Couldn't think if this topic is in the right place or not, if it isn't, sorry...
Where are we headed in the means of Fuel? Bush made a National/Global announcement the other day that they would like to expand Ethanol through out the US to take place of Gasoline which prices today are rediculously high! Oil is high priced as well, just because we have invaded countries to take over their oil fields doesn't mean the price of oil will go down. On the news not too long ago they had a segment about Hydrogen and how close we are to using Hydrogen as the next alternative feul source. Just because we find the next feul source does not mean prices will lower. A guy who is a welathy gentlemen, has a car already as a prototype using Hydrogen as feuel. It cost him like over a million dollars to purchase the car!!!
Why do I say that? This country is so hocked up in debt since the war on terror started that we are looking to cut back on everything, and everywhere. I was just told by someone that to cut down on the use of cars and traffic in my area which is NY that anyone who lives outside of NYC and visits NYC that we are going to start being charged a tax! Just to enter the city! WTF?? Your taxed only if you have less than 4 passengers. They think this could be a method to cut down on the traffic and raise more money for the government.
I can foresee a National US Riot in the near future if they don't find better methods for traveling and using alternative feul sources. Instead of putting our US tax dollars in stupid places, I rather see our money go towards our scientists to help make the US a better place and safer environment. Gasoline is going to be near $5.00 a gallon!!!! That's like $50 to fill a tank in a normal car. The average person in my area, not that we are poor out here, but the average citizen will not be able to afford $50 a week to save for Gasoline.
If the prices keep going higher and higher, I can see a protest happening. A major one!
That's just my opinion, but based on the facts here, what the hell is going to happen for feul?
Matt `
Full Version: Ethanol next fuel source? Or Hydrogen?
I still believe that the fuel for the future is hydrogen.. it's as simple as that
QUOTE(Spunned @ May 6 2006, 07:54 PM) [snapback]1177146[/snapback]
I still believe that the fuel for the future is hydrogen.. it's as simple as that
If only it was as simple as that .
Hydrogen can be difficult stuff to handle. As it is such a small molecule it has a nasty habit of leaking. It is highly flammable. Also, unlike most other gases, it tends to heat up when released from a pressurised container rather than cool down. This means that if a large leak develops hydrogen can be self-igniting.
The plus side of course is that hydrogen, when burnt in an internal combustion engine or used in a fuel cell to directly produce electricity, produces water as a by product. Hence it is often assumed that the hydrogen powered vehicles are pollution free. What people forget to ask is, "how is the hydrogen obtained." Hydrogen can not be obtained directly from the atmosphere. The most common way of producing it is through the electolysis of water.
Here comes the problem, where do you get the power from to do the electrolysis. If you are getting the power from conventional fuelled power stations then you are using a polluting fuel to obtain a non-polluting fuel. As you will always need to provide more power to the electrolyis process than you will gain from the use of hydrogen the hydrogen will still be a net polluter. Only if you use alternative power sources such as solar or wind power to obtain the hydrogen will it truly be pollution free.
QUOTE(Waspie_Dwarf @ May 7 2006, 02:30 AM) [snapback]1177425[/snapback]
If only it was as simple as that .
Hydrogen can be difficult stuff to handle. As it is such a small molecule it has a nasty habit of leaking. It is highly flammable. Also, unlike most other gases, it tends to heat up when released from a pressurised container rather than cool down. This means that if a large leak develops hydrogen can be self-igniting.
The plus side of course is that hydrogen, when burnt in an internal combustion engine or used in a fuel cell to directly produce electricity, produces water as a by product. Hence it is often assumed that the hydrogen powered vehicles are pollution free. What people forget to ask is, "how is the hydrogen obtained." Hydrogen can not be obtained directly from the atmosphere. The most common way of producing it is through the electolysis of water.
Here comes the problem, where do you get the power from to do the electrolysis. If you are getting the power from conventional fuelled power stations then you are using a polluting fuel to obtain a non-polluting fuel. As you will always need to provide more power to the electrolyis process than you will gain from the use of hydrogen the hydrogen will still be a net polluter. Only if you use alternative power sources such as solar or wind power to obtain the hydrogen will it truly be pollution free.
okay, maybe I didn't express myself enough
I don't mean that hydrogen is the answer ALONE, however, it's a start and it's the only alternative fuel to be developed this far... therefore it's highly unlikely that we will "invent" or discover something alternative to hydrogen and actually make it work on a global scale...
but I agree with you 100 procent, it's tricky to handle, and just image a carcrash... or somebody colliding with a bigrig..
I want a Mr. Fusion darn it!!!
Hydrogen: Back in the 1980s, a fellow in Colorado did experiment with hydrogen as a motor fuel. His breakdown was using solar cells for electrical power. The engine was a slightly modified IC engine, and he used pressure tanks filled with sodium hydroxide, if I remember correctly. The hydroxide was used because it has an affinity for hydrogen, and will release it only under coercion, so the tanks had to be heated to work. On the other hand, all his testing showed it would not explode, since the release was slow.
As to alcohol, as a vuel it is viable, except that we haven't the capacity to produce enough to power everything that needs to be powered.
So, why not a combination of devices? Commuter cars can easily be electric, with batteries charged by solar cell, already accomplished by numerous people. Cross country trucking can be powered by biofuel, also already accomplished. Longer road trips by auto can be multi-fuel, also already accomplished.
We don't need oil, eventually: just until conversion can be done.
As to alcohol, as a vuel it is viable, except that we haven't the capacity to produce enough to power everything that needs to be powered.
So, why not a combination of devices? Commuter cars can easily be electric, with batteries charged by solar cell, already accomplished by numerous people. Cross country trucking can be powered by biofuel, also already accomplished. Longer road trips by auto can be multi-fuel, also already accomplished.
We don't need oil, eventually: just until conversion can be done.
Cash and carry price at the refinery loading dock for 5-8-06
Ethanol- $2.45
Biodiesel- $1.58
Associated Press [Posted on Sat, Apr. 01, 2006]
SHADELAND, Ind. - Growing demand for ethanol has boosted prices for the corn-based fuel additive, worrying ethanol supporters just as they're making inroads getting motorists interested in the alternative fuel.
Greg Boesch, who owns Fred's Mini Mart in Shadeland, said that when he began selling a fuel that contains a high percentage of ethanol, it was between 30 cents and 40 cents a gallon cheaper than gasoline.
Now, he's only able to keep the price of both products at $2.57 a gallon by losing money on sales of E85, a blend composed of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
"I had been telling my customers that it was going to be cheaper. Now, all of a sudden, I'm having to back down," Boesch told the Journal and Courier of Lafayette for a story Saturday.
Boesch's station a few miles southwest of Lafayette is one of 23 gas stations in Indiana that sell the fuel. State officials hopes to raise that number to 40 by the end of the year, and federal officials want to keep them supplied.
But last week, representatives of the energy industry told the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee that an unprecedented high demand for ethanol will likely drive the price of gasoline up this summer.
Guy Caruso, who heads the U.S. Energy Department's statistical division, estimates that 130,000 barrels per day of extra ethanol will be needed beginning May 5 - an amount equal to almost 50 percent of current output.
Wholesale prices for ethanol have surged to roughly $2.75 a gallon, or about 50 cents per gallon higher than usual. Meanwhile, the average retail price of gasoline in the United States is $2.50 a gallon - the highest level since October.
Some analysts say gasoline prices may reach $3 a gallon by summer.
The new demand for ethanol stems largely from the decision of many states to stop allowing methyl tertiary butyl ether as an additive in gasoline. MTBE, which can contaminate ground water, composes about 10 percent of every gallon of gasoline with which it is blended.
Community and government leaders across the nation hope to eventually replace the additive with ethanol, a grain alcohol many consider a renewable fuel.
Nationwide, 33 ethanol plants are being built and six of them are in Indiana.
Belinda Puetz, director of marketing for the Indiana Corn Marketing Council, said she doesn't doubt that once more ethanol is produced, the price of the additive will fall.
Ethanol- $2.45
Biodiesel- $1.58
Associated Press [Posted on Sat, Apr. 01, 2006]
SHADELAND, Ind. - Growing demand for ethanol has boosted prices for the corn-based fuel additive, worrying ethanol supporters just as they're making inroads getting motorists interested in the alternative fuel.
Greg Boesch, who owns Fred's Mini Mart in Shadeland, said that when he began selling a fuel that contains a high percentage of ethanol, it was between 30 cents and 40 cents a gallon cheaper than gasoline.
Now, he's only able to keep the price of both products at $2.57 a gallon by losing money on sales of E85, a blend composed of 85 percent ethanol and 15 percent gasoline.
"I had been telling my customers that it was going to be cheaper. Now, all of a sudden, I'm having to back down," Boesch told the Journal and Courier of Lafayette for a story Saturday.
Boesch's station a few miles southwest of Lafayette is one of 23 gas stations in Indiana that sell the fuel. State officials hopes to raise that number to 40 by the end of the year, and federal officials want to keep them supplied.
But last week, representatives of the energy industry told the U.S. Senate Environment and Public Works Committee that an unprecedented high demand for ethanol will likely drive the price of gasoline up this summer.
Guy Caruso, who heads the U.S. Energy Department's statistical division, estimates that 130,000 barrels per day of extra ethanol will be needed beginning May 5 - an amount equal to almost 50 percent of current output.
Wholesale prices for ethanol have surged to roughly $2.75 a gallon, or about 50 cents per gallon higher than usual. Meanwhile, the average retail price of gasoline in the United States is $2.50 a gallon - the highest level since October.
Some analysts say gasoline prices may reach $3 a gallon by summer.
The new demand for ethanol stems largely from the decision of many states to stop allowing methyl tertiary butyl ether as an additive in gasoline. MTBE, which can contaminate ground water, composes about 10 percent of every gallon of gasoline with which it is blended.
Community and government leaders across the nation hope to eventually replace the additive with ethanol, a grain alcohol many consider a renewable fuel.
Nationwide, 33 ethanol plants are being built and six of them are in Indiana.
Belinda Puetz, director of marketing for the Indiana Corn Marketing Council, said she doesn't doubt that once more ethanol is produced, the price of the additive will fall.
HHO http://www.hytechapps.com/ I want my water car.
Rabid, I agree with everything you have said about hydrogen fueled vehicles, but there are still problems.
Firstly the sodium hydroxide pressure tanks are very heavy which obviously adversely affects performance.
Scondly whilst there is a hugely reduced chance of the car exploding in an accident there is still the problem of re-fuelling.
Firstly the sodium hydroxide pressure tanks are very heavy which obviously adversely affects performance.
Scondly whilst there is a hugely reduced chance of the car exploding in an accident there is still the problem of re-fuelling.
QUOTE(Celumnaz @ May 9 2006, 02:36 PM) [snapback]1181121[/snapback]
I used hydrogen generators like the one advertised in your link every day at work for 14 years. The claim that it protects the environment is very misleading. It won't work until you plug it into the mains, and how is the mains electricity generated? In most cases by burning fossil fuel.
Waspie, I agree with this. I added that tidbit since I had read of the experiments back when. Personally, I think hydrogen is a lost cause.
I'm of the opinion that electric is the best way to go. First, commuters would aid much in environmental concerns, and if solar cells were the primary charging device, pollution is cut to a minimum. On hybrid cars, if the engine used is not the primary mechanical source, a very efficient and non-polluting engine such as the Stirling can be used. While this increases the battery capacity, there are batteries available that have high energy density and very long life, along with much lighter weight.
And electric offers numerous types of motors, some of which can be made to appear as trapped steam (vs turbine), with max torque at low rpm, and through drive programming can be made to look more like gas engines at higher speeds. All of which provide the best drive combination for automotive use.
But we seem to be hung up on IC, and noting that I am prejudiced towards electric, that hang up seems a bad thing to me.
I'm of the opinion that electric is the best way to go. First, commuters would aid much in environmental concerns, and if solar cells were the primary charging device, pollution is cut to a minimum. On hybrid cars, if the engine used is not the primary mechanical source, a very efficient and non-polluting engine such as the Stirling can be used. While this increases the battery capacity, there are batteries available that have high energy density and very long life, along with much lighter weight.
And electric offers numerous types of motors, some of which can be made to appear as trapped steam (vs turbine), with max torque at low rpm, and through drive programming can be made to look more like gas engines at higher speeds. All of which provide the best drive combination for automotive use.
But we seem to be hung up on IC, and noting that I am prejudiced towards electric, that hang up seems a bad thing to me.
The problem with electric vehicles at the moment is the limited range offered by modern batteries and also the weight. This is likely to be over come to some extent in the fiture.
Hydrogen will have it's place as a fuel, even if it isn't readily used in vehicles. The problem with solar power is that you have the greatest demand for the power when you have the lowest supply. A system which uses solar power to produce hydrogen in the summer to burn in power stations in the winter would overcome this quote nicely.
Hydrogen will have it's place as a fuel, even if it isn't readily used in vehicles. The problem with solar power is that you have the greatest demand for the power when you have the lowest supply. A system which uses solar power to produce hydrogen in the summer to burn in power stations in the winter would overcome this quote nicely.
QUOTE(Waspie_Dwarf @ May 9 2006, 07:20 AM) [snapback]1181185[/snapback]
The problem with electric vehicles at the moment is the limited range offered by modern batteries and also the weight. This is likely to be over come to some extent in the fiture.
Hydrogen will have it's place as a fuel, even if it isn't readily used in vehicles. The problem with solar power is that you have the greatest demand for the power when you have the lowest supply. A system which uses solar power to produce hydrogen in the summer to burn in power stations in the winter would overcome this quote nicely.
Limited range is correct with electric only. Using electric as primary, vs gas-electric, and a small fuelled plant such as Stirling offers both extended range, relatively high freeway speeds, efficiency (an engine running at one speed only can be optimized quite nicely), and use of multiple fuels. In CA in the 70s there were hybrids of this type that were easily capable of 55-65 mph and 150 mpg.
useful?
r-click and save 2 movies
http://www.go-t-rex.com/video/nbc5.wmv
http://www.cree.ch/images/movies/Sam02.mpa
video site
http://www.carver-europe.com/00movies.php
pdf
http://www.clever-project.net/gb/poster_dt_1.pdf
r-click and save 2 movies
http://www.go-t-rex.com/video/nbc5.wmv
http://www.cree.ch/images/movies/Sam02.mpa
video site
http://www.carver-europe.com/00movies.php
http://www.clever-project.net/gb/poster_dt_1.pdf
Here's something I did the other night when I couldnt sleep:
Interestingly enough, we [America] are the world's #3 oil producer, at 8.69 barrels per day - Iran produces less than half of this.. However, we also are the top consumer at 20.5 barrels a day. The next highest consumer of oil is China, at 6.5 barrels a day. So, even though 1 out of every 5 people live in china, we use over 3 times as much oil as them per day... Iraq only produces 2.03 million barrels per day, lagging at the number 14 producer. However, Canada has the second largest oil reserves at 178 billion barrels, Iran 3rd at 125b, and Iraq at a very close 4th at 115b.
The countries with the top 10 reserves have a total of 1,092,000,000,000 barrels of oil. At the current rate of consumption (75.988m daily, 27,735,620,000 anually ), it will take a little over 14370 days or 39 years to run out of oil as we know it (Yes it is true that other countries have oil, but the price would be so high at that point because there would be so little supply..)
. However, with the near 10% a year rise in GDP in China and India, this means more factories and cars will be coming into their hands every day, which means more consumption.
China is at about 6.5m barrels a day currently, let’s say in 10 years, it goes up to 10m a day, still only half ours. 3.5
India, too, being on the rise, currently is only consuming 2.3 barrels a day – lets say in the same ten years, their consumption goes up to 7.5m barrels a day – so in total, an 8.7m barrel a day increace, bringing the world consumption daily to 84.688m.
After the initial 3650 days, 10 years, our oil is at 814,643,800,000; under a trillion. At the increased rate of consumption, it would take 9,619 days or 26.4 years, giving us a grand total of 36.4 years, making me for one only 56 and a half.
Ethanol:
183 bushels per acre (corn) bushel = 58 lbs – corn only
800 corn per ear, 1 ear per plant
2.7 gallons per bushel.
Less energy used to make than gives off.
20,500,000barrels a day for the USA (861,000,000)gallons
7,482,500,000barrels per year (314,265,000,000)gallons
43560 feet per acre
27,878,400 feet per square mile
640 acres per mile
Recap:
75,988,000 barrels of oil daily
27,735,620,000 anually
42 gallons per barrel.
So, to satisfy the world oil, there would need to be (gal/2.7)
318,888,888 acres daily
116,394,444,444 annually
498263 miles daily
181,866,319 miles annually
196,935,000 miles on earth
59,080,500 land miles
So as you can see, it definatly won't be ethanol. We would need a little over 3x the land mass on earth completely covered in corn feilds. This doesn't even take into account the amount of fuel needed to create the ethanol.
QUOTE
Interestingly enough, we [America] are the world's #3 oil producer, at 8.69 barrels per day - Iran produces less than half of this.. However, we also are the top consumer at 20.5 barrels a day. The next highest consumer of oil is China, at 6.5 barrels a day. So, even though 1 out of every 5 people live in china, we use over 3 times as much oil as them per day... Iraq only produces 2.03 million barrels per day, lagging at the number 14 producer. However, Canada has the second largest oil reserves at 178 billion barrels, Iran 3rd at 125b, and Iraq at a very close 4th at 115b.
The countries with the top 10 reserves have a total of 1,092,000,000,000 barrels of oil. At the current rate of consumption (75.988m daily, 27,735,620,000 anually ), it will take a little over 14370 days or 39 years to run out of oil as we know it (Yes it is true that other countries have oil, but the price would be so high at that point because there would be so little supply..)
. However, with the near 10% a year rise in GDP in China and India, this means more factories and cars will be coming into their hands every day, which means more consumption.
China is at about 6.5m barrels a day currently, let’s say in 10 years, it goes up to 10m a day, still only half ours. 3.5
India, too, being on the rise, currently is only consuming 2.3 barrels a day – lets say in the same ten years, their consumption goes up to 7.5m barrels a day – so in total, an 8.7m barrel a day increace, bringing the world consumption daily to 84.688m.
After the initial 3650 days, 10 years, our oil is at 814,643,800,000; under a trillion. At the increased rate of consumption, it would take 9,619 days or 26.4 years, giving us a grand total of 36.4 years, making me for one only 56 and a half.
Ethanol:
183 bushels per acre (corn) bushel = 58 lbs – corn only
800 corn per ear, 1 ear per plant
2.7 gallons per bushel.
Less energy used to make than gives off.
20,500,000barrels a day for the USA (861,000,000)gallons
7,482,500,000barrels per year (314,265,000,000)gallons
43560 feet per acre
27,878,400 feet per square mile
640 acres per mile
Recap:
75,988,000 barrels of oil daily
27,735,620,000 anually
42 gallons per barrel.
So, to satisfy the world oil, there would need to be (gal/2.7)
318,888,888 acres daily
116,394,444,444 annually
498263 miles daily
181,866,319 miles annually
196,935,000 miles on earth
59,080,500 land miles
So as you can see, it definatly won't be ethanol. We would need a little over 3x the land mass on earth completely covered in corn feilds. This doesn't even take into account the amount of fuel needed to create the ethanol.
..and to add to the insult, oil is 1:30 enery spend : energy gain ratio.
u dig with 1 energy unit , u gain 30 energy unit back (oil)
ethanol..well... I think it's less than 1:1
hydrogen...worst. U don't get to even dig for them. probably 1:0.05. (think about transporting and keeping hydrogen. It's hard)
u dig with 1 energy unit , u gain 30 energy unit back (oil)
ethanol..well... I think it's less than 1:1
hydrogen...worst. U don't get to even dig for them. probably 1:0.05. (think about transporting and keeping hydrogen. It's hard)
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