That's true, everyone is partly skeptic about something.

If you want to hold to your own personal belief, that's fine with me, I don't have anything against that.

Thank you

I love my faith in the same way you love yours..thats a good thing

But I couldnt just switch on a faith to use it like that...thats so wrong..and disrespectlful to the christian faith

If I was to listen to my mother and turn to a born again christian like her (who s to say I wont become one..anything can happen) but If I do make that decission to become a born again christain...I would honor that faith ...I wouldnt use it to get at people..I would follow it and respect it and become a born again christian withall my heart...there would be no acting to piss others off..it would be the real deal with me My mom still tries god bless her cotton socks LOL

What's wrong with an idea, backed up by evidence, I might add, that we were once humble creatures that sought knowledge so we could rise up from the dirt and become a great and creative species with mastery over our planet and the ability to travel to the stars?

Also, in the Science and Technology forum, I had to equate evolution with Legos in order to get the obviousness of my point across. The words "Lego" and "Star Wars Tie Fighter" should never be uttered in a discussion about evolution. EVER!

The sad thing is, I'm not entirely sure anyone will get it.

What? I'm not saying that was wrong, I'm saying that it's sad for anyone to abandone their faith in God for science, people don't get that God is science! It's the mysteries of the universe that are the evidence that suggests that there is a God, running away like a coward with the idea that no one has to subject themselves to anyone but themselves is coping out, you don't have all that strong faith for 15 years if you dump it all in favor for a second of "reasoning", there is too much in the world to say there isn't a God, there isn't a devil, that there isn't a spiritual world outside of our own, let us stop running and face the almighty without cowardace, he isn't here to smite and kill his people, he's here to have his family grow in his likeness, to have fellowship with him, the stuff about killing and slaughtering people in the Old Testament was from a different time, it was a completely different world, and different rules applied back then, it's time for us to move on in the right developmental stage, to follow God's commandments.

It would also be stupid, since the two have nothing to do with each other.



Yeah, yeah, God is (ANY WORD HERE).

Bottom line: You apparently know nothing about evolution, so I'd like to know how you think you can have an opinion on it.

"It doesn't matter how it's done".......

Is this not what the Bible says also.....something from nothing

Genesis 1 (KJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And yet you ripped me a new backside, BW! What a flippin' hypocrite!

My turn ...



Um, I fled my faith for numerous reasons--one of them was the blatant arrogance and hypocrisy of my fellow believers.



Nice language. You're a Christian, eh? Might want to adhere to your god's commandments against using course language--hypocrite!



First, how could you possibly know anything about me/my faith? Second, I believed in evolution because the evidence was undeniable. That said, I also believed in guided evolution, that god created everything and guided it along an evolutionary path to where it is today. Third, abadoned it for "science" and "proof" ... Do you even think before your digits strike the keyboard?! How ridiculous! Bloody frightening statement!



The only thing you are accomplishing here by making such pompous statements is dredging up personal experiences that caused me to start questioning my faith to begin with. And I thank you.



Finding religion obviously hasn't helped you one iota. By your response[s] you show yourself to be extremely angry, arrogant and hypocritical.



Oh, and did I mention paranoid?



That's the difference between you and I ... I do care, as I stated above. I enjoy seeking answers, discovering how the the world and universe works. It's wonderfully exciting and enlightening.



Yes, and that's all you have to go on--imagination. Even scripture says that faith [god] is "things hoped for, but not seen". Not very reassuring.



And I would be ashamed at wasting my life on a guess.



I did mention paranoia, didn't I?



That's the same attitude taken by the Church during the Middle Ages ... And that got us where?

Sean

That is simply your opinion, not fact.



Perhaps it is you who is running? Running from the idea that there is no almighty being looking out for you...



Even if I did believe in god, I would not believe you qualified to tell me what he's here to do...



Really? Werent the ten commandments established in the Old Testament world?



Perhaps your god should set the example first...

Hehehe, I'm sorry, I knew I said I would stay out of this conversation, but it became a little too amusing for me to ignore:

[quote]It would also be stupid, since the two have nothing to do with each other.[/quote]

It's the same thing as ivytheplant said boorite, science is evidence and religion is faith, they are opposites, and (according to science) opposites attract, no?

[quote]Yeah, yeah, God is (ANY WORD HERE).[/quote]

Alright, think like that, I'm sure whatever word that can be included into that sentence won't effect me in the least.

[quote]Bottom line: You apparently know nothing about evolution, so I'd like to know how you think you can have an opinion on it.[/quote]

If I am speaking through opposite of an atheist's perspective, how they are going to explain to me, that according to evolution, that a chain of events occurs without an original source, I have also stated that "it depends on what context and perspective it's looked at" I am debating the context used by atheists, and I'm also calling out the "big bang theory"

[quote]And yet you ripped me a new backside, BW! What a flippin' hypocrite![/quote]

That makes me a hypocrite? Heh, really? Let's think here, you were stating that you made your life better by "ditching what you sole heartedly believed in for 15 years" and as that makes that your personal descision, I was telling you what I thought of it, would you rather listen to me telling you how much I embrace your opinions than for me to tell you what I really think of the situation going on? I mine as well be a drone while we're at it.

[quote]Um, I fled my faith for numerous reasons--one of them was the blatant arrogance and hypocrisy of my fellow believers.[/quote]

And that's exactly what proves my point, you were weak in your faith, and after 15 years? Pffft! That's discraceful, you shouldn't depend on what others do and what they say about others, apparently those "15 years" didn't pay off very well did they? If they did, you would have put the mistakes of others aside, and put God in first of everything, but instead you ditched it all and went straight to the textbooks and scientists, ha!

[quote]Nice language. You're a Christian, eh? Might want to adhere to your god's commandments against using course language--hypocrite![/quote]

Apparently the word agnostic is too long for atheists to understand.

[quote]First, how could you possibly know anything about me/my faith? Second, I believed in evolution because the evidence was undeniable. That said, I also believed in guided evolution, that god created everything and guided it along an evolutionary path to where it is today. Third, abadoned it for "science" and "proof" ... Do you even think before your digits strike the keyboard?! How ridiculous! Bloody frightening statement![/quote]

Oh you did now? Well that doesn't make much sense does it? You have commented on almost every single subject of Christianity and religion, and you gave your opinion that cleary Jesus was not supernatural, there is no such thing as God, angels or demons, I mean how obvious is it for me to target what your saying? Oh but wait a minute, now you put evolution under speaking terms of God's creation? Seems like you've regressed farther than "quiting religion" goes aye?

[quote]The only thing you are accomplishing here by making such pompous statements is dredging up personal experiences that caused me to start questioning my faith to begin with. And I thank you.[/quote]

It did aye? Wonderful! At least now you can look at yourself for the direction you've gone in, I thank you for ditching God to go straight to the textbooks! Touche my fine sir!

[quote]Finding religion obviously hasn't helped you one iota. By your response[s] you show yourself to be extremely angry, arrogant and hypocritical.[/quote]

Perhaps I haven't explained myself well enough and that makes me seem like a hypocrite, I'll give you that, but me being angry and arrogant? Yet another assumption because I stand for the religious and spiritual side of things, I stand for Muslims, Christians, and Jews, if I had all this anger and arrogance, I would think of one religion being superior, but as you

[quote]That's the difference between you and I ... I do care, as I stated above. I enjoy seeking answers, discovering how the the world and universe works. It's wonderfully exciting and enlightening.[/quote]

I don't care? I wouldn't be an agnostic trying to convert over to Christianity if I didn't, but atheism is just regression, I don't care what anyone says, pure denial is more like it.

[quote]Yes, and that's all you have to go on--imagination. Even scripture says that faith [god] is "things hoped for, but not seen". Not very reassuring.[/quote]

Heh, keep reading.....

[quote]And I would be ashamed at wasting my life on a guess.[/quote]

Look at it this way of all other things dismissed: "I would rather live my life believing that there is a God and then to die and find out there isn't, then to live my life not believing in God, to find out there is."

Personally, you could just say before you die that "whoever is up there, whoever you are, please except me as one of your own" if your not quite so sure as to where to go, of course, being that you have so much knowledge after 15 years being a Christian I would think you would have had the sense to know the bible holds quite allot of info if you don't take it so literal and try to understand, even when it's most gut-wrenching, hehehe, in some ways you remind me of Rosemary Campbell and her 20 years experience with spirits.

[quote]I did mention paranoia, didn't I?[/quote]

How does the comment your referring too have anything to do with paranoia?

[quote]That's the same attitude taken by the Church during the Middle Ages ... And that got us where?[/quote]

The fact your not acknowledging anything is probably more indentified, I can depend on allot of things the bible says, because to me it isn't just some regular book, and allot of things happen in this world that you can't deny that there isn't some supernatural force at work, granted things in the past have been twisted, but look at what happens in our modern day world, the miracles and the healings that have changed people's lives are overwhelming and cannot be dismissed as "psychological thinking" or "chemistry", and it works the same way the wind does, you mine as well tell me now that the wind doesn't exist, because you can't see it, therefore it isn't there, but you can feel it right? Only if you except it exists and not come up with other explanations for it.

[quote]That is simply your opinion, not fact.[/quote]

Indeed it is, if you were to continue to run away what's already being thrown in your face.

[quote]Perhaps it is you who is running? Running from the idea that there is no almighty being looking out for you...[/quote]

Ooooooh it's Stellar! Another one of these atheists who get so easily offended and pissed off because they would rather listen to a bunch of monkies in white trenchcoats and religion just burns them up so much!

Alright then, I want you to give me a explanation from where the universe came from, and don't give me the typical crap, I truly want to hear what it is that proves God doesn't exist, sure there's controversy, but this is the one thing that stays in mind: where did everything begin? Where was it's start? And where did the stuff that the stuff that made the universe come from? You can't answer this question, and as much as religion is "fanatical" it stands valid on some accounts, but what does man do? Runs off like a coward, and turns back to the monkies in trenchcoats, ha! What cowardace!

So please tell me how anything started to begin with, that's right, how does a blank void of "nothing" start at all? Come on now, I'm just a religious fanatic with his head up his ass so I'm sure that you have all the answers and you can surely explain this to me!

[quote]Even if I did believe in god, I would not believe you qualified to tell me what he's here to do...[/quote]

Heh, it says so from the source claiming there's a God! This doesn't come from me! But I guess that isn't credible, what do I know right?

[quote]Really? Werent the ten commandments established in the Old Testament world?
Perhaps your god should set the example first...[/quote]

The Ten Commandments have always been valid, Adam and Eve knew God, and so did their earliest of children, but after man increased and multiplied, they began to turn to the path of sinful acts, under the course and influences of the serpent, who influenced man in the beginning, and even after the flood, man went back to it's old ways, despite the believers who already turned away, there where those completely consumned by the serpent, and if they weren't wiped out then, they would seek out to kill the Christian nations, this is why it was to be done, the Ten Commandments are laws established so that man does not do unto his own, but as you can see, man still recesses back into sin, therefore the actions of those who are ignorant and who do not repent and resist evil shall suffer the same death as the serpent himself, makes sense to me.

Perhaps God should set the example first? Haven't you ever heard of "you shall not put your God to test?" you just mentioned the same thing that Satan said to Jesus, and even he knows that he exists.

Again, you mine as well tell me that the wind isn't there because you can't see it.

I have to go now, this arguement is really a waste of time and I need a challenge, thanks for your inputs though!

I just finished reading through your last post, Boltwave. Though I wouldn't necessarily use the word hypocrite, other people are quite entitled to believe or turn away from believing as they see fit. Simply because someone loses Faith in something they used to believe is not to say that they "wasted their time" or had weak faith.

Using the same reasoning, one could make the assumption that an Atheist who turns to Christ didn't believe strongly enough in the non-existence of God.

People's views and attitudes change over time, Boltwave. Get used to it.

Of course they do, I have had plenty of friends turn from one belief to another overnight, just as I have from an atheist to an agnostic, what am I missing?

Then stop heaping crap onto seanph for believing for 15 years and then not believing.

Well, I gotta hand it to every skeptic on this forum, there sure do know how go off the religious systematics but then it becomes an issue when they're intruded on, not meaning to be "rude" of course, it's simply what I've gained and observed, anything someone says straight out of the bible (at least in this section) is either crazy, fanatical, or "just written by man" when in some areas the same goes for the notes and the books atheists and scientists are publishing every day, but I guess when it comes to the bible, it's just inaccurate, that does not make sense.

yeah if you're talking about magnetic fields...


i don't understand the hatred you have for atheists especially concidering that discovery of natural selection was origianly made by a christian mister who only later renounced his faith becuse he couldn't deny the facts that were layed out before him and reconcile that with his faith...
but there are many who can and there are entire branches of science that use and add to this theory everyday...
if you would as so much take the time and energy to read a 5th grade science book i'm sure it would help you understand this a little better...

hmmm
so you think that an education especially in science is a bad thing yet you wilingly use a computer? how about medical services that have beifited greatly from this theory you think is fake?
do you go to a doctor when you're sick or a priest???

you can see the wind witha microscope...
and psycology is a viable science...
so is chemistry...
so is biology...
if you want to ignore facts and call somthing amiracle while others plainly understand the inner working of the event then by all means do so but who's going to look like the weirdo standing on the coner when it's al said and done???

if you're so interested in how things began then how did god begin?
who created him? if nothing can come from nothing then where did he come from?
and why should the burden of proof ever bee on the one who doesn't believe, you're the one who believe where is your proof?
the fact that you're to scared that if you're wrong you'll be punished when you die?
so you live your life attacking people who don't want to take someone elses word and feel like that by judging them you've done right by your own religion and that in the end after you've wasted your life it will all be worth it?
personally i would rather live my life to live not to die, and i'm sure many people can understand that, so why do you have such a hatred of atheists?
you keep bashing our beliefs and the best reason you can give is well what if you're wrong?
that's a fairly week argument and it seems to me like you feel you are trying to reconcile your own faith by trying to make those who don't feel the same as less then you.. well personally i'm happy withmy belifs and i hope that someday you will be also...

which version of the ten commandments? there are atleast 3 different ones....
and second you acctually take the creationstory as true when even the church has stated it's pure symbolism?
you take that over hard evidence and fact?
oh wait... you do't acctually kow abouthte facts of evolution or abiogenisis because you're computer's too sow to read all of the other posts... my bad...

What??? Well that's stupid, what about the opposite attraction for sexes? (And yes I'm aware of 'homosexuality' if your going to get all cute about it.)



Well, at least I have better puncuation than anything, so who are you to say I need education, for someone who lacks puncuation skills?



What the hell are you freaking talking about? I have never denied science to the fullest, if you read ALL of my posts, particulary in the paranormal board, you will see I've brought up the subject of medicine and psychology many times, have you been missing what I've said about "religion and science should go together" or are you just looking out for what I've said in specific threads?



And spirits have been caught on tape, but of course I guess you wouldn't believe they exist? Would you? Some error in the film development aye? Like I said, it doesn't exist until you except it does.



OH JEEZE! For the last fricken time! I have already answered this question before, in the bible it says God "was" God "is" and God "will always" be existent, time and space are no matter for him, and if this is so neither is creation, because he invented it! That's a stupid question don't you think? Kind of like someone who makes a cardboard box for a bunch of rats but can't fit inside of it himself? Do you get what I'm saying or do I have to break this down for you because it will probably be taken in wrong or way too literal than I'm trying to get across.



NO!!!!!!! Agh! Do you think I go around all day soliciting religion and then bashing people in the head for it? Not even close buddy, but I'll use whatever it takes to debate it, I don't go around soliciting it, as you and others might think, I look for answers and I look for what's been offered in opposition, which allows me to get better acquainted with my accuracy on things and at least some consideration can be offered.



I don't have a hatred for atheists, I have friends with different beliefs! Come on! I get angry when stupid crap is being flung my way, when everything is turned into a personal issue, and when God is made into a joke, what you think it's funny? If that's allowed, let's see where I get when I insult other religious figures, but wait, someone's going to stop me and tell me that's not tolerated, but it's okay for people to make jokes about God almighty?????



I have given possibilities in my testimony, but I don't feel it would be appropriate to go on about those things, because I'm sure it'll get ripped on too.



Symbolism for what? That sounds like a bunch of crock, that would mean that Satan doesn't exist and neither does God, and that's completely self-contradicting of what the Church would say to the fullest extent, unless they blended evolution with creationism as part of a whole, I would have no problem excepting that.



How would you know whether or not my computer's slow? This piece of crap has been here since 1998, it's that old, but wait what do I know about my own computer? Why do you think it takes me so long to reply to topics? It has been known to take me a whole hour to post a single thing on occasions, really that's not even debatable from your views.....

Let's stop this pointless bickering and get back on topic. If we can't do that, this thread will have to be closed. I'm going to class now, I'll check back in a couple of hours to see how things are going.

because you said you didn't read all the other posts because you had a slow computer... that was your excuse for not reading posts that would have given you a better understanding of a theory you know little about...
yes lets please stop the personal bickering and get back on topic with some intelligent discussion about a theory that is widely accepted around the world...
and yet so little seems to be understood..

I'm in agreement, and that doesn't just go for staying on topic or the theory of evolution either.

to be honest... i've gotta agree with P-A... let's get back to the topic; eh?

I stated that I held such a belief during my Christian walk--not now. Pay attention.

As for the rest of your sarcastic, hateful, rambling myopic-minded diatribe ... YAWN. Typical Christian behavior here in the Bible Belt. Nothing unusual in my terrible experience with religion. It was this same type of behavior--professing a love for Jesus ... yet behaving in a manner hardly worthy of this man's honorable lifestyle--that led me to start questioning my beliefs to begin with.

Thank you.



Agreed.

Sean

again, let's please stop this bickering, and get back to the topic... i'm not insulting anyone's views, but this topic is too good to get closed due to arguments from members...
Insulting posts aren't tolerated BTW... what say we all make up, and get back to the topic at hand?

Agreed.

Sean

Oh my god, for the love of.......nevermind, it's not even worth it with you.

Care to rephrase?



Your egoism leads you to overestimate the importance of your words.




What if the typical crap happens to be my explanation? It'd be like me asking you the same question, but asking you not to give me the religious "crap".



I did not say theres anything that proves god doesnt exist. See, unlike you, I am able to admit that my belief is just that, a belief, and I could be wrong.



Well, I can always say that it, oh... simply always existed...



I can answer that question just as well as religion can.



Whats so cowardly about it? Funny thing is, a lot of christians actually believe in evolution along with the bible... what exactly are they running away from?



Who's claiming there was ever a blank void of nothing? As I hear it, it is the religious that claim god created everything from nothing.



The source? You can not even begin to justify that source being any more credible than the Koran. Furthermore, you are venturying quite a ways away from that source...



So the ten commandments are valid still, eh? What happened to "thou shalt not kill"? As you've mentioned, there were plenty of times when god violated his own commandment. He is hardly setting a good example...

As for man going back to his "old ways", I'm tempted to believe that, considering that you're here right now showing hate and intollerance for people of different belief, and believe that these "ignorant, sinful people" deserve the same punishment as that serpent...



Indeed I have heard of that. What's your point? I still believe god should set an example. Additionally, "you shall not put your god to test" has no relevance with this subject. Setting an example is not putting anything to test. I do, however, find it convenient that believers are not supposed to test god...



You're quite a superficial person, eh? You dont realise that we can measure things without seeing them, hmm?



Quit trolling. If you dont want to argue here, why do you keep comming back?

This thread has went too sour...I have seen one guy..jump on one NB and then after being told to quit it..he jumps on another NB...hopefully its stopped now, cuz it would be a shame to see such a great thread closed all because someone is against evolution and other peoples views on it...this is the Spirituality V'S Skeptisim board skeptics are every bit entitled to give their views as well as the religious people without being under attack So I want to ask the following questions



I would be intrested to know how many religious people have actually read up on evolution and studied it themselves to be able to come to the conclusion that its hogwash?

If you have studied it and read up on it...can you give any proof to back that up? What did you read? AND I dont mean for you to cut & paste something from a web page...I want to read something in your own words

For those of you that have said its hogwash...I want you to be 100% honest..and tell me...did you just decide that it was hogwash...because you heard we came from animals and it goes against your bible...so there was no need to research it...just heard those words (or similar) and decided to make your mind up from there??


The above are FAIR questions...and deserve FAIR answers

Hehehehe, bit of an odd question to ask myself don't you think?

Did someone just say something or was that hot air being blown in my face, oh wait it's both.

That was a great post BM and i'm interested in seeing some answers from those who disagree with evolution...
hopefully we can get this back on topic because i really don't want to see this thread die like the last ones....

I am intreated to know what books have they read..who wrote them even..or is it just a simple case of..."acckk I dodnt read diddly on it I wont read anything that goes against my bible..so i'll just say it's hogwash" It would be nice to see some REAL good reasons with some back up for a change and my questions are not aimed to get at anyone..I am just being curious

Okay here's to specify one last time:

EVOLUTION IS FINE, AS LONG AS IT DOESN'T DISMISS THE DESIGN OF A CREATOR DEITY, (BY THIS I MEAN, "ATHEIST VIEW")
Hopefully this should not be too confusing.



Edited for shouting!
Irish

Evolution doesn't dismiss the possibility of design. Like the Lego thing.

so in otherwords you're not against evolution although you said earlyer it was bunk, you're really just here against atheists views?

and exactly where did you read that the theory of evolution does say there is no creator?

Hmmm it sure does sound like a stab at the athiests...from what I have read...its not a question of what he actually believe and has FULL KNOWLEDGE of...kinna like Zero only pretending to be a christian just to get at the athiests...why people are so sour is beyone me

It wouldn't would it? I was speaking through towards an atheist's perspective, that's all I was really complaining about the whole time.

then why bother to hijack a thread to attack atheists?
personally i'm an atheist and i feel im entitled to my views just as you are entitled to your's and i see no reason for you to attack me, nor for me to attack you, but i will defend my views and my self, and if for some reason you don't think i have the right to be an atheist well then that's a matter for some other forum isn't it?

No I have respect for your opinions, it's when atheists (not ALL) turn God into a joke, I don't hijack threads to be honest, as you can see I only come in here when other sections I go into are being slow or slightly inactive, therefore I have to find something to talk about while I'm here at least, I'm not here to judge anyone or their beliefs, but I don't take very kindly when someone thinks religion is a bunch of hubabhub, and then they state it in an offensive and rude manner, not too mention doing so very annoyingly.

wow sherri i was just posting my opinions on the fact i wasn't harassing you, your intitiled to your own opinion



firstly when Godwana land split up into seperate parts a huge piece which is now India collided with another piece of land (Asia) at full speed. thus creating massive earthquakes which forced the land underneath the ocean upwards! (that's how Mountains are created ) that's why there are sea shells ontop of mount Everest because it used to be under the sea

but yet you've done the same for non religion views so that means you can be we can't?
this is sprituality vs. skeptics i'm sorry if you don't like that but that's the area you came to and you're going to get views that you don't like, and many people can be easily offended and assume that someone is making fun of others, but this isa heated section and so long as i've been here all ways will be.
i didn't notice much that you've brought to this thread about evolution except for the fact that it's "bunk" and the only reason you've givne is because of atheist... personally that seems like using this thread to attack someone's beliefs, you've certainly not added to the understanding of evolution nor do i think you've bothered to understand it any better...
if someone such as my self is okay with the fact that ABIOGENISIS which btw is not evolution is how we got here, and because i question people when they assume things about a theory they know little about or just don't understand then why would you assume that you need to come to this thread to attack atheists?
why not make your own thread instead of starting fights in this one for your own personal reasons?

And why is it not fine then? You're pretty intolerant...

LOL I am not Sheri and when I wrote that it was a few days or so ago..I understand from our last PM to eachother where you are coming from....I think you have just stumbled upon that above post of mine you have just quoted a lil too late...LOL but it's ok...PS I am Geri not Sheri

I believe a request for the bickering to stop has allready been made.

I will be online for sometime, if the bickering and baiting continues I will be issuing both warnings and (for those of you with allready very high warning levels) suspensions.

WOW BM sorry my bad lol it's too early in the morning i was meant to say your name

I'd like to clear up a few things before the thread gets locked.

Evolution is a fact. The word refers to the development of different kinds of living organisms, which anyone can see for himself in the fossil record. How one explains this fact is a different matter.

The theory of evolution by natural selection explains the fact of evolution by proposing that the environment determines which traits animals are able to pass on to succeeding generations. It assumes that such traits are heritable and that in a given population there is variation in said traits. Existing animals seem suited to their respective environments because the ones with traits that fit the environent had more surviving offspring and grand-offspring than those who didn't. In other words, the environment selected those traits. That's Darwin in a nutshell.

Genesis 2-3 is a pretty good parable for human evolution. Note that the development of primitive humans-- Adam and Eve-- is such that they come to possess a rational faculty (knowledge of good and evil), self consciousness (they know they are naked), pain in childbirth, and a hard life of extracting food from the land (agriculture). These are exactly the hallmarks of creatures possessing large forebrain structures such as ours. Make of it what you will-- some nomadic shepherd people in the late Stone Age seemed to understand the crucial differences between humans and other animals, and they knew that it hadn't always been this way. In short, Genesis 2-3 is itself a theory of evolution!

Until we understand these simple things, we cannot talk intelligibly about either Darwin or the Bible.

no offence but i'm not following you on this how exactly is this a parable for evolution?
evolution doesn't lead to bigger brains and agriculture, it doesn't lead anywhere it is just something that helps things survive in a changing envornment.
and how are we any different then animals?
many animals are self concious and have emotions and feelings and they certainly feel pain in child birth and as for the nakedness whole cultures exist today where people are naked and have no problem with it, clothing is a social construct it originated as a way to keep warm and became a status symbol that has held on untill we have what we deal with today.
i'm glad you know and understand evolution but to me that bible verse in no way relects the actuality of evolution nor does the idea that evolution leads to intelligence....

That was unnecessary, Boltwave.
And Stellar - so was this.

PA why didn't you just lock the thread?

I know a little about evolution. Not bucket loads, but enough. THough I've never claimed evolution was hogwash. I've only ever claimed, like many more than you may think, that evolution may have been the vehicle by which God created the universe.

It doesn't. It's the whole "hasn't science disproved religion" argument that many non-CHristians use.

evolution is not a theory, it's a fact - Carl Sagan... enough said

We're trying a new tactic, its called 'remove the source of irritation', would you like to see how it works?

Well I don't know, I've left this conversation for a while but some people must find it in their hearts the need to provoke the situation.

I have said all I have needed to say, I don't really have a need for this thread, so with that said, I will now be leaving.

And you know, just because your a mod doesn't mean you have to be rude about it.

Not survive, necessarily-- reproduce! Natural selection doesn't "care" whether or not we survive as long as we leave behind grandchildren.

I said Genesis 2-3 was a parable for human evolution. In humans, the last several million years of evolution have mainly been a tale of enlarging forebrain structures, which give rise to self-consciousness, judgement, and sophisticated social relationships and practices that lead directly to agriculture.



No. Few animals are self-conscious, namely our closest relatives, the great apes. I would say they are the other great apes besides us, so closely are we related. In any case, chimps, orangs, gorillas, and bonobos were, I think, unknown to the people who invented the Genesis myth. They were telling a story embodying their understanding of what it means to be human.

Adam and Eve's knowledge of their nakedness and their shame in it are symbolic of self-consciousness, a faculty they had not possessed before. It is not necessary for all humans everywhere to be ashamed of nakedness in order to make the point that at some juncture, early humans suddenly experienced such a feeling for the first time.

Other animals, in fact, do not experience pain in childbirth as humans do. The reason is directly related to the evolution of large forebrain structures: Human babies have really big heads! This causes problems for human females that the females of other species simply do not experience. Compare a human female's pelvic structure with that of a male. Now do the same for males and females of our closest relatives, the apes. Or compare footage of animals giving birth to footage of humans giving birth. You'll see what those Jews meant by "pain in childbirth" pretty quickly.

Another sense in which human females are unique is that they are sexually receptive throughout all phases of estrus. This is true of no other animal. So God says to Eve, "your desire will be for your husband." Interesting.

Isn't it possible that Stone Age shepherds were such keen observers of nature that they recognized some crucial differences between humans and other animals, and they made their own story of how these differences developed, i.e., their own theory of evolution? Granted, it's hardly what we'd call a scientific theory-- but it certainly isn't incompatible with Darwinism. Quite the contrary.