Help - Search - Members - Calendar
Full Version: Why wont evolution work for you ?
Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Spirituality vs Skepticism
Pages: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18
Big cheese
Good post manapa99 thumbsup.gif

Yes P/A I think we have thumbsup.gif I think I understand a little better how some believers see Evolution and yes I know uv said you don’t have a problem with it grin2.gif

I think it is clear from this thread and others that most believers doubt stems from not really understanding evolution and half knowledge of its workings.

I think if it was understood then I feel it would fit in with most modern believers world view.
I think there are some that do understand it as a concept but choose to see the evidence as inconclusive. There are those that understand it but don’t see it as in conflict with there god and those that are just plain ignorant of the facts involved

The evidence is there to see.

Evolution doesn’t state there is no god and as an N/B I can accept that one can be both religious and accept evolution and the two in no way in conflict

Again I say the evidence is there I think that has been shown in some of the posts here

Gwyny
Ya know i find it very funny that in this forum people believe Jesus was mentally unstable yet dont believe in him in the first place, then try to prove evolution.....with evolution, then try to say the bible is wrong but cant prove it.....

Listen i believe that adam and eve were creations by god and that god created the earth...that simple... i dont have to prove anything to you because you people mean nothing to me....you may all be wonderful people, but by shoving your views on all the christians that come in here will never change my mind about ANYTHING. Honestly, there are more nb in here than christians and y'all know it, and everytime a different christian comes in here you say something to offend them like God is fake or, he CANT exsist, or faith is ignorace, do you really think they are NOT gonna get hot headed when you do that. I'll admit i have my moments, but it's only because i was provoked by someone else who either mis-reads me or fails to read anything and pass judgement.

Honestly, i dont care anymore, you people are seriously lost, and i will pray for you, i dont know maybe i dont care but i sure as hell know God does and the least you could do is give HIM credit for the greatest inventions of all time, Earth and Humans!
Big cheese
You seem to have a lot of anger and frustration qwyny .

At no point has anyone making valid arguments for evolution criticise Jesus nor would any intelligent person do so when arguing for evolution it simply has nothing to do with it. You see we offer facts and evidence and a more probable alternative to your god and your faiths explanation on origins. The evidence is there to be read ,cooperated and digested .The point of this thread was for me to understand a little better were believers doubts come from .If you have read all of the posts in this thread rather than posting an inane knee-jerk reaction you would see this. I can only speak for my self but by showing evolution as the most probable mechanism for the diversity of life I do not intend nor do I think it shows an absence of your god that is another thread entirely .Although The literal interpretation of the bible as in your reference to adman cannot be seen to be true with current evidence

What I have learnt from this post is that people doubt evolution for the following reasons

They lack the understanding and knowledge to fully grasp what evolution is
They are too closed minded and ignorant to entertain any ideas out side of there religious teachings
They understand but choose to ignore the evidence
They understand but see no conflict with there faith

What category would you fit in qwyny?

So you go pray for your self and what ever else that makes you feel better and leave the rest of us to discuss evolution in a more intelligent manner if however you decide to learn little bit more about it and discuss your points in a more constructive manner then a more productive discourse will take place until then be happy
thumbsup.gif
zandore
QUOTE(Irish @ May 4 2006, 05:15 PM) [snapback]1174732[/snapback]

It is not a matter of misquoting the theory of evolution or the bible. Again you are assuming where I am coming from. I am simply saying that there is an immense lack of evidence to support either theory at this time. The supposed hominids (creatures in-between ape and human that evolutionists believe used to exist) bones and skull record used by evolutionists often consists of `finds' which are thoroughly unrevealing and inconsistent.
There might be a lack of evidence right now....there might always be gaps in that evidence....BUT those gaps are slowly getting filled in.
zandore
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 5 2006, 08:01 AM) [snapback]1175544[/snapback]

Honestly, i dont care anymore, you people are seriously lost, and i will pray for you, i dont know maybe i dont care but i sure as hell know God does and the least you could do is give HIM credit for the greatest inventions of all time, Earth and Humans!
Gwyny go ahead and pray......I will think for you kiss.gif thumbsup.gif
Irish
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 09:08 AM) [snapback]1175749[/snapback]

There might be a lack of evidence right now....there might always be gaps in that evidence....BUT those gaps are slowly getting filled in.

As long as there are gaps and inconsistencies it will remain the same as creation science only theory and not conclusive. Incidentally this may surprise you Zandore; I feel that creation science is more a foe to Christianity than evolution science.
Irish
RachelM
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 5 2006, 07:01 AM) [snapback]1175544[/snapback]

Ya know i find it very funny that in this forum people believe Jesus was mentally unstable yet dont believe in him in the first place, then try to prove evolution.....with evolution, then try to say the bible is wrong but cant prove it.....

Listen i believe that adam and eve were creations by god and that god created the earth...that simple... i dont have to prove anything to you because you people mean nothing to me....you may all be wonderful people, but by shoving your views on all the christians that come in here will never change my mind about ANYTHING. Honestly, there are more nb in here than christians and y'all know it, and everytime a different christian comes in here you say something to offend them like God is fake or, he CANT exsist, or faith is ignorace, do you really think they are NOT gonna get hot headed when you do that. I'll admit i have my moments, but it's only because i was provoked by someone else who either mis-reads me or fails to read anything and pass judgement.

Honestly, i dont care anymore, you people are seriously lost, and i will pray for you, i dont know maybe i dont care but i sure as hell know God does and the least you could do is give HIM credit for the greatest inventions of all time, Earth and Humans!


I've highlighted a few of the points in your rant post.

Do you mean funny ha-ha, or funny peculiar?

I guess this post was "one of your moments"?

I think this is the first time I've heard someone cuss while they're preaching. Had the preachers done this when I was growing up, I sure as heck would've enjoyed church more.

I really don't understand why you would be so upset about anyone offering you a different viewpoint while you're conversing in a forum entitled "Spirituality vs. Skepticism". That's what the "vs." means.

And, I'm sorry but there is more evidence that points towards evolution than there to creation. But, you're more than free to believe whatever you want. I just like knowing over believing.
fallingalien
because, just thinking, it would be so dumb if we came from animals, where did they come from? and where did that come from? and where did that come from>? and endless chain that lasts forever, that has to be a creator.

single cell organizims can't grow into complex DNZ
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(fallingalien @ May 5 2006, 01:12 PM) [snapback]1175902[/snapback]

because, just thinking, it would be so dumb if we came from animals, where did they come from? and where did that come from? and where did that come from>? and endless chain that lasts forever, that has to be a creator.

single cell organizims can't grow into complex DNZ


Can you prove that they don't?
Imaginary Friend
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 5 2006, 07:01 AM) [snapback]1175544[/snapback]

Ya know i find it very funny that in this forum ...
Listen i believe that Adam and eve were creations by god and that god created the earth...that simple... i don't have to prove anything to you because you people mean nothing to me....

.....I'll admit i have my moments, but it's only because i was provoked by someone else who either mis-reads me or fails to read anything and pass judgment. (So you do care about having to prove something to "us", else no one of us would be able to provoke anything amid that which you feel secure in believing!)

Honestly, i don't care anymore, you people are seriously lost, and i will pray for you, i don't know maybe i don't care but i sure as hell know God does and the least you could do is give HIM credit for the greatest inventions of all time, Earth and Humans!



Fascinating! How angry you get about other people holding opinions not in accord with yours. And yet you don't care about any of us or what we think, that's why we are able to provoke you to rage like this and take on an offensive attitude about those things you believe!. If you were sure of yourself no one could ever threaten what you live, with their mere opinion. And then you close all that with how you honestly don't care anymore! (Or obviously any less, less the rant would not be posted!)

Someone here once said that between you and Bluefinger who use to allegedly post his thoughts under your screen name before getting his own account, that engaging in a discussion with the two of you was like trying to talk to schizophrenic twins.

Now I see you, and what they meant when they saw it early on. You are so frightened of this world you can't see straight! That's why you see everyone that doesn't see things like you do, as a threat, which is why you engage in an offensive in defense of your personal opinions , which in the process you seek to disrespect in others right and entitlement to hold for themselves.

And what makes you imagine you and your opinion should matter to us!? What? You think you have an exclusive domain in declaring who you like or no and it should matter to anyone but you that has to keep that attitude alive on board for as long as you encounter those you dislike!? As long as they post you'll be mad! And they win in making you that way. Because your fear makes you weak.


QUOTE
"How inexpressible is the meanness of being a hypocrite! how horrible is it to be a mischievous and malignant hypocrite. " Voltaire

Tangerine Sheri
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 08:10 AM) [snapback]1175752[/snapback]

Gwyny go ahead and pray......I will think for you kiss.gif thumbsup.gif

Zan this is my new favorite quote........will be going in my quote lol.....
zandore
grin2.gif
QUOTE(Irish @ May 5 2006, 11:16 AM) [snapback]1175760[/snapback]
As long as there are gaps and inconsistencies it will remain the same as creation science only theory and not conclusive. Incidentally this may surprise you Zandore; I feel that creation science is more a foe to Christianity than evolution science.
Irish
So you did read the recap at the end of the link I gave thumbsup.gif Bully for you my friend!

Need I remind you the definition of "THEORY"?

Dispite the different name "creation science" is still the same old creation story.




QUOTE(Sheri berri @ May 5 2006, 03:22 PM) [snapback]1176051[/snapback]
QUOTE
Gwyny go ahead and pray......I will think for you kiss.gif thumbsup.gif
Zan this is my new favorite quote........will be going in my quote lol.....
thumbsup.gif Go for it
Irish
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 01:32 PM) [snapback]1176070[/snapback]

grin2.gif So you did read the recap at the end of the link I gave thumbsup.gif Bully for you my friend!

Need I remind you the definition of "THEORY"?

Dispite the different name "creation science" is still the same old creation story.

THEORY = speculation abstract thought or contemplation. An idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture.

Scientific principle to explain phenomena. A set of facts, propositions, or principles analyzed in their relation to one another and used, especially in science, to explain phenomena.

In theory= Under hypothetical or ideal circumstance but not in reality.

Yep! The ducks are in order. thumbsup.gif
Irish

zandore
QUOTE(Irish @ May 5 2006, 03:44 PM) [snapback]1176087[/snapback]
THEORY = speculation abstract thought or contemplation. An idea of or belief about something arrived at through speculation or conjecture.

Scientific principle to explain phenomena. A set of facts, propositions, or principles analyzed in their relation to one another and used, especially in science, to explain phenomena.

In theory= Under hypothetical or ideal circumstance but not in reality.

Yep! The ducks are in order. thumbsup.gif
Irish
A lose definition at best.....

In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

SOURCE


user posted image
Irish
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 02:30 PM) [snapback]1176156[/snapback]

A lose definition at best.....

In science, a theory is a proposed description, explanation, or model of the manner of interaction of a set of natural phenomena, capable of predicting future occurrences or observations of the same kind, and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. It follows from this that for scientists "theory" and "fact" do not necessarily stand in opposition. For example, it is a fact that an apple dropped on earth has been observed to fall towards the center of the planet, and the theory which explains why the apple behaves so is the current theory of gravitation.

SOURCE
user posted image

Does your dog Bite grin2.gif
user posted image
zandore
When he is not ridding a bike....ask him

user posted image

Lets get back on topic.
Avinash_Tyagi
That's so cute grin2.gif
zandore
A dog gone biker...... innocent.gif
Imaginary Friend
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 03:58 PM) [snapback]1176185[/snapback]

A dog gone biker...... innocent.gif

Yeah, sometimes that happens even in the best of families! blush.gif tongue.gif

This is Fluffy. user posted image
Before she discovered the powers of Lucifer she was a cat.


(runs) laugh.gif The power of evilution.
Irish
Evolution Smevolotion what kind of a dog show is this thread turning into?
Back on topic now!

user posted image
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(zandore @ May 5 2006, 09:48 PM) [snapback]1176174[/snapback]

When he is not ridding a bike....ask him

user posted image

Lets get back on topic.

LOL How Cute



Ok this time back on topic w00t.gif
manapa99
QUOTE
QUOTE
First we have Mutation, this is a random effect which is 99.99% of the time harmful to an organism and offers no benefits. Very rarely does this mutation offer a benefit to the organism.


QUOTE

Again, there is not one shred of evidence to support this. It may at best be
There are no transitional links and intermediate forms in either the fossil record or the modern world. Therefore, there is no actual evidence that evolution has occurred either in the past or the present.


I'm not sure what you are talking about here as to no scientific evidence...
scientists have witnesed many mutations and many genitic mutations cause certain deseiases such as down syndrome excetera. There is also a very predictable rate that they happen, wich also has been proven...

Very large mutations are rare, but mutations are ubiquitous. There is roughly 0.1 to 1 mutation per genome replication in viruses and 0.003 mutations per genome per replication in microbes. Mutation rates for higher organisms vary quite a bit between organisms, but excluding the parts of the genome in which most mutations are neutral (the junk DNA), the mutation rates are also roughly 0.003 per effective genome per cell replication. Since sexual reproduction involves many cell replications, humans have about 1.6 mutations per generation. This is likely an underestimate, because mutations with very small effect are easy to miss in the studies. Including neutral mutations, each human zygote has about 64 new mutations (Drake et al. 1998). Another estimate concludes 175 mutations per generation, including at least 3 deleterious mutations (Nachman and Crowell 2000).
link

Most mutations are neutral. Nachman and Crowell estimate around 3 deleterious mutations out of 175 per generation in humans (2000). Of those that have significant effect, most are harmful, but a significant fraction are beneficial. The harmful mutations do not survive long, and the beneficial mutations survive much longer, so when you consider only surviving mutations, most are beneficial.


Beneficial mutations are commonly observed. They are common enough to be problems in the cases of antibiotic resistance in disease-causing organisms and pesticide resistance in agricultural pests (e.g., Newcomb et al. 1997; these are not merely selection of pre-existing variation.) They can be repeatedly observed in laboratory populations (Wichman et al. 1999). Other examples include the following:
Mutations have given bacteria the ability to degrade nylon (Prijambada et al. 1995).
Plant breeders have used mutation breeding to induce mutations and select the beneficial ones (FAO/IAEA 1977).
Certain mutations in humans confer resistance to AIDS (Dean et al. 1996; Sullivan et al. 2001) or to heart disease (Long 1994; Weisgraber et al. 1983).
A mutation in humans makes bones strong (Boyden et al. 2002).
Transposons are common, especially in plants, and help to provide beneficial diversity (Moffat 2000).
In vitro mutation and selection can be used to evolve substantially improved function of RNA molecules, such as a ribozyme (Wright and Joyce 1997).


Whether a mutation is beneficial or not depends on environment. A mutation that helps the organism in one circumstance could harm it in another. When the environment changes, variations that once were counteradaptive suddenly become favored. Since environments are constantly changing, variation helps populations survive, even if some of those variations do not do as well as others. When beneficial mutations occur in a changed environment, they generally sweep through the population rapidly (Elena et al. 1996).


High mutation rates are advantageous in some environments. Hypermutable strains of Pseudomonas aeruginosa are found more commonly in the lungs of cystic fibrosis patients, where antibiotics and other stresses increase selection pressure and variability, than in patients without cystic fibrosis (Oliver et al. 2000).


Note that the existence of any beneficial mutations is a falsification of the young-earth creationism model (Morris 1985, 13).

link

QUOTE
According to Evolutionists Eskimos evolved like the rest of us from primitive man and apparently at one time did not wear cloths and animals adapt to their inviroment by growing lots of hair. Ask any Polar Bear or Seal. So the poor Eskimo having a shortage of clothing stores would have to had evolved over night or became Popsicles.


it seems from this statment that you are very fond of quotiong what scientitst say, but don't have enough knowledge of the subject to understand the quotes you are using, or are getting them from someone who takes them very much out of context....
yes we did evolve from primative humans, but on fact that you are missing is that we are still evolving and changing.... as neanderthals changed to their climates... they grew shorter limbs and flat noses to help conserve heat... hair is not the only way to deal with the cold, primative man long before homeo sapeians most likely made use of clothing, so it was around for quite some time before eskimos migrated to where they did, and yes if you do some research you can clearly see they are shorter have flater noses, and have used many of the same techniques for dealing with the cold that many of the primitive humans used... so it didn't happen over night at all...

QUOTE
Listen i believe that adam and eve were creations by god and that god created the earth...that simple... i dont have to prove anything to you because you people mean nothing to me....you may all be wonderful people, but by shoving your views on all the christians that come in here will never change my mind about ANYTHING. Honestly, there are more nb in here than christians and y'all know it, and everytime a different christian comes in here you say something to offend them like God is fake or, he CANT exsist, or faith is ignorace, do you really think they are NOT gonna get hot headed when you do that. I'll admit i have my moments, but it's only because i was provoked by someone else who either mis-reads me or fails to read anything and pass judgement.


i'm sorry if something you have read here has made you angry but you are on a public forum called sprituality vs. skepticism....
if you are not secure enough to have dicusions with people who have different views then you then maybe you should consider not coming here at all becuase it can be very heated at time i know this from experiance....
and as for what you believe, well that's your choice, but just because you believe something doesn't make all the other facts and observations that are contrary to it false....
and no offence but blind faith is in a sence... ignorance... unsure.gif

thumbsup.gif
Imaginary Friend
QUOTE(Irish @ May 5 2006, 04:22 PM) [snapback]1176209[/snapback]

What kind of a dog show is this thread turning into?


Dog show!?user posted image
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(Imaginary Friend @ May 5 2006, 06:28 PM) [snapback]1176282[/snapback]

Dog show!?user posted image


user posted image
mako
Irish, IM and Zandore, you know you guys are just a little weird, doncha? yes.gif grin2.gif grin2.gif
Irish
QUOTE(mako @ May 5 2006, 04:34 PM) [snapback]1176296[/snapback]

Irish, IM and Zandore, you know you guys are just a little weird, doncha? yes.gif grin2.gif grin2.gif

It's one of our redeeming qualitys innocent.gif
Imaginary Friend

Speak fer yerself Irish man! user posted image



rofl.gif laugh.gif
manapa99
QUOTE(fallingalien @ May 5 2006, 01:12 PM) [snapback]1175902[/snapback]

because, just thinking, it would be so dumb if we came from animals, where did they come from? and where did that come from? and where did that come from>? and endless chain that lasts forever, that has to be a creator.

single cell organizims can't grow into complex DNZ

It would be so dumb if we came from a creator... because where did they come from? It’s an endless chain that lasts forever....
blink.gif

It just makes since that single celled organisms can grow in to multi... like an embryo can grow in to a human (animal) thumbsup.gif
Imaginary Friend
QUOTE(manapa99 @ May 5 2006, 05:48 PM) [snapback]1176311[/snapback]

It would be so dumb if we came from a creator... because where did they come from? It’s an endless chain that lasts forever....
blink.gif

It just makes since that single celled organisms can grow in to multi... like an embryo can grow in to a human (animal) thumbsup.gif


Beautiful! thumbsup.gif

I once had someone ask if I was christian. I said no. Then they suddenly looked panicked and said, in a higher pitch of voice, "But you do believe in god." I'm thinking who are you trying to convince with that one!? It's certainly not a question. But you do....

So I told her, madam, I revere that which gave life to god.
She turned and walked away. I figured if her voice got that high after I said no, to being a christian, that final answer probably made her mute for a week. Suddenly challenged to imagine such was possible. Something that gave life to god... ewww ahhhh. LOL Can't be! There ain't any pictures, or books, or prophets about that one!! No way man. laugh.gif
zandore
QUOTE(mako @ May 5 2006, 06:34 PM) [snapback]1176296[/snapback]

Irish, IM and Zandore, you know you guys are just a little weird, doncha? yes.gif grin2.gif grin2.gif

OH WELL.....that was fun!

Back on topic now:

Irish:
I found this thread here on UM: Creationism dismissed as 'paganism'

Started by our own Web Master.
Gwyny
QUOTE(Big cheese @ May 5 2006, 06:25 AM) [snapback]1175560[/snapback]

You seem to have a lot of anger and frustration qwyny .

At no point has anyone making valid arguments for evolution criticise Jesus nor would any intelligent person do so when arguing for evolution it simply has nothing to do with it. You see we offer facts and evidence and a more probable alternative to your god and your faiths explanation on origins. The evidence is there to be read ,cooperated and digested .The point of this thread was for me to understand a little better were believers doubts come from .If you have read all of the posts in this thread rather than posting an inane knee-jerk reaction you would see this. I can only speak for my self but by showing evolution as the most probable mechanism for the diversity of life I do not intend nor do I think it shows an absence of your god that is another thread entirely .Although The literal interpretation of the bible as in your reference to adman cannot be seen to be true with current evidence

What I have learnt from this post is that people doubt evolution for the following reasons

They lack the understanding and knowledge to fully grasp what evolution is
They are too closed minded and ignorant to entertain any ideas out side of there religious teachings
They understand but choose to ignore the evidence
They understand but see no conflict with there faith

What category would you fit in qwyny?

So you go pray for your self and what ever else that makes you feel better and leave the rest of us to discuss evolution in a more intelligent manner if however you decide to learn little bit more about it and discuss your points in a more constructive manner then a more productive discourse will take place until then be happy
thumbsup.gif


well i for one am not close minded, i looked up the entire theory of this so called "evolution" and it so flawed that i dont know why people even believe it. And yes i go on someone elses word and that is God's word. Why? well reguardless of how many people say the bible contradicts itself, i read it and my husband(in the orginal text) did and when i read i see no contradictions, i dont see any catholic influence and i dont see Man's writing. I see prophecies fullfilled and i see good values and morals written by the hand of God.

What you dont understand is, whenever someone brings up a good point i think about it Research it then make heads or tails of it. I dont just say "well i dont believe it" and then never look it up...that my friend would be ignorance.

I've studied both sides and God's just matches up more to me...sorry, i dont have to take your side to have an open mind....
Gwyny
QUOTE(RachelM @ May 5 2006, 11:05 AM) [snapback]1175891[/snapback]

I've highlighted a few of the points in your rant post.

Do you mean funny ha-ha, or funny peculiar?

I guess this post was "one of your moments"?

I think this is the first time I've heard someone cuss while they're preaching. Had the preachers done this when I was growing up, I sure as heck would've enjoyed church more.

I really don't understand why you would be so upset about anyone offering you a different viewpoint while you're conversing in a forum entitled -----------------
From: Shar
Date: May 5, 2006 1:22 PM



And, I'm sorry but there is more evidence that points towards evolution than there to creation. But, you're more than free to believe whatever you want. I just like knowing over believing.


Ya know i have been saying the exact same thing all along...it wasnt that they offended me with another viewpoint it was that i had already heard that viewpoint a million times...would you rather me come in here and compromise my belief just so nobody gets stirred up? No i will not come in here and say i believe something if i dont...thats why this is a spiritualty vs skepticism note the vs.!!!! i have every right to believe what i want...

oh yeah and the bible never says that cursing is wrong...as a matter of fact it doesnt even say anything about it...most of the time when they make a reference to what we are aloud to say, it usually means you cant use the lords name in vain...
Gwyny
QUOTE(Sheri berri @ May 5 2006, 01:22 PM) [snapback]1176051[/snapback]

Zan this is my new favorite quote........will be going in my quote lol.....


and you people wonder why i get hot headed...you can think all you want whether it be in heaven or hell, but you have to choose or choose not to pray to get there...
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 6 2006, 10:48 PM) [snapback]1177308[/snapback]

well i for one am not close minded, i looked up the entire theory of this so called "evolution" and it so flawed that i dont know why people even believe it.


The same can be eaisly said about the bible...what with the so called stories of adam & eve living for hundreds of years...giving birth to all kinds oh humans like Chineese, Indians, Blacks, whites yellows ect ect..LOL its laughable

So tell me Gwyny...what is it that you think is so flawed with evolution...assuming you know anything about it?? hmm.gif
Gwyny
QUOTE(Beckys_Mom @ May 6 2006, 04:02 PM) [snapback]1177316[/snapback]

The same can be eaisly said about the bible...what with the so called stories of adam & eve living for hundreds of years...giving birth to all kinds oh humans like Chineese, Indians, Blacks, whites yellows ect ect..LOL its laughable

So tell me Gwyny...what is it that you think is so flawed with evolution...assuming you know anything about it?? hmm.gif

read my posts...good god BM i never said it was fact i was saying i dont believe evolution..i believe in Creation, i never said you have to...

If you read my earlier posts you would see that Carbon 14 dating is wrong they did it to a freshly killed baby seal and the test showed that it died 1,300 years ago....so whats flawed...the bible that nobody can prove true or false or Science which we can proven false and not true (knowing the fact that science is inconsistent and the bible is not)
JMPD1
hmmmmm, I may have missed the answer to this question, but....

Assuming the biblical story of adam and eve is factual, and evolution is false, how do you explain the various genotypes found around the globe?

Why are Inuits suited to live in the artic, and Masai suited to life in the fierce deserts of Africa?

Can any offer an expalnation that does not involve evolution?
frednn
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 6 2006, 11:41 PM) [snapback]1177353[/snapback]

If you read my earlier posts you would see that Carbon 14 dating is wrong they did it to a freshly killed baby seal and the test showed that it died 1,300 years ago


The dating isn't wrong. The carbon they dated is that old. See: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html

QUOTE
This is the well-known reservoir effect that occurs also with mollusks and other animals that live in the water. It happens when "old" carbon is introduced into the water. In the above case of the seal, old carbon dioxide is present within deep ocean bottom water that has been circulating through the ocean for thousands of years before upwelling along the Antarctic coast.


Mystery solved. All these so called flaws with evolution end up having valid explainations. Anyhow arguing that carbon dating is wrong seems to be more of an argument against physics, geology and chemistry than evolution.
manapa99
QUOTE
If you read my earlier posts you would see that Carbon 14 dating is wrong they did it to a freshly killed baby seal and the test showed that it died 1,300 years ago....so whats flawed...the bible that nobody can prove true or false or Science which we can proven false and not true (knowing the fact that science is inconsistent and the bible is not)

as i have already pointed out, and as frednn also pointed out that has been explained, and carbon daiting has been cross checked with multiple other dating systems and checks out over and over and over....
maybe you should read some of our posts?
and as for the flaws of the "so called theory of evolution" why don't you post some of the flaws as you see them and maybe we can help u understand the theory alittle better...
as for the bible, how do you explain humans and dinos living togeather?
or the fact that light from the stars around us would take more time to reach us then the earth has suposedly been here?
and how can plants exist before the sun?
i surely don't see any hole like those in evolution....
but either way i'm sure you're happy with what you think you know and understand about evolution and science so no offence and feel free to ignore me....

welcome to the board frednn great post by the way and that's my favorite site to link to for these matters great job and i hope you enjoy the forums.

Bluefinger
QUOTE(frednn @ May 6 2006, 06:17 PM) [snapback]1177378[/snapback]

The dating isn't wrong. The carbon they dated is that old. See: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html
Mystery solved. All these so called flaws with evolution end up having valid explainations. Anyhow arguing that carbon dating is wrong seems to be more of an argument against physics, geology and chemistry than evolution.


So, if we all 'evolved' from single cell organisms, then where's the proof? All we have is a line of species, but no indication that we all 'evolved' from the same material. All these species, but not a previous class behind them? I'm confused.

Beside, the theory of evolution kind of strips men of their worth. You can go on living like a worthless animal, but I won't. No matter how much worth we put in ourselves, that means nothing. And if we die and there is no resurrection, then life loses all its worth and meaning. no.gif It just doesn't add up.
manapa99
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 7 2006, 12:50 AM) [snapback]1177612[/snapback]

So, if we all 'evolved' from single cell organisms, then where's the proof? All we have is a line of species, but no indication that we all 'evolved' from the same material. All these species, but not a previous class behind them? I'm confused.

Beside, the theory of evolution kind of strips men of their worth. You can go on living like a worthless animal, but I won't. No matter how much worth we put in ourselves, that means nothing. And if we die and there is no resurrection, then life loses all its worth and meaning. no.gif It just doesn't add up.

who says life has to have meaning? or worth for that matter?
and just what do you mean there is no proof?
dna it self is proof we are linked to all other living things through dna our dna is 99% the same as a chip and by looking at dna we can see genetic links from our ancestors that connect us with every living thing
and as far as a worthless animal it's quite clear to me that no life is worthless... but i see you don't care much about the other living things in the world
thumbsup.gif
stop living to die and just freakiin live....
Avinash_Tyagi
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 7 2006, 12:50 AM) [snapback]1177612[/snapback]

Beside, the theory of evolution kind of strips men of their worth. You can go on living like a worthless animal, but I won't. No matter how much worth we put in ourselves, that means nothing. And if we die and there is no resurrection, then life loses all its worth and meaning. no.gif It just doesn't add up.


Ummm...what? How does life lose all meaning if there is no ressurection and if there is evolution? Those comments make little sense.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(manapa99 @ May 6 2006, 08:14 PM) [snapback]1177464[/snapback]

as i have already pointed out, and as frednn also pointed out that has been explained, and carbon daiting has been cross checked with multiple other dating systems and checks out over and over and over....
maybe you should read some of our posts?
and as for the flaws of the "so called theory of evolution" why don't you post some of the flaws as you see them and maybe we can help u understand the theory alittle better...
as for the bible, how do you explain humans and dinos living togeather?
or the fact that light from the stars around us would take more time to reach us then the earth has suposedly been here?
and how can plants exist before the sun?
i surely don't see any hole like those in evolution....
but either way i'm sure you're happy with what you think you know and understand about evolution and science so no offence and feel free to ignore me....

welcome to the board frednn great post by the way and that's my favorite site to link to for these matters great job and i hope you enjoy the forums.


If the carbon dating was of the grain and not the actual seal, which I find hard to believe someone could mistake earth carbon from that of a baby seal, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, then what does that say for the rest of the carbon dating of species such as homoerectus, or the dinosaurs, or even the earliest life forms? It could all be left up to chance. But then again, you did call evolution 'a theory.' How could dinosaurs and animals live together? I could deal with this one. Radiation. If you read the account of Genesis, oh say the first 3 chapters, you will find some very interesting things pointed out. Such as light as created before the sun, moon, and stars. So was day and night. So if the sun, moon, and stars wree created to give light to the earth, then where was light in the beginning? It was with God. Remember, this is the ALMIGHTY God we are talking about. Our rationalization does nothing against him. Okay, so back to the Creation. The Bodies of water were seperated, hints that there was a body of water above the skies. This created a Utopia in which climate was perfect, weather was splendid, and radiation was low. This could explain the long lives that the people had. Now, after the great flood, its my opinion that this body of water above the sky came down in the form of rain instead of mist and flooded the earth. Afterwards, the dinosaurs (most of them) could handle the radiation. Another scenario is that they made good food and were all eaten. So, how could dinosaurs existed with man? Not many of them survived the flood, but those that did had a good amount of time to repopulate. The book of Job gives an account of a dinosaur that is very similar to a brontosaurus. Wanna see?

Job 40:15 ¶Behold now behemoth, which I made with thee; he eateth grass as an ox.
16 Lo now, his strength is in his loins, and his force is in the navel of his belly.
17 He moveth his tail like a cedar: the sinews of his stones are wrapped together.
18 His bones are as strong pieces of brass; his bones are like bars of iron.
19 He is the chief of the ways of God: he that made him can make his sword to approach unto him.
20 Surely the mountains bring him forth food, where all the beasts of the field play.
21 He lieth under the shady trees, in the covert of the reed, and fens.
22 The shady trees cover him with their shadow; the willows of the brook compass him about.
23 Behold, he drinketh up a river, and hasteth not: he trusteth that he can draw up Jordan into his mouth.
24 He taketh it with his eyes: his nose pierceth through snares.


So, in lamens terms, the dinosaur was called a behemoth. It ate plants, and moved his tail from his stomach. His tail was like a huge tree. His bones are superstrong (ofcourse they had to support his body mass.) He layed down under trees and was a very slow drinker. This sounds like a dinosaur to me. So, if scientist say that dinos were extinct millions of years ago, how come there were some in jobs time? How come no one ventured to kill this beast and eat it? Probably because they did and there were much more of them. How else would he know the anatomy of the beast? So, it seems that man and dinosaur did live together. Even if people were to make it up a few thousand years ago, it would be a really really good guess. But I don't think they did.

And the last one, how can plants exist before the sun? Check this out as.

Genesis 2:1 ¶Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
4 ¶These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,
5 And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
6 But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.


The seeds were watered by a mist from God and from the waters underneath. God doesn't need a sun to make the grass grow. Its not impossible for God, and even states that when the new earth and new heaven is created, a New Jerusalem will descend from Heaven, and there will be no more need for the sun, for the Lord will give us light.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(Avinash_Tyagi @ May 7 2006, 12:14 AM) [snapback]1177628[/snapback]

Ummm...what? How does life lose all meaning if there is no ressurection and if there is evolution? Those comments make little sense.



Because a resurrection insures that your life will live forever, thus the things that you do will last and their meaning will last. Thus your life has meaning and worth. But if there is no resurrection and we are all evolved animals, then the worth we give ourselves counts for nothing, for we all die and don't get to share in the everlasting fruits of our labor. Its all meaningless. If people are content with being called animals, then does that not mean that they are animals and should be treated like any animal would treat another? I'm sorry, but eternal death makes living pointless.
RachelM
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 7 2006, 12:22 AM) [snapback]1177640[/snapback]

Because a resurrection insures that your life will live forever, thus the things that you do will last and their meaning will last. Thus your life has meaning and worth. But if there is no resurrection and we are all evolved animals, then the worth we give ourselves counts for nothing, for we all die and don't get to share in the everlasting fruits of our labor. Its all meaningless. If people are content with being called animals, then does that not mean that they are animals and should be treated like any animal would treat another? I'm sorry, but eternal death makes living pointless.


What about our children? And our children's children, and on down the line. This is the way we live forever. Our blood continues to flow through our descendents. That to me is more beautiful than any resurrection.
Bluefinger
QUOTE(RachelM @ May 7 2006, 12:27 AM) [snapback]1177644[/snapback]

What about our children? And our children's children, and on down the line. This is the way we live forever. Our blood continues to flow through our descendents. That to me is more beautiful than any resurrection.


your blood may flow, but your memories don't. Your mind doesn't. Your thoughts cease. Your children will die, and their children will die. And all the experiences that everyone has had will be frozen solid by the cold chill of death. What everyone else experiences will mean nothing to you once you are dead, because you are dead. How can someone raise a child and then let them go and see it fit. And when you have a child that bares your blood, how then could you see your child as just another animal, or a laboratory test victim of earth whose contribution only keeps life going so more people can die and make living pointless? If there is no resurrection, then we die and there is no worth to us anymore.
JMPD1
so let me ask you blue, what do you live for? what is your goal? simple to serve your god?
Do you give any thought to yourself and the life you live? Or is this just an endurance test for you, and the 'goal' is to get to heaven?
Beckys_Mom
QUOTE(Gwyny @ May 6 2006, 11:41 PM) [snapback]1177353[/snapback]

read my posts...good god BM i never said it was fact i was saying i dont believe evolution..i believe in Creation, i never said you have to...

If you read my earlier posts you would see that Carbon 14 dating is wrong they did it to a freshly killed baby seal and the test showed that it died 1,300 years ago....so whats flawed...the bible that nobody can prove true or false or Science which we can proven false and not true (knowing the fact that science is inconsistent and the bible is not)

Goodd God Gwyny are you BLIND? do you need an eye test?? Can you read?? hmm.gif

At what point did I say that you said it was...FACT...come on girl...why is it nearly (plz note I said nearly and not all) every christian now has me thinking they all need to be properly educated..hardly any of you can read anything right...I am surprised you all can read a bible...or would that be that most of you just glance at it??

NOW Gwyny sinse I cant draw you a pic..all I asked you was...What......is...it....about evolution...that....you see ...as FLAWED???<-----------thats what I said to you.....now how on earth did you get the word fact from that I dont know rolleyes.gif

From now on Gwyny i'll highlite abd underline the words I need you to understand...cuz girl I havent a notion what the fook it is that you look at when you read a post w00t.gif

The above post was not meant to be harsh, its how I see it...I just wish some people would read the post right for a change blink.gif
frednn
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 7 2006, 05:50 AM) [snapback]1177612[/snapback]

So, if we all 'evolved' from single cell organisms, then where's the proof? All we have is a line of species, but no indication that we all 'evolved' from the same material. All these species, but not a previous class behind them? I'm confused.


The fossil record shows life has changed over time, and the new species that appear are uncannily similar to existing types. Fossils that have a mix of features unique to two classes have been found in the correct time period. Certain marks and features in DNA provide more evidence that many species share a common ancestor, in the same way that the same coffee stain on two documents makes it clear they have been copied from a common source. Island species tend to be similar to local mainland species, yet are different enough to indicate they have diverged from each over time. Vestigal structures of many living species hint at their ancestors being different in form. These are all very interesting indications that have led to my acceptance of the theory of evolution.

QUOTE
Beside, the theory of evolution kind of strips men of their worth.


Surely our worth is determined by our own deeds in our own lifetimes, and isn't based at all on who our ancestors were or what they did. I don't find the idea that we are the tip of one branch on a growing tree of life to strip me of my worth.

QUOTE
You can go on living like a worthless animal, but I won't. No matter how much worth we put in ourselves, that means nothing. And if we die and there is no resurrection, then life loses all its worth and meaning. no.gif It just doesn't add up.


Whether or not there is a God or a ressurection is a theological issue and not a scientific one. The theory of evolution says nothing on the matter so belief in evolution certainly does not contradict either. The only thing evolution contradicts is a certain method of creation, not creation or religion in general. From a philosophical point of view everything about the universe screams out that creation occured gradually. Stars, planets, mountains, etc all develop gradually over long periods of time. In my opinion it would be highly inconsistant for life to not have developed gradually and to just appear suddenly.
frednn
QUOTE(Bluefinger @ May 7 2006, 06:18 AM) [snapback]1177638[/snapback]

If the carbon dating was of the grain and not the actual seal, which I find hard to believe someone could mistake earth carbon from that of a baby seal, but I'll give it the benefit of the doubt, then what does that say for the rest of the carbon dating of species such as homoerectus, or the dinosaurs, or even the earliest life forms?


They did date the seal, but the carbon in the seal was ancient. It is a known phenomenon and is why carbon dating is not used on deep ocean creatures.

Ancient fossils are not carbon dated. Carbon dating is only accurate up to 50,000 years because after that time all the carbon-14 in the material has decayed. It is the ratio of c14 to c12 which determines the age. When a creature dies the c14 starts decaying and anything much older than 50,000 years will not have any c14 left and so this measurement technique cannot be used.

There are other radiodating techniques that use isotopes with much longer halflives than c14. These are used to date older materials.

QUOTE
It could all be left up to chance. But then again, you did call evolution 'a theory.'


Atomic theory is a theory too. Theory means a whole lot more than a guess or speculation in context of science.
Gwyny
[quote name='frednn' date='May 6 2006, 05:17 PM' post='1177378']
The dating isn't wrong. The carbon they dated is that old. See: http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CD/CD011_4.html

Ok but what if they are wrong in others ways that science has not discovered yet... i mean science is always discovering things that prove what they found before wrong.... the bible never strays it never contradicts itself.
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.
Invision Power Board © 2001-2008 Invision Power Services, Inc.