- If they split 2 million years ago? then explain the hybrid bear. Who knows how often they get in contact out there in the wild????
- Lions Live on the East, Tigers are all over India.
- Not all male lions are able to get a pride for they have to fight for it and that is not a sure win and there is not enough pride for all the male lions.
- Some males lions are pushed out of their pride even when they are not old yet, Sometimes they get outumbered or simply get beaten and run away. Not all encounters are fatal or result into serious injury.
- Explain the Liger and hybrid bear, some mounting happened alright.

to robbie,
i except your words as that their arent any wild ligers, BUT

you exclude the remote possiblity that a tiger has ever wondered into the west of india, and the remote possibillity that the lion and tiger didnt fight. ( 2 very slim chances, i admit)
for example: the female got driven out of her natural habitat by whatever reason.( fire floods and what more you van think of) and meets a solo lion. first they growl and show aggression. but being in heat, and being alone for a long time without a mate, and the lion being horney, their should be a slim slim slim chance they would mate and have offspring.
Now, imo its highly unlikely, but not totally impossible. We are left with that freak accident that may occure once in a lifetime or whatever time period.

no offence was meant by this, just some option.

a 2 million year split is noutnh at all in terms of species my firend which is why some want it to be a sub species of bron bear becuase that about the time it takes for it to evolve difrent catoristics to be considerd a sub species. wild hybrids of sub species which i have stated many times doens not count towards hybrids of diffrnet species. i understand that in fact tigers have been known to go in the gir forest in the past but. the problem is they arent suited to live there its not the envoirment they are used to and alienation of seprate competing species remember they both hunt simialr animals so in tern they would be viewd as enimies. jsut be cause it happens in captivity with human help doesnt mean it will happen in the wild without it. these animals need to be given the right criteria i.e. there cant be a male of the species any where around i.e. can see hear of smell him because they will greatly interfear with it so in tern this would be a preoblem in the iwld where the sent sight and soind of the male would be apparent. only males in there prime get the pride. not to mention people have never crossed an asiatic lion to a tiger so its not even know if its possible it could be a mute issue they coudl be too diffrent to even allow this to happen. the bear thing is completly diffrent they imo should be considered the same species they split only 2 million years ago and dental records show that there jaws only started to change about 10 thousand years ago. that is a very very very short time evolution wise. and this isnt the first time these bears have been known to cross in fact in naturalistic zoos where a few polar bears have bene kept with brown bears they have breed to the suprise of zookeepers at first. if u put a few tigers and a few lions together in a natuaralistic zoo enviorment with no human interference u wont have any babies andu wil lhave ver beaten up big cats if not some dead ones too. bears or Ursa are closly related to the Canus and it is only logiacl that hybridaation between those of this group are easier thne those of big cats which it is. blakc bears breed with brown bears too. brown bears evolved from black bears people. in a very short time these bears split. unliek the many millions of years tigers and lions split 2 million is not a long time at all. i feel that shortly polar bears will be reclassified as a type of brown bear remember polar bears arent white at all. in fact the only part of there coat that has color is the BLACK under coat. the white color comes form the bears hollow hair that reflects light causeing the white color.

Everything you stated was assumed and a thought UNTIL the existence of the Liger and now the Hybrid Bear. Don't you get it?????

- If they have a common prey, it's more of a reason they will end up in the same hunting ground, right?
- Liger happened with no assistance from humans, keepers was as surprised as anyone when they learned about it. And you know very well neither the Hybrid bear had assistance from humans.
- You FEEL Polar Bears wil be reclassified? How about thinking instead?l

u are realy ignorant u know that what i meat by similar prey is that they hunt paralle prey as in a gazel verus deer kinda thing. ligers are not a suprise people were fasinated with cross breeds and an attempt by zoos was to attract people with cross breeds so they bred thme no ligers have been captured or seen or heard of or even bleived ot have exhisted in the wild be cuase its not logical for them to have. hybrid bears on the other hand have beeen seen and killed in the wild before this one its not a new thing. do some research u just state the same stuff over and over.

I don't what to tell you I looked at maps showed the both spieces previous ranges and it does look like a clear over lap links are included below to the maps.
http://www.lairweb.org.nz/tiger/bengal2.html
http://www.asiatic-lion.org/distrib.html

You argued that inter species mating does not happen in the wild, then the Hybrid Bear made you look like AGAIN you don't know what you are talking about.
And here you go again making scenarios and theories, you are getting in deeper and really making yourself look like your gasping for air.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congolese_Spotted_Lion

I NEVER SAID THAT HYBRIDAZATION DOESNT HAPPEN WITH CLOSELY RELATED ANIMALS SPECIES LIKE THE WOLF AND COYOTE. OR WITH ANIAMSL LIEK THE ORANGUTAN WHOS SUB SPECIES ARE KNOWN TO BREED IN THE WILD. BUT LIONS AND LEOPARDS/TIGERS ARE NOT GOING TO INTER BREEDI NTHE WILD BECAUSE THEY ARE TO DIFFRENT OF SPECIES. THEY SPLIT LONG BEFORE BEARS DID AND I GAVE U PROOF THAT SOME SCIENTIST BELIVE THAT POLAR BEARS ARE A SUB SPECIES OF BROWN BEAR I GAVE U PROOF OF THAT.

ITS CLEAR U DONT KNOW WHAT UR TALKING OAUBT IMO BECAUSE U BRING UP AN ARTICLE THAT EVNE STATESI NIT THE THEY KNEW OF BEAR HYBRIDS BEFORE. NO ONE WITH ANY KNOWLEDGE OF GENETICTS OR ANIMAL PHYSICOLOGY WILL SAY THAT A LEOPARD ND LION OR TIGER AND LION OR LEOPARD AND LION WIL BREED IN THE WILD ITS NONSENCE.


and aobut the ranges overlaping there ranges over lapped but it dosnt mean they live in the same areas and that was a long time ago that these ranges over laped no longer do they do it tigers do not live in the gir forest where the asiatic lion lives today because it is not what the tiger is adapted to. and when the ranges idd over lap it wasnt they lived in the same area it would bel ik in the scrub areas u would find lions in denst forests tiger they wouldnt be living side by side in the same forest.

- All speculations, nature is very unpredictable.
- The fact of the matter is there is a living proof of such animal and the possibility is always there.

what ever u dont want to listen to facts so im done a wall would understand this by now but apparently the wall is smarter then u so im gonan go tell the wall this stuff i bet u it will get it before u do. im done with this topic

what ever u dont want to listen to facts so im done a wall would understand this by now but apparently the wall is smarter then u so im gonan go tell the wall this stuff i bet u it will get it before u do. im done with this topic

Had I know that you talk to WALLS all the time I would have understand you better. My apology then.

All these hybrids with the exception of the Bear hybrids were bred in ZOOs!

Historically still, the ranges didn't overlap.

That is the point, the Bear Hybrid proved it can happen in the wild. It is rare alright, but it does happen as we now know. Animals do sometimes wonder in territories that is not their normal habitat, ranges are not a SET perimeters for animals. They would go beyond any range for food.

last time im posting on this thread just so everyone knows.


polar bears share the enviorment with grizzlys during spring there breeding season over laps and if liek many zoologists think is going to happen with polar bears being classified as a sub species of brown bear. then it isnt a hybrid at all and thus u lose

Tell that to the Canadians for they call it a Hybrid. Good last time your posting, just imagine what all the Canadians thinks of you now???

haha trust me its not as bad as how i look at canada. yea i kinda hate it

Has this hybridisation ever occoured before in the wild, before this one occourence, that we know of, amongst any species, and produced fertile offspring, or is the Bear case (if it does indeed turn out to be a case considering the brown bear sub-species argument) a one off?

According to the article, it is the first documented natural hybridization and thus answering the speculation and debate if it is possible.

It sure cleared up wether it is possible or not, although, I would think the sub-species argument, if proven, would nullify the hybrid status? Perhaps we need the verdict on that to settle this one?

As this appears to be the only case, could one assume this is a 'freak of nature' and a 'one of' untill the phenomenon is witnessed again in the wild?

mmm, no repsonce to my post at page 11....to bad

Actually guys I did a little more research you would also get the same results with a black bear could also produce full fertile off spring with either the polar bear or the grizzly because all 3 speices have the same number of chromosones and that is what was causes all the male hybrids to be sterile.

I for one is not in a position to question the Canadian Biologist if it is actually a Hybrid.
This is really a very rare thing and no one assumes that now more will be found.
The excitement really is that now we know it can happen.

yea well as an american zoologist im in a position to question a canadian biologist and im in a position to say i think polar bears are nouthing but a sub species of brown bear i felt this way befoe this article was even out. considering that polar bears have the same jaw as a grizzly bear but only has lost the molars of the grizzly because it doenst need ot and this only happend about 10 thousand years ago and they only split 2 million years ago it should be classified as a sub species it will still have the same protection as it does now if not more. its a subspecies and im not the only scientist who thinks this way.


(yea this eseriously is my last post on the subject cause im tired of this one already)

Wow! I quit reading this thread about page four, when I saw that it was just a big argument over wild ligers. Frogfish, if it turns out there are wild ligers, that means you're wrong and you have to admit it. Creeper, the chance of something like that happening is very, very, very, very, remote. So if you really think you have a friend who's seen one, it's probably that they were just lying to you or they misidentified something. It happens to the best of us.

This post is probably a page too late, at least.

Your postings suggest that you are more of a Cryptozoologist than a Zoologist.
Note: Hanging out in the Zoo does not make you a Zoologist.

definalty not a cryptozoologist espicaly since i consider all crypts to be fake. i.e. yetit bigfoot nessie all those gay things and yea hanging out in a zoo doesnt make u a zoologist but going to school for it does liek it did.

Note:people dont like sons of u know whats liek u who are rude irnorant and foolishl iek u i saw u stop being an @$$ get a life other then the fake one u have with your compter and maby get a girl friend or boy firend or what ever it is ur into because i can pretty much tell u dont have one.

Use the spell check and some capital letters when you post please.

I can't believe how big this thread became. Interesting stuff about a hybrid bear though.

This is one of the most intersting debate that's been posted. One side was actually in good shape about natural hybridization, "NO PROOF" of such animal and I actually agree. And then a sudden turn of event which is now in the Home page of this site. A hybrid in the wild shot!
A once in a life time event in debates!
HAHAH!!!

But that still doesn't mean a tiger would mate with a lion( their ranges don't even cross!) or a leopard and a lion..They are natural enemies, and clash over food daily. I have seen lionesses climb up trees to actually steal the kill of a leopard.

And if for some very very odd rare incident one get shot tomorrow of a hybrid leopard/lion? You guys would say but doesn't mean an Ant would mate with a Whale, RIGHT? And so on and so fort..............
FACT: Natural Hybridization can happen. END OF DEBATE.

Then i'll concede defeat.


But the question is between what species? Natural ligers cannot happen, as their ranges don't even cross. Leopards and Lions would also rather kill each other.

yo im still just mad u told me in not a zoolgist

You have not convinced many here in the posting, hope you are not mad at me only.

No reason to stray of topic...

its funny ur like the only one who doesnt agree with waht i say. anyway. i dont consider the polar bear grizzly bear a hybrid because as i showed u early with a link and quote many scientist consider thte polar bear to be a sub species of brown bear and i said how sub species crosses dont count. a leopard lion cross and a lion tiger cross are not going to happen in the wild. the conditions needed are not going to be met for it to happen. no two species will interbreed in the wild without the influence of humans. i.e. coyote/wolf crosses who are still closer to the same species then lions leopards or tigers. coyote and wolves crossed due to human interference. only the fittest members of a species breed. those who are not fit dont breed. and animals arent sluts they only want fit males. and a fit male will go after a female of his species. and females who arent fit usualy loose the babies or wont og into there cycle.

I have not heard or read any article or news release that contradicted the Canadian claim that it is a hybrid, except from you.

ok forget the article for a second. ok in the sicentific scomunity there is a push form some to have polar bears classified as a sub species of brown bear. ok simple enough. now grizzly bears are also a sub species of brown bear. ok simple enough. now if polar bears get reclassified as a brown bear subspecies as my self and other biologist and zoologists want. then it means that this bear is a cross between two subspecies of the same species. jsut like orangutangs do in the wild. and as i said earlier no one has ever said subspecies of the same species wont breed if they come in contact in thew wild. espicaly mammal species. i not saying this bear isnt a hybrid but i tihnk it is a hybrid of sub species not species.

OK, now we are getting somewhere. Right now it is accepted as a hybrid, but there are those like you who thinks otherewise, correct?

i know i said this stuff beofe im kinda supriesed u finaly picked up on it lol. many scientist consider the polar bear a sub species of brown bear NOT its own speices. so a polar bear breeding with a grizzly bear a sub species of polar bear is not the same as a lion and tiger breeding in the wild because a polar bear and grizzly bear are sub species of the same animals not speprate animals.

i gave u a link that showed this about some belinvg it to be a subspecies.

we know sub species in thw ild will inter breed. orangutangs do it wolves would, parrots do it.

Forget the kind of species for the NEWS is Natural Hybridization do happen.
Not this or that species!!!

natural hybrids of subspecis are noutnh new. a lion tiger and leopard arent the same species. get the diffrence yet?

between subspecies, not seperate species

But it happens in the Zoo, we are half way there.

No, as they are 'forced' to breed in zoos...Human intervention. Zoo animals are much more tame and lack many natural instincts that they would have in the wild, as recognizing prey and enemies.

this is true. artifical insemenation, and sedatives often play a major role in these "breeding" in zoos.