War ethics in Islam

First of all, war is decreed in Islam in self defense. This indicates that aim behind war is to ward off aggression not to impose Islam as a religion. Referring to this, Allah Almighty says: “To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged; and verily God is most powerful for their aid.” (Al-Hajj:39)


Turning to the main topic of the question concerning war ethics in Islam, we would like to develop the whole issue while dealing with the following main points:


1-Personal Behavior of the Troops:
In war, as it is in peace, the instructions of Islam are to be observed. Worship does not cease in war. Islamic jurisprudence maintains that whatever is prohibited during peace is also prohibited during war. War is no excuse to be lenient with misbehaving troops. The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, is reported to have said: “Beware of the prayer of the oppressed; for there is no barrier between it and Allah.” Here, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, differentiates between the oppressed believers and non-believers.



2-Whom to Fight:
Fighting should be directed only against fighting troops, and not to non- fighting personnel, and this is in compliance with the Qur’anic verse that reads: “ Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not, aggressors.” (Al-Baqarah: 190)


In one of the battles, a woman was found killed, and this was denounced by the Prophet saying "She did not fight" This will be further detailed under the instructions given to the armies and their commanding chiefs by the Prophet and his Caliphs.



3-The Prophet's instructions to Commanding Chiefs:
The Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, used to instruct his commanding chiefs saying: “Fight in the cause of Allah. Fight those who deny Allah; Do not be embittered. Do not be treacherous. Do not mutilate. Do not kill children or those (people) in convents.”


4-Abu-Bakr's instructions to Usama's Campaign on Syria:


“Do not betray or be treacherous or vindictive. Do not mutilate. Do not kill the children, the aged or the women. Do not cut or bum palm trees or fruitful trees. Don’t slay a sheep, a cow or camel except for your food. And you will come across people who confined themselves to worship in hermitages, leave them alone to what they devoted themselves for.”



5-Abu-Bakr's Instructions to Yazid ibn-Abi Sufian:
“I give you ten commandments: don’t kill a woman or a child or an old person, and don’t cut trees or ruin dwellings or slay a sheep but for food. Dont burn palm trees or drown them. And don’t be spiteful or unjust.”



6-Maintaining Justice and Avoidance of Blind Retaliation:
None can be more illustrative in this respect than the words of the Qurt’an. Allah Almighty says: “ O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do.” (Al-Maidah: 8)



7-Medical and Nursing Services:
From the early days of Islam the sanctity of the medical profession was recognized. Christian and Jewish doctors were employed by the Islamic state since the days of the Umayyads, and some of them were even court and personal physicians to caliphs. Under the tolerant attitude of Islam, some of them got the chance to unfold their full scientific potential and thus contributed to the progress of medical knowledge.


Medical help was a right to all men in spite of religion or creed. That this was also extended to those amongst enemy. An example well known in the West is that of Saladin securing medical help to his opponent, Richard Lion Heart of England who was seriously ill during the Crusades. Saladin sent him his own doctor and personally supervised Richard's treatment until he became well.


In quoting this particular example, one dare say that such an attitude was quite different to the behavior characterizing the invading crusaders. When the crusaders entered Jerusalem on July 15th 1099, they slaughtered seventy thousand Muslims including women, children and old men. They broke children's skulls by knocking against the wall, threw babies from roof tops, roasted men over fire and cut up women's bellies to see if they had swallowed gold.


This description was given by Gibbon, a Christian writer, and commented on by Ludbig Wbo wondered how come after those horrible atrocities they prayed at the burial place of Christ for blessing and forgiveness (Draper/History of the Intellectual Development of Europe, Vol. 2, p. 77).


We do not mention this in bitterness or prejudice for every honest Muslim or Christian well knows that Christianity is something and many deeds of the crusaders are something else.



8-Prisoners of War:
For the first time in religious or sectarian history, Islam adopted an attitude of mercy and caring for the captured enemy. Unprecedented by previous legal systems, and long before the Geneva Convention, Islam set the rule that the captive is sheltered by his captivity and the wounded by his injury.


Previously, it was the custom for the captive to work for his food or get it through private means. The Qur’an made it a charity to feed the prisoners saying:


“Lo! the righteous shall drink of a cup whereof the mixture is of water of Kafur. A spring wherefrom the slaves of Allah drink, making it gush forth abundantly. Because they perform the vow and fear a day whereof the evil is wide spreading. And feed with food the needy wretch, the orphan and the prisoner, for love of Him. (Saying): We feed you, for the sake of Allah only. We wish for no reward nor thanks from you.” (Al-Insan: 5-9)


The Prophet instructed his Companions to be good to the captives. In one of his traditions, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, ordered his Companions saying: “ You should be good to the captives.”


Abu Aziz-ibn Umair, one of the captives of Badr battle, recalls:


“Whenever I sat with my captors for lunch or dinner, they would offer me the bread and themselves the dates, in view of the Prophet's recommendation in our favor (in that desert situation bread was the more luxurious item of food than dates)


As soon as any of them held a piece of bread, he would offer it to me. "Feeling shy, I would give it back to one of them but he would immediately return it to me."


Another, Thumama ibn-Athal, was taken prisoner and brought to the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, who said: “Be good to him in his captivity.” When the Prophet went home he instructed to collect whatever food there, and ordered it sent to the prisoner.


When the Jewish tribe of Bani Qurayzah were captured, loads of dates were regularly carried to them, with the Prophet's instructions to shelter them from the summer sun and to provide them with water to drink.


From the legal point of view, Muslim opinion is unanimous on the prohibition of subjecting the captives to ill treatment by withholding food, drink or clothing.



9-The Fate of War Prisoners:
This was based upon the teaching of the Qur’an:


“Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.” (Muhammad: 4)


According to Islamic law, the captive belongs to the state and not to his captor. The ruler has the ultimate option, as he sees fit, of granting freedom or doing that after taking a ransom.


Among those whom the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, granted freedom was a poet called Abu-Azza who said to the Prophet: “I have five daughters who have no one to support them, so give me away to them as a charity and I promise never to fight you or help your enemies.


Abul-As Ibn Al Rabiae was freed for a ransom, which the Prophet later returned back to him. Later, the man embraced Islam.


Umarna Ibn-Athal was set free upon his promise not to provide the enemy with food. This gentle treatment touched the man’s heart and was then converted to Islam saying to the Prophet: "There was a time when your face was the most hated face to me, and there comes a day when it is the most loved.”


Sometimes captives were exchanged for Muslim captives in enemy hands. An acceptable ransom that was quite often carried out was to teach ten Muslim children to read and write. It is noteworthy that modern international law allows for setting free a prisoner of war on equivalent lines.


Personnel were set free upon their word of honor not to fight again, and they should not be ordered by their governments to go to battle again. If they break their promise, they might be punishable by death if they are captured again.



10-Nonbelligerents
Islam never fought nations but fought only despotic authorities. Islamic war was one of liberation and not of compulsion. The freedom of the liberated people to decide their religion has already been mentioned, and it was to ensure this freedom that Muslims fought. It is interesting to mention that when Muslims fought the Romans in Egypt, the Egyptian Copts sided with and helped Muslims against the Romans who were Christians like them. This was because Christian Egypt was suffering religious oppression by the Christian Romans to compel them to adopt their religious beliefs.


One of the earliest actions of the Muslims in Egypt was the assurance of religious freedom and the reinstatement of Bejamin as Bishop of Alexandria after years of hiding from the Romans in the western desert.


But religious freedom was but one aspect that Islam gave. Whether Arab or Egyptian, Muslim or Christian, Islam built up that FELLOWSHIP that humanity aspires to, in equality and fraternity .The story is well known of the running contest held in Egypt and won by an Egyptian to the dismay of an Arab competitor who was the son of `Amru Ibn Al-`Aas, governor of Egypt. The Arab hit the boy saying 'how dare you outrun me and I am the son of the nobility." Upon which Umar, the caliph, ordered the three all the way to Madinah, and ordered the Egyptian to avenge by hitting the offending Arab, saying: "Hit him back. Hit the son of nobility." Addressing `Amru, he uttered his famous saying: “O `Amru, since when have you enslaved people while their mothers have born them free.”



10-International Law:
The process of active intervention to stop or remove aggression is a development that modem international law has recognized.


The second world war for example was sparked by Germany's invasion of Poland, and drew into the fighting countries that were not direct parties to the conflict. One of the fruits of war was the creation of the United Nations in order to settle disputes between nations by peaceful means or indeed if necessary by a collective military force. No one should argue therefore that Egypt and the Roman Empire for example should have been left alone to solve their mutual problems. In modem times the rest of the family of nations consider it a duty to do something about it. Fourteen centuries prior to the establishment of the League of Nations and later the United Nations, Islam decreed such responsibility.


The legal principle of intervention to solve dispute was offered by the Qur’anic saying:


“If two parties of believers fall into a quarrel, make ye peace between them: But if one of them transgresses beyond bounds against the other, then fight ye (all) against the one that transgresses until it complies with the command of God; but if it complies, then make peace between them with justice, and be fair: for God loves those who are fair.” (Al-Hujurat: 9)



11-Respect of Treaties and Agreements:
One of the major shortcomings of modern international politics is its meager regard to moral obligation. Time and again, treaties and agreements proved unworthy of the price of paper they had been written on. The most splendid produce of the human intellect in the field of international law might instantly vanish upon the call of greed or creed at this age that we wish to think has brought us to the epic of civilization.


And what is worse is that the most sophisticated achievements of scientific progress are often used as tools in the hands of Godless or God-disregarding policies: instead of being exploited 'in the cause of God.’


From the outset, Islam has emphatically prohibited treachery by taking the enemy by surprise attack. Recent examples of signing a pact or treaty with a nation as camouflage to hidden intent to attack it are quite contrary to Islam, as several quotations from the Qur’an reads:


“ O ye who believe! Fulfil your undertakings…”(Al-Maidah:1)


“Fulfill the convenant of God when you have entered into it, and break not your oaths after you have confirmed them; indeed you have made God your surety, for God knoweth an that you do.” (An-Nahl: 91)


If Muslims sense the treachery of any enemy with whom they had a treaty, they should declare to him the annulment of that treaty before embarking on war again.


“Thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for God loveth not the treacherous.” (Al-Anfal:85)


Although Muslims are bound to go to the help of their Muslim brethren who are religiously persecuted in the land of an enemy; they are not allowed to fulfill this duty if there is a treaty between the Muslim community and this enemy. Priority goes to honouring the treaty.


“But if they seek your aid in religion, it is your duty to help them, except against a people with whom you have a treaty of mutual alliance. And (remember) God seeth an that you do." (Al-Anfal:72)

Now, Can any law be more idealistic!?

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)



Hmm... The recent bodies of the 2 soldiers and the countless woman and children in suicide bombings and IED's don't count?

How about the Taliban threatening to cut off the noses and ears of girls in Afgan for learning?



Mercy? The number of recent hostages beaten, beheaded or just in general killed in some way... That's mercy to Muslims?



Islamic law states a convert to any religion but Islam shall be put to death. As of the case of the recent event in Afgan of the Christian convert.



Yeah, I think we all had a good laugh at this when Hamas just broke it's promised cease-fire a couple weeks ago.


"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

Islamic Nations Slaughter, Enslave Christians
December 16, 2001
by Tom Barrett


THERE IS NOT ONE CHRISTIAN NATION ON EARTH WHERE MUSLIMS ARE PERSECUTED. Yet in 83% of nations where the majority of the population are Muslims, there is systematic government persecution of Christians. (See "Religious Freedom in the Majority Islamic Countries" in the Resources section below.) This persecution includes imposing the death penalty for sharing the Christian faith with a Muslim; national laws prohibiting conversion from Islam to Christianity; destruction of churches; and murder or expulsion of Christian missionaries. Even in the few predominantly Muslim countries where the government does not openly participate in the persecution, it ignores and even encourages illegal persecution by Muslims against Christians.

I spent hours going through the well-documented profiles of the forty-six countries listed in the report mentioned above. Of these, six did not have significant Muslim populations. Of the thirty-nine with a strong Muslim majority, only seven could be considered to be either neutral or tolerant toward their Christian minorities. If the United States were to treat its roughly two million Muslims with one-tenth of the violence and humiliation that these Islamic nations heap on their Christians, the worldwide outcry would be immediate, and justified. Why, then, does the "Community of Nations," including the United States, turn a deaf ear to the cries of the persecuted Christians in Muslim nations?

The laws of most of these Islamic nations give lip service to religious freedom. Nothing could be further from the truth. In most of the countries I researched, the death penalty was common for converting from Islam to Christianity (or any other religion). Christians receive no protection from these governments when they are persecuted; indeed, most often the governments themselves are the persecutors. Children of Christians are stolen from their parents so that they can be raised as Muslims. Speaking about Christianity to a Muslim can result in beatings, long prison sentences and even death.

The most urgent situation demanding our attention today is in Indonesia, which has the largest Muslim population of any non-Arab country. There Islamic fundamentalists have promised a bloodbath of Christians before Christmas. This is no idle threat; in 1996 Islamic fundamentalists slaughtered 3,000 Christians in East Timor. More recently, a group called Laskar Jihad, which hails Osama bin Laden as its hero, slaughtered thousands of Christians with the help of government troops. (See "Christians Terrorized in Muslim Indonesia" in the Resources section.) An Indonesian military officer is quoted as saying that the government has the power to stop the Jihad, but government officials "all the way to the top" profit from it. Their goal is nothing less than to exterminate every Christian in Indonesia or force them to leave. According to Steven Snyder, the president of International Christian Concern who visited Indonesia in November, about 15,000 Laskar Jihad troops equipped with AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and bulldozers are threatening to kill 50,000 Christians and destroy their homes and churches in the next week.

In Sudan, Christians are sold into slavery or murdered for no other crime than naming the Name of Christ. Over two million have been murdered, and 200,000 have been sold into slavery by their government. An organization named Christian Solidarity International (PLEASE visit C.S.I.'s website listed in Resources Section) has raised money to buy almost 60,000 slaves from their captors and free them. One 22-year-old Protestant girl, a virgin, was captured by government soldiers and raped repeatedly for five days as she was marched through the jungle tied to twenty other slaves. Many women and children died during this march. She was then used as a slave and forced to study Islam until bought out of slavery by C.S.I.

What about our "allies"? You can dress a monster up in a pinstriped suit, teach him to speak formally and use the right fork at state dinners, and put him in a group of diplomats for for a photo opportunity, but that doesn't make him civilized. Our "friends" in the international community, including Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Egypt, and our most recent buddy, Pakistan, are all guilty of atrocities against Christians based on nothing other than their profession of faith. Let me emphasize that we are not talking about a radical minority of citizens acting on their own. We are talking about systematic state persecution, state murder and state crimes against humanity, all legal according to the various constitutions and laws of these vicious nations.

Let's start with our "friend and ally," Saudi Arabia. Their "Constitution" is the Koran. This nation, whose population is 98% Muslim, finances Islamic terrorist groups in moderate Islamic nations which force conversion to Islam under the threat of death. In Saudi Arabia, rape is punishable by death- unless it is a Muslim man violating a Christian woman. The Saudis are so rich from their oil that most refuse to do common labor, so they import six million foreign workers. Of these, ten percent are Christians. They are not allowed to wear a cross in public and or to celebrate Christmas, but are forced to observe Ramadan. Christians, even tourists, have been arrested by the Religious Police for participating in prayer meetings in private homes. Any who speak of their faith publicly are tortured in an attempt to convert them to Islam. Those who refuse are executed. Punishment for distributing Bibles can range from lashes with a whip or amputation of a limb, to beheading.

Turkey, our "military ally", is 99.8% Muslim. Recently, eight Americans were arrested in Turkey for the "crime" of giving away copies of the New Testament. In 1974 Turkey overran Cyprus - which is 80% Christian - and has ruled that small nation with an iron fist since then. The Turkish government expelled thousands of Orthodox Christians, then took a thousand-year-old monastery and turned it into a mosque! Imagine the international outcry if a mosque anywhere were to be stolen by a government and turned into a Christian church.

Egypt, described by our State Department as a "friend of the United States" is one of the worst persecutors of Christians. In Cairo an entire Christian neighborhood was set on fire by Islamic terrorists. Children were thrown out of windows in front of their horrified parents, churches were burned and Christian's homes destroyed. This went on for two days without the government doing anything to stop it. Egyptian security forces have been accused by eye-witnesses of raping, then crucifying adolescent girls.

In Pakistan recently a 14-year-old Christian girl was kidnapped, forced to convert to Islam, then raped and given to a Muslim to be one of his wives. The pleas of her parents were ignored by the police. In 1997, Islamic extremists, aided by Pakistani police, destroyed the homes of 800 Christians as well as thirteen churches, because they had "insulted Islam." A few weeks ago six children and nine adults were gunned down as they worshiped in a Christian church. This terrorist nation is our newest "ally" in the war against terrorism.

The Libyan government took a Christian Cathedral and converted it to a mosque. In Kuwait, the nation America's military saved from a brutal occupation by Iraq, the government tries to bribe Christians to convert to Islam. A Kuwaiti Christian was recently condemned to die by the religious court for converting from Islam. It should come as no surprise that 150,000 Christians have fled Iraq to avoid persecution. Over 150 Christian churches have been demolished in Iraq, where death is the penalty for proclaiming faith in Christ, and where Saddam Hussein has proclaimed himself "The Defender of the Islamic Faith."

Hundreds of Christian missionaries have been murdered in Algeria and other Islamic nations. Iran pretends to have religious freedom, but students in all schools are forced to study Islam, as are draftees in their military services. Conversion to any religion other than Islam brings a swift death sentence. If space permitted, I could give hundreds of other examples of atrocities committed by Muslims against Christians simply because of their faith. The events I have described are happening as you read this. Christians are being tortured today because they will not convert to Islam. Christians are dying today because they dare to speak the Name of Christ.

Our President has stated repeatedly that Islam is a peaceful religion which has "been hijacked by radicals." I know why he makes that statement. If Bush said anything else, he would be labeled a hate-monger, as I am sure I will be for speaking the truth. The facts speak for themselves. Do the research, as I have done. Eighty-three percent of the governments of nations with a Muslim majority kill, enslave, and persecute Christians with the blessings (and very often, the complicity) of their Islamic clergy. I'm sure that there are many kind, loving Muslims who live in those countries. I just wonder why they allow such atrocities to be committed in the name of their religion.

Most of you who have written to me about the goodness and kindness of Muslims know only Muslims who live in this country. They have been influenced by the values of America, which include tolerance toward other religions, values based on the Bible. Many U.S. Muslim immigrants are as horrified as we are by the actions of Muslims in the countries of their birth (see the letter from a subscriber on this subject following the Resources section).

God tells us in Proverbs 31:8 that we must speak up for those who cannot speak for themselves. President Bush needs to speak up in behalf of the good people of this nation who are appalled by the cruelty of Islamic governments towards our brothers and sisters in Muslim nations. Our President needs to demand that Muslim nations treat Christians as Muslims are treated here in America. Please sign the petition to our President regarding this persecution, the first item in the Resources section. Tell President Bush not to be seduced by promises from liars, in order to get their cooperation in our battle against terrorism. The war against terrorism is a just war, but if in our zeal to punish international terrorists we ally ourselves with religious terrorists, what have we gained?

It's all well and good to say something, but it really makes no difference unless you practice what you preach. But I guess since Islam also preaches the relentless and merciless persecution and murder of non Muslims, it all balances out. Hooray!

fist of all it was israel as usuall who broke the treaty.
second of all, my dear brother, there is osmething called "tafseer" in islam. it means "interpretation". You cant just take any verse from the Quran that says fight the non muslim and say "oh well i have 2 fight them", thats what the terorists do. You must look at the interpretation off the verses. Some verses, such as those related 2 war, in the interpretation tell us why these verses came, when, and what was going on at that time!

for example: "Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

whats the interpretation of this verse? the non muslims who had a pewace treaty with the muslims broke the treaty and wanted to invade the muslims, therefore this verse came to tell the muslims to go forward and fight them. You cant use this verse forever, it was used just that once, and so on. Get the point?

If a Christian beheads a muslim, does that mean all Christians agree with him? Crusades..? Iraq, in case you dont know, many innocent ppl have been killed in Iraq, isnt war against Christianity? Well? Get the point? CHristians dont represent Christianity, Muslims dont represent Islam. The bible represent Christianity, the Koran WITH ITS INTERPRETATION represents Islam.

It sure seems in Muslim countries there are no safe places for christians(and no I am not one).To me it seems Muslims are not tolerant of other religions.

Show me an instance of a Christian beheading a Muslim.

Edit-Ok, now I suppose I'll respond in more depth. Frankly I don't care if war IS against Christianity. I'm not a Christian so it means nothing to me. But the fact of the matter is I, or anyone, could interpret anything, any work of literature, art, music, however I want it. I could look through my high school yearbook and tell you that the picture captions tell me to start murdering prostitutes because that's my "interpretation." You're acting awful smug for someone whose argument hinges on an Islam-centric mentality. How many threads have you started about how Islam is right? Islam may well be correct. But in the same regard, any other lunatic religion may be correct.

Muslim extremists, whether you want to admit it or not, are not fighting for religious freedom of any kind. They're fighting to convert the entire world to Islam, by whatever means necessary. They'll kill anyone, even other Muslims, if they don't adhere to the insanity to which the terrorists do. The whole thing's ridiculous. I'm just upset that this all had to come to a head during my lifetime, because I genuinely feel like I'm going to watch the world end because of lunatics and idiots.

The Crusades! Umm Iraq! If you didnt see the news, Fallujah was hit by Chemical weapons!! And Irish, your facts are verry messed up that i dont know ehere 2 start.

One very important fact is ignored when talking about Islam and other religions for that matter.

The entire religion of Islam is based upon ONE man's story of how he talked to a messenger of God. I find it absolutely incredible that anyone can believe what Mohammed said. IMO, he made it all up. And it is insane to take the word of one person and completely give your whole life over to what he said was told to him.

Islam is very clearly a man made religion that has a political agenda as well as being used to control women for the advantage of men.

Not at all examples of a Christian beheading a Muslim. The Crusades were hundreds of years ago, when the world was a VERY different place, and the church was very different as well. Show me ONE Muslim beheaded in Iraq by a Christian. Even if you can't, hell, I'll show you videos of twenty non Muslims being beheaded in the name of Allah. I'll show you prisoners lined up and shot in the back of the head in the name of Allah. Fallujah was hit with white phosphorous, if I'm understanding you correctly, which I believe is used as an illuminating agent in the dark.

Also, Iraq is a war between nations, not between faiths. You can't have a religious war when one of the parties involved has no official religion.

http://www.albasrah.net/index.php

look, the ppl executed non muslims in iraq arent executing them because theyre non muslims. theyre executing them because they are helping the occupation of their country! They want the USA TO LEAVE! get it?

No. Completely unreasonable and insane. I don't like illegal immigrants in my country...should I videotape their executions? I'd be called a madman, and rightly so. But in Islam they're called freedom fighters and holy warriors. How about the people beheaded who were there as journalists? Or humanitarians, even? And calling those beheadings "executions" is just an illustration of your ignorance. Those were murders, nothing more. Religiously driven murders committed by lunatics practicing a religion they've twisted into one of hate. If you genuinely believe the crap you're spewing you're outta your mind. If this was a different forum I'd assume you were a joke just to make some waves.

Why, if these maniacs want the U.S. to leave, do they behead Japanese, English, Irish, OTHER Iraqis? They're murderers, they're savages, and probably should've been bombed into oblivion long ago just to slightly extend the lifespan of humanity. Islam's spread will be the end of the human race, or at the very least civilization as we now know it.

No I don't 'get it'. When you are fighting in an Army in a war its inevitable that some will die. To kidnap, torture and behead a person/ people is something entirely different. Its Murder.
I also don't buy into the whole its not because their Muslim avenue either. Its been pretty much proven by the tapes that the hate these people (the perpetrators of these horrific acts) have for anyone who does not follow Islam is evident and very real.

its ur opinion and i respect it. and in case u dont know, the U.S isnt the only country occupying iraq right now. Japan Britian Spain and many others are there too.

I have no comment, although Muslims do seem a little blood seeking.

it is murder and its against islam

How many threads is he going to do on muslims? I can only take so much.lol

I beg to differ Lottie... To me; being in the army and killing people is murder regardless of the circumstances... To me, soldiers represent the lowest of the low, and are hired killers... when we need them to go and kill a nation full of small "brown" people (not a racist remark there, not intended to be) we call on them... When two armies fight each other, innocent civilians get caught up... I disagree with soldiers and war a lot, regardless of the nation fighting.
Having said that, i don't agree with people beheading hostages on TV either...



You mean blood-seeking in comparison to christians? The instigators of the inquisition, the crusades, etc? Hmmmm seems a tad hypocritical to call muslims "blood-seeking"

You must have a pretty high opinion of yourself to talk about soldiers the way you do. Would YOU be willing to go and die for your country? To kill for your country? To kill or be killed to stop the spread of some kind of evil, or to defend your life, lifestyle, and the lives of your loved ones? Even with the other CRAP that so frequently makes its way to these boards, THAT is probably one of the singular most offensive, awful, asinine, disgusting things I've ever read.

Why does everyone always bring this up? You're presuming that whoever wrote that is a Christian, and therefore a hypocrite. You're also not looking through the eyes of someone who acknowledges that the world has changed in the hundreds of years since the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Well i'm sorry that I offended you Drippy... But when you ask if i'd be willing to die for my country, the answer would have to be NO because i'm not going to kill people who have never done anything to me in my whole life. I hate patriotism, it was a round world last i checked. "To kill for my country"??? heck no! Murder is murder and that's all. Bearing in mind that the US and UK put Saddam in power and gave him weapons? I don't want people dying... regardless of their nationality... People are people. as i stated earlier, i don't agree with beheadings of innocent people, Heck no!! and i certainly don't beleive in soldiers bombing innocent civilians... And, if you look at it, going to war for "Country, GOD etc" is another way form of religious murder...
Think about it... if someone came into your country, to take out a leader that THEY put in power... and take away your weapons that THEY gave you, without any cause, i'd be pretty annoyed too...

Anyways, it's not so much the politics i'm going to talk about... I really don't like it when you say "Islam will be the end of the human race" because it's bashing another religion and culture... We can't place the blame on any single nation or culture because to be honest, we're ALL to blame for the end of the human race. Me, you, that guy who works in the corner shop... EVERYONE because war has only one purpose. To cause the death of other human beings!

I would never die or kill for my country...I dont believe in war

the only person I would die for is my lil one...end off

Amen to that that, my friends is love in its purest

Well shucks, Islam WILL be the end of civilization. Look at it logically. Islam is going to be the cause of the conflict between powerful nations now, which will almost inevitably end up in nuclear war. Hence, it will be the end of civilization as we know it. And I'll bash any religion the way I would Islam, if I felt that other religions would be responsible for the end of humankind. As it stands, they have other faults.

To have such a vehemently anti-soldier, anti-war mindset is simply idealistic and naive. Without soldiers, without war, civilization may well have already ended. Different cultures, arts, sciences all spread through conquests and military expansions. To say anything to the contrary is simply untrue. I don't even know how to express in words the ridiculousness of what you're trying to convey.

Humans, as animals, have it in their nature to fight and kill to survive. Were it not for war and soldiers, we may be living more peacefully today, but we'd be unevolved and stupid.

And the "round world" comment is just morally relative crap. There are times when "live and let live" simply doesn't apply, because you have to realize that some lifestyles are simply WRONG and fly in the face of basic human rights. By that same token, which is more or less "Let them have their own culture and it's acceptable where they are," you must also acknowledge that slavery was, and consequently happens to STILL be, completely morally fine. I mean, what right would WE have to tell other human beings they can't practice a cultural tradition? Wouldn't be quite "tolerant" enough, would it?

Edit-Also, this whole pacifism thing doesn't make anyone a better, more sophisticated, or more evolved person than anyone else. Simply more idealistic and foolish. You're simply refusing to acknowledge the animal aspect of human existence. Human beings ARE animals, and as such, will fight and kill as necessary.

You would say some lifestyles are wrong??? so is it ok to show racist views to others?? like how the KKK do towards black people?? How protestants and catholics do to eachother? How the nazis did on to the jews???? the list goes on...tell me do you promote this behavior?

I can't argue with that... Slavery was a terrible, awful thing... I never promoted it... Heck no...

When you say that it is within human nature to fight and kill to survive, i agree with you... because it is within human nature to kill... But that doesn't mean i have to agree with it... and i honestly do feel personal remorse for soldiers who pass away on the battlefield... because i love each and every human being on the earth...

How about this... i want to keep the peace because i try not to offend anyone... So how about we agree to disagree?

I don't think you could have possibly misunderstood me more if you tried, but it sure seems like you gave it your best.

You contradicted yourself within two sentences, and somehow manage to imply that I'm a racist?

Some lifestyles are absolutely wrong. Any theocracy is invariably wrong.

Edit-Oh come on. You love every person on the planet? First, obviously, you've not met every person on the planet. And there are those out there who want nothing but to bring you harm.

Fine, I'll agree to your "agreement to disagree." I just think you're fooling yourself about your own existence.

"O Prophet! Make war against the unbelievers [all non-Muslims] and the hypocrites and be merciless against them. Their home is hell, an evil refuge indeed." (Koran, 9:73)

"Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it." (Surah 2:216)

"Believers, do not make friends with any but your own people...They desire nothing but your ruin....You believe in the entire Book...When they meet you they say: 'We, too, are believers.' But when alone, they bite their finger-tips with rage." (Surah 3:118, 119)

"Believers, take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends." (Surah 5:51)

"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace you by other men." (Surah 9:37-)

"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)

"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmly with them." (Surah 9:121-)

"When you meet the unbelievers in jihad [holy war], chop off their heads. And when you have brought them low, bind your prisoners rigorously. Then set them free or take ransom from them until the war is ended." (Koran, 47:4)

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and his messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be to be killed or crucified, or to have their hands and feet chopped off on opposite sides, or to be expelled out of the land. Such will be their humiliation in the world, and in the next world they will face an awful horror." (Koran, 5:33-34)

"When we decide to destroy a population, we send a definite order to them who have the good things in life and yet sin. So that Allah's word is proven true against them, then we destroy them utterly." (Koran, 17:16-17)
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Yeah, just don't kill each other, but those nasty infidels... KILL THEM!

You know what? I'm an 'infidel' and I see it as a higher status than some poor delusioned Muslims.

Should I really have to be killed because I don't want to follow a paedophile's word (Mohammad) that he says about 'god' talking to him?

okay..I see you have crossed your wires with me LOL...when I say racist...I am talking about war too...a lot of wars break out at the height of racism...ie-- the war between catholic and protestants...that war went on for over 30 years here in N.Ireland...it all boiled down to racism....

YO back that big boy back up there sunshine...since when did I say I love every last person on this very planet?? are you high?? and WTF am I fooling myself with exactly??

Is it because I dont agree with war?? LOL wakey wakey smell the coffee LOL...just because you believe in it..dont mean EVERYONE should think along the same lines as you

Wasn't talking to you, cupcake. That was an edit to respond to the post made in the time I was typing my response to you.

Edit-Also, I don't "believe in war" per se. I just acknowledge it as an inevitability and the singular thing that has benefitted humanity the most throughout history at the same time as it has been incredibly destructive.

I know i haven't met everyone on the planet... but I love the human race, since love is the quintessential human emotion, and the purest...

How am i fooling myself about my own existence? I'm just living my life and trying to be a nice person

ok then i'll let that one slide...cup cake!!!

Man, how do I manage to get into these heated arguments with people that seem to be getting so close to throat cutting only to have the situation completely defuse itself? This is uncanny.

Anyway, a good time was had by all.

Could i ask my former question again? what do you mean when you say "im fooling myself about my own existence"? Not being hostile, just curious...

Most of my beleifs are spiritualist, so i pride myself on trying to find a deeper meaning to my own existence... do you know something I don't?

Man, saying that I feel bad telling you about what I feel to be the truth. But this is just my opinion.

As I believe I've made abundantly clear, I look at human beings as animals. And as with animals, I don't believe that the spirit or the soul exist. I believe that we're flesh, blood, bone, and nothing else. Humans have noble qualities that are the result, I believe, of a highly advanced brain, and not a soul or anything of that nature.

It's a terrible, terrifying, even close to impossible notion to contemplate(especially when stoned, believe me) that once we die, that's it. That we cease to be and there's nothing left of us but our bodies. It's mindboggling and kind of scary, but it's what I believe to be true.

Well, it's what you beleive, and i respect that... as long as you are comfortable with it, that's what counts... It's true, it is a scarey thing to think that nothing happens after death... I used to think that too... but i hang out with the 'stoner' group and, well... lol i beleive what i beleive... But thanks for sharing your beleifs with me, it provides an interesting insight into how others think

Muslim, I have another question if it's not too much trouble. Do you think that Islam has become corrupt since the time of alis death?

Do you believe in multidimensional realities? Heaven is one.
Read some Near Death stories and it will shed some light, no pun, on what comes next.
More than 8 million people in the US alone have had one and that number was figured about 10 years ago.
Look at www.nderf.org
Lots of stories.

A little off topic here, but....

you "love the human race'? unequivocally? without exception?

Would you invite Ted Bundy, or John Wayne Gacy into your home?
How about Idi Amin? Stalin?
The Ayatollah Khomeini?

While I applaud your tolerance and high aims, I must point out that there are individuals in the human race who would be better off dead. IMO, to make a statement such as "I love the human race", is a little naive and simplistic. And I will not insult your integrity or intelligence by putting forth a hypothetical question regarding what you would defend.

Love may be the purest human emotion, but I must disagree on the quintessential part. It seems, sadly, that belligerance, aggression and sheer hatred is what makes up the majority of the human species.

Id argue that it’s the product of a dieing brain and nothing besides again its interpretation of events and occurrences that lead to misconceptions and false realities


Back to the topic I think it is sadly in the nature of man to be hostile to groups different to the one you occupy and looking at it from a strictly biological view we are social animals and to ensure the survival of your group its is productive to adopt other groups into "your way" or remove the other groups as competition when resources or ideologies are threatened. It’s only cultural and societies deemed ethics that makes it unacceptable.

Now im not saying were all capable of killing of course not however it is within our nature in certain situations and when made shiny under the guise of correctness it’s made a lesser crime to some there for easer to commit

The war in Iraq to me was a resource war neatly packaged by western ideology as the "right thing to do" as to make it a more media friendly pill to swallow I feel this is the case for a lot of the atrocities committed by various religious groups the reasons or the religion may change but at its base level it boils down to a “you are different I want you to be more like me” mentality justified by religion and applied by its followers who really do feel they are doing "the right thing"

I don’t think any group is any worse than any other all are capable of hate and all have followers capable of integrating ideologies how they see fit.

*sighs* why is it that everyone asks me this question? I'm not trying to be rude JMPD, i'm just trying to figure it out. This is the best way I can answer your question:
I don't beleive that people are "born evil"... I beleive that the fates throw certain situations our way that determine how we will act... And depending on how we act in these situations the fates push more and more towards us...
I think what Ted Bundy and those other guys did was atrocious... I honestly do... But they are a perfect example of how humanity can act under certain circumstances... and as much as i love humanity for it's qualities... You can't love something or someone without regarding it's faults either... Of course i'm not saying i agree with what serial killers are doing, heck no... I'm just saying people often overlook the fact that it may not be ALL their fault that they turned out that way... and that's how I love them... for who they were not who they turned into...

And as for love being the quintessential human emotion... Of course it is. We're living proof of that, i mean we're here aren't we? If people weren't in love, the human race'd have died out long ago...

I have relatives that sacrificed their own life’s to free your parents/grandparents from Nazi tyranny occupying your country during world war two. Do you mean to say they were evil and misguided soldiers that had no business saving your sorry arse from having to goose step to the love fest everyday? Did they waste their lives fighting for your right to speak up against war, thank God someone is willing to die for their country and yours.
Irish

AMEN!!!!!!!! Hundreds of thousands of Allied forces spilled their blood to defeat true tyranny--including my aunt's fiancée, who was gunned down storming the beaches of Normandy on D-Day.

Sean

There are no ethics in war. We can pretend and make treaties, but when it come to the fighting war is about killing the other side by any means possible. IMO we should have not gone into Iraq, because:
1. Once we went in there is no way out.

2. I think in time So-dam-Insane would have been kick out or killed by his own people.

3. There were no weapons of mass destruction.

4. We are not defending our country over there we are defending the oil companies.

At this point in the war if we leave Iraq will fall to the insurgents and the people who torture and cut off heads will take over. Anyone who disagrees with them well be tortured and have their heads cut off. Back were it all started.
Rule by religion is such a bad way for a country to go. Through out history it has been proven to only bring woe and intolerance upon the people. Look at Afghanistan, it was unbelievable the way women were treated and if you’re not muslim your dead. We had good reason to good reason to go into Afghanistan.

Something else that came up, would I kill or die to defend my country. Dam right I would, until they pry the bloody shot gun from my dead fingers, even if it is battling my own government.

Couldn't agree more. But I certainly support our troops and those of our allies who have stayed. I want the best for the Iraqi people.







As would I. Take away my rights ... and it's fists up!

Sean

Irish, Sean, i didn't mean to disrespect your relatives... for that, i apologize wholehearedly... OK, Normandy and the 2nd world wars WERE a fight against injustice and tyranny... And for that, i salute them... my great grandfather was in the 1st world war... But I still disagree with war... to me it seems that the war in Iraq was just another way of making money for the US and the UK... I want the best for the Iraqi people too, but I just think that we need to stop young men dying in the streets... I don't want that... I do genuinely feel remorse for those who pass away in combat... But at least in the 2 WWs they were fighting for something... In Iraq, it seems they are just fighting so the US and UK can make money

But I will say one last thing... Please don't bash my beleifs in love... That really honestly makes me angry, since I have been brought up in a very bad family... to me, love is the only way i can save myself... so don't dissallusion me... Please don't...


Again, i meant no disrespect you ANYONE's relatives. I honestly didn't. I will also say that the "hired killers" bit is a product of me being stupid. I shouldn't have said that. And i'm not French... i live in France... but i'm from the UK...

Fair enough.

Apologies accepted, but remember that the right to love itself is worth fighting for.
There is nothing nobler than love for others except the willingness to give your life for what you love.
Irish

Beautifully said.

Well said, Irish... thank you for accepting my apology