For those that might be interested and have cable or satellite TV, Discovery channel next Thursday evening will be talking about "chemtrails" on their Best Evidence show. It is on at 9pm Eastern and 1am the next morning Eastern.

Never heard that one. All that should be necessary for contrail formation and persistence is cold air, high humidity and water vapor in the exhaust. Rich fuel mixtures should not have any effect. It also did seem that you were saying normal contrails couldn't persist from this statement

Perhaps I misunderstood?

yeah television is pretty reliable source i guess..........................

what may i ask makes it the \"best\" evidence show? is it called that?

just curious ill watch it too itll be great to bring here to debate

thanks for giving us that tip

Yes it is called Best Evidence. That is why I capitalized the name. They investigate various myths and conspiracies and try to look at the best evidence for either side.

im not going to go over it all again after 9 pages of saying what i feel is the difference and whats going on

check into that rich mixture thing.........................

I was being rather general in my statement after all i have posted quite a few posts in this thread explaining my position

have a nice evening


cool beans

ha ha ha

Its Mr RandMcnally to the scene

thats comical JP

I'm still not convinced.

I'm under a major air-route.

I see contrails every day: broken, some dissipating, some spreading out and last for considerable time. I've seen them for the last 6 years.

I can access our met-centre data, and conditions are similar for contrail formation.

I checked out reported medical data for our area, and there are no unusual instances of any illnesses. If anything, we are a particularly healthy region.

No significant weather pattern changes (data does take account of El Nino / La Nina shifts).

Sorry, but I want to see hard evidence reviewed by experts in the field before I would consider anything that has been mentioned about chemtrails / weather alteration, etc.

I have not seen anything like that so far. Linking to an official site that mentions something that someone else says is the cause of what someone else says has happened to them is not solid, peer-reviewed data.

My JOB or my intent is not to CONVINCE YOU of anything sorry?
under a major air route is Not the BEST place to be observing the phenomenon, We are describing as Obviously you have whordes of planes flying about ........not impossible to discern th difference, but in MY EXPERIENCE.............. I live within 2 hrs of the busiest airport in the world .NEVER........NEVER............................NEVER not once, have i seen them doing what im describing, anywhere NEAR the air lanes,or near ohare........ get 1 hour north ,1 hour south, 1 west ,get out to the COUNTRY where there are NO MAJOR AIR routes and youll begin to see.................

thats my best advice to you as being too close to the airport will not be a good place to witness these daily occurrances


thats CRAP waste of time .As EVERY DAY here seems to be the right conditions, EVERY DAY, summer,fall,winter, dry, humid, hot, cold, none of the above matter,
with what i and others in my area have been watching, and keeping logs on
why would ther be? or why does there have to be? this isnt a singular issue as i have taken great time t detail in this thread
well then you have chosen to ignore large amounts of data in this thread, and are basically LAZY, as there are so many sites about this issue it makes ones head spin ......it will take you over a year to slice through the surface though, and begin to get anyhwere..... especially considering your current track record, and mindset good luck on your quest if you should Decide that you "UP to THE CHALLENGE"


Other wise all i can tell you is keep watching every day everywhere you go soon enough EVEN YOU will question what is happening i have been through this HUNDREDS of times in the last 2 yrs from family memebers, to friends ,to co workers, to strangers at a base ball game!!
the common denominator ......EVENTUALLY THEY ALL CALL ME wanting MORE INFO



I have never proclaimed proof of anything nor has anyone else here this is a DISCUSSION of current activity in the sky above our heads
your right outside of Clifford Carnicoms site, there are no real others to nail this as a SINGULAR event!! as i posted on early in this thread there is a REASON for this...because there are SEVERAL TECHNOLOGIES INVOLVED feel free to investigate ONe of them or ALL of them

this cannot be handled in a few posts at a message board,,, this post is to awaken the sleeping american people........not to convince you im a messenger not a PHD

thats all and to discuss the technologies currently employed that may be completly related to what we are experiencing........http://www.carnicom.com


have a great day

Thanks that Carnicom site was a nice find

you can check out this one too

http://chemtrailcentral.com

enjoy

frenat, there may be a reason why you've never heard that.
No pilot ever flew a bomber at altitude with a rich (or "richer" mixture). Mixtures are leaned progressively as one gets above around 5000 feet. These machines were flying at FL250 and above typically, and they were leaned out pretty good. Running rich at altitude makes the engine run rough, inefficiently, and will eventually foul the things and make them cut down. Not a good thing (thinner air means you need less fuel in the mix, thus, as you climb, you lean).

If anything, rich would produce smoke in the connie, if anything.

Just a point of interest.

I can't remember his name, the reporter who nearly died from US military ani anthrax drugs that began the cover up code named Gulf war Syndrome. He has researched for 18 months the link between chem trials and the suddenly hushed up Influenza epidemics in places under chem trails since they began.

The epidemics kills the old mainly but has the same hall marks as Gulf War syndrome. and remember. US soldiers who never went to Iraq but took the military drugs still died in the USA. Now who are we pointing the finger at when we chat about terror attacks or attacks on US soldiers. why was there no official apology. You better not get drafted huh?

Anyway, the epidemics are in there hundreds of thousands and numbers have been increasing at a staggering rate.

So what are we going to do about it? nothing I guess.

ou an do a search engine on `chemtrails influenza` if you want justice. the number of influenza cases are staggering. And there is definately a doctor coverup. CNN went dead on this when doctors lied that the illnesses was the flu.

my brother predicted that bird flu was to be reintroduced slowly this year in europe then the US before that will become an epidemic. He made predcitions last year. you can doo a search on that as weel. You might as well know what is going to do your family in.

STAY AWAY FROM FLU SHOTS

that is HOW theyre PLANTING the DORMANT VIRUS IN YOU......................

Ah, but of course...


I'd say, stay away from flu shots because they're largely ineffective and can be harmful. But somehow, I don't think that's what your talking about , is it?

http://www.bariumblues.com/

http://www.bariumblues.com/haarp_patent.htm

It has also been proposed to release large clouds of barium in
the magnetosphere so that photoionization will increase the cold
plasma density, thereby producing electron precipitation through
enhanced whistler-mode interaction.

I hate to break it to you, but you won't find ANY aircraft leaving contrails/chemtrails in the ionosphere or magnetosphere because air-breathing engines don't tend to work well in a vacuum. We're talking about space here, not the atmosphere. The quote you referenced is discussing the potential release of barium into one of the Van Allen radiation belts to reduce the level of trapped electrons (i.e. the radiation).

Im well aware of that the point wasnt of aircraft....the point was the use of the barium and H.A,A,R,P,



[HAARP]

UNITED STATES PATENT

Eastlund

Patent Number: 4,686,605 Date of Patent: Aug. 11, 1987

METHOD AND APPARATUS FOR ALTERING A REGION IN THE EARTH'S
ATMOSPHERE, IONOSPHERE, AND/OR MAGNETOSPHERE

----------------------------------------------------------------

Since it has nothing to do with aircraft, a potential space-based use for barium is completely irrelevant in a chemtrail thread. And by the way, it's also completely unrelated to HAARP in this document. The author is proposing to use the HAARP concept as a simpler ALTERNATIVE to the barium, not in conjunction with it.

And yes, I’m well aware that the word “atmosphere” is used in that patent document. I’m also aware that none of the references to the atmosphere have anything to do with chemical release or spraying (especially the barium release).

I really fail to see where you're going with all of this. You've stated time and time again in this thread that you agree that contrails are normal:



You also admitted that it’s possible for contrails to persist:



And that commercial aircraft are not involved:



Yet when I visit the sites you recommend (carnicom.com, chemtrailcentral.com, etc.), the vast majority of the photos show what to me are just ordinary-looking persistent contrails, and where an aircraft is identifiable, it’s almost always a commercial airliner.

So, what exactly is it that you’re seeing in the sky that’s so unusual? I don’t want to hear about vague references to military or government programs that may or may not exist and may or may not involve chemical release into the atmosphere. I just want to know what direct evidence you have that something odd is going on in the sky. You’ve said you’re keeping logs of your observations. What have you seen? What types of aircraft are doing the spraying? Why are these things not normal contrails?

The thread is 19 pages long i have stated what ive felt over end over im not repeating it all for you in a single post
read the whole thread

thanks for posting

Same old answer. Well done.

Anyone intereseted in my position on this I started in the thread around page Seven

Im sorry that Im not going to condense it all into a single post for you ...its all there

My opinions can clearly be found and read within the thread..and being that you

eggmumby have been posting the thread all along you already Know where i stand

that is the reason for your silly response percy on the other hand has some reading to do

thanks for posting

I assume that “percy” refers to me? I have most definitely read all of your posts – more than once, in fact. How else would I be able to quote from them? As far as I can tell from your posts, you seem to believe that the contrail patterns you’re seeing are unusual and are evidence of some type of aerial spraying.

You’ve said patterns like this are not normal:


But you laugh off explanations for these patterns as “very convincing..............to a third grade student” without saying WHY you think we’re wrong:


And so, I was hoping you’d be willing to clarify things for me a bit. If not, though, that’s fine with me. Let’s close out this topic and move on to other things.

as i stated my position is very clearly detailed in the thread i am not going try and sum it all up for you in a single post

One only needs to look up into the skies on a daily basis to see what we are discussing.....simple really

yeah planes always fly tic tac toe grids for no reason..........your wrong because your not adressing what im witnessing your trying to simplify a complex issue into a singular

cause or posting and as i have stated that just is not the case it is not possible to answer in a singular event it is a myriad of complex issues all tied to one ball of string

to complicate the issue and make the average person GIVE UP in theyre quest for truth



how else would you be able to quote from them.......................................Actually that dosent show that you read them.....just that you chose CERTAIN pints to address

ignoring the plethora of information i have provided you..............................its no matter really most of my points have been made and are availible for any to read that is

my only goal here.........you have your opinion And i Mine..........learn to live with that

Planes fly in the direction they fly for a decided reason, always. They're going someplace specific. They don't fly "tic tac toe grids" by design. That just happens to be the impression you get when you view intersecting contrails from the ground. Tens of thousands of daily airline operations are bound to produce connies that intersect, as every jet route over the country is populated by aircraft at some time or another, every day.

You're looking at the trails of jets going different places, at different altitudes, and their contrails, at the moment, simply appear to intersect in a tic tac toe-like pattern. That simply means that American 433 passed over head at FL 330 heading west, and shortly before, or thereafter, United 1202 crossed it's path heading northbound at FL 350. There may have been two jets flying along the same jet route within a couple minutes of each other, or perhaps one, then another several minutes later, the contrail of the one being moved by the jet stream winds.

You'll also frequently see several aircraft cutting several contrails at the same time, flying parallel to each other, separated by a couple miles laterally as well as for and aft. I'm sure this gives you the impression of a clandestine spraying pattern, but in reality it too is common, where several aircraft are on the same jet route (which is many miles wide), and ATC separates them sideways, and by distance for and aft. This is a safety thing...not chemtrail spreading technique...

not sure if you are seeing the same thing i've seen but they look to me like long trails from a streaming jet, I see them quite often but never really thought of it. The first time I've seen it freaked me out. But since we are near the Naval Base in Ft Worth. I pay it no mind. Heck, the govt wont admit it, if it were true in the the first place.

Sorry Not one word of what you stated here supports what i and others are watching and discussing with you...


People Dont listen to me Dont listen to Him
LOOK UP IN THE SKIES FOR A WEEK or longer

the next bright sunny morning...........................or afternoon watch for a while


All of what has been posted by MID is True None of the mechanics he discusses are wrong

The manner in which he Attempts to impart them on what we are seeing is nefarious

The man above is a True De-Bunker.they follow a certain tack and he does like a robot

as i state its not what hes saying that i dispute it dosent apply to what I am discussing with you

if you read closely you will see what he is doing...............he is very good at it

as Most of the "Real" ones are always remember this your typing/talking to a "PIECE OF GLASS"

Think a little bit about who may/or is on the other side of That Glass

thanks for you post but i actually Fail to see what it has do with what I am diacussing?



thanks for Posting

Thanks for your observation!! alway like to hear what you all are seeing in the sky
being your near a Naval base you probably look up alot as jets from the base fly by one day when your bored and sitting around watch the sky for an hour or so
Im sure youll find it Intriguing

So let me get this straight: Everything MID just posted is absolutely true … but we shouldn’t listen to him because he’s some sort of (wink, wink) secret government DEBUNKER. Okaaay.

By the way, you’ve now stated in writing on this forum that you agree with the following (see above and my post here for details):
1) Contrails are normal
2) Persistent contrails can be formed when conditions are correct
3) Crisscrossing and parallel contrail patterns are a normal result of everyday jet traffic
4) Commercial aircraft are not involved with “chemtrails” in any way

Congratulations, you’ve just debunked every single “chemtrail” photo I’ve ever seen posted on the web.

If none of the material MID and others have posted here is relevant to what you’re seeing, then please SHOW US SOME EVIDENCE of just what it is that you think is so unusual in the sky.

Ahhhh passing the buck.........fabulous give it a go chap
anyone truly interested Knows what i am saying here.......i dont expect anyone to listen MID You or myself I expect that they will read some of this and start paying attention and then do the research on theyre own ..to date i have had Dozens of people just like you in the end see exactly what it is we are discussing
Im not here to make anyone believe anything Im here to make them think on theyre OWN not listen to peeps like you and your Bud here



Brilliant you do know how to read yes Contrails are a normal occurring phenomenon if the conditions for them are correct.
So what is exactly your point?
Contrails are NOT chemtrails i have clearly stated the differnces and what i believe to be the causes ....you chose the Easy Button argument i see.
lets hash over all the finer points to try and make him stumble and appear "Crazy" or a whackjob conspiracist.No problemo dude I can deal with your line of questioning


Very Very good YOU do pay at least SOME attention dont you? Gold star for you today percy.
And Yes again "IF THE CONDITIONS ARE RIGHT see here is where your a bit mixed up .......yes they CAN persist But you see THIS IS NOT NORMAL with contrails and the conditions have to be just right.........are you proposing to me that the conditions for "Unique" Contrails are present DAILY? if that were the case PERSISTING contrails would have ALWAYS been and would always be...............considering ANYONE with a smatter of intelligence looking into the sky on most any given day Probably will see what we are discussing and many many times you will have planes flying leaving Normal contrails and others flying right there with them leaving Contails that do NOT BEHAVE normalls as the others do

again Dont believe any of US LOOK IN THE SKY pay Attention for 2 weeks take the consience effort to "MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND" Your intelligent your reading this post as you may be thinking you have something to add or it has peaked your interest take the 2 weeks be objective pay attention .its really not that hard to see the difference when you start paying attention...my job here is to get you thinking looking and researching for YOUR OWN position



No actually you are taking extreme liberty with what ive said here ......planes flying and making Tic tac toes and X'S and H's while your watching them all do it is NOT normal
Yes some flight patterns OBVIOUSLY intersect? are we that simple minded here? do i need to talk slowly ?
AS i stated watch the skies for yourselves pay attention to old movies versus new movies i assure you once you objectivley pay attention it will be simple for all to see





Again you take extremem liberty and twist what was said to suit your opinion ...........works for me any 12 year old can see this ploy..............



arent you Cute and Smug? dont you feel all warm and fuzzy? really your laughable my friend

NO what i said is that what he said DOES NOT APPLY to what i am witnessing what he posted is a bunch of information that Most anyone interested in this subject is well past
why are you Blind? Are you unable for some reason to look at the horizon? cant look up? auto accident perhaps?
as i stated I started in the thread page 7 My points are all layed out i have provided links and pictures

What I did was not designed to support anything you say. It was presented to address your comment:




Which was obviously designed to imply that the apparent patterns you illustrated were some sort of nefarious chemtrail spreading technique.


My comments merely showed you what you don't understand about jet traffic, when you imply that it is chemtrail spreading.



By the way,

Thanks, pericynthion!

It was presented to address my comment i see.....it wasnt posted to somehow
say that I am wrong your just talking here..........?

the Grid patterns I am seeing as well as others do NOT fall into your Flight path category sorry bud

I didnt Imply all jet traffic was spreading Chemtrails Now did I? BUT YOU DID?

Wow, in all your post in this thread I have yet to see a valid argument from you. You clearly have no knowledge of how contrails are affected by the atmospheric conditions in the area. As evident in the following quote.


"Just right" and "unique" conditions are actually a pretty broad set of conditions. Contrails lasting 3 or 4 hours is nothing out of the norm.

As for the tic-tac-toe pattern conspiracy you seem to have created all the needs to be said is lol.

hahahahahah

yeah right cause you guys sure Know your stuff ?

only simpletons believe things can be answered in 4 line posts........

especially my lil stalker Buddy here Mr.Magneseum....

The "THERMITE EXPERT"


thanks for posting

Washington urges scientists to develop ways to reflect sunlight as 'insurance'

David Adam, environment correspondent
Saturday January 27, 2007
The Guardian


linked-image
Smog above Phoenix, Arizona – US report suggests reflective dust could reduce warming. Photograph: Deirdre Hamill/AP

The US government wants the world's scientists to develop technology to block sunlight as a last-ditch way to halt global warming, the Guardian has learned. It says research into techniques such as giant mirrors in space or reflective dust pumped into the atmosphere would be "important insurance" against rising emissions, and has lobbied for such a strategy to be recommended by a major UN report on climate change, the first part of which will be published on Friday.

The US has also attempted to steer the UN report, prepared by the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), away from conclusions that would support a new worldwide climate treaty based on binding targets to reduce emissions - as sought by Tony Blair. It has demanded a draft of the report be changed to emphasise the benefits of voluntary agreements and to include criticisms of the Kyoto Protocol, the existing treaty which the US administration opposes.
The final IPCC report, written by experts from across the world, will underpin international negotiations to devise a new emissions treaty to succeed Kyoto, the first phase of which expires in 2012. World governments were given a draft of the report last year and invited to comment.

The US response, a copy of which has been obtained by the Guardian, says the idea of interfering with sunlight should be included in the summary for policymakers, the prominent chapter at the front of each IPCC report. It says: "Modifying solar radiance may be an important strategy if mitigation of emissions fails. Doing the R&D to estimate the consequences of applying such a strategy is important insurance that should be taken out. This is a very important possibility that should be considered."

Scientists have previously estimated that reflecting less than 1% of sunlight back into space could compensate for the warming generated by all greenhouse gases emitted since the industrial revolution. Possible techniques include putting a giant screen into orbit, thousands of tiny, shiny balloons, or microscopic sulphate droplets pumped into the high atmosphere to mimic the cooling effects of a volcanic eruption. The IPCC draft said such ideas were "speculative, uncosted and with potential unknown side-effects".

The US submission is based on the views of dozens of government officials and is accompanied by a letter signed by Harlan Watson, senior climate negotiator at the US state department. It complains the IPCC draft report is "Kyoto-centric" and it wants to include the work of economists who have reported "the degree to which the Kyoto framework is found wanting". It takes issue with a statement that "one weakness of the [Kyoto] protocol, however, is its non-ratificiation by some significant greenhouse gas emitters" and asks: "Is this the only weakness worth mentioning? Are there others?"

It also insists the wording on the ineffectiveness of voluntary agreements be altered to include "a number of them have had significant impacts" and complains that overall "the report tends to overstate or focus on the negative effects of climate change." It also wants more emphasis on responsibilities of the developing world.

The IPCC report is made up of three sections. The first, on the science of climate change, will be launched on Friday. Sections on the impact and mitigation of climate change - in which the US wants to include references to the sun-blocking technology - will follow later this year.

The likely contents of the report have been an open secret since the Bush administration posted its draft copy on the internet in April. Next week's science report will say there is a 90% chance that human activity is warming the planet, and that global average temperatures will rise another 1.5C to 5.8C this century depending on emissions. The US response shows it accepts these statements, but it disagrees with a more tentative conclusion that rising temperatures have made hurricanes more powerful.

· See the US document here in pdf format.

Source THE GUARDIAN

four active projects ongoing in the atmosphere.

The first project is an effort to block the rays of the sun from hitting the earth including the ultra violet radiation that will come through without an adequate layer of ozone in the upper regions above the earth. This, it is hoped, will lower temperature on the surface of the earth and block ultra
violet radiation from causing skin cancer in humans. The aerosol is probably aluminum oxide or a compound that would have similar properties.

The second and most secretive project is the United States Navy's, RFMP, Radio Frequency Mission Planner, military program. The RFMP is the system name given to a group of computer programs and one of the supporting,
subprograms within the RFMP system is called the VTRPE computer program. VTRPE is an acronym that stands for Variable Terrain Radio Parabolic Equation, It is a computer Radio Frequency propagation program that deals
with radio waves and enables the RFMP system to visually see the battlefield terrain in 3 dimensions (3-D) on a television screen. The RFMP system also
depends on satellites to feed their images of the battlefield into the RFMP system to be combined with the battlefield picture painted from the ground thus producing 3-D images.

By providing an extremely interactive and visual (television type radar screens) environment, the Radio Frequency Mission Planner, RFMP system allows the computer operator to develop familiarity with the "Radio Frequency" environment before a battlefield war mission occurs by playing a variety of "what-if" virtual warfare scenarios on his computer screen. Since all major modes of Radio Frequency propagation are modeled in his computer, (RFMP system), special, sometimes counter- intuitive, cases can be examined
in detail and exploited during a warfare battle mission.

The VTRPE computer program only worked accurately over water and along coastal areas but not over land masses because the system's radar waves required an atmospheric condition known as "ducting", over land, to operate
accurately.

The government and military solved the "ducting" problem by releasing an aerosol, a mixture of barium salts into the atmosphere over America. They made an atmospheric RF duct with a base of barium aerosol from aircraft. The
chemical and electrical characterics of the mixture will cause water moisture to stay in clouds. Again, the aerosol sets up an electrical and chemical environment that supports RF ducting for the RFMP / VTRPE warfare
system. Fibers with barium may support ducting. The mixture of barium salt aerosol when sprayed in a straight line will also provide a ducting path from point A to point B and will enable high frequency communications along
that path, even over the curvature of the earth, in both directions. Enemy high frequency communications can be monitored easier with the straight line A to B ducting medium.

The third project also utilizes the mixture of barium salts in the atmosphere. Weather control is a project of the U.S. Air Force and utilizes Nikola Tesla concepts of radio frequency radiation (HAARP) against the ionosphere above the earth. Fragile life support systems in our environment
are being manipulated, tested and altered by government for military advantage. Air Force documents implied, "the risks are high but the rewards are worth it." The mixture of barium salts, supporting moisture, is encouraged along the weather fronts and manipulated in a control fashion. It
is believed microwave energy is also utilized in the weather control program. Weather data is also a required input to the VTRPE program of the RFMP system. Perfected weather control technology will enable a military to withhold rain, cause floods, cause drought, cause storms, withhold sunshine, damage food crops, and bring any country to its knees without firing a shot.

The fourth project in the atmosphere is the DARPA, Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency, biological detection and decontamination programs. The program also utilizes the mixture of barium salts as the base vehicle in
aerosol along with special polymer fibers in the atmosphere. They have released biological into the atmosphere in trials, testing the detection and decontamination systems.

It is believed that barium salt, polymer fibers and other chemicals, in the atmosphere are the physical irritants that are either directly or indirectly responsible, for the recent nationwide epidemic increase in cases of nose
bleed, asthma, allergies, pneumonia, upper respiratory symptoms and a noticeable increase in arthritis symptoms, recently reported nationwide. Chemicals illegally sprayed into the atmosphere are producing atmospheric
and ground conditions detrimental to human and animal health but favorable to the growth of harmful molds and fungus. These conditions are not conducive to good health. The soluble salts of barium, an earth metal, are
toxic in mammalian systems. They are absorbed rapidly from the gastrointestinal tract and are deposited in the muscles, lungs, and bone. No case data is available from the medical community on the long term effects of barium in the human body.

The programs are secret because the Federal EPA and State Environmental Quality Agencies need to "not know" about what the by-products of the metabolites of biological, illegal and harmful agents are. It's for that reason the project has been declared secret from the citizens.

Could you give me a non-conspiracy site link for each of those projects, so I can confirm that they are indeed operating?

Thanks.

He didn't even give a specific source. "The Guardian" only narrows it down to like 20 sources.

You're so predictable Mr. 5th grade math. You just continue to dance around any information and use ad hominem. I guess an intelligent debate is impossible with you.

And at least I can spell magnesium right and know the difference between thermite and thermate.

You're wasting your time. jimmy has made this his personal thread, and simply repeats the same stuff as people stop by. There is no arguing, there is no point to be made, and there is no disputing his "sources". I looked at some of them, and found some pretty interesting links. Hence, I stopped posting here, though I do stop by from time to time to laugh. No arguing with a self educated biker consumed by conspiracy theory websites. Or so I have decided.

Unfortunately, I did not imply that any jet traffic was spreading chemtrails....YOU DID. I also think everyone here sees that clearly.

The grid patters you seem to be seeing, and illustrating, are all very logical and have been explained ad-nauseam to you.

I have the suspicion that you may be correct in this, eq...

It's getting a bit boring.

jimmy,

Can I ask your rate in the Navy?

no sir they havent you havent provided proof of ZIP


i never discussed thermate cretin


do your own research


your welcome your opinion


your wrong.........

have a nice day


then why do you keep coming and posting?

we know