long time yes.gif
thumbsup.gif
Big cheese
Bah I missed lithe Simpson’s last night: crying.gif


Yes back on topic please ,blue is yet to answer what he thinks evolution is so with regards to your religious references they are irrelevant to this threads topic.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Big cheese @ May 16 2006, 11:19 AM) [snapback]1191044[/snapback]

Bah I missed lithe Simpson’s last night: crying.gif
Yes back on topic please ,blue is yet to answer what he thinks evolution is so with regards to your religious references they are irrelevant to this threads topic.

Good luck to ya....and I am serious...I can sense another bible verse rants after rant blink.gif
seanph
Sorry guys. Probably my fault for leading this thread off topic. My bad. And that Simpsons episode was hilarious! grin2.gif

Mom, you're right. wink2.gif

QUOTE
And on the last part you are right. We should for the most part do good things for the wellfare of others instead of watching out for our own hides. But if we don't help ourselves, all that may very well be in vain for ourselves. You are right though. If it means nothing to us to help others that to only be saved, then we are not in the right heart.


Well said, Blue. wink2.gif

Sean
JMPD1
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 15 2006, 09:19 PM) [snapback]1190438[/snapback]

If you weren't taught the right things and you refuse to check it for yourself instead of taking a professor's word for it, then you may have been misled.


Soooooo if he accepts anothers word for it, he is misled and ignorant.

But

QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 15 2006, 09:19 PM) [snapback]1190438[/snapback]
But if indeed you did research it for yourself, then wouldn't most of this be your opinion?


If you research it for yourself its just opinion. Very neatly done Blue, you just excluded and conflicted the only ways we have of learning.

If one is taught, and researches further on ones own, then what?

And if I may ask, who taught you your interpretation of the bible and the BR? Were you instructed what it means? Or did you just research it on your own? Oh, I forgot: you have an extensive research library at your fingertips. What is it? 5 books? And what, exactly, do you mean by "weren't taught the right things"?

Bluefinger
QUOTE(JMPD1 @ May 16 2006, 01:11 PM) [snapback]1191528[/snapback]

Soooooo if he accepts anothers word for it, he is misled and ignorant.

But
If you research it for yourself its just opinion. Very neatly done Blue, you just excluded and conflicted the only ways we have of learning.

If one is taught, and researches further on ones own, then what?

And if I may ask, who taught you your interpretation of the bible and the BR? Were you instructed what it means? Or did you just research it on your own? Oh, I forgot: you have an extensive research library at your fingertips. What is it? 5 books? And what, exactly, do you mean by "weren't taught the right things"?


is all that jibberish supposed mean something? If you want accuse me of something, then just go out and do it. You don't need to leave the guess work up to me.

My research: When I first started, I looked in books such as Nostradomus, Edgar Kayse, Hal Lindsey, ect. Then I started to look online for other opinions. Then I went to a prophecy siminar. Keep in mind that all this has taken place in the last 13 years. Then I started studying Church history and based my interpretation off of what History had to say. I know why you posted this. A man doesn't need a Ph.D. to understand the BR, only the Holy Spirit. If you find this hard to believe, then ask how many nonChristians can explain the book of Revelation to you and then read it for yourself. I can guarantee you won't understand it completely. Thats because its sealed. The book is meant for those who believe in and trust in Jesus.
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 16 2006, 08:24 PM) [snapback]1191599[/snapback]

is all that jibberish supposed mean something? If you want accuse me of something, then just go out and do it. You don't need to leave the guess work up to me.

My research: When I first started, I looked in books such as Nostradomus, Edgar Kayse, Hal Lindsey, ect. Then I started to look online for other opinions. Then I went to a prophecy siminar. Keep in mind that all this has taken place in the last 13 years. Then I started studying Church history and based my interpretation off of what History had to say. I know why you posted this. A man doesn't need a Ph.D. to understand the BR, only the Holy Spirit. If you find this hard to believe, then ask how many nonChristians can explain the book of Revelation to you and then read it for yourself. I can guarantee you won't understand it completely. Thats because its sealed. The book is meant for those who believe in and trust in Jesus.

Blue...there are those like me that do believeand trust in Jeus..but also believe that God himself created evolution...you cant prove he didnt either....just because a guy 2000 years ago that didnt understand science or maybe never heard of evolution...so instead made it all out to be the work of magic and gave an easy answer....that dont make it so...

But hey...If you believe in what that guy has written in the bible..so be it..I aint going to try and get you to look else where and expand your mind on evolution..do as you see fit..
Bluefinger
thumbsup.gif Fine by me.
Big cheese
Still waiting Blue huh.gif
seanph
QUOTE
My research: When I first started, I looked in books such as Nostradomus, Edgar Kayse, Hal Lindsey, ect. Then I started to look online for other opinions. Then I went to a prophecy siminar.


Hal Lindsey!!!!!!!!! This nutter is a literalist end-timer that predicted the Second Coming in 1980!!! Guess the HS misled him. How do you know IT isn't doing the same with you? And Nostradomus?! OMG! His quatrains are so obscure that they are impossible to decipher.

By the way ... How is the HS teaching you? Audibly? Through revelation?

QUOTE
Then I started studying Church history and based my interpretation off of what History had to say.


First, what history texts did you use? Second, you raked me over the coals for studying my ass off for twenty years (academically/personally) on the origins and evolution of Christianity ... yet you did your own research/study and that's perfectly fine? Rather hypocritical isn't it?

Sean
rhyknow
QUOTE(Venomshocker @ May 2 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]1171926[/snapback]

I have no doubt in the biological process of evolution. But just because bilogical evolution exists, dosent mean we evolved from earlier primemates.

I do believe humans were created by aliens cross-mixing their genes with either apes or other primates. thumbsup.gif alien.gif



Well.... you have a point... It's one possible explanation...
Everyone has different beleifs on this...
I would say one thing tho... Evolution is more beleiveable that creationism... Have you ever noticed that those who beleive in creationism look really unevolved?
"God created me in 1 day!"
"Yeah, looked like he rushed it!"

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinions... I beleive that evolution is one of the only possible explanations to us being here...
seanph
QUOTE
Have you ever noticed that those who beleive in creationism look really unevolved?
"God created me in 1 day!"
"Yeah, looked like he rushed it!"


HAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!! grin2.gif
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(rhyknow @ May 17 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]1192967[/snapback]

Well.... you have a point... It's one possible explanation...
Everyone has different beleifs on this...
I would say one thing tho... Evolution is more beleiveable that creationism... Have you ever noticed that those who beleive in creationism look really unevolved?
"God created me in 1 day!"
"Yeah, looked like he rushed it!"

Anyway, everyone is entitled to their own opinions... I beleive that evolution is one of the only possible explanations to us being here...

In that case I looked like he really rushed it..it must have taken God 5 mins to create me unsure.gif w00t.gif
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Big cheese @ May 17 2006, 06:09 PM) [snapback]1192691[/snapback]

Still waiting Blue huh.gif
What was the question again?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(seanph @ May 17 2006, 09:53 AM) [snapback]1192960[/snapback]

Hal Lindsey!!!!!!!!! This nutter is a literalist end-timer that predicted the Second Coming in 1980!!! Guess the HS misled him. How do you know IT isn't doing the same with you? And Nostradomus?! OMG! His quatrains are so obscure that they are impossible to decipher.

By the way ... How is the HS teaching you? Audibly? Through revelation?
First, what history texts did you use? Second, you raked me over the coals for studying my ass off for twenty years (academically/personally) on the origins and evolution of Christianity ... yet you did your own research/study and that's perfectly fine? Rather hypocritical isn't it?

Sean


no sean, i did not rake you over your studies. You raked me and dismissed my interpretation because you didn't agree with it. Because it wasn't what you studied, it was automatically wrong. Which by dealing with intepreting revelation is a very rash thing to say. Are you so used to people putting you down that you just assume anyone who disagrees with you is putting you down?

Oh and I never said that I believed Hal Lindsey or Nostradamus, I said I studied them. That was merely implying that at an early age, I had an interest in prophecy.

As far as the Church History book that I have, its by Lars P. Qualben of St. Olaf College. It was origionally published in 1933 and last revised in 1964 (to accomodate the Chinese Church History). It starts with the history (spiritual and temporal) of each Church era since Christ ascended into heaven. I looked up the history it gave me and compared it to other history accounts, and they check out good.

What I did was study Church history and then study the book of Revelation (which was written to Churches in the first place about things which were soon to take place, which did with the first and second seals.)

I know that I'm not taking things literal because I spent much time comparing views and interpretations and gathering the true information out of each. Its funny, many got individual things right and then disagree on other things. If you study them all and compare them to the Words of Jesus and those of the Apostles, you can clearly see that the Bible interprets itself with the symbolism but follows close with history. It didn't in John's day because much of it hadn't taken place yet.

I do apologize if you felt any offence by me. I hope to get on better terms with you, but I find that impossible if you don't respect my opinions enough to hear and research what I say.
Big cheese
QUOTE
What was the question again


I asked blue if he knew what it was he was discounting ,if he knows what evolution is rather than the "we didnt come from monkies" argument and religious rabble he uses to defend his point . blink.gif
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Big cheese @ May 18 2006, 02:37 AM) [snapback]1194184[/snapback]

I asked blue if he knew what it was he was discounting ,if he knows what evolution is rather than the "we didnt come from monkies" argument and religious rabble he uses to defend his point . blink.gif


you mean the thought that we evolved from mud?
Big cheese
QUOTE
you mean the thought that we evolved from mud?


No not at all my friend I mean as I asked originally explaine what you think evolution is in your own words my reason being to see if you actually know what it is you are trying to discredit or cannot accept unless that is your explanation of what you think it is ? is it ?
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Big cheese @ May 18 2006, 06:42 AM) [snapback]1194341[/snapback]

No not at all my friend I mean as I asked originally explaine what you think evolution is in your own words my reason being to see if you actually know what it is you are trying to discredit or cannot accept unless that is your explanation of what you think it is ? is it ?


Evolution: the idea that we evolve over time, hinting that we evolved from single celled organisms some N million years ago. I find it hard to believe that every species evolved from one type of single celled organism or even many. Evolution would have to be a miracle in itself to even get jumpstarted. Its an idea that no one has enough time to prove.
manapa99
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 18 2006, 11:26 PM) [snapback]1195540[/snapback]

Evolution: the idea that we evolve over time, hinting that we evolved from single celled organisms some N million years ago. I find it hard to believe that every species evolved from one type of single celled organism or even many. Evolution would have to be a miracle in itself to even get jumpstarted. Its an idea that no one has enough time to prove.

and yet you ignore all the posts we have posted that do have evidence that proves it...
wow at this point it acctually takes aneffort to not understand evolution lol and you're pulling it off very well
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(manapa99 @ May 18 2006, 08:30 PM) [snapback]1195543[/snapback]

and yet you ignore all the posts we have posted that do have evidence that proves it...
wow at this point it acctually takes aneffort to not understand evolution lol and you're pulling it off very well

thats an interesting insight manapy I too wonder how one sees absoulutly no evidence of evolution, ...hmmm
Bluefinger
QUOTE(manapa99 @ May 18 2006, 10:30 PM) [snapback]1195543[/snapback]

and yet you ignore all the posts we have posted that do have evidence that proves it...
wow at this point it acctually takes aneffort to not understand evolution lol and you're pulling it off very well


No, I think you misunderstood me. The evidence you have only SUGGESTS that your theories are correct. HOWEVER, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for anyone to recreate this scenario, thus they'll never know for sure. Evolution has as much historical position as the big bang theory. All that is seen is deemed evidence, but none of us have the capabilities to prove it. Thus if you can't recreate it, you can't prove it. You can see that over time organisms evolved, but you didn't see anything other than the general species, and nothing before hand. Like where is the proof that both humans and monkies evolved from the same primate species. And with that, why? As I don't have time in my day to go throughout all tweny something pages and I don't have all day to study each minute detail, lets keep the scientific explanation on a grade school level so that I can understand it better. As I'm not interested in what evolution has to offer, you'd have to convince me that it is neccessary to believe in and is 100% proven. If not, then it holds just as much and if not then less credibility than the Bible does.
Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 18 2006, 08:50 PM) [snapback]1195560[/snapback]

No, I think you misunderstood me. The evidence you have only SUGGESTS that your theories are correct. HOWEVER, there is NO POSSIBLE WAY for anyone to recreate this scenario, thus they'll never know for sure. Evolution has as much historical position as the big bang theory. All that is seen is deemed evidence, but none of us have the capabilities to prove it. Thus if you can't recreate it, you can't prove it. You can see that over time organisms evolved, but you didn't see anything other than the general species, and nothing before hand. Like where is the proof that both humans and monkies evolved from the same primate species. And with that, why? As I don't have time in my day to go throughout all tweny something pages and I don't have all day to study each minute detail, lets keep the scientific explanation on a grade school level so that I can understand it better. As I'm not interested in what evolution has to offer, you'd have to convince me that it is neccessary to believe in and is 100% proven. If not, then it holds just as much and if not then less credibility than the Bible does.

Blue maybe you are taking this to literal, the idea evolutin is trying to convey is life evolves...blue are you life?????
RachelM
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 18 2006, 10:50 PM) [snapback]1195560[/snapback]

As I don't have time in my day to go throughout all tweny something pages and I don't have all day to study each minute detail, lets keep the scientific explanation on a grade school level so that I can understand it better. As I'm not interested in what evolution has to offer, you'd have to convince me that it is neccessary to believe in and is 100% proven. If not, then it holds just as much and if not then less credibility than the Bible does.


If you're not interested in what evolution has to offer, than there's no point in anyone trying to give you scientific explanations, is there?

What is incredible to me is that you shun evolution because it's not 100% proven, yet you'll take the Bible at face value and proof of it is 0%. If you're looking for proof, evolution outweighs the Bible.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(RachelM @ May 18 2006, 11:13 PM) [snapback]1195570[/snapback]

If you're not interested in what evolution has to offer, than there's no point in anyone trying to give you scientific explanations, is there?

What is incredible to me is that you shun evolution because it's not 100% proven, yet you'll take the Bible at face value and proof of it is 0%. If you're looking for proof, evolution outweighs the Bible.


There is much proof to the Bible. Its called HISTORY. People wrote down or by word of mouth.
RachelM
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 18 2006, 11:28 PM) [snapback]1195577[/snapback]

There is much proof to the Bible. Its called HISTORY. People wrote down or by word of mouth.


Using that argument, then all of mythology should be called HISTORY. And, that also means that you believe in the Gnostic gospels. They're HISTORY, too. And, if I wasn't so tired, I could give you a long list of writings that should be considered HISTORY.

BTW, why is HISTORY in captial letters?

Paranoid Android
Gnostic gospels - circa 200 AD.
Synoptic gospels (matthew, Mark, Luke, John) - circa 70 AD - 125 AD.

I wonder which is more likely - a document written 40 years after the event, or 170 years after the event....
Big cheese
Blue you say that your evidence of the bible is history while I agree that yes there may well be historical merit to your text and ill freely admit I do not know enough about those texts to say they cannot be true ill leave that to those more educated in that field, however I can say that what I know of evolution that to me it seems more probable. You see my point is I cannot say that your texts are historically wrong because I simply do not know enough about them in the same way you cannot say evolution is wrong because it appears you do not understand it . And again you seem to see evolution as saying there is no god this isn’t the case at all. I do think life is emergent when all the requirements are present but I can’t prove it and only base that on my scientific understanding. Evolution can be proven. And seen to be a working process active today to what degree is open to interpatation and governed by ones own beliefs but it exists non the less

Blue can I ask you with your current view of the world and its biblical origins can you explained what fossil fuels are, where they come from and how they fit in with your views
Kahrie
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 19 2006, 04:28 PM) [snapback]1195577[/snapback]

There is much proof to the Bible. Its called HISTORY. People wrote down or by word of mouth.



Word of mouth?! rolleyes.gif well we all know what happens with that rofl.gif its like chinese whisper's everyone adds a little bit to the 'facts'
Paranoid Android
Not quite, Kahrie. Storytelling is much more precise than Chinese Whispers. Chinese whispers, you have 10 seconds to tell someone a large quote, usually a tongue twister or something similar.

WIth oral tradition, passed on from master to pupil, the chosen storytellers dedicated their lives just to that. They learn the stories, word for word, no embellishment, no added extras, nothing left out. While obviously not as precise as the written word, oral tradition did not simply change from telling to telling, nor is it completely unreliable. If the storyteller said something differently, or in a different order, or added something in, they would earn the ire of the village-folk, who also were used to hearing these stories over and over again.

Regards, PA
Kahrie
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ May 20 2006, 02:58 PM) [snapback]1196939[/snapback]

Not quite, Kahrie. Storytelling is much more precise than Chinese Whispers. Chinese whispers, you have 10 seconds to tell someone a large quote, usually a tongue twister or something similar.

WIth oral tradition, passed on from master to pupil, the chosen storytellers dedicated their lives just to that. They learn the stories, word for word, no embellishment, no added extras, nothing left out. While obviously not as precise as the written word, oral tradition did not simply change from telling to telling, nor is it completely unreliable. If the storyteller said something differently, or in a different order, or added something in, they would earn the ire of the village-folk, who also were used to hearing these stories over and over again.

Regards, PA



I know that rolleyes.gif i'm just using it as an EXAMPLE but how do you know that over thousands of years these stories couldn't change?
manapa99
like other people have posted here already to take the bible as true only because it got some historic facts right would also mean that you have to take virtually all mythologies as true that goes for greek germanic and easter mythologies.. and then by what you are saying that make zeus and thore as equaly real as your god...
what we have been posting is answers and corrections to the overall questions that people have come here with, you simply can not hold merrit to say that you don't believe evolution because you don't understand it, weither you understand it or not doesn't make the truth go away and if your eally want to understand you're going to have to read... i've personally spent hours going over this stuff just to help answer questions and help people understand better the theory as a whole, and yet now because you have a busy day you can't read the things we post, then why are you even bothering to post here at all?
you will get no respect from me in this discussion if you can't acctually look at the other side, i've seen your side and lived it for the first half of my life...
if you want proof that we came from ape like creatures look about 10 pages back there were some really great posts in here....
there is a whole brach of science devoted to the study of human oragins Paleoanthropology i'm sure if you bothered to look that up then you will be very surprised to find out how much we do know about how we evolved...
but by going from your other posts i'm quite sure you wont bother, nor will i bother any more to read you resposes to a duscussion about a theory you don't understand nor are trying to understand...
Paranoid Android
QUOTE(Kahrie @ May 20 2006, 01:01 PM) [snapback]1196947[/snapback]

I know that rolleyes.gif i'm just using it as an EXAMPLE but how do you know that over thousands of years these stories couldn't change?
You don't know. That's where Faith comes in. I know that's a cliche response, possibly one might even describe it as a copout response (though i wouldn't see it that way).

Know what I mean.

Regards, PA
Bluefinger
QUOTE(manapa99 @ May 19 2006, 10:07 PM) [snapback]1196960[/snapback]

like other people have posted here already to take the bible as true only because it got some historic facts right would also mean that you have to take virtually all mythologies as true that goes for greek germanic and easter mythologies.. and then by what you are saying that make zeus and thore as equaly real as your god...
what we have been posting is answers and corrections to the overall questions that people have come here with, you simply can not hold merrit to say that you don't believe evolution because you don't understand it, weither you understand it or not doesn't make the truth go away and if your eally want to understand you're going to have to read... i've personally spent hours going over this stuff just to help answer questions and help people understand better the theory as a whole, and yet now because you have a busy day you can't read the things we post, then why are you even bothering to post here at all?
you will get no respect from me in this discussion if you can't acctually look at the other side, i've seen your side and lived it for the first half of my life...
if you want proof that we came from ape like creatures look about 10 pages back there were some really great posts in here....
there is a whole brach of science devoted to the study of human oragins Paleoanthropology i'm sure if you bothered to look that up then you will be very surprised to find out how much we do know about how we evolved...
but by going from your other posts i'm quite sure you wont bother, nor will i bother any more to read you resposes to a duscussion about a theory you don't understand nor are trying to understand...



I don't have to believe evolution is true. I'm not convinced. Evolution has as much potential to help us understand life as the pagan religions can help us understand the Bible. I hold to the Bible because I am convinced of its truth just as you are convinced of evolution. If you want to convince me that we evolved and were not created, then you are going to have to prove it. You can't show me evidence alone, because that doesn't show me how things went down, only that they did. I'm a WHY guy. You have to tell me why for it to make sense to me. I'm not neccessarily going to buy what you say just because you say it is. You need to do better to convince me. Sorry. hmm.gif

On a lighter note, at least we didn't evolve from the doto bird. Speaking of that, how come people believe evolution created all these species just for some of them do die out anyway. I mean look at the dinosaurs! How come the only potentially close species to dinosaurs are lizards and the alligator type, yet they are so small? What happen to the mega creatures. Seeing this, how come we have creatures at all. If an asteroid destroyed life on earth, then how come there is still life. I'm putting my fingers through holes. dontgetit.gif
RachelM
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 19 2006, 11:47 PM) [snapback]1197092[/snapback]

On a lighter note, at least we didn't evolve from the doto bird. Speaking of that, how come people believe evolution created all these species just for some of them do die out anyway. I mean look at the dinosaurs! How come the only potentially close species to dinosaurs are lizards and the alligator type, yet they are so small? What happen to the mega creatures. Seeing this, how come we have creatures at all. If an asteroid destroyed life on earth, then how come there is still life. I'm putting my fingers through holes. dontgetit.gif


You could ask the same question of the Biblical god. Why would he create things just to have them become extinct? If I had the ability to create my very own animal, you can bet your tush that I sure as heck would make sure it stayed alive. Besides, evolution doesn't "create" as a being would, it is a natural process.

And, on a lighter note, sometimes I feel like a dodo bird. tongue.gif
manapa99
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 20 2006, 12:47 AM) [snapback]1197092[/snapback]

I don't have to believe evolution is true. I'm not convinced. Evolution has as much potential to help us understand life as the pagan religions can help us understand the Bible. I hold to the Bible because I am convinced of its truth just as you are convinced of evolution. If you want to convince me that we evolved and were not created, then you are going to have to prove it. You can't show me evidence alone, because that doesn't show me how things went down, only that they did. I'm a WHY guy. You have to tell me why for it to make sense to me. I'm not neccessarily going to buy what you say just because you say it is. You need to do better to convince me. Sorry. hmm.gif

On a lighter note, at least we didn't evolve from the doto bird. Speaking of that, how come people believe evolution created all these species just for some of them do die out anyway. I mean look at the dinosaurs! How come the only potentially close species to dinosaurs are lizards and the alligator type, yet they are so small? What happen to the mega creatures. Seeing this, how come we have creatures at all. If an asteroid destroyed life on earth, then how come there is still life. I'm putting my fingers through holes. dontgetit.gif

hmmm so you mean that all the medical and biological break throughs we have gotten from the theory of evolution are not true?
you are really showing your ignorance in this post.
second i will say it again evolution isn't a cognative being, it is a process there is nothing behind it thinking hey this will be cool...
it's natural selection....
why are you wasting our time if you wont take evidence for proof?
ha that's like saying well he has the bloody glove and the knife and he was there... but i don't know why so i don' tthink he killed them....
and yet then you take a book that was written i dunno no even 1700 years ago with no proof what so ever?
that logic makes absolutly no sense tome what so ever...
evolution isn't about why, it's about how
why didn't your god show up for the first 5 billion years of earth?
or the first 226,000 years of humanity?
why is there no historical record of him at all past 4000 years when we kow we have been around much much longer???
that's my why....
Tangerine Sheri
Manapa i think has an excellent point, if we are to participate in a thread a discussion we should be willing to learn and to at least read and be open to all others perspcetives...I read every post if I'm on a thread dialoging and the time and care that goes intot htese posts is immense many do as manap said htey put thought and research out there sides......I thought that is wht thisis about learning from each other ..not tryin gto convince one of something..... no.gif
Beckys_Mom
Ok just for laughs...not to be taken seriously LOL I am going to answer manapa two ways...1st - i'll give my responce as if I where a christian with a lil spark LOL grin2.gif



[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
hmmm so you mean that all the medical and biological break throughs we have gotten from the theory of evolution are not true?
[/quote]


Yes, the bible is the only real truth there is...take a look at yourself thats proof...God created you..and you came from Adam & Eve yes.gif

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
second i will say it again evolution isn't a cognitive being, it is a process there is nothing behind it thinking hey this will be cool...
[/quote]


They came up with that evolution theory out of spite..to take a stab at the bible..thats a fact


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why are you wasting our time if you wont take evidence for proof?
[/quote]


Why are you wasting your time posting to me when I wont swallow your nonsense on evolution? hmm.gif The only proof anyone needs is the BIBLE!

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
ha that's like saying well he has the bloody glove and the knife and he was there... but i don't know why so i don' tthink he killed them....
[/quote]


He could have been framed..you have no proof

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
and yet then you take a book that was written i dunno no even 1700 years ago with no proof what so ever?
[/quote]

The bible is all the proof I need I dont need to question it...it is 100% truth

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
that logic makes absolutly no sense tome what so ever...
evolution isn't about why, it's about how
[/quote]



But we dont need to know HOW...we need to know WHY...and no one can prove HOW..thats why evolution is hogwash w00t.gif

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why didn't your god show up for the first 5 billion years of earth?
or the first 226,000 years of humanity?

[/quote]

sigh everyone knows that the earth is only approx 2000 - 4000 years old rolleyes.gif

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why is there no historical record of him at all past 4000 years when we kow we have been around much much longer???
that's my why....
[/quote]



You have the right to remain silent....anything you say can be used against you in the court of Gods Law...you have the right to a bible, if you do not have a bible, one will be sent to you!!!...Now pick one up and read it... w00t.gif

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Now to respond the only way BM knows how grin2.gif

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
hmmm so you mean that all the medical and biological break throughs we have gotten from the theory of evolution are not true?
[/quote]

They are true yes.gif I'm not that silly LOL

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
second i will say it again evolution isn't a cognitive being, it is a process there is nothing behind it thinking hey this will be cool...
[/quote]

w00t.gif I guess thats how some think...they think that some guy woke up one day and was angry at God so he decided to put years of har work and re-search into his theories and come up with the theory of evolution..just for kicks to get at God w00t.gif ...isnt there much quicker and easier ways to get back at God and the bible innocent.gif


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why are you wasting our time if you wont take evidence for proof?
[/quote]

Beats me why LOL some cant look beyond the book!! Some will claim they HAVE LOL but thats just a cover up..they wont look beyond their book...its not how they are supposed to be....not saying there is any harm in it ..but thats what I know


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
ha that's like saying well he has the bloody glove and the knife and he was there... but i don't know why so i don' tthink he killed them....
[/quote]


O J Simpson anyone?? w00t.gif

[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
and yet then you take a book that was written i dunno no even 1700 years ago with no proof what so ever?
[/quote]

Thats what is amusing...they take the word of some guy..who had no clue what science was...he made up a load of stories and wrote that book to suit himself...ironically if that same man where to appear out of nowhere..and told them he was the one that wrote the bible all those years ago...not one of those christians would believe him LOL weird huh??? rofl.gif


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
that logic makes absolutly no sense tome what so ever...
evolution isn't about why, it's about how
[/quote]


What nut said it was about WHY??? LOL of course its about how...and it explains it perfectly..and it makes more sense than the bible theory that we all came from adam LOL yea God was too lazy...he made a man from dust (better keep my house extra clean incase god gets any more ideas....I have enough to feed as it is laugh.gif ) and decided not to create anyomre..instead let the two people he took no time to create to breed like crazy for nearly 1000 years LMAO thats so funny laugh.gif I think when the man was writing that story..he must have been one of the 1st to discover blow LOL


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why didn't your god show up for the first 5 billion years of earth?
or the first 226,000 years of humanity?

[/quote]


Beats me!!! Indeed WHY???


[quote name='manapa99' date='May 20 2006, 05:59 AM' post='1197100']
why is there no historical record of him at all past 4000 years when we kow we have been around much much longer???
that's my why....
[/quote]


Maybe because back then no one knew how to read or write LOL w00t.gif


hee hee rofl.gif
zandore
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ May 19 2006, 11:21 PM) [snapback]1196986[/snapback]

You don't know. That's where Faith comes in. I know that's a cliche response, possibly one might even describe it as a copout response (though i wouldn't see it that way).
AH faith...the acceptence of something as being true WITHOUT evidence of facts to prove it as such.
Paranoid Android
^I see it as the acceptance of something that has a reasonable chance of being true. For example, I have Faith that when I sit down in my chair at the computer, the chair isn't going to break under my weight. I put my Faith in the designers of the chair, in the workmanship of the chair, in the materials of the chair. If I don't have Faith in the sturdiness of the chair, I wouldn't sit on it.
zandore
QUOTE(Paranoid Android @ May 20 2006, 09:57 AM) [snapback]1197421[/snapback]

^I see it as the acceptance of something that has a reasonable chance of being true.
Key words "reasonable chance" but not a positive.

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