If he was born in 4 BCE, he would not have been born during the term of Cyrenius (6 CE-9 CE) plus he would have started his ministry before John the Baptist (his ministry started in 28 CE) and would have died before John the Baptist (died in 36 CE). Care to try again?

Please list your verses for the start of John's ministry. Would be nice. Oh, there were two Cyrenius's, according to Josephus, which can add some confusion. We should be aware of common names of that time, i.e. there were more than one Cleopatra. Both were involved with political figures, both were scandlous. Where does it say that John the Baptist died in 36 C.E.?

I hate to intrude but as i once saw it that christianity was a deillusional religion that was forced upon and rejected other religions, they tried to overrun femine religions such as paganism and such and they are based on a psychology level were wrong is right and vice versa and faith is placed in a sole man god (not women, this made me think for once) if you look closely and understood as i did, i saw it was a coded/very complexed system of a religion it was, can you say that when you think of this and then you never heard of the da vinci code that that is just a mere coincindence (99/100 deju/coincidence i have) in truth it is what faith we have in ourselves as well as in others.

http://gotquestions.org/did-Jesus-exist.html

Another good link regarding Jesus.

Ask the Jewish people, they'll tell you Jesus existed. So will the muslims. Heck, you don't have take a Gentile's word for it.

99% of the dirt anyone can dig up on the Church is from the past, in regards to the actions and doctrines of the Church of Rome. Doesn't anyone find this to be deja vu. Guess what, not everyone agrees with that Church. And the Church of Rome wasn't the first Church. It was the first Church to organize religion and mingle with politics. Its funny, alot people blame God for what other people have done. Why?

What do you care? You've dismissed Jewish claims of Daniel and their Messiah before. So now you're embracing their claims of Jesus' existence?!

Jews for Judaism: The Messiah
http://keyword.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.j...rjudaism.org%2F

FAQ's page
http://keyword.netscape.com/ns/boomframe.j...rjudaism.org%2F



Yes, it was. This is Classics 101. Oh, that's right, you listen only to the Holy Spirit! What is the HS telling you now? Like to share what IT'S been saying to you? Do you receive these messages audibly or through divine revelation?

Sean

So they may point the finger at someone besides themselves. Most don't realize the point you just made though. Most will ask, "Where was God on 9/11?"

I'm sure he was there. But the pilots that flew those planes into the twin towers could have at any time turned those planes away just as easy as they chose evil. And that's just it. God gave us ALL free will, so changing the pilot's courses would be contradicting His own word.

just because the majority of people believe something to be true does not make it so...you do understand that right?

People believe all kinds of things that are false ask an athiest if Jesus lived? why not believe him?

By the same token, a lot of people give credit to god for what other people have done. Why?

Because RachelM they need a Scapegoat on what has happened/or is going to happen. i mean if someone has done something good THAT PERSON has done the good NOT god

Luke 3:1 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judaea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Philip tetrarch of Ituraea and of the region of Trachonitis, and Lysanias the tetrarch of Abilene,

Tiberius Caesar ascended the throne in 14 CE and reigned until 37 CE. His 15th year of reigning would be 29 CE. That would be 3 years after Jesus would have started his ministry. Supposedly (by the gospels) John the Baptist had been ministering for a year or so when Jesus started his ministry. This means that he could not have been born in 4 BCE.

The only Cyrenius that Joseph mentioned was Publius Sulpicius Quirinus and here is what he said about him:
FROM THE BANISHMENT OF ARCHELUS TO THE DEPARTURE FROM BABYLON.
CHAPTER 1.
HOW CYRENIUS WAS SENT BY CAESAR TO MAKE A TAXATION OF SYRIA AND JUDEA; AND HOW COPONIUS WAS SENT TO BE PROCURATOR OF JUDEA; CONCERNING JUDAS OF GALILEE AND CONCERNING THE SECTS THAT WERE AMONG THE JEWS.
1. NOW Cyrenius, a Roman senator, and one who had gone through other magistracies, and had passed through them till he had been consul, and one who, on other accounts, was of great dignity, came at this time into Syria, with a few others, being sent by Caesar to he a judge of that nation, and to take an account of their substance. Coponius also, a man of the equestrian order, was sent together with him, to have the supreme power over the Jews. Moreover, Cyrenius came himself into Judea, which was now added to the province of Syria, to take an account of their substance, and to dispose of Archelaus's money; but the Jews, although at the beginning they took the report of a taxation heinously, yet did they leave off any further opposition to it, by the persuasion of Joazar, who was the son of Beethus, and high priest; so they, being over-pesuaded by Joazar's words, gave an account of their estates, without any dispute about it. Yet was there one Judas, a Gaulonite, (1) of a city whose name was Gamala, who, taking with him Sadduc, (2) a Pharisee, became zealous to draw them to a revolt, who both said that this taxation was no better than an introduction to slavery, and exhorted the nation to assert their liberty; as if they could procure them happiness and security for what they possessed, and an assured enjoyment of a still greater good, which was that of the honor and glory they would thereby acquire for magnanimity. They also said that God would not otherwise be assisting to them, than upon their joining with one another in such councils as might be successful, and for their own advantage; and this especially, if they would set about great exploits, and not grow weary in executing the same; so men received what they said with pleasure, and this bold attempt proceeded to a great height. All sorts of misfortunes also sprang from these men, and the nation was infected with this doctrine to an incredible degree; one violent war came upon us after another, and we lost our friends which used to alleviate our pains; there were also very great robberies and murder of our principal men. This was done in pretense indeed for the public welfare, but in reality for the hopes of gain to themselves; whence arose seditions, and from them murders of men, which sometimes fell on those of their own people, (by the madness of these men towards one another, while their desire was that none of the adverse party might be left,) and sometimes on their enemies; a famine also coming upon us, reduced us to the last degree of despair, as did also the taking and demolishing of cities; nay, the sedition at last increased so high, that the very temple of God was burnt down by their enemies' fire. Such were the consequences of this, that the customs of our fathers were altered, and such a change was made, as added a mighty weight toward bringing all to destruction, which these men occasioned by their thus conspiring together; for Judas and Sadduc, who excited a fourth philosophic sect among us, and had a great many followers therein, filled our civil government with tumults at present, and laid the foundations of our future miseries, by this system of philosophy, which we were before unacquainted withal, concerning which I will discourse a little, and this the rather because the infection which spread thence among the younger sort, who were zealous for it, brought the public to destruction.
2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I a little touch upon them now.
3. Now, for the Pharisees, they live meanly, and despise delicacies in diet; and they follow the conduct of reason; and what that prescribes to them as good for them they do; and they think they ought earnestly to strive to observe reason's dictates for practice. They also pay a respect to such as are in years; nor are they so bold as to contradict them in any thing which they have introduced; and when they determine that all things are done by fate, they do not take away the freedom from men of acting as they think fit; since their notion is, that it hath pleased God to make a temperament, whereby what he wills is done, but so that the will of man can act virtuously or viciously. They also believe that souls have an immortal rigor in them, and that under the earth there will be rewards or punishments, according as they have lived virtuously or viciously in this life; and the latter are to be detained in an everlasting prison, but that the former shall have power to revive and live again; on account of which doctrines they are able greatly to persuade the body of the people; and whatsoever they do about Divine worship, prayers, and sacrifices, they perform them according to their direction; insomuch that the cities give great attestations to them on account of their entire virtuous conduct, both in the actions of their lives and their discourses also.
4. But the doctrine of the Sadducees is this: That souls die with the bodies; nor do they regard the observation of any thing besides what the law enjoins them; for they think it an instance of virtue to dispute with those teachers of philosophy whom they frequent: but this doctrine is received but by a few, yet by those still of the greatest dignity. But they are able to do almost nothing of themselves; for when they become magistrates, as they are unwillingly and by force sometimes obliged to be, they addict themselves to the notions of the Pharisees, because the multitude would not otherwise bear them.
5. The doctrine of the Essens is this: That all things are best ascribed to God. They teach the immortality of souls, and esteem that the rewards of righteousness are to be earnestly striven for; and when they send what they have dedicated to God into the temple, they do not offer sacrifices (3) because they have more pure lustrations of their own; on which account they are excluded from the common court of the temple, but offer their sacrifices themselves; yet is their course of life better than that of other men; and they entirely addict themselves to husbandry. It also deserves our admiration, how much they exceed all other men that addict themselves to virtue, and this in righteousness; and indeed to such a degree, that as it hath never appeared among any other men, neither Greeks nor barbarians, no, not for a little time, so hath it endured a long while among them. This is demonstrated by that institution of theirs, which will not suffer any thing to hinder them from having all things in common; so that a rich man enjoys no more of his own wealth than he who hath nothing at all. There are about four thousand men that live in this way, and neither marry wives, nor are desirous to keep servants; as thinking the latter tempts men to be unjust, and the former gives the handle to domestic quarrels; but as they live by themselves, they minister one to another. They also appoint certain stewards to receive the incomes of their revenues, and of the fruits of the ground; such as are good men and priests, who are to get their corn and their food ready for them. They none of them differ from others of the Essens in their way of living, but do the most resemble those Dacae who are called Polistae (4) [dwellers in cities].
6. But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.

Like most Christians, you have either purposely or inadvertently identified the Roman governor of Syria during 6-3 BCE, P. Quinctilius Varus as the second “Cyrenius”. They are not the same person, Quinctilius actually served under Quirinius during the latter’s expedition into Turkey. All you have to do is sound out the names, Quirinius is much closer to Cyrenius than Quinctilius. Also, there was no “world-wide” census during the tenure of Quinctilius. Augustus Caesar, in his self biography listed 28 BCE, 6 CE and 14 CE as the only such censuses conducted during his reign and that is from the “horse’s mouth. As for John the Baptist’s death, it is reported by Josephus as the reason that the Jews thought Herod lost the battle to his father in law and had to be “rescued” by Romans. This battle occurred in 36 CE. Either way, 4 BCE is not a valid “guess”.


Actually, 2 out of every three humans in the world are not Christians (down from 1.5) and only 63% of Americans claim to be Christians and only 23% of those go to Church at least once a week, hardly a majority.

I was just wondering, if Jesus died for "our" sins, then what about all the people who died before Jesus? Were they just out of luck? Do they get to go to Heaven now too? And why do we need Jesus as a personal savior? This I've never understood. If Jesus replaced animal sacrifice that was used to attone for our sins, then why do we still need a savior? The deed has been done, why do we need to become Christians and have Jesus "save" us? According to Christian doctrine, he's already done that.

Also, it was mentioned that Jesus was mentioned in the Old Testament. I'd really love to know exactly where Jesus, SPECIFICALLY, was mentioned in the Old Testament. If you mean the Messiah, then yeah, he/she/it/them is referred to in prophecy, but you are making the assumption that Jesus was him.

I have asked that very same question....what about those who lived on this earth long before Jesus...long before moses even.....the way some religious people make it out, is that God only opened for business after his son died on the cross....and they claim anyone that dont accept Jesus will go to hell...this I do laugh at, because no sod knows who will get or who will not get into heaven....so really what they are saying is heaven is pretty much empty....!!!!!! Ohh and dont forget God is ALL Loving and ALL Forgiving does any of this add up to you??

Well; if you've actually read the Bible you'll see that it says that Jesus's sacrfice forgave the sins of the people that lived before his existance..
Remember the scene where he rescued Adam from Hell ?(It may have been Act II, Scene V ..Or was that Henry the IV? )..
That pretty much wraps up original sin, right there..
Either way; my own sins are mine uniquely now; without the stigma of the original search for the knowledge of good and evil..Thank the Lord for that..
Basically; if you are truly penitent, and want to make yourself better; God can accept that, and take you at face value..
Assuming you mean it and do it..Hypocrites aren't welcome before the throne..
Of course they, aren't welcome in discussions of religion either; so let us not bring it to this thread..
Love and forgive, and take what penance comes your way for what you've done in your life to this point..Or hate and take vengeance..
But know that if you believe in then God you are never truly alone..
Even if your actions damn you tou Hell like mine have; understand that your love for the Lord and the people he's brought to your life and his plan for you makes no punishment eternal..
You will be glorified for your every noble and selfless action in time..
Even those who don't believe, or don't follow Judaism, Christianity or Islam will stand in his favor merely for being wonderful in thier own way..
This is a side effect of the free will and action we've all been given..
Enjoy that..
Lord knows we as a people have earned it over the course of history..
,

And if you have read it but see it as fiction...and the only thing you took from the bible was God & Jesus did exist and still do..thats it nothing more, because you dont think the bible did God any justice or Jesus for that matter and the stories dont add up to you..but you STILL wanna know the reason as to WHY he died for our sins.....then what??? I guess the only real answer is when i die and get to ask him myself....the bible is based on belief and faith...if it where real truth and ACTUAL fact then ummm you dont have what you call a faith

I thought you are going to hell.. if i am right.. i think you beleive in other gods too..

Satan wouldnt accept me in hell LOL I believe there are other Gods but I only worship and folow the one God in heaven...


PS and Jesus

IIRC, yes.
one needs to accept a gift, to put it simply.

Before Jesus, there was an institution of animal sacrifice to atone for sins. The animal's however were not sufficient and were only a temporary measure, a foreshadowing of the true sacrifice - Jesus. Jesus' death is a gift, but as with any gift, it must be taken. The offer has been made, you can either choose to take the gift or reject it.

And for those who lived before Moses/Abraham/any other Old Testament document? No one can say for sure. Just as no one can say for sure what happens to those who live in remote areas and have never heard of Jesus. The Bible only discusses two types of people - those who hear and obey, and those who hear and reject. It discusses nothing of those who have not heard. Since most people have heard, indeed everyone who uses this argument has obviously heard, I've always seen this question more as a way to avoid the real issue than out of any real desire for answer, since obviously there can be no definitie answer that anyone can give.

That aside, you seem to be taking things from a very human perspective (there's nothing wrong with taht, I'm not criticizing). WHo says there needs to be a "before" and "after" in spiritual terms. Who's to say that in the next life our concept of linear time even exists. To a being on a different plane of existence to our own, time may not necessarily be static.

I think I've covered everything in your post.

Regards, PA

Ah, see, I have read the Bible. Given it has been a while since I read the New Testament, because it no longer pertains to me. I gave up on it you see. The reason I brought up this point is that I found out along the way that Christianity is the only one of the religions you mentioned that believes in Original Sin. If you read the Torah (or your Old Testament) you will see that Adam and Eve were punished for their sins. Everyone else seems to understand that. What do their sins have to do with me that Jesus would have to die for them? As for our individual sins there seems to be a consensus that you try to do good and like you said, if you are truly penatent then you will be forgiven. So then where does Jesus come in? And why? There were prophecies concerning a Messiah, but it had nothing to do with this person being dying for anyone, being a branch of God (as in the Trinity) or anything really to do with what Jesus was credited with doing. So I was just wondering if you (or anyone) knows where this concept of Original Sin and the personal savior first cropped up
By the way, thanks for your words on not having to belong to a specific religion to get to Heaven.

None of what you stated can be considered fact. You or nor any of us witnessed the events you describe. Sure, it may be true, or it might be fiction.

Would god forgive me right before I killed him assuming I found a way to kill him?

so what are you thinking the correct dates are?

You ever heard of the concept that life is in the blood? Genesis 9:4 But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat. Herein is the concept of original sin. For if the life we have is tainted with sin, we pass that on THROUGH our blood, which is our children. That is why a virgin birth was neccessary for Jesus's birth, that he be born pure, and not of the seed of sin. I know, I know, what about Mary? Wasn't she of the seed of men? Yes, but you should understand this the is conceptual. Its in the seed of the man that the bloodline is passed. The woman carries an egg, which needs to be fertilized by the seed. Thus she doesn't pass the seed, she recieves the seed. Keep in mind that this is conceptual. So thus was the Messiah's birth PURE in Mary, for the seed was of God.

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. When talking to the serpent, he distinguished the woman as having seed. How is this if the woman recieves the seed? The woman's seed represents God's children, those who followed God. The serpent's seed is those who are against God, by paganism, athiesm, ect. The emnity is Jesus. Its only through him that we can become children of God once more. Those who reject him are children of the serpent. Those who accept God are children of Eve. This is the down low on Original Sin. ofcourse its all my opinion.

What do you think would happen to you if you killed the only Way to obtaining eternal life?

I don't mean to speak on Mako's behalf, especially on his beliefs, but Im quite certain he agrees Jesus was actually never born. Just another mythological deity.

It goes by the children of Faith. Those who obeyed God and followed him (even though they sinned) looked forward to the coming of the Messiah and thus they were saved. Remember when the Israelites were in the wildnerness? They looked upon the serpent on the pole, and they were saved from death. No, I'm not calling Jesus a serpent. I'm calling sin the serpent. This was the victory over sin that all those before Jesus looked to and trusted in God. Even Job knew he would be resurrected, which means he counted on God's grace, just as did David, Hezekiah, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, ect.

How do we know Egyptian kings existed, or Persian kings, or Zoroaster? How can we prove the existance of any of these? By taking people's word for it. Regardless of what artifacts you have. The Christian history has 2,000 years worth of history about Jesus, and yet many disagree that he even existed? It sounds like speculation to me. But if that's what Mako believes, then that is fairly his belief.

I have tried every combination that I can think of and none of them meet all of the criteria of both the gospels and recorded history. The only conclusion that I can come to is that Christianity is a mix of Judaism and the older resurrected savior religions (Mythra, Osiris, Krishna, etc)/mysterycults created by a Jew with the name of Saul/Paul in the mid 1st century. There is, however, the possiblity that the Jesus of the gospels is a mix of earlier notable Jesuses of the 2nd and 1st centuries BCE (one of whom was the "Great Teacher" of the Essenes, which would explain the close similarity with Christianity), something that I will post later on the other forum.


We have letters (and even sometimes books) written by these individuals, we have contemporary statues of these individuals, monuments that they had erected, reports by contemporary historians, mention of these individuals by other kings and emperors in their letters, and day to day governmental documents written at their direction by the various functionaries of their govrnments! What contemporary items do we have for Jesus - *sound of crickets* - absolutely nothing until generations after the supposed facts! Conclusion - Jesus of Nazareth (the town Nazereth did not exist until 130 CE) is nothing more than a warmed over copy of older savior religions.

I'm really glad this is all your opinion because it had nothing to do with what I said. Yes, I know about blood carrying life. That's why you don't eat it. That's why you run down to the kosher butcher to make sure it's all drained and the right cuts of meat are cut and the animal was killed properly, etc. But what does that have to do with original sin? Original Sin was the whole apple in the garden thing. And Adam and Eve were punished for it. (And no I don't have time to go find the quotes at the moment, though I will if someone really wants them) Suffice to say that humans would now have to work for their food and men and women would cleave like you mentioned, women would have painful child birth and all that. No they weren't kicked out of the Garden for it. Common misconception I know, but that what something different. Ok, so Adam and Eve and the apple, the first sin as in Original. So they were punished for it. Shouldn't that be the end of the story?
Why do we need Jesus to be children of God again? Yes, we sin, we made sacrifices, now we do other things. Remember Abraham, Isaac and Jacob? Remember the whole, I will establish my covenent with you, thing? Or Mount Sinai where God sends his laws and says if you follow my commandments, I will make you a great nation and you can live happily ever after in the land of milk and honey? Doesn't this make us his children?

It already addresses that in the Old Testament, those who know the father know the son, those who know the son know the father, people come on, take the chance to read into stuff more.

Well, I was hoping to show you how the Original sin was carried in each of us down through time from Adam.
It was by disobeying God that sin entered the world, and it was by obeying God that sin was taken from the world. Notice that Jesus fulfilled all the commandments of God. So those, now, who place their faith and obedience in Jesus are the holy nation of God who can live happily ever after in the land of milk and honey. So, yes, obeying God makes us his children.

You'll notice in the Adam and Eve story that god deliberately places the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil in the garden. There is no reason for this action other than to tempt. God then tells AE not to eat of the fruit of the tree. Notice this loving deity instructs them not to do this ... before he had given them the ability to discern right from wrong!!!!!! So, not understanding that they shouldn't eat of the fruit, they do so ... and NOW their eyes are opened and they are given the ability to know right from wrong!!!!!!!!!

Nice god! And now, folks, you and I must suffer because of this wonderful little episode!

PRAISE GOD!

Gen 3:4-7 - But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.

Well, let's look at this famous passage for problems! First off, the serpent tells Eve the truth - she didn't die, and she became like God, in the sense that she knew the difference between good and evil. The next thing that I found interesting was that before learning the difference between good and evil, Eve (and Adam, for that matter) supposedly had no idea that not following instructions might be "bad," so that they were in a catch-22 situation. Lastly, it appears that this is following the standard model of male-dominated religions - blaming the "creation" of evil on women. These folks didn't miss a trick!

SOURCE
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/bibcom/genesis.html

Sean

The serpent lied to Eve. She did not die immediately. But when did God ever say that her death would be immediate? He only said she would die. Also, by eating of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Adam and Eve did not become like God, for God can control the weather, stop death forever, cure blindness, and create the universe. No matter how close mankind has come to being like God, they have always failed. So Adam and Eve DID die, they DID NOT become like God, and they weren't stupid. They knew the law of obedience. The law of obedience didn't require you to know the reason why you shouldn't do something, it only required that you knew the consequences. Therefore was disobeying God her choice. Did she want to know the difference between good and evil, or did she want to live forever?

What you are missing is the fact that it doesn't matter if you know right from wrong if you are not obedient in the first place. I think God placed that tree so that they could eat of it, but wanted them to build a desire to obey God first. That makes sense of it all.

No they did not know the laws of obedience! And being like god meant knowing good from evil, not having supernatural powers. This is made VERY clear in Gen 3.

Gen 3:4-7 - But the serpent said to the woman, "You will not die; for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made loincloths for themselves.

God could have told them a million times not to eat of the fruit, and they would not have understood ... because their eyes had yet to be opened! And please tell me why god even found it necessary to put the tree there in the first place other than to tempt?! There is absolutely no reason for this whatsoever.



If you don't know right from wrong ... how can you know it's right to be obedient to god?!

Sean

What does knowing good and evil have to do with being obedient? Even a dog understands "NO!" even though he doesn't even know why. And how much greater are humans than dogs!

You are right about the being LIKE God, knowing good and evil, but they lost eternal life, thus it was vain. Eternal life is found in God only and if one doesn't abide in God and obey Him, then they willingly reject the eternal life that abides only in God.

The reason why the tree was there was so that when Adam and Eve proved their loyalty to God instead of themselves, that they might know good and evil and be able to judge right from wrong. Whatever God intended for them is beyond me, but God did not put that tree there to tempt Adam and Eve, IMO.

So, if I dog can understand obedience without knowing right from wrong, so can humans. So no, you do not need to understand good and evil before being obedient. Obedience requires loyalty, and good and evil have nothing to do with loyalty. For the good are loyal to the good and the evil are loyal to the evil. Its eating from the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil that showed Adam and Eve who their loyalty went to. Obedience is a must before good and evil recieve any value.

your concept of 'obedience' bluefinger, is a mindless acceptance without thought. Accepting without questioning. It may work for you, but not for others.

Early man Blue...most didnt even know there was a God...they only cared about survival...not everyone knew or thought there was a God...so what happenedto those that wernt aware or never even thought there is a God..or heard of that word itself...GOD??? What happened to them when they died huh??? Did God discriminate against his own creations all because they never learnt of him??

Well if you dont believe in the cave man onwards then you wont be able to answer my question

Ohh and what about those who lived long before that...and those who never learnt of the holy father ect...so because they never learnt of God...to hell with them huh?? Can you prove to me that everyone back in the early days of the cave man even,...knew or heard of God...or are you going to be ignorant and try and say there was no such thing cuz your lil book dont state it??

Thank you, JMPD1!!!!!!!! Trying to get a straightforward answer from Blue is akin to squeezing water from a turnip! UGH! I'm still trying to get a coherent response from him here ...

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...dpost&p=1210907

Sean

Jesus died for our sins so we could be forgiven and enter the Gates of Heaven.

A bit vague though, isn't it?

Ok, so the question obviously becomes, do we have to follow Jesus to be children of God? And if so, why? If we still obey God's commandments, but don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, shouldn't we still be children of God?

If a woman gave birth to a child and that child denied that she gave birth to him, that still makes him her son, right? However, the mother won't invite the son to her house for anything, because the son had denied her.

Its the same concept with God. We are all children of God, however, if you reject what God has done for you, what makes you think you are invited to stay with him? Jesus is God, and he was made manifest in the flesh to fulfill the word of God so that we may be redeemed unto him and delivered from sin (which brings us eternal seperation from God.) Why reject Jesus and still obey God's commandments? How can a man reject God's saving grace and still think that obeying his commands will give him eternal life? For even the Pharisees followed God's commands, yet they handed God himself up to be crucified by the Romans.

Now, if you question whether Jesus was God, think about this: (I'm stepping outside of the confines of Scripture here.) What is impossible for God the Almighty? If its possible for God to appear as a burning bush, a pillar of fire, a cloud over a tabernacle, a quite whisper, a glorious sign, then how is it impossible for him to come as a man and bare the cross for our sins? These things aren't impossible for God. I think people use their logic on God where it should only take faith, and thats where they get lost at Jesus. It requires faith, IMO.

Look around at the world. No one always obeys God's commandments. Not even the very best of us. We can try. But we will always fail. We will always at some points turn away from God, even if we immediately turn back.

That is so true.

Reason # 2 to question the veracity of the gospels. When did Jesus die? Be careful, it isn’t as cut and dried or as easy as it looks.

Because of the shortage of qualified coroners I would have to say shortly before the Roman soldier pierced His side releasing the water and blood from the pericardium surrounding the heart. Where the heck are those CSI guys when you need them?
Irish

Oh! ........ As for the actual date, we are not 100% certain as no one kept up their day timers very well. And those cumbersome wrist sundials never really caught on. Allso those heathen Romans were always messing around with their Gregorian calendars. Best guess would be somewhere between 10 BC and 30 AD. As the incarceration in Joseph’s tomb traditionally had to be before the Sabbath following the crucifixion it was probably around Friday.
Spring time seemed like a good time to celebrate the resurrection and pagans were having such a fun time with their spring rights the Christians decided to join them in a little Easter celebration. We have the same problems with Jesus’ birthday so those same Romans stole a another holiday from the pagans, but the pagans never complain and everyone’s been enjoying Christmas ever since.
Irish

Oh But wait it gets even better then that! Those Christians were coming out of the woodwork all over the place. And the lions were getting bored with the same old Christian tv dinners every night. So those same Romans decided what the heck if ya can’t beat join em. So Constantine decided on his own version of Christianity and ran it by his colleagues and set up his own church complete with confessionals, as God was not revealing what His people were really up too! So he set up the middle man approach so both him and God got a full report. Things were going well except his wife was now upset that it all seemed a little too patriarchal so he decided hey why not get Jesus’s mother more involved and elevate her position a bit. Years later old Leonardo thought what a great idea maybe we can involve that Magdalene girl a little bit. By the time everything was up and running you could not tell a Pagan from a Christian the best way to defeat an enemy is make him think he’s a friend.
After awhile the Lions were moaning and complaining again about their diet and it would be politically in-correct to start feeding them Christians again so off went the crusaders to find some heathen burgers.
And the new Roman church was having its own problems with the poverty and servitude thing that Jesus taught, its hard finding leaders if you don’t pay them well and after all a little luxury goes a long way as well the taxation thing was not bringing in enough to cover the costs an all. So a little forgiveness could be had, for the right amount of cold hard cash.

Irish