If there are flying saucers beyond a doubt, then why is there no credible evidence of this? Surely governments, other than the American one, would have knowledge of these saucers and they may not wish to "cover it up". Or are you suggesting that all evidence pertaining to flying saucers has its findings limited to only governments that wish to cover it up? A coincidence that would deserve its paradoxical name.

Again, I think you need to apply Occam's razor, The simplest explanation is probably the correct one. Did you see a flying saucer, piloted by advanced beings, whom appear different to everyone that sees them, who may have traveled hundreds of thousands of light years to get here and only reveal themselves to only a select group of people, the majority of whom are rather unimportant individuals in the grander schemes of things.

or...

Did you see something you simply did not understand.

Focusing on the UFOs in question, they are very real and not ours, and there are scientist, engineers, commercial and military pilots, senior military officers and enlisted personnel, astronauts and cosmonauts, police officials, air traffic and radar controllers who will concur with that assessment. Should I mention astronomers as well?

Astronomers and UFOs

http://www.xdream.freeserve.co.uk/UFOBase/Astronomers.htm



How many volcanos are located around Washington D.C.?

http://ufologie.net/htm/usa1952.htm

http://www.project1947.com/fig/1952d.htm

http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc823.htm

LIFE Magazine, August 4, 1952, page 39-40



In the case of UFOs, we are not referring to demons nor angels, I'll leave that to the UFO debunkers. I would like to discuss the UFOs that were described as metallic, saucer-shaped artificial flying objects by commercial and military pilots whose encounters were confirmed by air traffic and radar controllers. BTW, while the Air Force was busy providing one story on UFOs for public consumption, the Air Force was busy telling its cadets to take UFOs seriously.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<^>

INTRODUCTORY SPACE SCIENCE - VOLUME II
CHAPTER ***III
UNIDENTIFIED FLYING OBJECTS
DEPARTMENT OF PHYSICS - USAF
UNITED STATES AIR FORCE ACADEMY

"We too have fired on UFO's. About ten o'clock one morning, a radar site near a fighter base picked up a UFO doing 700 mph. The UFO then slowed to 100 mph, and two F-86's were scrambled to intercept. Eventually one F-86 closed on the UFO at about 3,000 feet altitude. The UFO began to accelerate away but the pilot still managed to get within 500 yards of the target for a short period of time. It was definitely saucer-shaped. As the pilot pushed the F-86 at top speed, the UFO began to pull away. When the range reached 1,000 yards, the pilot armed his guns and fired in an attempt to down the saucer. He failed, and the UFO pulled away rapidly, vanishing in the distance."

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------<^>

I didn't see any mention of demons nor angels in regards to that UFO encounter, but I was aware that the pilot who fired upon that 'flying saucer' took a serious verbal beating from his squadron commander afterwards.

Thanks!!

Washington D.C. is not considered a flight test zone for secret aircraft. We use Special Use Airpace (SUA) in certain areas. What cover story did the government have for the U-2? The U-2 was explained away as a high-altitude weather aircraft, not a UFO and when secrets crash, they are explained away as a conventional aircraft, not a UFO. it was clear that the Belgian UFO was not a secret aircraft of the military and even UFO debunker, Phil Klass, would have agreed with me on that fact.
_______________________________________________________________________________

U-2 Passed Off As Weather Research Aircraft, Not As A UFO

7 May 1956
- NACA Director Dr. Hugh L. Dryden issues a press release stating that U-2 aircraft are conducting weather research for NACA with Air Force support from Watertown, Nevada.


22 May 1956
- A second press release is issued with cover story for U-2 aircraft operating overseas.


1 May 1960
- Francis Gary Powers is shot down near Sverdlovsk.


6 May 1960
- U-2 with fictitious NASA serial number and NASA markings is shown to news media to bolster cover story of NASA weather research flights with U-2.


7 May 1960
- Soviet Premier Kruschev announces capture and confession of Powers.


1960
- Dr. Hugh L. Dryden tells senate committee that some 200 U-2 flights carrying NASA weather instrumentation have taken place since 1956.
______________________________________________________________________________




The govenment cover-up in respect to UFOs has already been proven, and done so beyond any doubt.



It's not their fault! You only have to go back to the broadcast of the "War of the Worlds" program by Orson Wells in 1938. Thousands of people panicked across the nation, and the 1960 Brookings Institution's report to NASA didn't help matters either.


BROOKING INSTITUTION'S REPORT TO NASA
SPACE-LIFE REPORT COULD BE SHOCK, UFOI, Vol. I, No. II (Dec 1960 - Jan 1961 issue)

"The discovery of intelligent space beings could have a severe effect on the public, according to a research report released by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. The report warned that America should prepare to meet the psychological impact of such a revelation."

"The 190-page report was the result of a $96,000 one-year study conducted by the Brookings Institution for NASA's long-range study committee."

Public realization that intelligent beings live on other planets could bring about profound changes, or even the collapse of our civilization, the research report stated.


"Societies sure of their own place have disintegrated when confronted by a superior society," said the NASA report. "Others have survived even though changed. Clearly, the better we can come to understand the factors involved in responding to such crises the better prepared we may be."


WAR OF THE WORLDSRadio Listeners in Panic, Taking War Drama as Fact
Many Flee Homes to Escape 'Gas Raid From Mars'--Phone Calls Swamp Police at Broadcast of Wells Fantasy
This article appeared in the New York Times on Oct. 31, 1938.

"A wave of mass hysteria seized thousands of radio listeners between 8:15 and 9:30 o'clock last night when a broadcast of a dramatization of H. G. Wells's fantasy, "The War of the Worlds," led thousands to believe that an interplanetary conflict had started with invading Martians spreading wide death and destruction in New Jersey and New York."

"The broadcast, which disrupted households, interrupted religious services, created traffic jams and clogged communications systems, was made by Orson Welles, who as the radio character, "The Shadow," used to give "the creeps" to countless child listeners. This time at least a score of adults required medical treatment for shock and hysteria."

"In Newark, in a single block at Heddon Terrace and Hawthorne Avenue, more than twenty families rushed out of their houses with wet handkerchiefs and towels over their faces to flee from what they believed was to be a gas raid. Some began moving household furniture."

?Throughout New York families left their homes, some to flee to near-by parks. Thousands of persons called the police, newspapers and radio stations here and in other cities of the United States and Canada seeking advice on protective measures against the raids."



You haven't! You have exposed weaknesses in the 'logic of thinking' in regards to the mindset of many scientist.

Let's look how things are done in the real world of secret aircraft test flights. You will note that secret aircraft were not passed off as UFOs, but of conventional aircraft. As a scientist, you are suppose to take measures so as to not be so careless with the facts.


When Secrets Crash

http://www.afa.org/magazine/july2001/0701secrets.asp

You pretty much know my take on this phenomenon camlax, so i don't want to drag this out but as you stated that you are a scientist with two master's degrees one in Physics the other in Astronautical Engineering, have Ph.D., Physics and are currently on your second post doc(impressive) yet you seem quite convinced that life may or may not exist outside this world...even with my skeptical yet slightly open minded to the unknown way of thinking, isn't that kind of a narrow/closed minded way of looking at it as a scientist(with respect)considering the vastness/diversity of the universe. When you take into consideration also that there have been so many great scientists in the past that state and risk their reputation(life's long work)that life(intelligent and maybe not so intelligent) exits outside our own planet?.....man that was a long question(I see what you mean now Lilly LOL!)

On some of what our greatest scientists past/present have to say on UFOs & extra solar life:

"I'm convinced that [flying] saucers have an out-of-world basis." -Dr. Walter Reidel, noted German rocket expert. LIFE 4-7-1952.

"We are not alone in the universe!" -Prof. Claudio Anguila, director of Cerro Calan Observatory, quoted by Reuters, August 26, 1965.

"There is scientific evidence that strange objects are circling our planet. It is lamentable that governments have drawn a veil of secrecy around this matter." -Professor Gabriel Alvial, Cerro Calan Observatory, quoted by Reuters on August 26, 1965.

"Something unknown to our understanding is visiting this Earth." -Dr. Mitrovan Zverev (USSR), quoted by Reuters, August 26, 1965.
Scientists / Extra Solar Life / UFOs
======================================

"Of course it is possible that UFO's really do contain aliens as many people believe, and the Government is hushing it up." -Professor Stephen Hawking ( )

"We have contact with alien cultures." -Astronaut Dr. Brian O'leary

I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. Another words we are being watched by beings from outer space." -Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director, National Aeronautics and Space Administration,(NASA) and former United States Air Force spokesman for Project Blue Book.
Scientist / Astronauts / Extra Solar Life
======================================

"From now on the universe is without further mystery" -Merccelin Berthelot 1887

"The discs use a means of propulsion different from ours. There is no other possible explanation. Flying saucers come from another world." -
Louis Breguet. Breguet was a French aircraft designer and manufacturer. ( )
Scientific Witnesses / American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics UFO Subcommittee

Scientific / Bible Connection -This link has it all
======================================
A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. - Albert Einstein
=======================================

Now cal me cynical here if you want, but these guys have been/are respected through out the scientific community for many years.
Surely that must be telling you or I something, either they have it 'all wrong or they are straight out bullsh*t artists' or dare i say it a little loopy?


“If an idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.” -Albi Einstein

''Science is a method, not a position'' -Albi Einstein

Later...

Because a scientist at one time or another in their career has stated that there is a chance, UFOs are visiting earth does not mean it is true. They are merely stating there is a chance that it happens, which I can concede. There is also a chance I will hit the lottery tomorrow though.

Dr. Hawking also said, "We don’t know how likely it is for life to develop on a suitable planet. If the probability is very low, the distance between different life forms would be very large. Even if there is a reasonable probability for primitive life to develop, it is only at the last tiny fraction of the history of the Earth that life has developed intelligence. I doubt there is any intelligent life within range of Earth. If there were, why haven’t they visited Earth?"

and when asked about the good that would come from a first contact he states, "The history of colonization on Earth, does not encourage me to think that aliens would be friendly. It would be more like the film, Independence Day, than ET."

Hawking on Talk Asia

As far as Einstein quotes go, He (as far as I can tell) never really talks directly about aliens. My guess would be because he lived before the big time UFO conspiracies (Roswell was not that big of an incident yet in 1955 when he died). Most of his quotes you see on pro-UFO sites are taken out of context.

But this quote here is a great one "Science is a method, not a position". B/C there is no indisputable evidence that aliens do exist, no scientific study can be done on UFOs. Example, you see skyeagle pulls most of his evidence from newspaper/magazines/websites, Not from Science or Nature or Evolution

Y2k, Global cooling, The population bomb, Eugenics etc etc etc. Many scientist supported these, or stated that there was a chance they were true or would occur. That doesn't mean they were all real or did occur.



How so, b/c you claim, or someone speculates, a prominent figure makes a flirtatious passing remark about a subject does not make it fact, nor science. When you or someone can produce indisputable evidence, then we can close the matter, until then its speculation. Sorry if I am shy of speculation, science should be done secularly, objectively and skeptically.



Again I see you are keen to point that scientist have admitted belief in ETs and UFOs. Without evidence, this is still speculation. It is akin to me saying gravity is caused by falling dust. Without evidence, my statement is only that...a statement, speculation with unfounded reasoning, a belief. One thing it is not is real. Nor is scientific to make a claim and have no empirical evidence to back it up. The scientific method can be simplified to 3 steps, observation, proposed explanation (hypothesis), testing. UFO speculation stops at 2. You can observe a phenomena you don't understand, you can propose an explanation for said phenomena, but what you can't do is come up with a test to check and see if your hypothesis is correct.

''Chance'' yes maybe. I'm assuming you didn't go through all the links though.

But so many of these Scientists/Astronauts/High Ranking Military Officials/etc past and present are telling us ''straight out that they exist no ifs or buts''?


edit: Hey, if that 'chance' happens to comes your way in the lotto...err i only have 3 or 4 more payments left on my bike

From what I can see the vast majority of Scientists/Astronauts/High Ranking Military Officials/etc area telling us that it's simply unknown if such ETs exist or not. Now, this isn't to say that there aren't some (ex, Colonel Corso, author of The Day After Roswell book) that do make such claims. However, so far anyway, none of those who are making such claims have been able offer up any definitive/irrefutable evidence for the existence of these ETs. So, we seem to be stuck at the point of "possible but not definitively demonstrated".

Bare with me here Lilly, i'm trying to get a handle on what your trying to say here and what these Scientists and all the rest are claiming in which i read or thought i read in plain black and white. *scratches head*

You talking about if & buts, yet they saying they are out there/they exist but they have no proof, keeping in mind that these are claims made again by top Scientists/Astronauts/High Ranking Military Officials/even Presidents of countries(if you read between the lines, which is normal for some them anyway...dribbling between the lines lol!!!)
Bottom lining it here Lilly, what your actually saying then is even Scientists/Astronauts/High Ranking Military Officials... & Presidents(?) making these extraordinary claims need to produce conclusive proof as well?

If the average Joe was to make similar claims, he might find himself straped & thrown in a rubber room for further analysis.

I brought the links forward for others that might have missed them can see the claims for themselves...
Scientists / Extra Solar Life / UFOs
Scientist / Astronauts / Extra Solar Life
Scientific Witnesses / American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics UFO Subcommittee



Later

You couldn't be more correct. This has always been the case. There is no proof that aliens exist at the present time. There is also no proof that GOD exists, but the latter probably doesn't belong in this thread.

People claiming that alien life exists is not enough for the general public to believe, even if those whitenesses are very credible people. Most people need to see things first hand with their own eyes before they will believe it. Simply seeing a shiny object floating in the sky will not suffice, nor will some official looking documents and blurry videos of alien craft. Hell, it could be the best video possible. You could see an alien looking out the window of his space ship in perfect quality, waving to the camera, and many people would still think that it was fake. Until you see an ET shaking hands with the president of the United States on the news, there is no proof in the eyes of the general public and there never will be.

What keeps these forums alive with believers? The same thing that has kept religion on this planet going strong for hundreds of years. FAITH. You don't need evidence to have faith. I have faith, even though I have no real proof. Faith and the possibility of my faith being factual is what compels me to to investigate extra terrestrial life every day.

I have no proof that GOD exists either, but I still go to church. I go because I make leap of faith. Curious that many people believe in a invisible man in the sky who created everything (and have no proof that he exists), find it so hard to have faith in the existence alien life In fact, I have more evidence that ET exists than I do GOD.

I read through your links. Again though, an admission of chance or probability is still inconclusive without evidence. I even said I acknowledge the chance that UFOs are real and visiting earth or that aliens exist, in fact I firmly believe in the latter. But with our testable, empirical evidence, these are my thoughts and are unfounded.

Its also rather interesting that the majority of the quotes seem to have been made from 1955 to 1980, right smack during the full scale UFO phenomenon sweeping the country. Early this week, when I first posted, I wanted to make a graph of UFO reports by year, then add into the graph UFOs in the media, like the release of popular films etc. I think that would be very interesting, but I have not had the time and today is the last day of my vacation Maybe I could talk my wife into it, she is a cognitive psychologist and loves statistical trends.



yep, exactly. In the absence of definitive evidence, a statement made objectively about UFOs is only speculation, a untestable guess.

A very curious thing indeed. Talk to most anthropologists or people who study the development of thought and they will tell you that there are certain constructs of the human mind that we can not escape from. Faith is one of them, whether that be in god, environmentalism, aliens, bigfoot etc. It really is fascinating.

lol!
Good point...It's a crazy world ain't it.

Maybe the Mayans had it right...The ETs are the Gods