Keira
Jun 20 2006, 05:42 PM
Something really freaky happened to me and my sister last night. I wanted to use a Ouija board, but i didn't want to do it on my own, so i asked my sister (my sisters like a breeding ground for the paranormal, it seemed like a good idea at the time.) It started off ok, we contacted "something" and it was fun, we were going through through the whole "your moving it" "no, your moving it!" routine and we were just having a laugh really. Anyway, after a while the spirit just stopped talking and nothing happened. So we thought that we should just say goodbye and leave. But then my sister just started shaking. I was like, "are you ok?" but she wasen't listening, she was just shaking and crying and it was so scary. In the end i just dragged my sister out of the room and left the board how it was. She was ok, she stopped shaking and just looked at me funny. I asked her what had happened and she just said she didn't know. It was weird.
I had to get my dad to pack away the board, i wasen't about to go anywhere near it. But i'm worried, because i never said goodbye.
Maybe this seems stupid and unbelieveable to you, but you have to understand that i don't normaly believe in things like this, so it just as weird for me.
Does anyone have any ideas for what might have happened?
chaoszerg
Jun 20 2006, 05:53 PM
If you make a mistake then a bad spirit or demon can come through and do harm. Or the spirit you were talking too probably found offence of you both giggling and laughing about who was moving the glass and decided to do something bad i dont know but apparently if you make a mistake or mishap a bad spirit can come and do some damage.
Sweetpumper
Jun 20 2006, 05:55 PM
You mess around with stuff like that and you're gonna have to face the consequences. And they're usually gonna be bad. Why people even consider doing this is beyond me.
chaoszerg
Jun 20 2006, 06:01 PM
Yes i have a fear of those boards and don't ever want to mess around with trying to talk to the dead. In my opinion its not the greatest idea in the world of things to do and they might get offended if its someone trying to have some fun with it. Sorry i hope that did not come off as if i was thinking you were being silly. I just mean it's not a great idea to mess with something like that.
the_sasquatch_hunter
Jun 20 2006, 06:08 PM
I've never had any remote interest in the Ouija Board phenomenon but if you are telling the truth, it seems as though you may definately have achieved some kind of contact. If I was you I wouldn't try it again and in future be a little more apprehensive when embarking on potentially dangerous experiments or related activities. I'm aware of the mysteries and 'myths' surrounding the subject and it's all a little too spooky for me so just be careful, Keira.
Best wishes,
Lee
the_sasquatch_hunter
Jun 20 2006, 06:10 PM
Sorry, double post.
KB8
Jun 20 2006, 07:07 PM
I broke my freinds over my knee because it really freaked me out. There were like 12 of us in a dark room playin with this thing and I freaked lol.
coldethyl
Jun 20 2006, 07:19 PM
Well I don't believe the Ouija's any different than playing with Monopoly. IMO you're just reading subconscious cues and not talking to the dead at all. Sounds like she just got spooked to me. I wouldn't worry about it, but if it freaks her out that badly, don't do it again.
chaoszerg
Jun 20 2006, 08:03 PM
QUOTE(coldethyl @ Jun 20 2006, 08:19 PM) [snapback]1239054[/snapback]
Well I don't believe the Ouija's any different than playing with Monopoly. IMO you're just reading subconscious cues and not talking to the dead at all. Sounds like she just got spooked to me. I wouldn't worry about it, but if it freaks her out that badly, don't do it again.

you do realise if you stick a hotel on the ouija board you will have a haunted hotel you might be able to make more money on it when people land on it......oh sorry lets get back on topic lol
my advice
dont try it again. Your friend or yourself could have been hurt.
_CoNspIracY_
Jun 20 2006, 08:08 PM
Yes, I agree with chaoszerg and sweetpumper, just don't mess around with that stuff, you may have upsetted the spirit you had contact with, giggling and laughing at it, not even believing it was there, as we know ghosts are just humans ( or animals ) coming back in a dif. form. So imagine, it would be pretty serious loosing your life, and your probably trying to contact people in your "ghost form", and when you finally reach someone, they laugh and giggle not taking it serious. So there, I believe what you experienced was just an upset spirit, I know quite a bit on demons, but that didn't all sound like one, unless your holding back some of the details. Anyways, good luck, hope your sis is OK
Lady_Anvilabeel
Jun 20 2006, 08:09 PM
QUOTE(Keira @ Jun 20 2006, 06:42 PM) [snapback]1238943[/snapback]
Something really freaky happened to me and my sister last night. I wanted to use a Ouija board, but i didn't want to do it on my own, so i asked my sister (my sisters like a breeding ground for the paranormal, it seemed like a good idea at the time.) It started off ok, we contacted "something" and it was fun, we were going through through the whole "your moving it" "no, your moving it!" routine and we were just having a laugh really. Anyway, after a while the spirit just stopped talking and nothing happened. So we thought that we should just say goodbye and leave. But then my sister just started shaking. I was like, "are you ok?" but she wasen't listening, she was just shaking and crying and it was so scary. In the end i just dragged my sister out of the room and left the board how it was. She was ok, she stopped shaking and just looked at me funny. I asked her what had happened and she just said she didn't know. It was weird.
I had to get my dad to pack away the board, i wasen't about to go anywhere near it. But i'm worried, because i never said goodbye.
Maybe this seems stupid and unbelieveable to you, but you have to understand that i don't normaly believe in things like this, so it just as weird for me.
Does anyone have any ideas for what might have happened?
Sounds like to me that something materlised and came in too close to your sisters energy field which resulted in your sister channeling the emotions of whatever it was. Just another way for spirit to communicate rather than pushing a glass around

I wouldn't advise playing with ouji boards unless you have some concept of how the spirit world works, ie protection, opening/closing, grounding and knowing how to keep it 'safe' how to deal with things if they get rowdy without getting scared or freaked out.
You did the right thing in saying goodbye and then getting your sister out of the enviorment and energy of whatever spirit was present. Please don't worry about possession or evil spirits or anything. If you need peace of mind just take a quiet moment and picture a bright white ball of light come down to encase you, ask that it protects you. Ask that the spirit you came in contact with goes back to where it belongs in peace if it hasn't done so already.
coldethyl
Jun 21 2006, 12:53 AM
QUOTE(chaoszerg @ Jun 20 2006, 03:03 PM) [snapback]1239113[/snapback]
you do realise if you stick a hotel on the ouija board you will have a haunted hotel you might be able to make more money on it when people land on it......oh sorry lets get back on topic lol

Haunted hotel...classic...
QUOTE(Anvil @ Jun 20 2006, 03:09 PM) [snapback]1239123[/snapback]
If you need peace of mind just take a quiet moment and picture a bright white ball of light come down to encase you, ask that it protects you.
Even though I am not a Ouija believer I do believe that this is good advice and it will help!
frogfish
Jun 21 2006, 02:14 AM
QUOTE
Well I don't believe the Ouija's any different than playing with Monopoly. IMO you're just reading subconscious cues and not talking to the dead at all. Sounds like she just got spooked to me. I wouldn't worry about it, but if it freaks her out that badly, don't do it again

It's all in your head. Its nothing more than some mumbo jumbo.
Ken-Ken
Jun 21 2006, 04:12 AM
Where can you get a Ouija (ignore if it's incorrect spelling) board?
chaoszerg
Jun 21 2006, 08:54 AM
QUOTE(Ken-Ken @ Jun 21 2006, 05:12 AM) [snapback]1239692[/snapback]
Where can you get a Ouija (ignore if it's incorrect spelling) board?
Lol i take it you are gonna ignore all advice that was just given on here
or ignore what just happened to keira and her sister
Lol when you get one i suspect we will see you on here telling your tale of how your behind got kicked
Im not sure where you can get proper ones i think you can make your own.
or here is a link to some online shops
http://www.spiritadventures.co.uk/cgi-bin/...ef=ouija_boardshttp://www.pagandreams.co.uk/default.aspx?...CFStUEAodfVMwjQhttp://www.ghostvillage.com/legends/2002/l..._10052002.shtml
coldethyl
Jun 21 2006, 01:41 PM
QUOTE(Ken-Ken @ Jun 20 2006, 11:12 PM) [snapback]1239692[/snapback]
Where can you get a Ouija (ignore if it's incorrect spelling) board?
Toys R Us sells them.
Evil satanic devices sold at the toystore.
Well, they also sell Furby's so I guess that's true.....
chaoszerg
Jun 21 2006, 03:42 PM
Yes hasbro make them lol for kids
imagine xmas day you open your present and there it is the ouiji board from hasbro.
WOW!!!! thanks mom and dad i have always wanted one of these...forget a power ranger toy or a transformer and move over action man im gonna play with my ouiji board and CONTACT THE DEAD!!! YAY!!!its the best xmas present ever!!!
well done hasbro for putting children in harms way lol you nut job's
_CoNspIracY_
Jun 21 2006, 05:24 PM
LOL!
And yes Toys R Us sells some kind of ouijas as I remember, that is pretty evil.
Ouijas + kids = chaos.
Furby + Toys R Us = Oblivion.
I am not going near an ouija board ever! I just don't mess with those things knowing a evil spirit cam follow you out.
coldethyl
Jun 21 2006, 05:47 PM
QUOTE(chaoszerg @ Jun 21 2006, 10:42 AM) [snapback]1240181[/snapback]
Yes hasbro make them lol for kids
imagine xmas day you open your present and there it is the ouiji board from hasbro.
Yours is on it's way...
QUOTE(_CoNspIracY_ @ Jun 21 2006, 12:24 PM) [snapback]1240343[/snapback]
Furby + Toys R Us = Oblivion.
I'd rather have a Ouija than a useless Furby anyday!!
_CoNspIracY_
Jun 21 2006, 08:22 PM
QUOTE(coldethyl @ Jun 21 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]1240376[/snapback]
Yours is on it's way...
I'd rather have a Ouija than a useless Furby anyday!!

Their not useles... I heard they devour you at night
Still, I don't know why, but that toy gives me the chills.
chaoszerg
Jun 21 2006, 09:03 PM
How is your sister now keira?
Keira
Jun 22 2006, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the feed back guys.
Chaoszerg,my sister is fine. Well, at least she is, cos i know i'm still freaked out! The only thing thats odd is thatshe refuses to go into my bedroom, but that makes, seeing at thats were it happened.
KB8
Jun 22 2006, 05:21 PM
What if she gets possesed now!

lol
Swbf2
Jun 24 2006, 03:01 PM
DO NOT USE A WHATEVER BOARD
my grandmothers friend at a party tried to use one to contact there grandmother and thay got an evil spirit and it followed them around, they moved and it followed them, and it tryed to posses there daughter ,so they got there house blessed and now its gone.
DO NOT USE ONE UNLESS YOU KNOW HOW TO USE ONE ( most people dont)
im not going into details becuse whenever i rember it, it gives me the chills, like right now
skycaptainv1
Jun 25 2006, 06:21 PM
QUOTE(coldethyl @ Jun 21 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]1240376[/snapback]
Yours is on it's way...
I'd rather have a Ouija than a useless Furby anyday!!

You must be kidding.
Baal
Jun 26 2006, 03:32 AM
Baal
Jun 26 2006, 03:36 AM
also if you don't mind i would like to say something about possesed people. Its not real. Watch the national geographic episode about it. The guy runs fake "healing" events on perpose to expose the lieing children and to show its just fake. Please really see this episode you will easyly see its just fake
Sweetpumper
Jun 26 2006, 03:55 PM
QUOTE(Baal @ Jun 26 2006, 03:36 AM) [snapback]1245787[/snapback]
also if you don't mind i would like to say something about possesed people. Its not real. Watch the national geographic episode about it.
Oh, okay. Thank goodness National Geographic cleared all that up for us. Now, could they do an episode about the abduction phenomenon? We need to know if that's true or not because so many here believe it is. As soon as they do that show, we'll all know the truth and we can close up this forum for good.
coldethyl
Jun 26 2006, 04:26 PM
QUOTE(skycaptainv1 @ Jun 25 2006, 01:21 PM) [snapback]1245253[/snapback]
You must be kidding.

Nope. I'd rather have a Ouija than a Furby anyday. At least I could use the Ouija like a tv tray. Only thing I could do with a Furby is toss it at people.
RamboIII
Jun 26 2006, 04:41 PM
Here's the problem. Your sister got freaked out because she convinced herself that it was all true and she was afraid of what might possibly happen. Like Frogfish said, it's all in your head. As for you, do not be afraid that you didn't say good-bye. You will be taunted by your imagination if you think some spirit is following you. If Ouija Boards are sold at Toys R Us, then their purpose is to entertain. Well guess what, scary movies entertain and freak people out, too.
Just tell yourself that it isn't true because part of me believes that you want it to be true because you think it's pretty cool.

Trust me, you tell your sister (and convince yourself) that it was all just a load of you know what, then everything will be just fine.
chaoszerg
Jun 26 2006, 05:01 PM
QUOTE(RamboIII @ Jun 26 2006, 05:41 PM) [snapback]1246493[/snapback]
You will be taunted by your imagination
And you will be taunted by skeptics and debunkers too
missknowitall
Jul 1 2006, 01:19 AM
well ouiga(sp?) boards can get freaky at times. when my friends and i started playing with one it ws all good and fun until someone asked what the persons name was that was answering us..it spelled out demon , so we prettymuch got away from the board as possible...dont mess with those things, i mean you never know relly know WHO says that stuff!!!
Baal
Jul 1 2006, 04:40 AM
The boards are all in your heads. If you are seeing things fly or people talk man get some help from a doctor.
Also skeptics are usually the smarter people. People who believe in religion are mostly the ones to believe in these things. Tell me why I don't see anything and i can be on the board all night long. I know maybe because I don't believe in crazy myths and the same should you it will drive you mad if you aren't already
Eurodancer
Jul 1 2006, 08:07 PM
Keira said, "I had to get my dad to pack away the board, i wasen't about to go anywhere near it. But i'm worried, because i never said goodbye."
It is bad that you didn't say goodbye, but it is better and safer to stay away from the board since you seem to have invoked evil spirits. Also, it is a good thing that your dad packed away the board but THIS IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!! What happens when after you leave the house someone else moves in and finds the board and starts using it? No, no, the board must be hid in a place where NO ONE will be able to find it so no more harm comes to anybody. The brave people who used the Jumanji have taught us that important lesson. That you need to hide the board so no one ever finds it which was the moral of the movie Jumanji which I think was based on a true story. You saw what happened in that movie. Please, for the love of God, DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!!!!!! Also, please think of the children!
Lady_Anvilabeel
Jul 1 2006, 08:41 PM
QUOTE(Tiger23 @ Jul 1 2006, 09:07 PM) [snapback]1254242[/snapback]
Keira said, "I had to get my dad to pack away the board, i wasen't about to go anywhere near it. But i'm worried, because i never said goodbye."
It is bad that you didn't say goodbye, but it is better and safer to stay away from the board since you seem to have invoked evil spirits. Also, it is a good thing that your dad packed away the board but THIS IS NOT ENOUGH!!!!!!! What happens when after you leave the house someone else moves in and finds the board and starts using it? No, no, the board must be hid in a place where NO ONE will be able to find it so no more harm comes to anybody. The brave people who used the Jumanji have taught us that important lesson. That you need to hide the board so no one ever finds it which was the moral of the movie Jumanji which I think was based on a true story. You saw what happened in that movie. Please, for the love of God, DON'T LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN!!!!!!!!! Also, please think of the children!
Oh for crying out loud, enough of the hystericals please!!!!!!!
What evidence is there here that anything evil happend or was evoked???? Please show me where you get that from Tiger because I've read the same account and can't see it.
As for Juumanji, i think its better to leave the movies out of this.....
Eurodancer
Jul 1 2006, 08:46 PM
QUOTE(Anvil @ Jul 1 2006, 01:41 PM) [snapback]1254280[/snapback]
Oh for crying out loud, enough of the hystericals please!!!!!!!
What evidence is there here that anything evil happend or was evoked???? Please show me where you get that from Tiger because I've read the same account and can't see it.
The only evidence I have is what Keira has told us and I tend to believe people when they say something. Also, it wasn't just one person who experienced it but TWO, Keira and her sister. Also, other people in this post have recommended staying away from the board so they must have experienced same thing themselves.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Jul 1 2006, 09:02 PM
QUOTE(Tiger23 @ Jul 1 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1254288[/snapback]
The only evidence I have is what Keira has told us and I tend to believe people when they say something. Also, it wasn't just one person who experienced it but TWO, Keira and her sister. Also, other people in this post have recommended staying away from the board so they must have experienced same thing themselves.
So you believe Santa was real when your parents told you. So you believe you are getting a good deal because a used car salesman is telling you so.
Eurodancer
Jul 1 2006, 09:13 PM
QUOTE(ericraven2003 @ Jul 1 2006, 02:02 PM) [snapback]1254317[/snapback]
So you believe Santa was real when your parents told you. So you believe you are getting a good deal because a used car salesman is telling you so.
I did believe in Santa when my parents told me when I was too young to understand that this wasn't a fact. When you don't have experience with buying cars, I have to believe the salesman if he says it's a good deal. If you have experience, then you can make that decision yourself. In this case, I have zero experience with Ouija boards so I have to trust the people who say that they experience spooky stuff.
rhyknow
Jul 1 2006, 09:50 PM
QUOTE(Keira @ Jun 20 2006, 07:42 PM) [snapback]1238943[/snapback]
Something really freaky happened to me and my sister last night. I wanted to use a Ouija board, but i didn't want to do it on my own, so i asked my sister (my sisters like a breeding ground for the paranormal, it seemed like a good idea at the time.) It started off ok, we contacted "something" and it was fun, we were going through through the whole "your moving it" "no, your moving it!" routine and we were just having a laugh really. Anyway, after a while the spirit just stopped talking and nothing happened. So we thought that we should just say goodbye and leave. But then my sister just started shaking. I was like, "are you ok?" but she wasen't listening, she was just shaking and crying and it was so scary. In the end i just dragged my sister out of the room and left the board how it was. She was ok, she stopped shaking and just looked at me funny. I asked her what had happened and she just said she didn't know. It was weird.
I had to get my dad to pack away the board, i wasen't about to go anywhere near it. But i'm worried, because i never said goodbye.
Maybe this seems stupid and unbelieveable to you, but you have to understand that i don't normaly believe in things like this, so it just as weird for me.
Does anyone have any ideas for what might have happened?
Keira... this is advice coming from a friend...
Nothing good can come from a ouija board. I know noone can stop you from using them, so i'll just say if you are... for the love of God please make sure someone is there who knows what they are doing! Beleive me, i've seen what happens when a session goes wrong.
The Skeptic Eric Raven
Jul 1 2006, 10:02 PM
QUOTE(Tiger23 @ Jul 1 2006, 04:13 PM) [snapback]1254328[/snapback]
I did believe in Santa when my parents told me when I was too young to understand that this wasn't a fact. When you don't have experience with buying cars, I have to believe the salesman if he says it's a good deal. If you have experience, then you can make that decision yourself. In this case, I have zero experience with Ouija boards so I have to trust the people who say that they experience spooky stuff.
You got to remember that people like to make up stories.
Lady_Anvilabeel
Jul 2 2006, 12:06 AM
QUOTE
The only evidence I have is what Keira has told us and I tend to believe people when they say something. Also, it wasn't just one person who experienced it but TWO, Keira and her sister. Also, other people in this post have recommended staying away from the board so they must have experienced same thing themselves.
Yes I gathered that much as well. But what is exactly evil about what happened? because you seemed pretty sure the OP had evoked something evil. I don't see any evidence of that.
Like I said in my first reply to this thread what happened was deep and probaly the last thing they expected to happen but if a spirit comes in close and you're receptive/open then feeling and sensing any condition the spirit is projecting is just another way for them to make contact. Obviously the spirit was distressed and unhappy and looking for help...As far as the poor spirit is concerned it thinks it has somebody willing to comunicate... Now none of that makes it evil, it was extreme yes but not evil.
QUOTE
In this case, I have zero experience with Ouija boards so I have to trust the people who say that they experience spooky stuff.
Then why are you offering advise about something you don't have a clue about??? It's advise like yours about evoking evil this or that and using horror movies as examples to back your thoughts up that are more damaging and scare mongering than anything else. How was the OP to know that you really didn't have a clue about this subject? I really don't think necessery, people that post for advise about their experiences are often already in a anxious state and they don't need to hear anything that will add to that.
I have a lot of experience and it's why I'm nit picking your post

The best advise when it comes to this is not to mess with oujia boards at all unless you know and understand how the spirit world works or you're with somebody that does. Surely the spirits themselfs deserve some respect and expect that who they chose to comunicate with is serious and able to help them.
Eurodancer
Jul 2 2006, 07:31 AM
QUOTE(Anvil @ Jul 1 2006, 05:06 PM) [snapback]1254444[/snapback]
It's advise like yours about evoking evil this or that and using horror movies as examples to back your thoughts up that are more damaging and scare mongering than anything else. How was the OP to know that you really didn't have a clue about this subject? I really don't think necessery, people that post for advise about their experiences are often already in a anxious state and they don't need to hear anything that will add to that.
Hi. I guess I didn't realize that the people who post these stories actually do really take them seriously. It's a good thing that you pointed this out. Otherwise, I would've continued posting using same logic. When I posted my first response to this post, I thought that she was just a somewhat scared and not really seriously terrified like you say she is. My whole point of the post was to prevent her from using Ouija board again, so she doesn't get scared anymore. Now I understand that the approach and wording that I have used to achieve that goal were probably more detrimental than useful. But if you're saying that these people really ARE terrified , then I need to use different method of persuasion.
ericraven2003 in the previous post said "You got to remember that people like to make up stories."
This is how I viewed the posts by these people when I replied to them.
TO KEIRA: if you're reading this and you really are worried and not just making up stories then my previous reply to your post was not honest or real. I was writing that post for entertainment, I have no experience in Ouija boards and all the facts in my post were made up. If you really are scared then I suggest you research the topic of Ouija boards on the Internet written by skeptics. If you want I can give you links to some of the sites. Of course, I will have to search for them first. However, if you really believe in evil Ouija boards, then I will gladly spend my time doing research for you if it helps you in any way.
Lady_Anvilabeel
Jul 2 2006, 12:52 PM
Tiger I'm sure you mean well

but just don't present your posts as fact and gospel truths. Make it clear that it's just your opinion, your own thoughts and with doing that there's no reason why you can't then reffer to movies if you want to.
~Onyx~
Jul 3 2006, 07:28 PM
QUOTE
TO KEIRA: if you're reading this and you really are worried and not just making up stories then my previous reply to your post was not honest or real. I was writing that post for entertainment, I have no experience in Ouija boards and all the facts in my post were made up. If you really are scared then I suggest you research the topic of Ouija boards on the Internet written by skeptics. If you want I can give you links to some of the sites. Of course, I will have to search for them first. However, if you really believe in evil Ouija boards, then I will gladly spend my time doing research for you if it helps you in any way.
If this isn't an inditement as to the difference between perception and reality I don't know what is.....that was a petty and immature thing to do.
Pappzy
Jul 4 2006, 05:18 PM
BURN THE BOARD!
rob lester
Jul 4 2006, 05:26 PM
OUJI board....How about just opening word pad , or notepad....Leave the keyboard alone and ask questions there...I do not get it.Something allways has to have human hands touching it for it to move.It is blatantly obvious the human mind ( knowingly or not ) can do strange things , including moving a plastic toy on a cardboard slate.....
coldethyl
Jul 5 2006, 09:21 PM
Next time play Monopoly. Less trouble.
Tooth_and_Claw
Jul 8 2006, 12:13 PM
i heard it u dont say goodbye then the spirt staysin ur house but im not sure..........
coldethyl
Jul 10 2006, 03:21 PM
QUOTE(tooth_and_claw @ Jul 8 2006, 07:13 AM) [snapback]1262090[/snapback]
i heard it u dont say goodbye then the spirt staysin ur house but im not sure..........

That is one of the myths surrounding the Ouija board.
~Onyx~
Jul 10 2006, 09:46 PM
QUOTE(tooth_and_claw @ Jul 8 2006, 08:13 AM) [snapback]1262090[/snapback]
i heard it u dont say goodbye then the spirt staysin ur house but im not sure..........

I was always told to never use one of those boards from the time I was old enough to understand my parents.....why?......I have no idea.....I was also told not to have sex before marriage.....

....flunked-out there as well, lol.
I myself have never used a Ouija board but it would seem to reason(there's that silly word again) that if they sell the same exact board ALL OVER THE DAMN PLACE that there would be nothing special about it. I mean what would the difference be? you can purchase one with or without "the demon chip" in it? Any and all phenomenon experienced while using the board is either psychosomatic or out and out hoaxed IMO.....until I experience anything to the contrary that is.
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