zandore, do you get some kind of perverse pleasure in disputing/questioning every comment I make? LOL, that's what a reasonable chance is. I personally see my Faith as a definite, but I also understand that there is no physical evidence to support this belief of mine.

Right.

Regards, PA

When the Earth was forming it could'nt sustain Humans but Dinosaurs & prehistoric animals could adapt and live.When the dinosaurs were extinct they formed the bedrock of the planet their remains made Oil coal & diamonds things that we need in our time.

This was Gods plan for the Earth he then created man to fill the Earth at the right time period evolution is just a phase and creation is like intelligent design.

Just making sure the truth be told.

that's an interesting theory... neither supported by science or any religious text i've ever read but it's interesting...

Its a creation process no matter how you look at it. Actually God created the animals for the company of the man, to show him that he needed somebody. God also created animals as an attribute to their ecosystems, which were for the most part nullified when God wiped out most of humanity in the flood. God is God, he needs not live up to yours or anyones expectations.

It's a process of change, not creation.

According to the Biblical creation account, animals were created before man. So, it would seem that we're here to amuse the animals.

Trust me, the Biblical god comes nowhere close to measuring up to my expectations of what a supreme being should be.

1st of all manapa responded to your previous post LOL

Now animals are here as part of the food chain..plain and simple (sorry sheri lol) man needs to survive...not us we can survive without meat...I am talking of the men that live in places like Africa...that are poor and need to hunt in order to feed their families.....man has been hunting and killing for donkies years...long before your lil wal mart was created LOL seriously though the animals are part of the food chain...at least most are...

Meat is also rather good for you

cuz i loves ya so much you have a free pass on the meat thing 00Berri that is the cutest sig geri so befitting ....

blue I take comfort in knowing that there really isn't a diety as you describe sheesh...children of a lesser god..I'm with RM if i was to chose the diety route my choice would reflect a divine essence that was a much better loving example at least kind i'd do kind........lol.....

more like god was bored with the animals.

Hmmmmm the question of where was God for the first thousands of years after the earths creation... i ask you...where was evolution?
People came to the conclusion using science that evolution must have happened. People came to the conclusion that God exists through feeling, feeling that there must be something more...even without proof. If there was proof of God it wouldnt be called faith would it?
In fact people came to the conclusion that a higher power exists far before people decided that we evolved, that doesnt mean that it is and outdated belief. Evolution came out of a need to explain things, belief in God(or gods) came from the "built in" need for human beings to interact and praise something that is on a higher plane then themselves.

Just a quick question...how do you know that God did not create evolution...he could well have created the bacteria from which every living thing came from.....now thats a theory I came up with myself...it is rather possible...after all we all dont know the REAL truth of the bible...to me the bible was only written by man that had no clue that science exixted....so he came to his own theory that god created a man from dust (note to self best keep house extra clean in case god has any more ideas lol) and he let that man live for nearly 1000 years...which dont make sense to me....cuz if God is all powerful and it was so easy for him to create man so quickly like that...why couldnt have God created more and more people???

There used to be gods for everything...fire, lightening, thunder, wind. Since people had no scientific knowledge this is how they explained everything that happened in the natural world.

evolution is the name of a theory about a process that would be here regardless of humanity, on the other hand if there were no humanity would there stil be religion?
personally i don't think so, but many others may and i respect that...
also evolution is a process that can be witnessed to an extent, and religion can never be witnessed...
and as was already posted humans created many god to explain things that they couldn't understand, that great void of knowledge leads to the need for supernatural forces...

BM: First off you asked me the same thing at the start of this thread, i share your beliefs, evolution isnt an issue to me simply because God could have created it and thats fine.
Rachel: And there is my point exactly people always had religion first, not science, why should that change now...just because we are a little smarter today. There are questions that science cannot answer for us no matter how advanced we are.
Manapa:Religion can be witnessed in miracles and everyday good acts, religion can even we witnessed in bad acts such as jihads.Evolution may have been here but who would understand it, the animals. Humans have the capacity to understand both, we wouldnt be here debating it without humanity. If ifs and but were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas.

So like me you believe in God...as in God in Heaven..from which he cannot be SEEN eight? and you dont believe in other Gods because.they cant be seen...hmmmmmm thats intresting

Actually, we're a lot smarter today. Science has answered a heckuva lot more questions than religion has, or ever will.

If you want to use the argument that we should stick with religion because it was first, then you're going to have to adopt a different god, as the god of the Bible wasn't the first.

Yeah, funny Completely inaccurate, but amusing.

It's quite a common belief, that one.

Well seeing as their religion back then clearly said that they live on mount olympus and they arent there, hence it was wrong. The God i believe in is in heaven, and since nobody has seen Him in heaven and told about it (i havent decided to believe in near death experiences or not yet) i will stick with mine.

I never said the God i believe in was first, however religion as a whole was.

who's expectations? who's standards? You mean yours? The worlds? No wonder people alot of people can't believe in God, they are always trying to bring Him down to their level so they can be God over Him. Explain this one?

The God of the Bible was first. Because the Bible tells me so!

I think everyone is looking too hard for something that is right in front of your faces. Everyone knows the truth deep down inside, but instead of accepting it, they feel the need to look for a more complicated answer. They are afraid to accept that their existence is no more meaningful than that of a monkey, deer, or an ape, or a lion. Your brain is more developed, giving you abilities to do things that other animals cannot, giving the illusion that you are something special. You are just a complex biological system, and you WILL die one day. After you die, there is NOTHING. There is no heaven, no parallel universes, and most of all there is no reincarnation. Make sense? for those of you who are scratching your heads - GO TO SCHOOL! anyone who has basic knowledge of physics, chemistry, and biology can connect the dots and see that the idea of a soul, a god, or an afterlife is completely ignorant. So many people live their lives in denial, with false hope, with irrational and illogical superstitions that i would expect from a monkey, not a HUMAN! How about instead of wasting time creating absurd explanations for your existence, you make the most of every day that you have. I also suggest that everyone who reads this goes back to school, becuase if your in a forum talking about angels, gods, superheroes, witches, etc.... you are in desperate need of some 1+1's and some abc's.

Just because you see no worth in your life dont try to bring everyone down with you. The human brain is more developed then an animals brain so we can think about our own existance, yeah that explains it. The billions of people with faith must just be some stupid victims of an overactive imagination. You are a very sad human being to attack peoples intellect who simply have a system of beliefs that says there is more to life then the physical.

so what are you alive for? If you are an animal, then you have no purpose other than to live and then die after a long fight for survival. Sounds kinda pointless to me.

Its true what Peter said: That scoffers and mockers will make treat us ludicrously because they want to follow after their lusts of the flesh. The world shows it everday and everywhere.

that sounds like something that a five year old would say, recorded history has proven your assumption wrong long before you were born. it would be more to your advantage to make your posts a bit more mature so that people don't mistake you for an elementary school child.
on that note i would like to say that in my experience in lfe i have come to the conclusion that a maturity of mind is not very previlant in many religious fundementalists, ie. those who ignore evidence of things cotrary to their beliefs and such, even when it right in front of them they deny the evidence and start quoting the fables of their book, someday in the future mental maturity will become more common and knowledge will become more important than fairy tales.

^Wow, looks like somebody cant take a joke. How full of pride can you be that you have to openly mock the religion of billions. Its one thing to debate evolution, another to insult someone...yet you're right you're the mature one I disagree with you but you dont see me calling you immature.

When i break it down as far as will will go, i see two basic views on what happens after death... that is after all the "big debate" isn't it? the "big question" we all seek?

1- there IS a soul, and after we die we might be reincarnated, heaven, god, etc...

2- After brain death, memories and personality die and the individuals conciousness ceases to exist.

It seems to me that the first argument is usually deffended with bible quotes, and accusations of "not believing". When evidence is given to support, it is usually something than cannot be re-created in the real world.

The second argument (to me anyways) seems more logical. It is backed by science. Math, physics, chemistry, and biology. When one begins to understand our bodies and brains on a cellular and atomic level, all the pieces come together and logic prevails over superstition and fear. Science is constanly advancing, our knowlede and understanding widening everday.

It is not my intention to offend, mock, or attack anyones belief. I firmly believe in what i am writing, and my beliefs are based on many years of life experience and many hours of research. With all the nonsense i have read on this website, i figured someone needed to take a logical stance.

A side note... I find it hilarious how people who deeply believe in god get so easily offended, and lash out if the idea of no god is even suggested... i think they just proved my point for me.

actually the lack of understanding is on your part. I was referring to the Christian perspective that the one God has always been, though many before Abraham had religions that were devoted to false gods. Whats the oldest competing Monothiestic religion next to the religion of the Hebrews?

Actually, the Bible supports the second motion. The OT doesn't support the body having a soul. The word soul means breath, which other than blood, is the most neccessary to living. The New Testament just supports this in a way that the Greeks would understand it. The Jewish Apostles needed their words translated to Greek, in doing so, much of words that were used for Greek religion such as Hades was transferred over. Hints the reason why John mentions the Hebrew words for Abadon and Armageddon, so that those with Jewish background or those with knowledge of the OT would understand the message Jesus was emplying. So sheol became hades, but the meaning stays the same. You live, you die, then you are resurrected. The whole soul thing is figurative language to the eternal seperation from life and how awful it is. So you are taking a logical stance in saying that when you die, your consciousness ceases, however your logic cannot apply to the resurrection, especially since its a touch scenario regarding the big question; "What happens after we die." But thats not the main question. The main question is, "Are you willing to take that chance." If so, then that is your choice, and by that you are practicing your own religion. 'religion is about making choices.' God have pity on those who don't realize that.

Try as i might, i fail to understand just how one would go about being "resurected"?

When my brain dies, everything that makes me who i am will be lost forever. Sure, you could clone me if you wanted, but it would not be me. My clone would have different experiences, and as a result have different memories and ideas. It is my conciousness that makes me ME. Everyone that is born after i die will be different, i will not magically inhabit someones body. I will rest in eternal nothingness and i wont even know i'm dead.

I would love to be able to wrap my mind around some of the ideas that people put out there...

well the concept isn't that we lose our memories. We are assured that everything we do is recorded by God and will be judged by the saints. This being said, the judgement still stands when resurrected. As far as the resurrection being logical. C'mon, we're talking about an All Powerful God! Also, we the righteous are resurrected, they are resurrected into glorified and uncorruptible bodies that know no suffering or death.

I wish i could believe, i really do. Its really strange to not have faith, even when all of my family and most of my friends believe in god. I was raised in a Christain home and went to Church, but when i began high school i began to ask questions and have doubts. Nobody could answer my questions about God, or give me evidence. What made it even worse was at the same time, courses in school were answering the questions that nobody else could, and showing me with tests, experiments, and concrete evidence.

http://newton.nap.edu/html/creationism/evidence.html

http://anthro.palomar.edu/evolve/evolve_3.htm

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/evol...on_evidence.htm

http://evonet.sdsc.edu/evoscisociety/follow_up_links.htm

Check these out, and remember - Keep an open mind, but dont accept things without questioning. Think for youself, draw your own conclusions.

A side note about what Peter said... Yeah about the lusts of the flesh? It seems that the scoffers and mockers are not the only ones indulging in their lusts. Read the newspaper? Apparently priests have a thing for little boys, AND apparently more people have been killed over religion than all other causes of war combined!

There is always that one conclusion that science itself supports: Its either all right or completely wrong. Since there are questions that niether science or history can explain, its not all right. Its got a lot of good pointers, but they don't mean anything to the purpose of living. Whats the use in living if their is no purpose. Yet we all want to live forever. We all want to do something great. We all want someone to love. We all want things that are against our nature and yet for some reason we pursue them without even believing in them sometimes. Its about faith. Science can't tell you how time began, but faith can tell you that God was always there. Science can't provide you with a proper origin, only the foot steps back to the origin. Science can't explain the phenomenons that happen these days, all it can say is that its energy. Thats the only explanantion it has for ghosts and mysterious signs. When everything gets old and so do you, you may rethink these things and see if they helped you in life at all. Did evolution provide you with a reason to live? Are you kids whom you would die for just animals? Does it make sense to marry one woman (which is of religious origin) when the nature of animals (especially primates) is to get a girl pregnant and then leave. Science doesn't give you the answers that you need to know, it only gives 'evidence.'

Religion being the causes of war is beginning to sound like a cliche. Religion doesn't kill people, people kill people. The Bible already fortold about this as well. I would show you, but I think Becky's Mom would jump on my case since she has a very high respect for the Church of Rome. If you want to know, I can show you. The book of Revelation warned us. 2 Thessalonians 2 warnes us. Even Jesus warned us in Matthew 7:21-22 warned us of them. It was fortold that apostasy would come and that the man of sin would come and decieve people into committing lawlessness (such as murder.) I would really like to show if possible, but only if you want me to. I'll give you the history and the Bible verses and you can research it yourself and come to your own conclusion about this.

You are right Blue I sure do hold respect for the Roamn Catholic Church...and guess what I HOLD RESPECT for the Christian church too...just like I hold respect for other churches or places of worship...I know the true meaning of love thy neighbor

But you are right when you say....religion doesnt kill people...people kill people...cuz people USE religion as a poor excuse to kill..they calim its their Gods will in SOME (plz note I said some) cases

Yes, I mean my expectations. That's why in my post I wrote, "Trust me, the Biblical god comes nowhere close to measuring up to my expectations of what a supreme being should be." Maybe I should have put "my" in bold and capital letters to make it easier to understand.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never stated that my expectations for a supreme being entailed bringing him or her down to my level, did I? In fact, I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. I've sat here and tried, and my mind just won't allow me to jump to that conclusion based on what I said.

Forget evolution people....just forget it...a umer has proof that we came from Adam & Eve LOL ohh yes...he has given what he calls a logical explaination in his topic - Shame - LMAO

His logical explaination is...if we cover ourselves up hide what he calls our shame..then there MUST have been an Adam & Eve i mean

HONEST!!!

One, We are the only "evolved" animals on the planet. so we just happen to evolve, while everything els didnt, 2 we evolved the same all over the planet, with slightly different variation. we ARENT evolving physically now, so we evolved real fast, then stoped, obviously nothing els has evolved like this that we know of, and if somthing has, its smart enough to go, look at me!

we just happen to have higher being capabilitys, unfortunatly most humans stay at the level of animal conciousness. In essence, evolution of humans is just an indoctrinated theory, and its wide spread becouse our animal concious friends couldnt find anything better. Ironic how science works huh? this that and the other thing are DEFINITE...untill we find a better truth. this that and the other thing is true! we did tests..i know..thats all so,untill some being finds a better truth, and we only believe truths we can prove, if we cant prove it, well grap the nearist thing we LIKE.

Humans most likely had help in evolution, i mean sh**, even the sides of our brain differ, ones more based on intuition, the other logic, wtf is with that?
Personally i do not know how we came into being, i do not really care, as contemplating this is not a place for my focuse right now, but we are pobly cross breeds, although that may be iffy, i can tell you this, we are reflections of nature, our bodys are build in gods imige, literally.
want me to prove it? the path of least resistance, a spiral.
LEFT SPIRAL, RIGHT SPIRAL.
our bodys are spirals,the entire thing, built of spirals, sucks i dont have a picture, ill find one later, interestingly enough, some of you guys may have a triangle were your solar plexus is, a triangle is a 3 lined spiral. the perfect united human, one who has united the femal and male aspec of the body, is the center of a vortex. mabey later ill draw pictures. anyways look in the mirror, you chest? a left and right spiral, eyes,spirals, sh** some people even have curly hair,ha! Wanna know what yin/yang is? the connection of a left spiral and a right spiral, right smack dabbin in the middle. you may not believe me, but its their in front of your eyes, for those of you who smoke, watch how the smoke moves..spirals, even our animalistic minds work in this way, we always try and take the path of least resistance. ha, ill draw a picture and put it on here later, but a left spiral and a right spiral, made of three lines, with a triangle as the center, makes a little human. llol. But! our we intelligant becouse we are complex? or complex becouse we are intelligant?
we may have been made perfect by nature, and we may have also had a little help in the evolution of our intelligance. Im not one to say left or right, but the information will present itself if you truly seek with a pure heart.
Seek with a pure heart,and you will Find.

YOUR EXPECTATIONS is what said it all. When you expect something from a supreme being, you are not really treating them as supreme. In all respects, it should be them expecting things of you, not the other way around. So indirectly and unknowingly, you are bring God down to your level, even lower IMO.

well? how come other primates don't dress up and hide their parts? How come they aren't ashamed of it. You mean, by some chance, we evolved to give a darn about our 'private' parts exposed? You may think its funny, but its not really a laughing matter. We are no where near like primates that its a shame to even consider being evolved from them.

Maybe you should read what I wrote again, and then think about it. You are assuming things and jumping to conclusions.

Why exactly do you find it so disagreeable that I don't believe as you do?

We evolved to give a darn about staying warm. We are not born to be ashamed of our nudity.

Um...we ARE primates.

HOLD up there BLUE....you are saying that ALL of these members here on UM that believe in evolution..and the millions and millions of others that believe in it...its a SHAME??? And yet you sit there day in day out crying over your faith saying you should be entitled to it...but the sec someone believes in something YOU DONT..its a SHAME....so Blue if I say its a SHAME you believe in your bible...would you think that was a fair comment?

Something tells me Blue you sure wouldnt

You ask what’s the point blue is if there is no god and therein lies its origins and purpose
people need a point, a reason, a purpose it’s the irony of intellect the price of mind because we can conceptualise, imagine and use our brain for tasks out side of our nature or biological requirements we can imagine our own mortality we can see the end. Because of this we need an extension of self beyond death a mystical something more and it takes many forms your religion being one.

To see humanity as something more than it is ,separate from the environment ,detached from the animal kingdom is arrogance in its purest form and has no basis in fact or life and should be disregarded as nothing more than an extension of ego
After all your own body is a universe to the small, millions of bacteria, mites all manner of life reside in and on your body you are part of the environment like it or not or is that something you cannot see too.
I would have thought that this would be a good thing in everyone’s eyes to be apart of this amazing eco system to be a small cog in earths biosphere a small part of a larger whole.
The earth is an ever changing smelting pot for life things come things go
And most importantly things change
The world you suggest blue is static, void of change a still world , a selfish world where it is as it is just for us other life reduced to just mere companions, playthings there purpose only to serve human needs to serve the human need to be more than its biology to me this is utterly arrogant and absolutely absurd.

And you base these views on one book as I said to you earlier blue its fine to discount it because its is contrary to your teachings I cant ague with that what I can say is though its very hard to take anything as true, correct, factual on a statistic of one
That’s not to say there isn’t a god only that your bible is incorrect

I really do feel for those too blind to see how the world works too arrogant to accept facts it saddens me that in this modern age there are still people with the mindset of the middle ages to me it seems sterile and lacking in any real tangible substance or understanding and if anything acts as a detrimental view that does more harm to religion than good.

You are right when you say the lord is thy Sheppard you do indeed take on the form of sheep and all the insight they encompass

avatar186 you post makes no sense at all are you refering to the double helix ? you either know nothing of evolution or your just rambling

I’m getting a little tired of this now the ignorance suggested by some hurts my eyes to read and numbs my brain I may need to close it entirely soon maybe im converting ?

lol not

its a shame TO ME to be referred to as a descendant from a monkey. Here we are, the greatest species on earth, and all we have to say for ourselves is that we came from monkies? C'mon, this is just as laughable as when you laughed at the guy who said shame was evidence of Adam and Eve. No I don't feel offended when you say that me believing in the Bible is a shame. That's how you feel about it. ITS YOUR OPINION. I guess I'll be more specific about my feelings, or just not post them next time. I'm sorry if I caused any offense by this expression.

Why should you care who I follow? Be your own god. See if that saves you. *it won't.* You can feel insulted any way you choose, but the reality of things still stand; we all die, and you will have to face this reality someday. And that is something that neither science or the human will can do to stop from happening. So go on about your double helixes and your ages of earth and how me must feel honored to be a part of the 'ecosystem' that is currently taking a dump on us, and I will follow God.

Oh and the Bible isn't just one book and one account of God. Its by ignorance that you look at it like that. The Bible is a library of accounts and holds just as much credibility as any book. Sorry.

you are no doubt sad, very sad so sad its pathetic. can't handle the pressure so you bring it here?.how old r u 10? if not u are up there. how bout you just laugh your way out of it again huh? you hypocrite, looks who being immature now. ur a joke enough said and heres my proof. what a dead set joke

blue.....WHAT are your EXPECTATIONS from God?

I have no expectations of God. How could I expect anything from the Creator? He created me, he gave me life. How can I expect anything from him? He doesn't catre to my needs. He doesn't change the world for my benefit. He doesn't stop the rain when I would like to go outside. Who am I that God should be mindful of me? All I know is what he said. He said he loves us and tells us to trust in Him to keep us safe, at peace, and in eternal life and joy. That's not my expectations, those are his promises for our life hereafter. Not neccessarily on earth, but thats so we don't get too attached to a world that will soon meet its destruction. So, I expect NOTHING from God. If he is willing, he will do so.

Just a little advise concerning Becky's Mom, she's just as zealous as you and feels just as strongly about her belief as you do. Now, just because she is mean to you, it doesn't mean you should be the same to her. Let her insult you as much as she wants. Then the name of religion can be taken from all blame on the hatefulness of people. Make a good example of a Christ filled life, and many will forget the past and see the truth about Christ's teaching. Thus, I encourage you to be a good ambassador of Jesus Christ's kingdom, in which we are all sent out to invite as many as we find to the great Wedding Feast of our LORD and Savior Jesus Christ. God bless