I have had a few recent conversations on evolution that completely confused me on other peoples views. Do you beleive in God, or do you beleive that out ancestors came from a primordial pool after the big bang?

Personally i beleive in a bit of both. I beleive that God created the universe and the big bang, and then he created apes and decided they needed an "upgrade" and created humans.

I was just curious about other peoples' beleifs.

LOL, I have no opinion on the evolution thing but I like your thinking. Either way it goes I can't see how God could get mad at you

The honest truth is, we'll never know exactly how life 'began'...however, I do think that a primordial soup creating the first amino acid, which in turn led to proteins, cells and so forth, is far more logical to believe than thinking there is somebody up there who created 'everything'.

I think, as humans, we're supposed to be challenging the world and our view on it...we're a curious species by nature, and religion was a product of primitive people trying to explain what they themselves couldn't. It was far easier for them to believe that there was a 'god' that made it rain, or made lightning, than to actually investigate anything with the limited knowledge of the world they had at the time.

We know far more about the world now than they did...yet it never fails to amaze me that some people still look back in time 10'000 years and actually take what people thought was the truth then over and above what modern, up to date minds are telling us now, especially since, in this day and age, things are actually investigated and proven before hand, rather than nothing but superstitious assumptions that created religion.

I believe in evolution I'm afraid...I used to be a little back and forth as far as god was concerned, but I've come to the conclusion that the bible is as much a mythology as Thor and Zeus. It just managed to survive longer.

http://snopes.com/religion/chalk.htm#jackchick

i think God created everything, and directly created humans, as we are made in His image, then created a few animals and plants, and gave them the ability to adapt and evolve, but humans were all God, thats what i think.

I can’t say I do or I don’t.
But one thing that puzzles me about evolution - take apes for example – is that evolution hinges on the theory that the next step in the evolutionary chain is more adapt at survival, and hence why the species before it died out! So if this is the case, and we came from apes, then why are they still around? And if the ape/monkey/whatever evolved into us, then where are the stages in the middle? Evolution takes the next step, so it seems illogical that the middle section of this step is missing, and we have the monkeys at one end (who should have disappeared, according to Dwain’s Theory) and us at the other!

I agree completely with Serafina.

and to Kryso, what I think about the humans evolving from monkeys and why there are still moneys is that it's probably more along the line of that monkeys/apes AND humans evolved from the same primate ancestor and HE is extinct. So we just all branched off from the same species and went seperate ways, we didn't evolve from teh same species of ape we have here today.

Eveything eventually comes from the same ancestor. It's an enormous tree with so many branches that split off in so many ways!
Dogs, wolves, raccoons, foxes, weasels, and bears are all related by the same ancestor that split off and evolved differently. Thats why we still have some 'in-between' looking wild animals like raccoon dogs.

I read somewhere that dolphins and horses each came from the same lines!

Evolution is a very amazing thing.

Moonfox speaks the truth.

We didn't evolve from apes in the sense of chimpanzee type creatures (maybe, back when we first appeared we looked something like that), but rather from the same common ancestor...it's also quite likely that chimpanzees are lower down the evolutionary ladder...it is actually quite amazing to look at chimpanzees and see how many of our own characteristics and behavour are mimiced in them.

Strictly speaking though, we all evolved from a prokaryotic cell floating in sludge So way way back in the mists of time, everyone's related to everything, from a boilogical standpoint.

I know this is hard to believe but I've got this from a source that.......we didn't actually evolved from monkeys or chimps like we've thought so.We're actually.....some sort of a result of an experimental research by aliens called the Illojims (those blonde hair ones) and that we're the seventh civilization here on Earth already.I really dunno what to say here but.......if you'd connect to all those Sauroid reports saying that they're here to take thier homeland back,thier homeland being Earth and adding that we humans aren't suppose to be here at all.......I really have doubts here.I'm not saying this is entirely true but this one really confused me the first time I heard it as I'm not a sceptic.....

Okay my friend, I'm a firm believer that the most logical probability is probably the correct one...so let me ask you which is more logical...

That through the process of natural selection, we evolved from a creature not unlike our closest genetic relative, over the course of a few millions years, for which there is fossil evidence of the other version of 'humans' that came before modern man...

...Or that we were created in test tubes by a nation of space age snake people? The idea of which I believe came about from David Eike (not sure how to spell the second name), who suffers from a rather worrying brain condition after a sports injury led to substances from his bone marrow getting into his blood...whereupon he started telling everyone that the world leaders are shape shifting lizard men

Aiks,I'm really confuse myself too .The first time I heard this theory,I was like .......really??But my head's full of probability,including the non-probable ones too .So.....I dunno ,perhaps this is indeed nothing but rubbish.I'd certainly hope we had evolved from the monkeys,and not from the hands of some alien.It's just....not in the syllabus

Ok sera explain this "natural" evolution, the crocodile, which dates back to before the dinosaurs has been around ALOT longer than us, it took what maybe 100 million years (not sure on the exact age of the crocodile species) to achieve its evolutionary status, but it has taken man from the firt upright man to modern homo sapiens less than 1.5 million years to achieve intelligence. Why is it that a species that has been evolving since the dinosaurs not also evolved to a higher state. Explain the missing link between us and primates. Explain how in the space of 10,000 years we have changed from cave dwelling raw meat eating fur wearing dudes, to highly technologically sophisticated intelligence in that short space of time, bearing in mind that the earth has been around alot longer than we have. 10,000 years is a blink in the eye of the earth. To me thats sounds like highly accelerated evolution.

Now lets talk god, christian faith was first recorded in the hebrew language correct? and their name for GOD was Elohim, which in hebrew translates as "those from the sky" what could that mean i wonder, perhaps a alien civilisation did visit the planet and play with our genetic structure, causing highly accelerated evolution, and perhaps we called them god because they may have created us? God supposedly created us in his image correct? Thus shouldn't he be a human too?

i look forward to any comments. if anyone is confused i'll repost in a way you can understand.

The crocadile thing is easy enough to answer...reptiles have a far harder time adapting to a new environment than mammals do. The very same reptiles we're seeing now will probably remain unchanged for millions of years longer, because they're incapable of moving to a new niche...natural selection has to skip them over, because they're as specialised as they're going to get. Moving into another environment would likely kill them.

Why did man achieve intelligence so soon? Hard to say...apes, in general, are the most intelligent animals on the planet, however I do agree there's no obvious reason why we should have evolved in the direction of intelligence, while the other greater apes seem to have moved in the direction of muscle...I guess it's all down to the niches we inhabited.

The truth is, I don't know, and I'd rather not guess...however, evidence of human intelligence does far predate the hebrew language, and to base your entire arguement on that, which was written many, many thousands of years after we'd reached the stage of 'modern man', is perhaps a little silly, no?

We've just been blessed, through the slow process of natural selection, that greater intelligence was needed for our survival. We were the first animal to make tools, and remain the only animal that uses tools to make other tools (this is, in fact, the definition of mankind).

However...there's nothing 'accelerated' about it. While it's true anything remotely resembling humans physically only appeared a few million years ago, evolution has been going on for about a billion or so years...we're not some random anomaly, we're the apex of what nature's been moving towards all this time.

However, if you want to kick natural selection in the head, forget about adaptation, fossil records, or logic in general...then yeah, sure, aliens made us of some kind of galatic whim. Makes sense

Im a hairless ape. I'll admit that its not as interesting as creationism or alien roots, but its the truth.
Ya want some proof of evolution? well look around you. See the cities that have sprang up? See the automobiles? Evolution is still happening!!

I agree with nuthinparanormal!!

i agree with Seraphina, but i also believe in God, just do not really believe in the bible saying he created the earth in 7 days and created man from his own image, but i do believe in his existance.....but i like the first post, upgrade from ape LOL thats a good one

I think the best proof of evolution is DOGS.
But this is human-controlled evolution, where selctive breeding instead of natural selection drastically quickens the evolution process.
Humans befriended wolves a long time ago by sharing meat and hunting together. And then as time when on, by selectively breeding wolves humans eventually created hundreds of different breeds of dogs that each look and act differently.
By selective breeding for the type of work the dog would be used for, and the environemnt it'd live in, we force-evolved wolves into everything from Huskies to Shepherds to Chihuahuas.
All dogs genes go back to the wolf- In fact if you do a DNA test on a dog it comes up as Wolf! So dogs are really still wolves inside, just evolved by humans to look and act differently depending on what we needed the animal for.
Every instinct in dogs goes back to the wolf. The way herding dogs circle the sheep and hypnotize them into their pen. The way dogs turn in circles before laying down to 'flatten the leaves on the ground' even if its on a soft pillow.
That's why dog trainers usually study wolf behavior b/c thats what dogs are, modified wolves.
We are still 'making' new breeds today using selective breeding to alter appearance.
Evolution in nature works the same way, only it's a MUCH longer process b/c noone is deliberately controlling it like we do with our pets.

Dogs...cows...cats...in some countries even people

We've been selectivly breeding different animals for years for specialised purposes...in nature, it's also occured in finches in the galapigos (finches from different parts of the island are vastly different in characteristics from the others, because of the different environments they'd had to evolve into, though all can be traced back to a single, normal finch).

The finches might be a better example though, since it wasn't influenced by humans. The difference between selective breeding and evolution is that in selective breeding, humans choose the characteristics they want to be passed on...this also means that weaknesses are passed on with it (eg. arthitis in labradors)...while in evolution, nature chooses them by which creature is better suited to survive, and pass its characteristics on to the next generation.

Most of the animals we've bred wouldn't survive in the wild.

This is true...however, in nature, you'll find that the characteristics that are passed on are those that make the animal better equiped for survival. Evolution and natural selection are all part in parcel with the idea of 'survival of the fittest'.

Some characteristics are an anomaly...however the example you cite of some bizare four armed gene wouldn't be evolution, it would be a mutation...natural selection is the emphasis of a far more widespread (and natural) characteristic across a species...the ability to run faster, or greater physical strength...that stem from natural variation, not mutation from an outside source.

Well folks, here's my opinion.

First of all, Darwin's Theory isn't bullet proof, it's like the name says: theory!
The general idea around it is assumed correct, but science has evolved ( ) a lot since then. I think that people still have a hard time thinking of humans as animals; or that in any given time, some ape that came down from a tree and gave origin to a species that explores the atom and the universe.

Some things you should consider: first of all, we come from a branch of beings that has usually a bigger brain volume than any other. As mammals, we have (we as all the mammals in the planet), let's say, a better notion of ourselves has conscient beings, which gives us a bigger ability of considering others like us conscient as well. At different levels of conscience, of course. That's why mammals have such intrincate family bonds, the need to live in societies, the need of acceptance by others, rituals, language, etc.

Then, there is an interesting thing. Usually species that evolve from others tend to compete for the same basic things, like food and territory. That's one of the reasons why evolving species come from disapearing ones. They both need the same, but the evolving one is better equiped. Sometimes species that disapear often go away in a blaze of glory, leaving no offspring. Sometimes species (like roaches) don't have the need for radical changes because they are natural survivors. Gators have undergone some changes over the eras: they're smaller than they were. That usually happens to all the species.

I believe that mankind originated from an evolutionary path followed by various species of ... i don't know the specific term in english, but if anyone knows portuguese what i'm trying to say is hominideo.

There is the proof that different species lived in the same time, like Neanderthal and Sapiens, in Europe. And that the intervention of certain species gave origin to the disapearing of others.

Like someone posted here (sorry, can't remember your name ), we had the tools for a larger step in evolution than any other.
We used our hands to build tools, we used our memories to pass experiences as knowledge, we used fire for our purposes (and that was very important), we developed strong social relations based on codes, we developed language (that some animals also have, but not at a written level).

But we still are animals. There should be no doubt about it; the simple fact that we forget it makes us disrispect all the others that also own the planet.

Dont be so quick to place humanity on top of the evolution chart . You arent going to see any polar bears living in heated buildings. Why? Because unlike us, most animals have already developed a means to survive in thier habitats. Humans are fragile. The only reason our brains have developled is because it was the only chance we had for survival. That by no means puts us on top.
I have heard that the average sea tortiose has a longer life span than the average human. nuff said.
I agree with Bruno in that we are just animals.

lol...um...well that's hardly a theory, nobody needs to agree with it, it's a biological fact.

All organisms on the planet are either an animal or a plant...I know which I'd rather be

And it's true what you say to an extent...we're far from the most specialised animals on the planet, but we are the only animal that's evolved the level of intelligence where we don't need to be...we can alter our own environment to suit us, rather than the other way round.

Perhaps God used evolution to cultivate humanity. I certainly know we don't look like what we did before the flood. But then again that is because of insest. If one mans family (noah) cultivated humanity with their insest for centeries we are bound to look different.

Its pretty apperant to me that god exists as I am actually a christian ( oooh a psion a christian ? Yes , psions can be christians . ) It actually states somewhere in the bible that god gave creatures the ability to evolve . But never actually turn into a whole new species . ( I have no idea where it syas this i just know it does , the bible is huge so cut me some slack ) . For example , we know about breeding such as dogs breeding to create new breeds . But they still STAY DOGS . to date we have never seen or witnessed anything close to an entire new species being created through evolution , and the idea of mammals coming from reptiles is plain stupid since we would still contain some traces of reptillian DNA .

If i may interject one query that has nagged away at my humble brain for quite some time.

It would appear to me that every animal on earth, with one exception, is bound up in the so called "circle of life"; the co-existance of creatures, for instance, that hunt and that are the hunted. The hunters are fewer in number and the hunted are greater, so the balance means that both survive. Co-exstance. Man does not co-exist.

Sure, animals feed of one another, but they do not pump poison into the oceans, destroy the rainforests, or enjoy raping and murdering their own kind.

Surely, if we have evolved naturally we wouldn't be putting the earth into such peril.

I don't know if God, Mother Nature (for want of a better word) or aliens had a hand in our evolution - but whoever it was made a big mistake.

It's all very depressing - i think i will go and sit in a dark room and weep for a bit.

Sorry, folks, the name of Sagan's book where the reptilian center is mentioned isn't "Broca's Brain" but "Eden's Dragons" or Dragons of Eden", i'm not shure about the title c'os i read them in portuguese...

Like all species humans evolved as a result of environmental pressures, natural selection-the process described by Darwin meant the most fittest of our ancestors, those who had adaptions most appropriate to their surroundings, survived and were the ones who passed on their genes.
If we could travel back say three to four million years ago to East Africa we would discover an animal that was possibly one of the first to show a distinguishing characteristic of our line, although small and chimp like with nothing obviously human about their behaviour, a glimpse of the animal would reveal the special characteristic it passed on to its descendants, the ability to walk upright...this animal australopithicus afarensis the most famous fossils of which is the individual remains of one that has been named 'Lucy'.
Two million years ago saw the emergence of a collection of early hominids that would co-exist for half a million years, each was successful at surviving an era of dramatic change, by adapting its behaviour and diet. Homo rudolfensis, Paranthropus boisei and Homo abilis were all ape like in appearance, with fur on their bodies dark animal eyes and no hint of language, for boisei the future as extinction but for rudolfensis and abilis the future was intriguing, although there is no direct evidence from which hominid we descend it was certainly one that shared the same characteristics of these two early hominids, habilis is the most likely to have the accolade of being our direct ancestor.
Creatures like boisei were specialist feeders, only able to survive with a plentiful supply of the roots that they fed upon, Homo Abilis on the otherhand had developed the very human trait of being able to turn his hand to anything, in other words he was able to adapt to the changing environment around him, adapting his behaviour to meet the new challenges, and also his diet, meat was becoming an increasingly part of his diet. Homo Abilis also created some of the earliest known tools, although crudely made, an event which marks the emergence of the human capacity not just to understand the world we live in, but also manipulate it.
more to come......

Aww !! Emmy you rock why arn't you a paleantologist ? (Spelling)

and one more rather silly question for the Alien theorists on the board .If we are some kind of Alien test tube experiment , then where did those Aliens evolve from ? Was it a primordial soup or were they created by some God ?

i believe there are infinite worlds and infinite Gods, and that planets are recycled after the previous primary species destroys itself.

Well, i think it would take a lot of time for that to happen, more time probably than we will ever be here on this earth...

I don't mean to be annoying (but i am, right ), but the idea that you have for evolution is a little bit extremist, like turning fishes into birds . Now, i know that is just a form of example, no one is expecting to see their gold fish grow feathers all of the sudden. Some common marks pass on to the next species, if they evolve from a slightly different one. It doesn't happen like "Ok, you had this, it didn't work, let's give you that." That's not only what evolution is about.

Specialization, the thing that first drew Darwin's attention to the whole idea of evolution occured in the same species of birds. It takes zillion years for a change to happen naturally; or something that forces it comes suddenly; or an accidental burst of gamma rays from the sun or some nearby supernova. Or plain extinction.

That's the reason why we don't witness evolution. We extinct some species and we put a lot of pressure on other species habitats. Some aren't so well prepared to deal with it as others, therefore evolution takes little steps, but ours are bigger.

No other species has the power we have to change (and destroy) our habitat, right?

In fact, we don't even have an habitat, we live everywhere!
Life takes a lot of time to perfect itself and rarely gives second chances to the unfit. It only gives challenges...
What do you think of the whole idea of birds coming from dinossaurs, which after all weren't all reptiles; some might have been warm blooded?
Why are you so sure that god exists for the simple fact that you're a christian?

I like this...

I think you'll find trying to find evidence of god is like trying to find a peice of hay in a massive stack of needles...painful, and usually fruitless

Eveolution on the other hand is a scientific theory that has been investigated,t urned inside out, looked at, studied, questioned, and ultimately settled on as the most logical, and therefore probable, origins of life...that's why they teach it in schools, instead of making everyone read the bible

There is a wealth of actual physical evidence to support evolution, from fossil samples, families of animals showing common ancestry, more advanced life moving through stratums, as well as natural selection itself, which we can actually observe today, being in many ways evolution in fast forward

As physical 'evidence' of God, you have a book, written thousands of years ago, with the ignorance, superstisions, and lack of understanding of the world of that period of time. Looking at it as a means of finding the truth is like trying to use Aristotle's idea of 'levity', which he merely stated as fact without conducting any expiriment to prove it (until it was proved wrong by said expiriment many decades later) to pass a physics exam

Our knowledge of the world, and our perceptions of reality, are constantly evolving as new theories come about, and new facts are proven...many of which, I might add, contradict the bible. The fact that you can use a peice of mythology to argue against investigated facts is somewhat astounding

Perhaps in a few thousnad years, people will think The Lord of the Rings really happened...

As for humans being allowed to 'do whatever they please'....I had this same debate with another christian, and I fail to see the sense behind it...the bible places man as the lord of all beasts, able to do whatever he wants with them. The idea of cruelty against animals being wrong is actually a far more modern belief and it, along with the new idea that we should be working to protect our planet instead of destroying it, did not come about from the arrogance and dominance that the bible gave to mankind

what you just mentioned there can probobly be argued about forever . Their is enough information to argue about whether its god that exists or evolution but it will always come down to one thing ... we start claiming the other side of the debate i using false evidence . In other words , christians can claim the studies are inaccurate and don't use nearly enough information and that their is no proof god does not exist . And then evolutionists can say it is scientific and that nobody can see god so he cant exist ... both sides generall points in the argument cancel each other out and start again . the only way out is to agree to disagree .

But their are some things I didnt like

No, I'm afraid not...*pats him on the shoulder* I know how you feel my friend, the news hit me pretty hard too

oh, a new post, good, something to answer before bed *cracks knuckles*

Okaaay....

According to the Vatican Information Service in a news release on October 23, Pope John Paul II was reported as saying that evolution is "more than just a theory." This seems to mean, despite the tenuous wording, that he now considers evolution a scientific fact. His written message to his science advisers, the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, speaks of "a series of discoveries made in different spheres of knowledge" which have convinced him to make this bold statement supporting evolution and suggesting that his millions of followers do the same.

Thats the Pope. Even he, in all is holiness, cant deny evolution. oh.. wait.....I smell a conspiracy..

...*blinks*...Catholics ARE christian dude...the word you're looking for is "he's not protestant" Both are branches of the origonal christian faith, that broke apart because of a few disputes about the particulars of their beliefs.

sorry , meant to say foursquare christian . But you do get the generall idea , catholics only believe in half the same stuff foursquare christians do . Just as a note when people say christian they are ussually talking about foursquare and not calvinist , catholic , or anglican sects .

Im really starting to like Xeno.

SAME 2 u .


PS . geez do us and seraph have anything better to do today ? my genius school set it up so we have monday a school day and we get tuesday off , then go back wendsday . cant plan anything else ! LAME .

Actually, I need to sleep *looks at watch* As I have University tommorow...however, I shall return to this arguement tommorow, for I am stubborn

*sighs* I wish I could go back to school. I guess once the kids grow up. I get to be the old guy at the community college. Ill take philosophy so alteast, if all else fails, I can still think deep thoughts about being unemployed.

The evidence of prophecies coming true are kinda long to list , but you can find them online pretty easily if you know where to look .