I've been an active member of Unexplained Mysteries for over two years now, especially in the field of Spirituality. I've seen numerous threads asking why you believe God exists, or why you do not. Now, however, I'm turning the tables. If you believe in God or are skilled in logic and debate, I wish to not only know why you believe in God, but I want you to give me logical and scientific proof supporting the existence of God.

I do not want to hear scripture or passages about God being used as proof in any way what-so-ever, since that proves nothing other than the people who wrote such things believed in such an entity as they describe it. I want you to give me facts, evidence, and whatever else you can dig up from books, the internet, and other sources. Why does God even have to exist? If you want to try and prove something to me and in turn understand your own reasons for believing, then this is the thread for you. If you are unsure of the objectivity or other reasonable traits of your proof, simply try and think if it would be used in a court of law. If it would be overturned and not able to be used as evidence, do not use it.

So, come on: give me a rational argument with logical, scientific, and other proof that supports the existence of God. If you do not believe in God, I also encourage you to give me proof why he does not exist. Why do you believe? Why should I believe? Believers on both sides of the spectrum can learn a lot from this.

I'll be eager to see your replies! Let the artillery fire, but be cautious and please do not flame, nitpick, or rail others because of their personal beliefs. I'm not taking a side and supporting anything you post here, I'm simply interested in reading why you believe, evidence for or against God, and why I should believe in God as well, or the opposite. Note that I will comment on posts asking for further explanation or analyzing them. Discuss respectfully.

Look bro, WE DONT HAVE 100% info on how God looks like!


this is gonna end up burnt.....lol

Maybe not, but through discussion we may discover a greater range of answers, hence the purpose of this thread -- not to prove it one way or another, but to learn more about the nature of the topic in general. However I do encourage very heartfelt responses, I'm interested in hearing all I can in support of God, although I am a nonbeliever myself.

God can not ever be proven by science because he exists outside of the realm of science. Science is merely the measure of physical creation it’s self. As love can be broken down to its scientific components as in hormonal balance and neurological reactions to stimuli and pheromones yet it can never comprehend the essence of love itself nor duplicate it because it to exists within realms outside of consciousness.
If God could be proven by science as you seek it would limit him to his own creation.
The inventor is never subject to his invention.
I will share more with you after a good night sleep.
All the best
Irish

well i see not getting any answers or anything perspectively solved...but an arguemrnt, but i respect that! lol

this is gunna turn into one big flame war.......

[quote name='The Raven' date='Jul 3 2006, 03:49 PM' post='1255550']
I want you to give me logical and scientific proof supporting the existence of God.

I do not want to hear scripture or passages about God being used as proof in any way what-so-ever, since that proves nothing

...................................................................................................................................
[Like the Rolling Stones sang "you can't always get what you want"
Are you looking for closure,If you have been on this sight the last couple of years and your asking a question like that then i don't know what to say.Except science isn't absolute. Also i have not been here long and saying you have been reading posts the lasts couple of years on spirituality means nothing when you follow it with with scriptures mean nothing.Sounds like you are nullifying points for an argument before they are even brought up.Or are you just bored

This question has been posed so many times, and the answer is always the same - there is no scientific way we can prove God does or does not exist. Don't you think if it could be scientifically proven either way, it would have been by now?

Good luck to any who try though. i'm sure there'll be some who do try, but as Irish says, you can not scientifically prove an unscientific concept. How can something that hypothetically lives beyond our physical reality be proven or disproven on the grounds of tests done in the limits of said reality?

Regards, PA

I have to protest. If God does indeed exist (and I imagine the real answer is beyond all of our imaginations), there should be a measurable force of some kind that scientists can measure. I don't understand why scientists apparently refuse this challenge as useless and trivial. There should be some eneergy measurable to an instrument, perhaps which hasn't been developed. Remember xrays? Atoms? Did they not exist until measured by science? On the contrary to your opinions, I suspect God will be very pleased when we have advanced to the level of science that we can detect him.

I am simply going to point out something.

Everything in our 'reality' meaning everything we perceive through our senses to be real has a beginning and an end, Time here exists. Time Light and Gravity are all relative to one another, You will know this if youve read any of Stephen Hawkings books. Clocks closer to the center of the earth will read differently then those of clocks farther from the center of the earth.

As we shall see, the concept of time has no meaning before the beginning of the universe. This was first pointed out by St. Augustine. When asked: "What did God do before the he created the universe?" Augustine didn't reply: "He was prepareing Hell for people who asked such questions." Instead, he said that time was a property of the universe that God created, and that time did not exists before the beginning of the universe.
Pg. 8 from A Brief History of Time

Logically everything that is part of our reality has a beginning and an end. I mean we really dont need to argue about that simple little silly fact its evident everywhere. Including our physical bodies. Now with that basic fact down, what existed before everything that we know and perceive now, exists? Dont just say it always existed because we know that nothing can exist for ever here, time exists, so even if it takes 1,000,000,000,000,000,000 years our sun will supernova. everything that had a beginning here, will also have an end. And if it is not Gods existence you see before the existence of our universe, and you think "Bob" existed before the universe and he created it, then what created "bob"? "Frank" created "bob"? Well then what created "Frank"?
The only thing by definition that has no beginning and no end is God, and only with God in the equation do all the peices fit.

A well-known scientist (some say it was Bertrand Russell) once gave a public lecture on astronomy. He described how the earth orbits around the sun and how the sun, in turn, orbits around the center of a vast collection of stars called our galaxy. At the end of the lecture, a little old lady at the back of the room got up and said: "What you have told us is rubbish. The world is really a flat plate supported on the back of a giant tortoise." The scientist gave a superior smile before replying, "What is the tortoise standing on?" "You're very clever, young man, very clever," said the old lady. "But it's turtles all the way down!"
Most People would find the picture of our universe as an infinite tower of tortoises rather rediculous.
Pg. 1 A Brief History of Time

Turtles all the way down, lol.

But to get back on topic...

Well, think of it this way. Scientists themselves say they do not know the origins of life, of the universe. They only have theories. Not to mention that some scientists say DNA could not have formed in the time it has been given. Also, the theories for the origin of the universe is messed up. There are big bang\big crunch cycles and the such. But science itself proves such things to be improbable. There has to be a beginning. I believe that beginning is god.

I'm not going into details or anything, but hopefully people get the gist of what I said. Also, for the record, I am not religious. I believe in a god, but not god as others preach it.

Nice thread

My proof is personal and i cant prove it - i really wish i could...i really wish you could bare witness to what happened to me 8 years ago when i was 14...ill never forget it and its all the proof i'll ever need but the fact is i cant prove it to you. I didnt really care for God then-
now he's always on my mind. The truth was i wasnt really even looking at that point but he presented himself to me in an amazing way that held any logical explanation...trust me...i looked for every form of a "natural" explanation and there was none...i could lie to myself and pretend there was one- but if i see the light i'll follow it.

That would be very hard to do Raven...as you know there is no hard evidence or scientific proof..and there never will be....if there was Raven...when we (that believe) wouln't have what is known as a faith?? right??


I can't argue there LOL...as i agree withy you on that one

Maybe you should have specified which God you are talking about.....there are thousands to chose from.

The "God" that is the only "God" in Christianity/Judaism/Islam. If some wish to attempt to prove the existence of other Gods, go right ahead. The concept in general can be taken in a similar fashion.


I see that you can write down great ideas, but try and back the quoted sentence with logical proof. You first say everything must have a beginning and an end, then you say that God does not. This is a contradiction unless you can prove it otherwise, and contradictions don't work in Science. Maybe you should take a look at my IMS Theory to understand why I believe the multiverse is infinite and not bound by the 4th dimension alone. I am really looking forward to hear how you can logically reason God is infinite and eternal.


Hence the entire purpose of Science, the find, measure, calculate, and understand things not measurable, found, calculable or understandable before. I really liked Irish's explanation of how God is beyond science, however to prove such a concept as his through science would contradict the concept. This is what I don't understand, since everything can be analyzed by science, since science itself is human curiosity put to work. Do we not theorize and discuss God? In this sense, God can be philosophically analyzed, and therefore, by definition, can be and already is being scientifically analyzed. "





I am doing exactly that, good observation.

I've heard a lot of great, interesting concepts already, and I encourage you to keep on posting. However, some are just concepts. I understand the need for theories and concepts, but I'm sure you can find some sort of evidence to back yourself up with. Can you give me evidence as to why God is beyond science? Can you give me evidence as to why God is infinite and eternal, or why he is not? How is it logical to believe such an entity with human-like qualities even exists? Are humans, if not the only "intelligent" lifeform in the universe, somehow special, so God acts like one? You've got a lot of explaining to do.

Without posting any Bible verses......there some out of the Bible that show there are things he (the Christian version of God) can not do and does not know.

Firstly I would like to state that It is not my "Idea" or "Theory" That everything has a beginning and an end,

Secondly Only things which are confined by the laws of this world do. Simply explained by the fact that In this 'reality' we have something known as time. Its existence is provable, because time occurs at different rates where there are variations in gravitational pull. Light, Time, and Gravity, are all relative to one another, this is why a Black Hole can Bend Light and gravity (and time in theory) Thus the "time travel" theories which have spawned from black holes. Since we see that a black hole can bend light, its safe to assume it also bends time (in what manner i dont believe we know yet)

You can find more on that on google. Here is a link

And this link shows how acceleration is proportional to time, and that time slows(and mass increases) as one accelerates, or where gravitational pull is greater (closer to the center of the earth)

Meaning where there is less gravity time goes faster (you age faster) Meaning when the astronaughts were on the moon they aged Much faster then they would on the earth since the moon has a much lower gravitational pull.

God as the 'creator' of the 'created' our universe, and everything we percieve are all bound by these laws, and principles its what keeps our planets spinning off into space or spinning into the sun(and countless other things we take for granted).

Fairly basic.

God as the created is not subjected to the rules we are because he is beyong or greater then what he created, Just as if a little boy was to draw a picture, he would not have to become 2 dimensional.

You wanted proof that god is not confined to the laws of his created and the answer can be found in the story of the boy and his painting.

secondly if god was subjected to his own created he would then not be god. God does not Need things, and nothing can manipulate God. Simply because he is, and he is what he is and he does what he does, and maybe there is no logicle reason. It would be like a 2 dimension creature trying to understand a 15th dimensional being, its not going to happen. Could you explain what its like to a stick figure drawing what its like to be 3 dimensional? God is above us beyond our comprehension. Why is he? I do not know, I am a mere 3 dimensional being Lol. If God made mistakes he would not be God.

Dictionary definition of god

god ( P ) Pronunciation Key (gd)
n.
God
A being conceived as the perfect, omnipotent, omniscient originator and ruler of the universe, the principal object of faith and worship in monotheistic religions.
The force, effect, or a manifestation or aspect of this being.

I stated earlier that god does not make mistakes, Meaning Yes he meant to make Lucifer, knowing full well that he would try to twist all of his creations, Knowing full well that lucifer would try to overthrow Him ect ect ect ect.

This means that All this suffering and pain that we endure now is all for a reason, everything has a purpose, It also means that since god knows everything god knows the future he knows if we are going to heaven or hell, even before we existed.

Many years ago, I was going to a christian Private school, and we were learning about the aspects of god. (what god is and what he isnt what he will do and what he wont) At the time I thought it was wrong, because I felt as if we were shoving god into a box putting a leash on him and saying "Sit boy sit!" But today I realize, that is not what we were doing at all. God Can do anything. He Can do absolutely ANYTHING. But the point of this is GOD WILL not do evil things, not because he cannot, but because that is not what he does.

I believe that God created suffering, sin and evil, for the few that Make it to heaven. Of course God could make us spoiled children and give us everything. But I think a more loving parent would give the child opportunity to earn those things themselves. Its like the climb to the top of the mountain. Poof your at the top, yay... But on the other hand, you have to climb to the top, you get scrateched up, your tired, ect. But when you get to the top, you have a feeling inside you, you feel like *I did this!*; and the view is That much more beautiful, Youve endured the hardships, youve fallen and got back up, not everyone makes it, making those that do, that much more special. I used to be a mountain climber, So this means of thinking strikes a deep chord inside my soul. And when I got to the top, I had those feelings of achievement. If somebody flew me to the top in a hellicopter It would be pointless, I would feel "What the hell am I doing here? Lets go get a coke" ungreatful, or uncaring. You ask climbers "Why do you climb mountains," and most would respond "because its there." Why do I endure harships through life, try my best to be righteous; so that I can reach the top and be made complete? Because its there.

I believe, All in All, Deep inside of each human is a longing to be with their creator. Right now we are in gods presence, weather we realize it or not. What is death? Seperation. Seperation of our souls and physical bodies. But for many there is a second death, and that is Seperation of God and Soul.

No matter How I put it Raven, the only true answer for you, is between you and God. If you truly want to be with God, be happy, be righteous, then that is exactly what you will be. But if you want to be something else, anything else, that is what you will be.

Really? What is it then? Its certainly not a fact for numerous reasons. According to the BBT, time was created when the BBT happened, and science doesnt claim that whatever created the BBT had a beginning, because since there was no time, there could be no beginning. To say that would be a contradiction, kind of like what you're doing when you say everything had a beginning, and then say that god exists without a beginning.

Btw, did energy have a beginning?



Whatever existed before the BBT would not have been confined by the laws of this world, thus it didnt necessairly have to have a beginning.



But thats not proof that god created everything. Maybe Duonons, a highly reactive particle that exists outside of the universe, caused the BBT... (Yes, I just created the word in order to put a name on the object instead of saying "something". It remains, however, no less likely than god...)

Therefore you admit God is bound by the laws of his own creation, since the dichotomy of Good and Evil is a purely subjective human concept. If God is perfect, logic would state that God does not do good or evil. He either does nothing or everything, again abiding by the laws of this dichotomy. Please explain this to me.

^Or perhaps we have our human concept of good and evil because God has instilled those concepts into our nature *resists the urge to quote BIble *

just as you can look at a painting, you grasp the concept that there was a painter (even if you never see them)...just the same, there was creation, meaning there was a creator.

Also, one only has to look at how complex our anatomy is, and how children are conceived to realize there is a God.

Where there is good, there is bad; where there is love there is hate...

Also, God has revealed himself to me and He is very real (so are the fallen angels). I don't think God wants to be scientifically disected, hence no way to physically prove His existance. ...it is "fact" to me, that if you ask God for wisdom, He will give it.

The Aboriginies...The first "documented" humans that roamed the earth at least 40-60,000 years ago believed in a God that created the Sky, Ocean , Plants and Animals. It is in human nature since day one- its not a lack of explanation even the very advanced of the "dark ages" believed in a God.

Hmm, when I watch National Geographic and see God's creations (lions, tigers, etc) survive by tearing into the flesh of other animals and humans and eat them alive, I don't see any evidence for a loving, caring God.

Oh and before you try to explain that death and decay only entered the world after original sin, I have two words: carnivorous dinosaurs.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens have been around for approx. 200,000 years. That's a conservative estimate.

Can you explain why God waited 196,000 years before deciding to reveal himself to Abraham and his "chosen people"?

What happened to all the millions of people that lived before the Bible was written?

What were they, chopped liver?

It kind of a pointless argument neither science nor religion can prove or disprove the existence of god

for me science can only suggest that certain mechanisms i.e. evolution, Bbt ect are more than likely the most probable process based on observable evidence that can be cooberated by any party either for against proposed ideas

It cannot say conclusively that god exists or it doesn’t there is nothing to suggest either way
What it can do is show how process credited to god regarding origins of man and the universe cannot be taken literally

It is in the nature of man to see and think in a linner manner to expect cause and effect when this is not necessarily the case when regarding certain areas of science. Effect can precede cause when quantum physics is concerned this is a troubling concept to some

I see the laws of thermodynamics used in argument against science mainly evolution in order to do so you would need to show the following

1. Define the initial state of the biosphere, or any part of it, as it existed at a time before the evolutionary changes in question took place. Let this be state 1.
2. Then define the final state of the same system as it would exist after the evolutionary changes took place. This would be state 2.
3. Carefully define a suitable, reversible path joining the initial and final states defined above.
4. Correctly evaluate sys as the integral of dqrev/T over the reversible path in step 3.
5. Correctly evaluate surr as the corresponding entropy change for the surroundings.
6. Evaluate the sum, as sys + surr in hopes it will come out less than zero

The same can be applied to the big bang as the initial state would be zero I find it vary hard to see how any laws have been violated . A more reasonable assumption would be these terms and terminologies are only used as evidence for creationist’s concepts as to give some vague credence to an otherwise erroneous argument and are not based in science and have no scientific merit and can easily be shown to be false when one challenges them

Again I truly feel that science cannot prove the absence of god only that literal occunts of origins cannot be taken as truths or a literal representation of creation there is simply to much concrete evidence that suggests otherwise

I will be honest to you all, there is no physical way none of us can explain to you that he does exist. I wish, and all other Christians, that we had prove to show you so you'll see that He in fact does exist.

Tell me, can science prove whether a father will catch his child that takes his or her first steps? Can science prove whether your mother and father will be there when you most need them?

No, I believe it cannot. You simply have faith which is trust.

God does not have to explain himself, or leave physical prove that he exist. But, you know what? Look all around you, look at what all these people believe.

These people believe in God, angels, demons, ghost, creatures that are not recorded, UFOs, different dimensions, etc. And do you have any scientific prove that they exist? Say you believe in UFOs and not any of the others. Why do you believe in UFOs? So many pictures out there, so many people's experiences, maybe you had an experience yourself. And so many other reasons you could choose to believe why.
But, if you were to look at so many other people that believe in all the others, research it, you'd find the same thing: pictures, experiences, personal experiences, etc.
Does that give justice to them, or could they all just be making it up or having mental problems or just confused?


You state that you are not religious, but want us to support our belief in God with prove, yet do we come to you and ask you to give a logical explanation why there is NOT a God, why you think life's a one way trip, you die and that's that.
Men did write the Bible, but men also created science. You believe in the book of science, we believe in the book of faith.

You disbelief in God probably has a reasonable explanation, but explain it without using science.
You ask us to explain it without our book of faith, and I'll ask you to explain it without you book of science.

Perhaps science is the devil's tool to corrupt us into believing only what we see.

Look at all the miracles that happen in life, look what happens in tornadoes. Recently, in Rutherford, TN (which I have family there and seen it myself), a tornado hit my family's street and not a single person died! A whole house was picked up and crumbled into pieces but the family ran into their closet and that was the only thing left standing. Have science explain that. Why were over a dozen houses simply destroyed but everyone in them where alive with no injuries at all?

I'm sure one could say science has not gotten advanced enough to explain the mystery of the tornado, but if we cannot even explain our own planet, how do you believe we can even begin to tap into anything that could remotely show proof of God?
Explain why more intelligent animals must sleep while others do not? Explain with scientific proof and logical explainations why our planet is the only one to support life that we know of.

You could not explain that as much as we can explain why God created dinosaurs and now they are extinct. Maybe they were like a prototype and we are the finished product. Who knows? There's proof that an asteroid wiped them out, and people ask "If God was so loving, why would He kill them off?" Maybe God raptured them as He will us? If you look in Revelations, they speak of asteroids hitting Earth.

The fact of the matter is that nothing can really be explained. People that support the evolution theory, give a reason on how the body does know to change and why. What causes it? Merely the environment?
If you look at every single person, we all live in a variety of different environments. Throughout human existences, why have none of us grown sharp claws? Why have we no fangs? If we are predators, explain the shape of our teeth and the puny little canines we have. How does evolution explain that? With some fancy words, but we don't know.

And yet, if you want to research on some biblical events, such as Noah's Ark that was found on the same mountain where recorded in the Bible and exact measurements, you'd find out that it was found in the 50s. So, maybe God is leaving those of you who are hardcore skeptics clues about His existence. Also so many different ancient animal droppings.
Could it be just a hoax? Or a concidence? Can people petrify wood to make it look more realistic? Can science do that?

I pray that you will come to see that he does exist. God works in our lives, but it is up to us to choose to see it or not. I ask you if you truly want to know the truth, for you to stop reading right now and push all your skeptics aside, all your doubts just for one moment and try to talk to God because he is listening. He cares truly about every one of us. He has to, how many of us would put up with all our sins and our doubts and our insults?
Please try, I beg of you. Those that do not believe. What do you have to loose? What if you're wrong and when you die, you stand before Him and see the truth? I swear to you, if you are sincere when you pray to him, that you will sense him and you will feel his presence.

Just look around, can all this just be by some toxic cloud that formed some soup that formed creatures and worlds and suns? Look how men try to predict weather and see how wrong they are.

Science cannot explain anything neither can logic. We will never know everything until we die. Just look at it this way, if you're not satisfied. When you die, you'll definitely know for sure. As those of us with faith.

He's holding his arms out to you, all you have to do is take those steps towards him and touch his hands and he will catch you.

I apologize to you people if I have offended you, but I believe you being offended is a small price to pay for you saving your own soul.

The Aboriginals are the oldest "race" that still exist today...Although homo sapians have been around for longer than 60,000 years theres no "homo sapian" race that we can distinguish from then and recognise today. The aboriginals we could recognise then and today- they are the oldest "race" on earth.

God revealed himself to the Aboriginals in his own way- otherwise they wouldnt believe in a God. Infact the belief of the creator God in an ancient aboriginal viewpoint is much like the Bibles Genesis...In terms of the creator creating the skies- clouds- landscapes and animals.

Seeming the world is constantly changing Gods "revelations" have changed with the people of the time...Since the beginning of mankind people have believed in a God.

The people that lived before the Bible was written are all fine and dandy in my opinion they are in Gods hands for they still believed in him in the way they could understand. Im sure God revealed to himself to the aboriginals yet seeming they have no written history we can never tell - but it is fact they believed in God - so who is to say what convinced them...there may have been a messiah of ancient times.

But you forget science and its related books are based on observable testable evidence that can be tested and cooperated in the absence of said books where’s as you have already shown your texts require no such hard evidence and are based solely on the “faith” of the reader

Please don’t assume that because it doesn’t make sense to you or that you do not know enough about the mechanisms and principles involved that others are so naive science can and does explain so many mechanisms and process you have mentioned it is just your lack of knowledge regarding such principle that fuels your doubts again ill say that science only shows that the literal accounts or creations as depicted in your bible cannot be true it does not say there is no god such ethereal concepts simply put are best left to philosophers not scientist



You Cleary don’t understand the principles involved or the mechanism by which evolution works do you understand the involvement of genes and DNA?

Again i see this lack of understanding of principle and mechanism all of what you have mentioned can be explained if you would like me to explain evolution and show you where your misconceptions have lead to the errors in your post ill gladly do so just pm me

You make reference to our planet being the only one for life and at present you would be correct in doing so. But more and more exo planets are being discovered around other stars each week and it’s only a matter of time before simple life is discovered else were even the possibility of it being in our own sola system. What will happen to your faith when this happens? You see it’s a dangerous game to base a belief on a stastic of one is it not?

resists the urge to quote BIble
PA..........but what about the "TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL"?

It was a joke aimed at the OP which stated no Bible verses.

And because there are no Bible verses allowed in this thread, I will not answer that here

you make an interesting point ramster the belief in some kind of god or deity does seem to be a common trait within most cultures some are more aggressive in this belief than others but its is there non the less

for me the frequency of this belief in cultures leads to 2 possibilities 1 its something in our biology a coping mechanism or some other gene orientated feature or 2 a god or some kind of external force exists apart from what we see and know today an interesting thought on both accounts

BC I think it is more like trying to explain that which is not understood.

If one was to take a television back in time....say 200 years and there were signals to receive....would people of that time think it was magic or there was little people in side?

Yes to a degree but that would fall into the coping mechanism category 1 of the 2 possibilities I mentioned as would the whole faith concept and could be described if found to be true a part of our biology an evolved mechanism as to aid the better understanding of complexity found in our environment

I can see here that you are trying hard not to understand what ive written

notice my "secondly only things confined to the laws of this world do."

You mention the BBT, Big Bang Theory.

The Big Bang Theory is that is that "Bob" I mentioned in my first post. Just as the turtle must be standing on something so must the BBT. Unless its Big Bangs all the way down. Lol. And if you were to say that I would say you are just as helpless as the woman who said that.

If God did not create everything then Who/What did? And if it was not God that created everything what Created that.

This is why I believe Logically we can conclude that God does indeed exist. Unless you believe its just turtles all the way down. Then nothing can be logically concluded by you, and I'm waisting my time in this thread.


If we were to believe something as rediculous as this we would still have to put in to account.

What created these "Duonons" Just as I stated in my first post

And by the topic of these whole "Duonons I can tell that you did not read my first post at all, because that was what it was All about; and by concluding that I can guess you did not read my second post, because it is longer and more complicated.

Desty...Have you ever thought of how things look from a spetics view?...just asking...reason why I am asking, is because I don't think I have had the chance to ask a religious person this question...please dont think I am getting at you...I am not...I mean this in a non sarcastic way

Without God, things probably look very dull, bland, boring, empty. But as long as they are alive they still have a chance. As long as they are alive they are in the presence of God weather they realize it or not.

Death is Seperation and the 1st death seperates us from our physical body, the second death seperates us from God.

So perhaps maybe I see everything full in color but when he reads my post there are spots missing and things dont add up, but that would be because he is looking at it through the wrong 'perspective' I guess you have a good point.

Trying to explain to a skeptic about God is like trying to explain to a blind person what colors look like.

Edit: P.S. Im not religious Im spiritual, but I know what you meant

Desty...as a believer, I agree, that life looks dull without God...but only because I happen to believe in God..

I would just like to add...that life doesnt look dull to those that dont believe....because to them..there is nothing to see, hear or touch..when it comes to God...therefore, they go through life as normal and as best they can

Pretty much just like those of us that do in fact believe in God. ... only difference is...we rely on God...they dont!!

I can see it from both ends..I always have done...I guess I always will do...

Anyhoo thanks for the reply

On the contrary i would argue to attribute everything to god is dull and lacks understanding and depth

To know how a plant converts sunlight into energy, the beautifully symmetry's in physics to see how the iron in your blood was formed in the heart of stars to me is far from dull.To just flippantly attribute all this to an ethereal concept without any true foundation to me is just a cop out and in some cases an excuse not to think

The same "logic" can be applied to "prove" that god had a creator...



Would you say that god is less complex than man?



I can see that you once again cover your ears to what I'm saying.



What does that have any relevance to?



Maybe those particles I mentioned, duonons. Maybe they existed before the universes creation, without beginning.



Well, you are indeed wasting your time in this thread, because you seem to ignore any true logic and continually spout your own "logic".



Rediculous? Why?



Nothing... Perhaps they simply always existed... they had the same capacity for non-creation as your god...



As I've said repeatedly throughout MY post, I said duonons would have the same ability as you attribute your god for existing without creation. If you had actually read my post carefully, you wouldnt have asked me what created duonons in this post...

Okay, here we go again.

Just because people believed in whatever the God of Christianity is, doesn't mean he exists.

I don't believe in a universal creator in the same way others do, I believe that there is no one true God, but that there are aspects of the universal consciousness in all of us.

By my beliefs, the diety is scientifically proven, because the diety is energy. We have found, documented, and catalogued what I believe the divine is, but then I do not have the same idea of the divine presence. All gods and goddesses are part of the universal consciousness, as energy and thought. Energy has been scientifically 'proven' but I humbly state that I don't have the same beliefs as others. Your God is not my universal consciousness.

For most of the people who have replied, God is a concrete figure that lives in the sky, for me it is energy and life.

Hopefully we can get back on task now.

Cheers,

Morian

How can you prove he doesnt exist?...That is the WHOLE point in FAITH...is believing regardless of the proof...KEY WORD - FAITH

how can you prove he does?

Umm I cant..I never said I could LOL..thats is my whole point to begin with...I have FAITH...if you knew what FAITH actually meant, you would understand the whole idea...hope you dont think I am being sarcastic

No, Science cannot do this and this is not the purpose of Science to begin with, it is the purpose of divination and other occult practices degraded and denounced by the Bible. Mathematics, however, can use probability to predict the possibility of events.


Here is a good quote for you, from one of the greatest icons of pop culture, The Beatles: "Living is easy with eyes closed, misunderstanding all you see."



Alright. I do not believe in God because it is irrational and illogical for a nearly infinite number of reasons. Logic and reasoning skills are not science, simply tools of discovery inherent in all life. If a living being did not have reasoning skills to weigh choices, life would not sustain. If you are going to try and say that I can't use logic or reason in my argument, you are an utter hypocrit. The main reason God is illogical and irrational is because Nature itself is the greatest source of knowledge and example that we have. No where in nature does anything remotely similar to God exist other than in the imagination of humanity. We have learned everything we know from observing nature, beacuse it is our home and it is the system we must look to in order to find out how the world works, because in essence, the aspects of nature -- not just the forests, mountains, etc -- are the very basic truths.

You obviously lack an understanding of science itself to make such a foolish claim. Maybe you're closing your eyes to the powerful system of discovery and understanding, because it goes against what you believe blindly, using the excuse and veneer of faith to justify your righteousness that gives you hardly any more credibility than a sophist. Maybe you should read this rule: "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it’s true, or because they are afraid it might be true."


It is known closests not facing an outer wall of the home are one of the safest places to be in a tornado because the outer shell of the house takes the main force of the impact caused by wind and debris. Since a tornado is not concentrated in one area for a long period of time, it is reasonable to assume the closet would probably be left standing.


Probability, chance, other factors you are excluding for the sake of your argument.


And to think that you would not even know other planets existed nor that the Earth is round without Science. You're not only taking the knowledge you already have for granted and assuming it's common knowledge that's always been known, but you're ignoring the fact that there are billions of stars with solar systems in the known universe. Scientists have not yet even come to a consensus on what life really is. The probability of finding an Earth-like planet supporting Earth-like life is quite reasonably likely because of the sheer number of planets and chances, but remember that we are dealing with exponential numbers that even God would have a hard time crunching.


Things can be explained alright, however I am a supporter of the belief that absolutes absolutely do not exist. A paradox such as this negates the use of absolutes, however does not state that things cannot be 99.9% repeating proven, nor agreed upon by the majority of humanity. Because probability exists, absolutes cannot exist. That's my reasoning, at least.


Simple. For one, this is not how evolution works. For two, we have no need of fangs or sharp claws. What makes the Homo Sapien and common ancestors different from other creatures of the Animal Kingdom (Yes, we are part of the Animal Kingdom) is that humans, instead of relying on powerful physical mechanisms, have learned to recreate the tools of other living beings because of constructive thought and reasoning. We are insolently seen as more "intelligent" because we have been required to use our "intelligence" to survive instead of parts of our body that aid us, such as strength, speed, etc. Human beings are by no means frail little creatures and can become, physically, powerful foes, but are no match to animals with the natural defenses of strength or claws, such as the bear, without using our mind to recreate tools that they use.


Once again with the old "You must be saved!" hogwash, however it is wholly ineffective without being able to quote the Bible. It's like watching a mouse battle an owl.


If on judgement day or in death I see him and he judges me, so be it -- I will have conviction in my own beliefs based on my own values and morals, not the illicit fantasy created by others. If God deems me a sinner and that I shall be sent to Hell for my impudence, God has shown he is not only loving, but is intolerant, and is therefore not omnipotent and perfect if he must commit acts of evil as well as good. I will not falter iin my beliefs because of oppression, fear, or bible-thumping. If your God is so omnipotent and powerful, why must you use such inhumane tactics to force people into believing. This is not love, my friend -- it is greed.

Tornados work in mysterious ways.



Why are there so many people dying of disease and starvation every day?

Time....

Time is what i would loose precious moments that could be used to have those extra seconds or minutes reading to my daughter or sharing a loving moment with my Girlfriend. Instead of praying to someone who will not talk back. Talking to someone who will damn you for the slightest little mistake or mishap you make that does not involve praying or giving your undivided attention too him. I understand that for some of you that god plays a very important role in your life and that is good for you because it brings you some sort of peace or happiness but i would rather spend the extra little seconds or minutes of my life doing something constructive or something that i enjoy without having to every now and again pray to god to thank him for something or tell him how much i love him. God just seem's to me like a ego maniac who seem's to want people to boost his ego or he comes across as insecure needing someone to love him or know that he is there or we will be punished if we don't follow his rules or if we choose to believe in something else. I don't believe in him but i don't rule out the possibility that i could be wrong i'm not going to be sure of myself like some other who say i know god is real or i know god does not exsist because the truth is we don't and i never believe people who say well god appeared to me or god spoke to me so i know he is real because if god wanted us to live the way he wanted us too he could just speak to all of us and say look i'm real its up to you to believe in me or not.

No it cannot, You did not read what I wrote, Notice I said only the things subjected to the laws of this realm or reality must have a beginning or an end

With that said, I'm done with this thread, If you think you have something logicle to say I would be more then willing to hear it, Send a PM, However if you are just spouting random illogicle ideas, and trying to argue with me. Or you just want to tell me about how its turtles all the way down, or how the world is flat, then please refrain from PMing me.

Stellar is not out to get at you personally...he always has logical questions and gives logical answers...like for example

if you where to say... - The is a God

Stellar will ask you to prove it if you can

OR

If you where to say ... There is NO God

Again Stellar would ask you to prove it

that dont mean he is getting at anyone...h does this to make people think....everyone that knows him, can vouch for this...when you get to know him a bit better, you will see what I mean.

Umm... first of all, that wasnt even addressed to you...



And notice how I said that whatever existed before the creation of the universe (I termed them "duonons") were not subject to the laws of this universe, thus they would not have to have a beginning or an end... but you argued this. Nevertheless, that really has no relevance to what I quoted, because the basis for that logic was that complexity equals creation, which is why I asked him if god is not more complex than his creation...



Didnt you say that earlier?



I have not done so yet, so what leads you to think that I will begin?

Is a man who dissapears in front of 10,000 people enough proof of God?