Established physics does not allow for any paranormal event. If it did I don't think we would call it paranormal. Science is based on matter and the belief that reality is objective. It is an extremely useful discipline but when it is adopted as a belief system to describe reality it creates false boundaries that limit the exploration and understanding of the natural world. It has it's place but to often is used like a religion that blinds whoever puts all their faith in it.

There is more to reality than the matter and energy that science has discovered. That should be intuitively obvious. Yet we constantly have people saying "there is no scientific basis for that", as if that is all that needs to be understood. Many people cannot limit their beliefs to a single system of thought that fails to describe reality. And science does fail to describe reality.

Science has thus far been unable to quantify the nature of consciousness. We have not even found the source of consciousness. Without consciousness there would be no science. Science is a subset. Consciousness is the superset. The subset that is science can assure us of the truth of certain facts and prove possibilities but cannot define what is impossible. Consciousness on the other hand has no known boundaries, it always leads science in any new discovery, it is the state of the art tool in reality exploration.

Fear of the unknown is the most pervasive of human emotions. It's no wonder why so many people find needed comfort by placing their faith into limiting belief systems. If you can accept the truth that most of reality is unknown, and that belief systems limit your reality to someone else's dogma you may discover that consciousness has capabilities that exceed the scientific systems of measurement.

Please don't expect members in a Psychic Phenomena forum to accept the limitations of the scientific belief system. Most of us are here because we reject science as the arbiter of reality. Posting merely to say that mainstream science does not support another persons experience or viewpoint is pointless in the context of this forum. Everyone already knows that, that's why they are here.

If a new member starts a topic claiming to have Fruitcake-kinesis most of us will assume some type of delusion but denying the possibility is the result of a belief system. If you know for a fact that it is impossible you have deluded yourself and bought into a belief system that is incomplete.

Well this is a public forum. So skeptics can post too. I do wish the old psychic section for people who believed they had powers was still up. That way the xmen could talk about their powers with out disruption.

i agree,

its good to have a good dose of skepticism and critical thinking, but ususally here it goes to far...

ImOne

You, and many many believers seem to think that skeptics are afraid to face the "unknow" or accept the "truth".

This is not so.

Skeptics will believe it if there is proof. So if someone tells a skeptic:
"I can freeze water with my mind."
of course the skeptic will not believe because there is no proof. There is no evidence. There is nothing at all to suggest that it is true. Everything human kind knows is against this claim. It goes against logic. Also, science knows exactly why and how water freezes. Science knows that there is no way to do it with the mind. Sure, there are things we don't know about the mind, but billions of humans have existed and not one documented case of <instert>kinesis has occurred. Ever.

Now, if someone tells a skeptic:
"I think there is a black hole at X location. Here is why I think this is so."
that skeptic will accept it as a possibility, because there is evidence.

Even if science does not know everything, <insert>kinesis has absolutely nothing going for it.

Wombat, In your case I think you are afraid to be a skeptic. And you don't know what the term means.

A skeptic is a person who approaches a subject with skepticism (disbelief, etc.).

not many of new sciences have alot going for them...thats what makes them interesting,,, there not completely known, theres room for discovery

and wombat, i must ask, why are you on this forum, it seems like a waste of time for you

Funny thing is Science has gotten farther than Paranormal or psikiddies will ever get

ImOne - without counting your past experiences - tell me how believable this is:


A teenager.
Telling you he can shoot fire from his hands.

When YOU yourself, as a teenager - thought you had supernatural abilties, and had grown out of it.

Then keep in mind, that every single open-minded kinetic person (I have seen on the forum) have seen the light and have said "I see that it was just a silly stage I was going through" a few months afterwards.

That's true, but psychic phenomena is not a new "science", and so far nothing has been proven or generally accepted.


I like unsolved mysteries

And because we get to solve them

Yeah, forgot to mention that

There has been nothing like that in my past experiences. It is not something I would believe without proof.

What proof did you witness?

Ah, now you see why we're so skeptical

I do, always did, and I respect that more than you know. I have always been skeptical concerning anything I don't have direct experience with.

Macro-PK and Fruitcake-kinesis is something I would need proof of before I could accept it as real, but I am unable to rule out the possibility. If I did that I would be a believer of non-existence. That would be wrong to do from a scientific point of view.

Well that's like saying that possibly 1 + 1 = 3

yeah... exept for the fact you have numerously times "solved" these mysteries, so for you, there is no mystery, just delusional teenagers


you got it, i dont belive in PK any more than you do... i just think that the assbagery gets to be too much

Wombat

If a skeptic approaches a subject with disbelief then surely they are biased against that subject as much as protagonists are in favour of it.

As ImOne said, imagination leads people to discover whereas skeptics favour the comfortable position that discovery won't be achieved.

Skepticsim is the religious centrifuge of repeatable science. 'We know all that there is to know and we'll write book after book repeating it.'

But the world will keep surprising us all and skeptics will silently give ground until the next hoax comes along.

There is a line between science and belief...Belief is to the point of gullibility. Science is not.

Science reigns supreme, not belief.

I believe you are afraid to face realtiy for some reason. I am sorry if you had bad things in your life. It doesn't mean you need to create a fantasy world.

There is NOT a line between belief and science, there is a gulf. Limiting your knowledge to science is like wearing blinders.

Placing your faith blindly in science is akin to following a religion. The biggest difference is when something is proven wrong science will make a new belief, over, and over again. I can't count how many time I've seen people duped by science.

If anything is supreme it is consciousness.

You place your faith into someting that has never had one shred of evidence. At least with religion people have something to base it on.

Are you trying to learn to be a medium or something? If so you should go back to pseudoskepticism. At least you were good at that.

most of these topics are the same, and the same things are said in each one. which must mean they are true, but paranormal stuff doesnt have to have a scientific basis, thats the whole point in it being paranormal, it really only needs scientific evidence and explanation to be accepted, but accept it or not, it doesnt mean its not there.

An individual will not be a skeptic until they know what the subject at hand is. If the subject at hand is freezing water with the mind, and that individual knows that freezing water with the mind is impossible, that individual will be a skeptic. But you can't be a skeptic before knowing the issue.

This could be true only when you talk about inventing things, because you need to have a good imagination to tackle the problem from many angles.

However, when studying something existant, or studying wether something exists or not, evidence and reality lead to discovery, not imagination.

And if you knew anything about skeptics, you would know that they are much more willing to logically solve issues and discovery than believers. I mean, believers go out of their way to ignore basic stuff that has already been discovered.


Go up to a couple of scientist and ask them: 'Do we know everything there is to know?'
I can assure you that all of them will tell you no. What the hell do you think scientists are for if everything is discovered?

You have also obviously never read anything scientific. You should know that most science today is based on findings of the past.

Outside of this forum, which is generally filled with delusional teens, I don't know a single person who has been surprised by anything "paranormal".

And you can stay the total believer. You still believe in Santa, right?

That's called 'bettering knowledge'.
Sure. Science makes mistakes, but it backs up its claims.
It is just outdated sometimes.

I love it how you badmouth science for being wrong once in a while - due to being outdated, or just a group of people's mistakes.
I'm sure you've never been wrong, have you?



Oh yeah, like that guy who had cancer.
They just took his tumor, and din't give him anything in compensation
They stole from him!
I bet he wants his tumor back.

I can't count how many people have been duped... because I can't imagine any being tricked by something without a 'supreme conciousness',
And I can't count how many people have science to thank for their lives.

And hey, don't like science? Get off the damn computer!

Science explains everything around us. "Psychic" powers and "Paranormal" powers have done nothing but cause arguements.

I say that all "psychics" should go play teen superheroe somewhere else and let the scientists find things that are remotely useful.

Science allows discoveries, but not gullibility It's the perfect mix of skepticism and belief. Whilst your total belief in xmen and jedi powers is ridiculous! No basis and proof what-so-ever!

I'm really not trying to knock science, it's the idea that science is a sufficient belief system all by itself that I disagree with.

Yes. Once. I thought I had made a mistake but I was wrong.

I like science. It has its place. If people want to limit their knowledge to what science can offer that's fine by me. The thing that rubs me the wrong way is when those people proclaim others are deluded if they don't have the same limits.

Science is incomplete. Everyone seems to agree with that. Then, when someone learns something beyond what science can quantify the science-maniacs start the automatic denial and name calling. WTF is with that?

Ah, good then,

Where do you get these ideas? Did you post to the wrong topic or is this just your standard rhetoric?

This isn't really the case. It's not that science doesn't know how people freeze water with their minds.

Rather, it's that science knows that you can't freeze water with the mind. Sure, science doesn't know much about the mind, but it knows for sure that the mind cannot freeze water.

As an analogy, imagine giving a waffle iron to some amazon tribe. They won't know what it does, but they will know that it isn't meant to be used as a fishing rod.

Now I know who we are talking with

Apparently, you're God, right?

Since when. I have never seen anything on this one way or the other. It looks like you don't know the difference between science and beliefs.

Looks like you don't even know what science is!

Please, do elaborate. I like like to see posts that contain more than infantile insults.

Are you kidding me?

Do you need a scientist to come up to you and say: "you can't freeze water with your mind"?

In this case, it was discovered and proven that water freezes when the water molecules' vibrations slow down. When this was discovered, scientists didn't make a list of all the things it disproved, as it would be infinite (water is not frozen by magical pixie people from under your bed, water does not freeze when a zucchini is immersed in chocolate pudding, etc).

You cannot use a lack of evidence of something as evidence of something else. That would be like me saying: "You are god. There is not evidence against it, so therefore it is true."

LMAO.

Science does not and cannot deny the existence of anything, its function, purpose and ultimate goal is to assess phenomenon, based upon objective criteria. Though in truth, given that what we, in this reality, can observe and interact with? The sum total of mans
Knowledge, fits very well into the analogy of several blind men describing an elephant.

So, can a human being with the power of there mind, cause an effect, which results in a change in the molecular cohesion of an object?? Before we can answer that question we need to first answer the question what is consciousness and as has been made abundantly clear, "Science has thus far been unable to quantify the nature of consciousness".

This means ladies and gentlemen, that as far as, can science "debunk," the idea that it is possible for someone to freeze objects with the power of there mind? The short answer is
because, “Science has thus far been unable to quantify the nature of consciousness."

"Do you need a scientist to come up to you and say: "you can't freeze water with your mind"? As a matter of fact the short answer to that question is because, since
there is no known quantifiable and definitive answer for what consciousness is, there
is no quantifiable or definitive answer as to what the mind can or cannot do.
.

Now please indulge this digression....





No, it is not the same, that a person has the power to freeze water with there mind is an unknown, science cannot answer the question, because science, does not know enough about awareness, to say it understands if it is possible or not. You are suggesting that a truth exist because of a lack of evidence, this is not the case, what does exist is a question that cannot be answered, because the very foundation of how the question can be answered is still unanswered (but not in the case of Micro-PK).

For the record, the mainstay as well as the language of science, is mathematics the more complex of which make use of formulas which are standardized.

So lets be clear, the odds of a royal strait flush is 1 in 2,598,960 possible hands, the odds of winning the Florida lottery is 1:22,957,480 and the odds, that micro-Pk is impossible, is 1 in 10 to the power of 35 (which means 10 followed by 35 zeros) and this is reality.



Wombat states.....



it is not and you really should spend some time learning about these issues before you make such clearly inappropriate comments...


Any thoughts?

wow, apparently sarcasm(the skeptics most developed power) doesnt get recieved by skeptics

All this doesnt exist you silly psions... thats why the government used remote viewers during the cold war, we all know the gov't just loves wasting money that much

They stopped, it was inconclusive

Well, that is if I remember correctly, of course.

Thank you, Triad, for saying what I was going to say. Well put. Some people seemed to have somehow managed to completely misunderstand and distort the original post, which, as far as I understand, did nothing to rebuke science. Well, I am not going to go any further than this since Triad really explained everything I was going to say

edit: Apparently some of the posters in this thread have had similar arguments before, or are at least somewhat familiar with each others' opinions. I know nothing of that, but by looking only at the original post, I can't see how some people have drawn conclusions that the OP considers science bulls***. And I really see no reason for all the slander..

Its very ironic how some believers talk about science, yet when the time comes for another kinesis post, you just accept THAT as a fact and post advice and just your continuous support.

Please more action and less pasting.

My opinion(belief) too

It's not a waste of his time as his time is worthless anyway.

Your comments are appreciated Clocker but as you can see....

Bio-Mage states....


Bio-mage you need to re-read the thread obviously you did not understand what was said.


Any thoughts?

Yes. Just like yours.

Ericraven2003 it has become really obvious that UM need better educated skeptics, you guys simply are not up to dealing with what is being offered by beleivers.


Any thoughts?