In days of past an animal would be found grazing in a pasture on a variety of plants but since WWII the food animal has undergone a revolution in lifestyle found themselves pulled off the pastures and set up in new digs CAFO (confined animal feeding operation)Light bulb moments of the american goverment's...if the truth be known this industrialization probably wouldn't of happened if it wasn't for the surplus in corn, cheap federally subsidized 'Zea Mays' .....for fish lovers fish are now being bred to tolerate corn.
Corn has proven to be quite a commodity and as the animals left the farm more land open, more corn....It seems logicical to some (the powers that be) to feed animals cheap corn in CAFO's after all it has made meat, which used to be on occassion im many homes now it can be eaten 3 meals a day..Yipee yipee Yet if we look alittle closer at this logic in a very short history CAFO's have produced more then there fair share of enviormental and health problems, polluted our waters and air, toxic waste plenty of it and novel and now deadly pathogens.....

Now here is the absurdity animals that adapted by natural selection to live on grass must be adapted by us ( humans those amazing creatures you may know a few of em) to eat only corn at considerable peril to the animals health the enviorments health and finally the eaters health, for no other reason them its the cheapest calories around and the greatest pile can be consumed...This short unhappy malnourished life of an animal which many eat marks triumph for the industrial revolution over the logic of evolution ....hmmm



Discuss

It's natural for humans to dominate. If by nature were we made, than natural we are, and our actions as well.

It's like... Nature Intended for us to create industry, and Intended for us to be able to manipulate what we do.

Celum give me a break are you inferring that man is actually superior to the intellegnce of nature??????have you ever cut yourself celum?????how did you heal?????

Domination is a catch phrase of a insecure egotistical human only applpicable in the realm of the relative.......

Did you read the OP??????It seems that its not so natural to take an animal off of grass......

Do all those question marks mean you're asking the question 6 times in a row? I'm inferring from what you said, that man as a product of nature is natural, and what we do is natural and intended by nature to be done.

Are you saying you're superior to the intellegence of nature?


Yes. Naturally. When someone else cut me, I naturally had a doctor sew me back up. Where are you going with that?


Domination, happens. Especially when you let it happen or are too weak to prevent it.


Yes. Why not? How do I know it won't evolve into a very successful superior meat producing animal? Mostly what you're talking about there, is how evil profitmaking is.

I *can* be safely ignored.

The way I see it, humans are still evolving.
We play God. I think everyone should go and watch Jurassic park 1. It makes some good points.
Celumnaz, I use to think the way you do. It use to be my reasoning for eating meat. I said to myself, "It's natural. If it wasn't natural, we wouldn't be here today, with all these industries!"
Unfortunately, it's human stupidity, not natural evolution that gets us here. Rene Descartes once said "I think, therefore I am".. My interpertation of this quote is that we as humans have the power to think, and thus the power to change. We play God, and then say that it's evolutionary for us to do this. It's funny, we can say we are smarter as an excuse to get away with things, but we can also say we are victims of evolution to get away with others.
The thing is, I can choose not to harm animals, and I can choose not to deprive animals of their NATURAL environment. Their natural environment is NOT a steel stall eating fatty corn all day, no matter how convenient it is for us to say so. We can live happy and healthy lives without eating animals. We evolved to be this way. We are eating animals out of pure selfishness for our tastbuds now, not for survival.
So we evolved to be greedy, and we evolved to be cruel to other innocent animals on this earth?
I'm sorry, but I have more respect for the human race than that, and I'm smarter than that. Go ahead and eat your meat, I can't and won't try to stop you. But don't say it's natural. It's selfish.

I never said evil anything, I stated facts....you said "evil" i don't do evil.. I do logic A. the animal is not naturally a corn eater...B. eating corn goes against what it is naturally...( If I put things in my body that shouldn't be there such as meat (vegan use this as an analogy) i put the whole organism at risk) C. it seems it is putting not only the animal but the enviorment and the water and the air and the eater at serious risk......I'm sure the gov't with its heart and soul beleives it is doing good.....

celum i have neevr had to go to the doctor to get sewn up for a cut, it seems my body NATURALLY can heal itself it hasn't to date needed medical intervention....

the field trip continues: The co-evolutionary relationship between a cow and grass is one of nature's most unappreciated wonders.It also happens to be the keytounderstanding everything about modern meat.....the grasser whcih has evolved to withstand the grazing of remnets, the cow maintains and expands their habitat by preventing trees and shrubs from gaining 'domination" and hogging the sunlight..the animal aalso spreads grass seed, plants it with its hooves, then fertilizes it with his manure, in exchange the grasses that grow provide the cows with lunch thus the cirlce of life as it happens naturally... See these animals have this special ability to convert these grasses iinto a high quality protien..they have a very highly evolved digestive organ called a rumen...nature has provided us with an excellent system.....yet it takes time and what industry doesn't have is time.....How does a 80 pound steer get to 1,100 lbs in fourteen months??????In days of past a steer reached slaughter at 5 years or better(before the fast food revolution)


A cow will reach slaughter with tremendous amounts of corn ( remeber this is not there natural food, protien, and fat supplements, and a arsenal of new drugs.....weaning defines the moment (within days )this animal begins its journey to your dinner plate....weaning is the hardest time for the animal and farmer alike the animal will bellow and cry for days the stress often makes the calves sick ( there are a few resons this is done so soon one is to free the mother to have more calves and to get the animals ready for the feedlot.......

I prefere free-range beef myself. We don't have too many feed lots around here. Sometimes It seems there are more cattle ( if you include dairy farms ) than there are people in Indiana.

not all meat is subjected to these circumstances. hunted meat and free range and kosher are not subjected to these.

I did. It's a summary of your opinion. Bad/Evil... whatever, making profit is the culprit.


Well, I was drunk, and a bunch of little gang bangers jumped a friend of mine and started running off. So me, being the drunk stupid kid I was (think I was 20 at the time), ran, caught up to the 1st getaway car, and promptly jumped into the drivers side window, hoping to steer the car to a stop so I could then put a punishment on the 4 occupants. (being drunk, I'd forgotten I'm not a very good fighter...) So, naturally, the guy in the back seat shanked me, leaving about an 8" gash in my right side, exposing my internals, guts...

I partied for a few hours after, regularly pouring beer into the hole to "sterilize" it. After almost passing out, I found myself being driven to the ER where a butcher clumsily sewed me shut, after pointing out several organs to the attending nurses.

But it's nice to think you wouldn't need to be sewn up like that, having for yourself the regenerative abilities of the mythical Trolls. Any chance could get a demonstration of that on video?


A. & B. With the marvels of modern science, hopefully that can be changed. Why are you advocating cessation of scientific study?
C. It seems putting a halt to A&B would put not only the animal, but the environment, water, air, and the eater at serious risk of extinction.

skratch, I don't actually believe what I posted 100%... (Edit: more like 75%, don't want to give the wrong impression)What would be the point of discussion if everyone said "I agree" to everything? I don't believe "nature" is the ultimate end all and be all of everything.

That's what Sherri's saying. But since when is being selfish, in and of itself, a bad thing? I see two different kinds of selfishness, and one of them is harmful, the other quite noble.

Objectivism is a pretty neat concept.

Edit: adding note.
re-reading what I said, I don't like the way my 100% and (75%) correction sounds. I do believe my position, but I can't use all my belief to support my opinion, so I have to resort to the limits of who I'm speaking to. Also, some points can only be observed by extreme examples, as the OP demonstrated perfectly. Like... I don't think Sherii is actually a Troll!

We meet again.

Remember that vegetarianism thread that we chatted in?
Do you remember the points I made about free range meat?

Free range does not mean that the animal is not subjected to anitbiotics, growth horomones, and other chemicals. Kosher does not mean that either. Nor do either promise the animal lead a happy life. Kosher refers to the way the animal was killed, mostly, and it isn't any less wonderful than your standard american slaughtering.

If you hunt your meat, then all the power to you. I'm still against it, but at least it's a little more natural. Even though you have a gun, so it's kind of unfair..
Hunted (I really hope) means it was born, raised, and lived a natural life in the wild. It was not subjected to horomones, antibiotics, cages (free range are still subjected to the cold steel cages... the USAD demands animals have access to the outdoors but they do not give specifics for how much space, nor how long they have to be allowed out) and all that jazz..

Really about the only place you can get a great steak is argentia they are the only country that raise only grass fed animals..........Thankyou on the kosher and free range Scratch You are a gift .........

I guesse Canada isn't a real country then because i'm pretty sure that those were cattle I sawgrazing in a field on my way to the city yesterday. I don't know about where you come from, but here the cattle are aloud to graze on grass.

WHere I live here in Ireland it is FULL of country sides...and there is a feild behind my house full of cattle


BUT and there is a but....a lot of the other feilds especially in the county armagh district....a lot of them have been bought over by builders and houses are being built on them all the time...it used to be beautiful now its all built up


I can even take pics and show you guys a lot of feilds where cattle once grazed....houses are in the process of being built......the place where I live has more than enough houses as it is but they keep over doing it and I'd dare say within the next 5 - 7 years there will hardly be a cattle feild left...its all money ££$$ these days

yea and u can get grass fed cattle in the united states too. apparently tha not a real country either but argentina one of the south american countries that do more damage rasing cattle then anywhere else apparently there cattle is fine......

Most animals graze on grass the first few weeks of life in preparation for the feedlot...after birth they are with the mother for a few weeks in a pasture,then they will be taken by truck to a feedlot, too many cattle that will of been paradise compared t what they will be enduring........


Robbie, the Us is the only country that hasn't banned the procedure of feeding dead animal remnats to animals in other words they eat each other...It was banned from cows in 97 becasue of mad cow disease, but it isn't banned from other animals, goggle that .Robbie but that doesn't account for e-coli and the various other illnesses that are meat related..of course eat what you want but you are what you eat what it eats too.....Cows that are natural herbivores are fed corn (grain) pumped full of antibiotics becasue they are so sick from the diet they eat???? Do you have any idea the disease and sickness thes animals endure???????Do you care??????I doubt if there is any organic meat.....This practice of feeding corn to cows is the light bulb moment of the gov't.......


Geri i guess the pastures are gone everywhere its so sad, not only is the planet losing its beauty but he animals are confined and taken from their natural homes...i get so sad about that....

Sheri..........If they keep doing this..and soon nearly every feild was taken over and the cattle where moved out...then what do they expect the cows to feed on???

Dont they need their cows to eat the fresh green grass?? A lot of farmers say...when their cows eat the fresh green grass...it makes the meat taste better lol

So anyhoo...lets say this does go on and on and on for many years...then what?? do the cows get fed?? If not they will die..no more cows...no more steak or milk Stupid bstds that give their feilds away

When I buy beef, like a few others said, I get it straight from the rancher. I have never had better beef than when I get the free range meat. I buy mine from individual ranchers, not from corporate farms. It isn't too hard when you live in South Dakota I guess. I can see where you're coming from living in California. Everything is corporate there.

Looks like you need to get out of California. Maybe if you saw what the rest of the country looks like you wouldn't be so negative about it. There is land almost everywhere for cattle to graze on.

haha eveyone that has told her that she basicly siad were wrong. u know like when u drive down the roads and u see hundreds and hundreds of cattle just running and grazing on grass in the fields that mean nouthing apparently. according to her argentina is the only place that does that. so when u see all these cows eating grass some how u ended up in argentina i guess.

Sheri - You're getting carried away hun
The main problem with eating the meat of animals fed biproducts, growth horomones, antibiotics, etc is that when we eat them, it effects us the same way. These animals are not necessarily sick, because they are pumped full of the antibiotics, but they are FAR from healthy. They aren't diseased however.. Or at least not the majority. They test the cattle to make sure it is alright most of the time, and while the tests are leniant, they ensure that you aren't eating mad cow, diseased, cancerous, rotting meat. (Most of the time....) The likelyness of you getting diseased from the meat you eat is unlikely. It isn't short term that you need to worry about, it's that the chemicals that get pumped into them get pumped into you. Those antibiotics will effect your immune system (and not in a positive way). The growth horomones can lead to cancer and early puberty in kids, among many other things. Might I add Escherichia Coli, like salmonella is a bacteria, not an illness, but it can be responsible for a number of diseases, mostly intestinal, gastrointestinal, and diarrheal. (mmmmm..)
Here in Ottawa we have a mixture of ways cattle are raised. While we do have cattle that graze outside, they are not healthy either. They usually get fed corn, biproducts, and bottom of the barrel hay, which usually is moulding/mildewing. Trust me, I worked with them, I know our industry. It is far from natural, however. The meat you buy in your grocery store I can almost guarantee was raised mainly indoors, and was fed all these biproducts.




Actually, farmers aren't very concerned about the quality and taste of meat. Cattle are sold by the pound, and while feeding green grass may make the meet taste better, it is easier to make their cows more "stocky" and fat by feeding them corn. Because of their added weight gain, they can sell them for more at an earlier age, and thus they make more of a profit from them. This industry is all about the money.

There is no quick fix solution to this problem. Nothing is going to happen to the industries, and nothing will happen to the cows. The suffering will continue. But I won't die happy if I support it. If you can live your life knowing you eat meat that suffered its whole life, even while being killed, and you eat it knowing that you're injesting harmful chemicals, and you eat it knowing you do it just for taste, then at least I can respect you for not being ignorant. Eat all the meat you want, but be informed.

Geri, they have solved the grass eating dilema by making cows which are herbivores into grain eateres they are fed corn, , the person that buys his meat off of a rancher that is rare there are few independent farmers left I'm talking the majority eat feedlot animals thats the original point..i have been all over the US they need the pastures that would feed an animal to grow corn, anyone who eats fast food/resturant is eating feedlot meat, to the person what is the name of the ranch you buy from , i'd like to investigate just what it is they do, do...As americans we pay for a really good story and we put our trust into these storys, Geri in 96 , this is the states, you are in another country so i don't know your laws and what not but here in america you willl not find milk that isn't contaminated regardless of its its marketed as organic or raw or ultrapasturezed, I have never given my son cows milk for just this reason( I wanted to add to that my son is as big and often bigger than most kids his age and older ) milk doesn't do a body good, not as a whole foods diet will)....Now the stores are starting to post signs 10 years later and i bet there will be a warning label on the carton just as with cigarettes..........Robbie i wish i was wrong.......

"Now the stores are strting to post signs 10 years later and i bet there will be a warning label on the carton just as with cigarettes"

Wouldn't it be great? OH MAN! The bragging priveleges I could have. I'd shove it in my friends faces for AT LEAST a year!!! Just to spite the jerks.

Anyway, I wrote this somewhere else... But they are doing tests to see if cows milk actually can cause or help cause osteoperosis (sp?)..
The same problem the milk industry has been saying it helps to prevent.

interesting, if nothing else. I can't want to see what happens 10 years down the line.
People use to think that cigarettes didn't cause cancer, one day maybe there will be an anti-meat movement, and people will see the truth that I've been researching for so long.

Ohh is that so...well funny my late grandfather was indeed concerned how healthy his cattle where...he sold his stock to butchers and slaughter houses and if the meat wasnt as lean and taste good (feedback) they went elsewhere for their live stock...I was told this...not that I personally give a damn how it works, I was just saying....unless you wanna tell me my grandfather was wrong and you know better?

Question for you Sheri...why do you continue to answer robbie?? he hasn't a clue, he says the on line expert sources are wrong and he is right?? Wouldnt you rather and feel better debating with someone (a meat eater) that KNOWS what he/she is talking about?

Scratch there are some of that feel that meat and dairy are the new tabacco.....We need a civil rights movement for our health now........

Geri it infuriates me how Industry lies covers up and they market kids like Robbie and maybe I'm just an optimist, and all humanity are my brothers and sisters and I was robbie once too and i didn't listen either fear gets ahold of you, He's a kid geri and and its not right to outright lie and mislead simple as that.....

They're called Trial Lawyers... follow the money...

I was like a Sheri once too. A long time ago.

And I see a wolrd where in 80 years, and nobody smokes, and the unintended concequences rear their ugly heads, that it will be found... the benifits of smoking.

I just don't know what to make of the hundreds and hundreds of cows I have to go through every month, out in the boondox on my way to the natural gas leases. The grasses that they eat (and wires on my solar panels)... the ranchers I talk to, and how they care/love almost to the point of inappropriateness their livestock. 15 mile stretch I have to drive 5 mph, the guy that yelled at me for driving through some cattle... he wants me to get out of the truck and shoo them rather than creep through in the truck... stupid cows.

What is the spirituality/morality of a cow?

Edit: forgot to make "rancher" plural... I talk to quite a few of them... I work with one of the top dogs of the national wool an mohair club, can't think of the name right now and she's out of office...

Sheri - You're getting carried away hun
The main problem with eating the meat of animals fed biproducts, growth horomones, antibiotics, etc is that when we eat them, it effects us the same way. These animals are not necessarily sick, because they are pumped full of the antibiotics, but they are FAR from healthy. They aren't diseased however..


Possibly canada has much better standards then we do......I agree throw in antibiotics and all the other stuff and meat isn't the great source of protien that its touted.....
I deepy apologize to all the animal lovers at are about to read this:
Scratch the truth is a animal that is feed grain isn't gonna have any measure of health after about 150 days, their systems can't handle it, the first thing that happens is they bloat remember the rumen i mentioned , the corn produces a horrendous amount of gas in the rumen which would normally be released through belching by runminatioin, but there diets contain way too much starch and not enough roughage and the rumen inflates like a balloon and a foamy slime forms and that traps the gas until it presses against the animals lungs, unless action is taken immediatlely the animal will suffocate, (the action usually taken is a hose forced down the animals esophogas to release the gas....)


also a concentrated diet of corn can give an animal acidosis, a cows rumen is neutral unlike ours which is acid , corn is acidic and it creates a kind of heartburn that can kill the animal, but it ususally makes them sick ..Acidotic animals go off their feed, pant and salivate excessively, paw and scratch their bellies and eat dirt..This often leads to diarreah, ulcers, bloat, rumentitis,liver disease, and general weaking of the immune sytem that leaves the animal at peril for a myriad of feedlot disease such as pneumonia, coccidiosis, enterotoxemia, feedlot polio...Just like humans animals are susceptatble to all sorts of disease too.....more often than not this diet blows out there livers, over time the acid eats throught he rumen wall and the bacterias enter the animals blood stream, these microbes end up in the liver which impairs the livers funtions...So you see scratch antiobiotics are needed for some semblence of kindness to these animals.....I wish i was getting carried away We may define diseased differently......

Celum i am speaking of FEEDLOT animals which supplies the most meat, there are only so many huge corporations a handfull that run the show......ALL animals dine on grass for a short time, in preperation for feedlot...not to say there aren't some ranchers left ...As i said we all want to buy a really good story, its comfroting...... half of the Us's dairy comes from idaho from "organic horizions" which is the microsoft of milk anyone from idaho????It milks several thousands of cows thousands, you would need at a least an acre of grass per animal and more hours iin a day to move these cows all the way to these distant acres and then back again to the milking parlor every morning and evening..the truth is they are walking around on dirt feedlots eating corn being milked three times a day being monitiered becasue they arent' using antibiotics...cows only need this sort of survelliance that arent' given antibiotics.....anyone live near or use a whole foods next time look at the beautiful pictures of their cows they even name them but its feedlot......

OKay Sheri...but it's much easier to debate with someone who is actually going to pay attention and hear you out..without calling you a .......what was it again??? Ohh yes...a hippie!!

I agree, no tree hugger, protien deficient, vegan propagandist lol but come on that justs shows ones ignorance........with the exception of you and a few other resepctful ones that often dosen't cross my path on this thread....... I'm honored to be called a hippie i actually wish I had been around during those days.....My favorite uncle and his then live in girl (in the days of you don't do that) I loved them and learned so much from them.......thankyou for caring about me friend....... .

I was saying it, because you are intelligent..and when you spend your free time debating with a person who has no idea what you are talking about, and couldn't care less to listen to you..even though you have read his/her side of things and fed your own opinions...you may as well talk to a brick wall....there are other meat loving folks on here who will debate with you and be smart about it...but you get that one person that wont and yes of course I care lol

The only problem i have sometimes with your posts Sherri Berri is that you can get quite edgy and titchy if someone disagrees with you. i have noticed this with some of your previous posts you have stated that we are all wrong and what you are saying is completly right etc etc (and i'm not the only one who agrees with this) no hard feelings just thought id tell you the truth on what i thought

no but sit there there and make it soudn like all the famers in the entire world got together one day except for the ones in argentina to make evil cow meat that will give eveyone cancer. there are definalty places you can get grass raised cattle from in the U.S.

OMG we better watch out! lol

ALL the cows here are Grass raised so that's a load of BS

kahrie I'm not concerned with a bunch of opinions of me, I'm not into the herd peer pressure mentality..... what would it based on how well you jnow me or how often we hang out ha hahahahah ???? What ever tithy or edgy ness you percieve has nothing to do with me thats what you think...I put out information, its up to you or anyone else what they chose to beleive or not.....

karhie I'm not offended by YOUR opinnon, I don't need you or anyone else to 'get me''''lol we are talking serious issues here i'm interested in that .........so far i've heard this is bull sh** about 2 or three times???? I'm totatly interested in your findings its not a debate that you saw a cow grazing, do you have a link any other info...all cows graze for a time before they go to a feed lot .......this is a serious subject to me thats waht I'm interested in the care of animals and if they are mistreated in any way I want to know about it, its not okay and thats that.......

Do you read what you have posted? See you haven't paid attention, it was ME that stated about too much (key words there too much) red meat can cause cancer and it was ME that provided the links....guess what? you didn't care to look at any expert advice shown, and yet when it suits you , there you go and create threads with info posted on line about ADHD, so you pick and choose what you want to believe and others to read up on at your own desire, and you haven't the nerve to go out and ask your own doctor if there are any health risks in eating too much read meat...so you don't have a leg to stand on

To learn more fascinating info about Robbieb's state of mind....just see my quote. I stole it from him, not wanting America to ever be unsure of his state of mind...

I know I saw that LOL...it's hard to understand him when he types most of his words in text speak, which UM does not allow

Meat still tastes good...so I eat it Plus, its cows...Other animals...presumably animals that are endangered, I would have a problem with.

Plus, I catch a lot of the meat I eat...Mmmmmmmm fish.

Could you tell us more on how you catch your own meat?

Fishing, BM

Noo LOL I know you love to go fishing...I was talking about your own kill....by reading it, I figured you went hunting too??? So I was wondering where you went, what you like to hunt ect...Its when you mentioned your own kill and meat in the same sentence...it threw me off. A lot will say fish is not meat and then there are those that will say it is..

LOL, I meant fishing.

A born fisherman...if you catch any good salmon...send it this way LOL...In fact if you have caught any large salmon...show the pics I for one would like to see them

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum...pic=52501&st=60

Post 72

Fish is very yummy!!! Now you guys have gone and done it!! I'm starving!

Awsome Frog fish...you could earn a good living catching fish and selling thenm to markets..I am serious...

Ohh how I would love some smoked salmon right now

I love meat and fish...but I am weird, I'll eat it..but I couldnt bare to watch an animal being killed or a fish being gutted out ewwww...I am a lil squeamish LOL but I will eat the meat and fish..I just dont think about how they got to be on my plate

I think I would earn more being a proffessional B.A.S.S Elite Series angler

I think I would earn more being a proffessional B.A.S.S Elite Series angler