The only verses in the whole Bible that explicitly ties God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit in one "Triune" being is the verse of 1 John 5:7


King James version
1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."

Now lets look at the same verse in Revised Standard Version (RVS) of 1952

1 John 5:7 And the Spirit is the witness, because the Spirit is the truth.**

Footnote

**5:7 New Living Translation:
Some very late manuscripts add "in heaven—the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And we have three witnesses on earth".

"This text concerning the heavenly witness is not contained in any Greek manuscript which was written earlier than the fifteenth century. It is not cited by any of the ecclesiastical writers; not by any of early Latin fathers even when the subjects upon which they treated would naturally have lead them to appeal to it's authority. It is therefore evidently spurious."

"His structures are founded in argument, enriched with learning, and enlivened with wit, and his adversary neither deserves nor finds any quarter at his hands. The evidence of the three heavenly witnesses would now be rejected in any court of justice; but prejudice is blind, authority is deaf, and our vulgar Bibles will ever be polluted by this spurious text."

If these people were being "inspired" by God, I wondered, then why did they need to put these words into other people's mouths (in our example, in the mouth of John).

http://www.answering-christianity.com/1john5_7.htm

THis is about the third time I believe someone has started a thread specifically on this verse. I think everyone acknowledges that it's a later addition. Pretty much every Bible you get will have a footnote to the effect that it is most likely a later addition. All I can say is that it's a good thing we have the earlier manuscripts to work off and keep translator's honest.

No self-respecting biblical scholar actually accepts this passage as a legitimate bible verse.

However, I do believe the Trinity is a biblically supported concept, though never so explicitly as in this verse here.

Regards, PA

I assume thats why the verse was "inserted" by the church, so they could support their man made god.

But in reality they used the altered verse to manipulate millions. Its called satans handy work The prince of Lies.

I'm told by seanph and others that America is different, but every sermon I have heard in Australia about this verse, the preacher jumps over it, says that it's a later insertion and we should ignore it.

You're looking for big conspiracies where none exist. This inserted passage isn't being passed off as always there. There's a footnote in every Bible stating it's inauthentic nature. It's not being hidden in any way, though I'm sure there are some unscrupulous preachers that are trying to fudge it over, but that's another argument altogether, methinks.

Where one lie lies, there will be many more to cover it.

The path to distruction is wide for there are many who walk it, yet the gate to heaven and the path that leads there are narrow for there are few who walk it.

Christianity 2.1 BILLION

Its obvious to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

]

The Trinity is alive and well here in the Bible Belt.

To emulate the denizens of the Bible Belt (I live there), "AMEN BROTHER SEAN!"

Ummm ... you did not address me properly, sir! That would be ... SEAN, ME and MYSELF!

Makes one wonder just how many other verses have been added/deleted over the centuries that have not been found.

What's this? delusions of divinity?

What "lie"? As PA already pointed out, all Bibles have a footnote of some sort that tells this particular part is not included in the oldest manuscripts and were apparently added centuries later after John wrote. It's just simple commentary. Nothing being passed off in a lying way. The addition is openly admited to not being part of the original. No secret, no lie.

I agree, most Bibles add a footnote on KNOWN additions......

The problem lies in the fact that the average Christian never reads the footnotes and the Preachers never mention them. Instead they preach the Trinity using that particular verse as "proof"

I've never heard of such a thing. What preachers are you referring to?

Also, how do you know that the average Christian never reads footnotes? In my church, and also people in other churches nearby that I've talked to... very much do read footnotes and discuss it as part of their small groups (as we do at my own church). I think there's much more reading of footnotes going on than you realize. Study Bibles have lots of additional info and, yes, people do read them. I've not witnessed anything like what you're saying here.

This is right up there with xian translations using virgin for almah in Isaiah to cover up the goof in Matthew. Besides, if something is a known "later insertion" (forgery), why not just delete it? In addition, people in the Bible Belt don't, for the most part, even know what a footnote is. "I read the kjv, written in English, the language Jesus spoke".

Strange, when I went to biblegateway.com, all the English translations said the same thing- conspiracy?

Wow, this is shocking to me! You must be in a different part of the world than me... because in my part of the world, Bible footnotes are very important and not ignored in the least.

Then you are among the few Christians that actually read the footnotes. As GM states, most Bible Belters think the KJV with all it's warts and wrinkles is actually the word of god, written in the language Jesus spoke!

...and that JC was white, with blue eyes.........

Stood 6'1", had light wavy hair, a trimmed beard and European features>

Because fundementalism requires that you throw common sense and logic out the window?

But on a side note, PA, it sounds like Christianity is, well, closer to actual Christianity than what you see in the states, or any Catholic Church. Over here, people use what they can to get what they want, which is usually money and/or power. Christianity has been the perfect gateway to those prizes, take for example Billy Graham, Jesse Jackson, and all the other political figures that like to plug Rev. or Father in front of their names.

Oh well though, I don't give them my money or time, so they don't affect me too much. Well, directly affect me anyway.

Peace

I have a hard time believing that.... because I've found that anyone who is serious about the Bible will read everything that's there, not just pick and choose or purposely omit things. Bear in mind, I'm talking about serious people who apply the Bible to their daily lives, not someone who may only occasionally pick up the Bible. I mean, what kind of SERIOUS Bible believer doesn't read the footnotes? Crazy not to.

^^^ And what's the ratio of "serious" Xian's to "Western" Xians. ("Western Xian's" is a term I coined to label those majority in the west that pick and choose what they want out of the bible and church)

Few people are serious enough about a religion to really know or understand it and those that are tend to seperate themselves from the others, congregating in little cliches of their own, not realizing that the majority have no real knowledge or understanding that doesn't come from their pastor/priest/rabbi/imam nor any real desire to exert themselves to learn the truth. Which is probably a good thing for the religions, else the heirarchy would probably find themselves without adherents and actually have to work for a living!

Personally, I don't know any Christians that "pick and choose" the parts of the Bible they want to believe. For Christians where I live, it's all or nothing. As a Christian, I was taught that God's Word should not be picked through, omitting parts that individuals may not like. I was taught that it's ALL God's word. Every Christian I've ever met (locally, anyway) has treated the entire Bible as God's word, never just picking out certain parts and omitting (or overlooking) parts they don't like. That sounds to me like someone who tries to make Christianity fit their own terms. I've never heard of it, except in cases where people branch off on their own (with some half Christian beliefs, and the other half, their own ideas, etc.). That, to me, is not a true Christian.

I don't know. Where do you live? Like I said, if it's a later add-on (making it a forgery), why not delete it?

I beg to differ!

I've witnessed that when people are serious about their religion, it becomes the center of their lives. They make a huge effort to not only to "know" it, but also to understand and apply it. So I have to say I disagree with your opinion on this.

Then most must not be serious...I have found that the religious on this forum and many others that I frequent know less about their religon than do the "non-believers". Very few adherents of any religion get serious enough about it to spend very much time studying. You only have to read the various newspapers the different denominations publish to see that even they think it is a serious trend, one that must be reversed, else Chrsitianity will cease to be anything more than a small group of people with no say in how the culture progresses.

I have to disagree with you rag

People tend to focus on what they believe/like (and it does not have to be religion) and tend to ignore what they do not believe/like.

They read apologetic material ... and the rest gets tossed into the rubbish. And I'm guilty as charged. Wouldn't touch anything--nor would my fellow believers--that questioned my faiith.

Sean

LOL, I'll agree with you on that. Most people on these forums are pretty "in the dark" about a lot of things. I don't think they are serious. Actually, I was talking about the serious ones...and mainly not participants of this forum. The ones I know are all local folks to me, with a tiny few exceptions. For example, the people at my church are all VERY serious about Christianity. It's not a joke to us and we don't treat it as such.



I think the serious ones do bother to study (as I've witnessed in my church). Of course, I wasn't talking about studying though, I was referring to the reading of simple footnotes (which doesn't require a lot of effort or time since most footnotes are very short).



It's known to Christians (at my church anyway) that Chrisitanity will represent a very small group of people by the time Christ returns. It's no surprise and has already been predicted, of which I agree will happen.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion.



I'm only speaking of all the local Christians I know personally. While I realize this does not even begin to cover the world's population, it is still a rather large group of folks. I personally do not know Christians that only go on the parts they want to believe, while omitting other parts. It's unheard of in my corner of the world. If people are different elsewhere, then it's news to me and I'm VERY surprised and shocked by it.

I intended to mean that about everyone with just about everything. People have a tendency to overlook that which they do not like.

Like some of the links I have posted....you put your curser on it and seen where it went right......BUT YOU DID NOT CLICK on it to read it am I correct?


BTW: No disrespect intended^^

That is human nature.

I realize that, but I was speaking about Christians that I know, and about the Christian religion specifically. You replied to comments I made on those specific things. I'm aware that outside my local circle, there could be differences (not all Christians fit the same mold). I'm simply not familiar with how Christians are in other locations. I really wanted to focus on the fact that, at my church (and other churches locally) we take the Bible as a whole, not picking it apart. And that we also read footnotes and discuss them just as we do the scriptures themselves. It is news to me if other Christians do not do this. I find it strange practice not to do so... since most Christians, when you ask them, will tell you they are serious about their religion (or so I've found in my own experience with other Christians I've met).



I'm sorry, did you post some links? I don't recall seeing any. Direct me to your links and I will gladly have a look, although I may have to wait and do that tomorrow, as I've got to shower and change clothes before leaving for Wednesday night church service soon.



No worries... and thanks.

I used to be a Christian, I even went to Private Christian schools grades 6-8 &10 & 11
Toggling between public and private because my parents are not rich, nor am I.

And it was in the Time I was a Christian that I Slowly began to realize what a Lie, I and Those around me were living. I tried to point it out, for all those who live in a spiritual dyslexia, but I guess it takes an individual spiritual revelation for each person to come to understand.

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear this, you foolish and senseless people, who have eyes but do not see, who have ears but do not hear

Ezekiel 12:2
"Son of man, you are living among a rebellious people. They have eyes to see but do not see and ears to hear but do not hear, for they are a rebellious people."

Matthew 15:14
"Leave them; they are blind guides. If a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into a pit."

Matthew 8:22
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

And God will choose who he wants to understand, or perceive. They have the tools yet they dont use them. Eyes to see, and ears to hear. But you cannot force someone to comprehend, Those who understand will and those who wont, wont.

Just like those who believe in the three gods, as one. You cannot explain to them because they are blind, they see not for themselves, they only hear what they are told and believe willingly, because they refuse to see for themselves, God granted them eyes of their own that they may see.

Just like you cannot explain color to a blind person, their world is not perceived in that manner. But can you explain to the blind ones, how to open the eyes rub the crusts off and learn on his own? You can explain; and in doing so they are now responsible themselves. They cannot say in the end "but god I was taught this way, and this is the way I learned"
For god will say "You were given the ability to learn yourself the truth, and the truth you denied! You continued to Live your Unjust Life, in your own Sinful ways!" God is a Just God, and You will be Judged accordingly.

As I said earlier, apparently that's an American thing - maybe the quality of teaching in the US isn't as good as over here. On the evidence that would be highly suggestive, since every single time I've heard 1 John preached, the speaker has ignored that verse altogether, except to say it shouldn't be in there at all.

Did you know zandore, that of all the documents written around the time of the New Testament, the earliest known manuscripts belong to the Bible. If you want to bring into doubt the validity of the Bible on this basis, why not the writings of Josephus or Socrates or Plato or Pliny, who's earliest known copy is at least 500 years younger than the earliest Bible?

Regards, PA

That is what I mean...if you do not look at certain parts of it you can not see those parts that MIGHT be.....controversial (lack of a better way of putting it) and overlook them.

Pick the Bible apart and you might get a better understanding of it.

Did you over look them........



As I said that is human nature.

Point being here is....

The four Gospels were written from 70--95 CE by anonymous authors. Only 7 of the 13 Pauline Epistles were written by Paul. The General Letters--James, 1 Peter, 2 Peter, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John, Jude--all pseudonymous. The Autographs are long lost, the Gospels have been heavily edited (repeatedly) as proven by NT textual scholars, and the most numerous texts--those of Paul--were received through visions and revelation. So, as to the credibilty of the NT ...

"The Four Gospels are indeed difficult sources; their initial selection from the dragnet does not mean that they are guaranteed to represent the historical words and deeds of Jesus. Shot through and through with the Easter faith of the early Church, highly selective, and ordered according to various theological programs, the canonical Gospels demand careful, critical sifting if they are to yield reliable information for the quest."[--John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

"The problems for the reconstruction of the best archetype for the manuscript tradition is more or less identical with the assumed autograph is precarious. The oldest known archetypes are separated from the autographs by more than a century. Textual critics of classical texts know that the first century of their transmission is the period in which the most serious corruptions occur."--Helmut Koester, "The Text of the Synoptic Gospels in the Second Century", in Colloquy on New Testament Studies: A Time for Reappraisal and Fresh Approaches 81 (1989)

"...There is nothing in Paul's letters that either hints at the existence of the Gospels or that even talks of a need for such biographical memoirs of Jesus Christ. Paul, the New Testament says, never saw the earthly Jesus but was totally convinced of his divinity. He was, he says, 'an apostle, not by human appointment or human commission, but by commission from Jesus Christ and from God the Father." [Galatians 1:1 NEB]--John Romer, Testament- The Bible and History

"There is not a single mention or even a hint of Paul's letters in the Gospels. Their vision seems far removed from the practicalities that are spelled out in Paul's letters. His main theme is Jesus' message of God's love for the world and also Christ's assertion that the ending of the world is imminent; his historical view is sharp and certain. In comparison, the Gospels often seem uncertain of their central message and of their central character; Jesus' purposes on earth seem curiously elusive....The Gospels' portrait of Jesus seems to be separated from real time. The central character is set in a rambling series of incidents and sermons, engaged in a mysterious progress revolving around an unstated drama that finally ensures his capture and death."--John Romer, Testament - The Bible and History

"Paul insists that there is only one 'gospel of Christ' (Galatians 1:7), so why did later Christians accept as 'Scripture' four written gospels?"--Graham N. Stanton, The Gospels and Jesus, The Oxford Bible Series (1989), paperback, p. 125

Respectfully,

Sean

In the case of Pliny and Josephus, they were only dessiminating history, Plato and Socrates were philosophizing, none of the 4 were making fantastic claims with no evidence of the validity of the claims. The Gospels were attempting to use mythology (both that of the Jews and their own) to prove their mythology. As the computers in the 70's commericals used to say, **stinted mechanical voice**"Does not compute!"

By "picking the Bible apart" I was talking about people that only pick and choose which parts they like, while completely disregarding or omitting other parts. I was not talking about "picking the Bible apart" as in breaking it down to study it (I completely AGREE with that!!! ). Just not what I was talking about. Sorry for the confusion.

As I've highlighted in my previous post that I don't recall seeing any, yes, I guess I did overlook them. Somehow my eyes just did not see any links. Can you tell me where to find them or re-post them, please? Thanks!

Colossians 2:1-3 states in part, "My purpose is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding," Complete understanding is to comprehend the Truth completely. The Scripture goes on to say, "in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely Christ," Here you are revealed that Christ is the mystery of God. Religious Leaders believe that mystery is meant to be the TRINITY, but is it? Not according to the Scriptures that contain the Truth as a whole. The Scripture continues with, "in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge." So what does that tell us? It tells us that wisdom and knowledge are hidden within Christ; and what is Christ? He is The Word. So, where is the wisdom and knowledge to be found? It is right in front of you in your Bibles. To find it, you must accurately place the pieces of the Great Jigsaw Puzzle into their proper places.

Proverbs 4:7 states, "Wisdom is supreme; therefore, get wisdom. Though it cost all you have, get understanding." That Scripture reveals much. Wisdom alone will not give you the Truth even though it is of importance in sorting things out within your mind; therefore, you must also possess the ability to reason out what is revealed and in doing so acquire understanding. And what is "understanding worth, or valued at? EVERYTHING YOU POSSESS. That's how important understanding the Truth is.

What is the Truth? The Word reveals at 1 Timothy 2:3,4 "This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." KNOWLEDGE bears the TRUTH. But why does it call "God our Savior"? Shouldn't that be Christ? Who is the one that gave the Undeserved Kindness? It is Yahweh. It is through Yahweh's Wisdom that we are all given the chance of Salvation. The part Christ plays as our Savior, that is borne out in the next Scripture of the same Book of 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 "For there is one God" it does not say more than one because He is the Almighty God - Yahweh. The scripture continues, "and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in its proper time." What is a mediator? It is someone that acts as a go-between. Someone who tries to settle a dispute between two other parties. The dispute is SIN. The two parties are Yahweh and Mankind. The Mediator is Christ. So reason it out. How can Christ Mediate between his Father and Mankind if he is indeed Yahweh? There would be no need for a Mediator if Christ was Yahweh. But he is not, and so the need exists. But what is meant by "the testimony given in its proper time."? It meant that those Chosen by Christ are in a covenant with him and his Father to spread The Word's message of the kingdom and the Warning of Judgment to those that are of both positive and negative energy. That is what your Stewardships from Christ are all about.

If Jesus christ were Yahweh, would he have made this statement at John 5:16? "So, because Jesus was doing these things on the sabbath, the jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." It's pretty obvious that Christ differentiated himself from his Father Yahweh in that statement, isn't it? Why? Because he told ONLY THE TRUTH. He knew he himself was NOT God Almighty. He did not try to fool anyone into believing that he was. Now go to Verse 18 and look at what is revealed: "For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." In their eyes (the Jews) they felt he Jesus had made himself equal with the Creator. But had he done so? Let's read Verse 19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does." Does that sound like he was equal to Yahweh? Or, does it sound like Jesus was in submission of his Father's Will? At John 14:28 Jesus said, "You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you. If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am.'" If Jesus was Yahweh, he would be equal in GREATNESS; but he clearly stated that his Father is GREATER than he is. He also clearly stated that he was GOING TO HIS FATHER. That alone tells us that his Father was somewhere else, not playing the 3-headed part of a Trinity which included the personage of Jesus. It just doesn't fit in the Jigsaw Puzzle.To believe otherwise is to believe a LIE.

In arguments for Christ being Yahweh by those that have no understanding of the "Mystery" about Christ, they often say "Jesus was the human part of God." If that were so, then why, if Jesus is equal to his Heavenly self as Yahweh, that (his other self Portrayed as Yahweh) in Heaven knows things that Jesus, his human self, does not know? Mark 13:32 states: "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." Now think about that. How could Christ NOT KNOW if he was also God Almighty serving in a third role as the Son. It is absurd and ridiculous to believe such a myth as the Trinity. However, the negative energy that bounds forth from those Satan has deceived, will often counter with this: "That's plausible because Christ is God's human self. That would be his nature not to understand everything." But, they seem to have a lapse of memory - for Christ went his way to Heaven and is stationed next to his Father (next to his other self I suppose, to their way of thinking) as pointed out at: 1 Peter 3:22 "who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand - with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him." If Jesus was God Almighty, he would not have need of submitting "angels, authorities and powers" back to Himself - He would have already had them. It would be redundant. It is Ludicrous to believe such a thing could be part of a "mystery" about Christ Jesus and his Father Yahweh. Since Jesus returned to his Father, and resides on the Ladder of Authority just beneath Him, he too is again Holy Spirit. So, why would the Holy Spirit (a part of Yahweh's Active Force) that is made up of both Yahweh and Christ, why is it that the Holy Spirit would not know all things? Jesus went beyond being the human Son of the sacrifice. He is Spirit again, just as he was as the Word, but with "angels, authorities and powers" subjected to him. The Apostle Peter knew who Christ was. He knew he was not Yahweh. He stated at Matthew 16:16 "Simon Peter answered: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." That was in reply to Christ asking Peter who he thought he was. Peter did not say "You are Yahweh in the flesh." He knew Christ was the Son, but did not interpret him to be God Almighty.

There are many more examples to prove the Trinity is a falsehood. But the KEY ingredients are the understanding of this "Mystery" of Christ. John 1:1-3, 10 reveals the first part of the puzzle piece: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down:

"In the beginning" is proven to be the Word's beginning - not ours. Proverbs 8:22 "The Lord (speaking of Yahweh as the Word's Lord) brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deeds of old." That Scripture reveals a part of the "Mystery" of how the Word came into existence. Then drop down to Verse 23 "I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the world began." Was that the Word's binning, or our beginning? It was his beginning. Because the other piece of the puzzle is at Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Not created by Yahweh Himself - but through His Masterworker or Craftsman, the Word. Proverbs 8:25 before the mountains were settled in place, before the hills, I was given birth, before he made the earth or its fields or any dust of the world." Why did the Word say "before he made"? Because he used his Father's knowledge, Wisdom, and a part of the Active Force imparted to him to be able to accomplish that feat. So, it can be said Yahweh created everything. But the Scriptures reveal that the Word created all else. Colossians 1:15-17 bears that out as part of this "Mystery." "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers, or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. To know that he created everything else aside from himself and his Father, we read Proverbs 8:30 "Then I was the craftsman at his side." Craftsman definition: " A worker skilled in a particular craft." From the definition you can see that the Word's Father taught him his craft. It was a gift from Yahweh to his only begotten Son. Through the Word, all other things came into existence.

Back to John 1:1-3, 10 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning....He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him." Let's break the first puzzle piece down:

"and the Word was with God," was also answered in the Scriptures at Proverbs 20.

"and the Word was God." But does that mean he is Yahweh? No. It means literally that the WORD was like Yahweh in every way. The EXACT IMAGE of GOD. He was created a God, but in subjection to his Father. He was also God's spokeman to the angelic armies that he - the Word later created as part of the thrones of power that were bestowed upon the angelic forces. He is a throne of power of the Cherubic Order. There is another for the Seraphic Order; the Powers Order; the Celestial Order; the Azmon Order; the Hammuel Order; and there are many many more Orders of Holy Angels. All of the Holy Angels, Holy Ghosts - all authorities and powers were made subject to Christ for following through on the Creator's Plan for the Salvation of Mankind. Also, to reveal that the Word was indeed a craftsman, at Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness..." Yahweh was talking to the Word, His Craftsman. He was giving him directions that he wanted the first Man to be created with their qualities and their attributes. It wanted it that way so that Mankind could worship Him with holiness; for that's what the Creator is. He is Sovereignly Holy. The Word, being in His exact image, is the same.

Isaiah 9:6 reveals Christ's role in his Kingdom: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Those are the titles Yahweh has bestowed upon his Son Christ Jesus. Note that he is a "Mighty GOD" not Almighty. Why is that? Yahweh is Supreme in all of Creation. If Yahweh ceased to exist, so would everything else. All life comes forth from the Creator. Creation's continuance depends upon Him. To reveal that Christ is in submission to his Father even after the installing of Christ's Kingdom: 1 Corinthians 15:27 "For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ." That Scripture is pretty plain in dispelling that Christ is Yahweh. If Christ was Yahweh, there would be no need to reference that God was not subjected beneath Christ. Then the next Verse 28 says: "When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all." If Jesus was Yahweh, it would not be necessary to subject something back to himself that he already had to begin with. It makes no logical sense.

At Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14 it states: "As I looked, thrones were set in place, and the Ancient of Days took his seat. His clothing was as white as snow; the hair of his head was white like wool. His throne was flaming with fire, and its wheels were all ablaze. A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him. Thousands upon thousands attended him; ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him. The court was seated, and the books were opened....In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven. He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence. He was given authority, glory and sovereign power." This Scripture reveals Christ ascension to the Heavenly Court before the presence of his Father Yahweh. There would have been little need to record the event if Christ was indeed Yahweh. But, he is not. He is His Son and our Savior.

I do not remember posting a link in this thread yet.

I was talking about more than just this thread.



Seanph and Mako....

Oh well no wonder. LOL.

Thought I was losing my mind for a minute there.

Misguided (at times) perhaps but not lost.....