His father? The mighty God, Apollo, who came down from on high and impregnated the mortal woman, Atia. From this holy union was conceived, Augustus. This half-man, half-god ruled the greatest empire the world has ever known--Rome. He was hailed as "Son of God," "Lord," Savior," and the one who brought "peace on earth." On the day of his death, around 14 CE, he was seen ascending to heaven to be with his father.

God claimants? A dime a dozen. The miraculous? The norm of the day. The NT and its authors? Highly superstitious and ignorant of the workings of the world beyond the supernatural.

Jesus? A product of his time.

Respectfully,

Sean

ok..... and what was the point of this??

An interesting story. Do you have references so we might research the source ourselves?

Can you tell us where you got this information? Its very intriguing. It is interesting to note that during Jesus' time there were many false prophets. I remember reading about one who was able to amass a following of 30,000, which by year 27 was a whole lotta people. BTW the romans killed them all.

The point? To start a debate on the cultural context in which Jesus, his disciples, and the NT authors lived and the profound affect it had on how they perceived the world around them.

BuyMeAPony ... You answered a key point[s] of my post. How easy was it for people to be swayed by an authoritative figure--in this case, The Egyptian, a messiah figure? It was quite normal--something Josephus rails about in his writings. He believed these figures were the root-cause for the Revolt and the destruction of the Temple by the Romans.

Source? Any good history text on Rome. In this case, however, I came across it again while reading a section on Roman imperial theology in The Last Week: The Day-by-Day Account of Jesus's Final Week in Jerusalem (p. 15) by Borg and Crossan--which I highly recommend by the way.

The Last Week
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/006084539...ce&n=283155

De Imperatoribus Romanis: Augustus (Pennsylvania State University)
http://www.roman-emperors.org/auggie.htm

Kindly,

Sean

anything in particular you want to talk about? it is quite a broad subject.

have you read anything by members of the Context Group. their website here: http://www.serv.net/~oakmande/ has a list of members and thier publications.

I think the author of this thread is trying to show us the similarities between the stories in the bible and the stories of old Greek mythology.

I think you are right

The similarities are very suprising. Heres an example off the top of my head:

Pandora was the first woman on earth and opened pandora's box bring evil to the world.

Eve was the first woman on earth who ate from the forbidden fruit tree and got mankind kicked out of paradise.

Well there is a lot of evidence that the stories of the Bible are just borrowed from the beliefs of other cultures.

Could be...you can find tons of similaritiesfrom any of the world's religions.

An argument can be made that if we were to generalize any story enough it would resemble many other stories. It can be claimed that the details differ significantly and you've just peeled back everything except a couple of events that happen to coincide with another story, and then claimed they've been copied.

If I were to go forward 2000 years and generalize the details of the Vietnam war and the Gulf War, and take one or two similar incidents, people might make the assumption that one was copied from the other.

It's a possibility

Regards, PA

Oh c'mon, you can't honestly tell me that the similarities in the stories of Jesus, the flood, etc. are just generalizations, christians did it on purpose in order to draw people away from other religions, just like they chose to create holidays around the same time as pagan holidays, they're salesmen.

I'm just saying it's a possibility. It depends on your point of view.

Here's a thought: if it's supposedly a religious belief, why would someone copy something to begin with?

Let us presuppose that, for example, the following was told about, say, Abraham Lincoln and George W. Bush: "He was born in a log cabin to a poor family, chopped down a cherry tree, threw a silver dollar across the Potomac River, crossed the Delaware River in triumph, was married to Martha, freed the slaves, and was assassinated in the Ford Theatre." I have deliberately included a little of George Washington just for fun. 2000 years from now, one would conclude that either George W. Bush was a fabrication, or the story was plagiarized from earlier sources. In the case of Jesus, we have many savior Gods about whom the same exact story is told as Jesus, down to fine details: he was born in a cave (slight variant=barn), the King tried to have him killed, astrologers predicted his birth. He was the Son of God by a virgin (or mirabulous posthumous), he displayed miraculous wisdom as a child, was murdered or executed, preferably on a tree or cross, and resurrected. Osiris, Mithras, Jesus, Krishna, Attis, Buddha and so on and so on, and so on. There are so many identical details. The story has been told for thousands of years about countless heroes. We've been over this so many times before that you know all the details. Symbols. It is the same story for a reason.

Not really having much to do with Roman history, but I recently read a great book: Why the jews rejected jesus by David Klinghoffer. Its not a christian bashing book or anthing. Its a scholarly book which takes into account historians from Jesus' time period like Josephus. I enjoyed it and it taught me quite a bit. I believe it is an american book so if you are in the United States you could probably get it easliy enough.

I don't know, why don't you ask Mythra?

Was that being sarcastic or are you serious?

Granted these are from Wikipedia but it still shows the differences!

Vietnam War

Gulf War


BTW: on second thought there is really not much of a difference between religion and war......they both kill innocents.

You’re right, SSL. Too broad. Let’s simplify this, rephrase the question:

We know Augustus (numerous emperors), The Egyptian (various other Messianic claimants), Apollonius of Tyana et al were declared Savior and Messiah, were said to have performed miraculous deeds so forth and so on ... but were mere men. So ...

1. What makes Jesus any different from the above? Why should anyone believe he was anything but just another divine product of the 1st century?

2. Did Greco-Roman imperial theology influence the Gospel writers--the Apostle Paul, inparticular? And did any other esoteric beliefs--Gnosticism, for example--find their way into the NT?

Kindly,

Sean

P.S. Thanks for the link, SSL.

Considering that you have been losing a debate with him for a couple of weeks, what do you think?

from Augustus:
Of course, Augustus was Roman while Jesus was Galiean.
Augustus was born into an equestrian family; Jesus into a peasant family.
Augustus grew up in a urban setting, Jesus in a rural one.
Augustus was emperor, Jesus was an ex-carpenter who wandered around Judea.
Augustus had power. Jesus had none, except when it came to healing.
Augustus died in some honorable fashion; Jesus was crucified.
Augustus probably would have had an interest in maintianing the social order of the time; Jesus made clear that he was attempting to upset it.
Augustus' religion was probably something falling under the umbrella of roman paganism. Jesus followed the Judean religion.
and the Ressurection.

Apollonius of Tyana was Greek, urbanite, philosopher. I don't really know much about him.
He wasnt executed.
He looks like he might make a good candidate for people to go around claiming he never existed.
His one biography is seperated by a longer gap than that of Jesus and the gospels.

The Egyptian was egyptian. He seems more interested in overthrowing the romans by force. He warranted a Roman military response. He fled and was never heard from again.
good question.
I dont really know much about either.

I've been losing the debate? Hmmm.....yes, more mindless contraption.

You evidentially are the only one that doesn't realize how lame your answering posts are!

Like I said.......mindless.

I don't think you are that hopeless. Just try to use your mind more and it will develope!

What about the historical textbooks? I look into that kind of arguement as to who and what was behind pulling the strings, not who came first and who came last in place, there were gods before Mithra, that's a fact, I would just like not having to deal with the idea that someone can come in and tell me that most of those other religions copied Mithraism, and if they did, it would be contrary to what has been said about how radical the idea is to think that Satan acknowledged the future, looking in textbooks is only a physical record, the spirtual matters at hand are quite different from that labeled by textbooks.

I think it is reasonable to believe the Jesus story is mythology, considering the history prior to his appearance is filled with similar 'individuals' with significant, unreal abilities. This doesn't mean his story is less important or without spiritual fulfillment. Most myths contain extraordinary stories of powers which humans do not have. The stories are meant to be inspirational, not necessarily to be taken literally. Anyone that would force or pressure someone to believe the unbelievable or unseen, is truly weak in spirit. Individuals must find spiritual happiness in their own way, with the help of myths or not.

Ohh that was a goodie!
Cheers!

Well, the three you mentioned didn't have shoes named after them. Really.

Have you ever heard anyone saying, "Hey, nice Apollonius of Tyana sandals, bud."

I didn't think so.

i've never heard anyone say Apollonius of Tyana.

Clearly you decided to ignore my point.

Jesus Christ

Mithra

there are differences in these accounts also. Glad you also found time to add in your customary swipe at religious institutions in your final sentence though

No I did not ignore your point. I pointed out there are many MAJOR differences between the "Vietnam War" and the "Gulf War".


BTW: I commend you on your choice to compare religions using warfare

WHy thank you, zandore. I thought it was a good analogy. though obviously not for the same reasons you do

Apollonius of Tyana was an interesting fellow--one often compared closely with Jesus. In fact, he was also referred to as Apollonius of Tyana, the Nazarene. It was also said--and whether this is true or not, I haven't a clue--that early artisans used his portrait as a template for Jesus. You decide ...



And this is something I find very telling:

... In modern times, Voltaire and Charles Blount (1654-1693), the English freethinker, have adopted a similar standpoint. Apart from this extravagant eulogy, it is absurd to regard Apollonius merely as a vulgar charlatan and miracle-monger. If we cut away the mass of mere fiction which Philostratus accumulated, we have left a highly imaginative, earnest reformer who attempted to promote a spirit of practical morality.

SOURCE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonius_of_tyana

AND:

... And one of the most important things is, Apollonius performs miracles.

For example, here is a miracle of Apollonius: a young girl seemed to have died in the very hour of her marriage, and the bridegroom was following the bier, weeping over his unfulfilled marriage. Rome mourned also, for it happened that the dead girl was from one of the best families. Apollonius happened to be present while they were mourning, and said, "Put down the bier, for I will end your weeping for this girl." And at that same time, he asked what her name was. The bystanders thought he was going to give a speech like those people give at burials to heighten everyone's sorrow, kind of a paid mourner. But he didn't. Instead, he touched her and, saying something no one could hear, awakened the girl who seemed to be dead. And the girl spoke and went back to her father's house, just like Alcestis, who was brought back to her life by Heracles. And when the relatives of the girl offered Apollonius 150,000 silver pieces as a reward, he replied that he would return it to the child as a gift for her dowry. Miracle sound familiar to you? Raising a young girl? It's the miracle from Mark 5, in fact, called the miracle of Jairus' daughter. A very, very similar miracle. In fact, it follows the pattern of the gospel miracle almost exactly.

SOURCE
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/sh...sium/magic.html

Thomas Jefferson et al felt the same about Jesus--so much so, that he rewrote the NT, leaving out all of Jesus's miracles and retaining his moral teachings.

Apollonius: Divine Mediator Figures in the Biblical World at the Divinity School of the University of St Andrews
http://www.st-andrews.ac.uk/~www_sd/med_apollonius.html

As for Greco-Roman theology finding its way into the Gospels ... This was the norm of the day--emperors and heroes born of divine means, performing miraculous deeds, dying and ascending to heaven etc. The Gospels are replete with such stories applied to Jesus. In fact, the later the Gospel, the more imbellished the stories become. Mark--the earliest Gospel--doesn't even have a miraculous birth ... and by John--the latest Gospel--not only is Jesus divine, but he has become "logos," the very word of creation!

As for esoteric beliefs--Gnosticism, for example--finding their way into Paul's theology ... Look closely at his work. He makes mention of a "Third Heaven" (2 Corinthians 12:2), secret knowledge (12:4) and being lost in/out of his body (12:3) et, al. You don't get much more Gnostic than that. And this only makes sense. Being born in Tarsus, a Hellenized city if there ever was one, he would have been very aware of pagan practices. This must of influenced him on some level, to some degree.

Among the men of Tarsus the zeal for philosophy and other kinds of education surpasses that in Athens and Alexandria and any other place renowned for schools and occupation in philosophy–-Strabo Geography 14.5.13

Kindly,

Sean

Sean

SLL. I am suprised that you had never heard of him! Well, I guess there are blanks in my knowledge of that period too!

Yes they both needlessly (and without remorse) kill innocent woman and children.

So that's what you do is it

And just what is it that he does?

Needlessly kill....never!
Without remorse....sadly every time.

I don't know, but my first ever job was a janitor. Bet he works at micky d's

Never worked at Micky D's....How is that related to this discussion?

It's not, so lets get back on-topic.

So zannie(Mc D's) fed the people sh*t..you (Janitor) cleaned it up!!
this is you now ---> but hey I likies ya

LOL yeah. I guess, but give me some credit. I was a night janitor. I went to school AND worked. I'm one hell of a guy

OH F*CK, I got off-topic again, Sorry, continue......

RE: Apollonius' miracle.
the silver pieces in the quote are sesterces, each one worth a quarter of a denarius. 37500 denarii could throw games or buy most of a ship; it is an absurdly large amount of money.
Almost all of our information on Apollonius come from a 3rd century biography. To try to determine if Apollonius influenced the gospel writers wouldn't seem to work, as the influence could easily have gone the other way.
the social status at birth, method of death and the bodily resurection would be the greatest differences.
Jesus doesnt have a birth at all in Mark.
I think the OT has three heavens, i know it mentions at least two.
i doubt sayings no man can say would fall under the umbrella of gnostic secret knowledge. wasnt the big secret some ritual anyway?
visions aren't unique to gnosticism.

How cool, a century before our evidence of Jesus. As for the social status, alledgedly, Jesus was the inheritor of David's throne. the method of death is unimportant. the legends are so close. A resurrected Sun God is a resurrected Sun God.