Can we have morals without religion?

Religion is a major part of who we are and what we are. Some say it is what separates us from other animals, some say it's just a big scam. Morals and religion are usually closely interconnected, but I wish to raise this question:

Is morality possible without religious influence?

I am counting even an absence of religion, like Atheism and Agnosticism as religious factors here, but I don't want a debate about whether they are religions or not. For the sake of this debate, they are.

Can morals alone exist without support from a religious or spiritual source?

I will simply try and keep us on track with this one, and I won't offer my opinion up right now so that I can be as objective as possible in my support of the arguments.

Okay, let's see what you all think.

Please though, answer in a calm and intelligent fashion. It's harder to be persuaded by something like "I'm right because you're stupid."

"Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one."

Definately possible, look at John Lennon. It is not possible to have a world where everyone is good and loving, because when one learns good, they also learn evil. Humans have a tendency to fix things so they fit their point of view. Once that is done, they change their point of view. We need action, and we need tragedy and violence. That is why a lot of us love Romeo and Juliet, or West Side Story, and a number of other tragedies. Deep inside, we are all crying out for it. In fact, Tool made a song about it, it's called Vicarious.
Understand that religion is not a necessity. But there will always be hatred and violence, no matter what you do.

Further to the last post, Aristotle said that the tragic ending is a paradox. Happy endings do not make us happy. Tragedy is essential to catharsis. It's the essence of life.

Yes, but without religion, are morals possible, or do they need a religious base to be accepted?

Right and Wrong should exist in the story, to tell you about the moral of story. So moral of the post is that you should understand what is right and what is wrong.. then you need a rule.. then you need a ruler.. so our moral of the story will exist in the hands of ruler.. then this topic will lead to fate or freewill..

Yes it must be so. If you ask a theist "so you're saying the only thing that keeps you from looting, raping and killing is a belief in a supreme deity"?

They will always answer no.

There ya go.

When you ask them to explain their answer, you'll find the same reasons why moral atheists don't live depraved, hedonistic lives.

First one must ask "what is moral?"

Morals and morality change from culture to culture and the passage of time. Without a touchstone of the society you are discussing, morality becomes a nebulous concept.

Is there a universal concept of 'morally right' vs 'morally wrong'?

Is what is considered 'morally correct' in todays society in (fill in your country) the same as it was a hundred years ago?

One definition of "religion" holds it as anything that one performs in a regular and consistant routine, which is why some people are said to "work out religiously" - in that light, I think one person's own behavior in daily life counts as "religion", though likely not in the way you meant.

I'm ... if I had to pick a category I'd probably be "Hinduistic Agnostic", and yes, I have my own code of values and ethics that I live by, though I generally do leave the actual word "morals" to "organized religion" to use as seems fitting. I think it depends on what one means by "morals" - are there things I do or don't do, because I consider them right or wrong, beneficial or detrimental? Yes. Because they will alter things in the "next life" or will please some deity? No.

yes you can have morals and not be attached to any religion....if you watch some of the documentaries that are still showing about "lost" tribes of people in jungles, etc., you will see that the way they treat others in their tribe shows that all people have a built in sense of right and wrong. primitive by our standards, they still show that they care for others and the well being of their families. organized religion has helped raise the awareness of morals and moral standards but i still believe man has a spark of goodness in him the was put there by God at his creation.

randomhit10

I think initially (dawn of civilization), most people felt that killing, stealing, etc. hurt the victims in a way they could relate to, because they instinctively knew they themselves would not like to be a victim. It was all about protecting one's self, family and property--a common ground was met in these societies to form an insurance of sorts. I believe religion is just a product of the thoughts that would come about from the actions stated above.....Why does killing make me feel this way? Why do these people get mad at me for taking their stuff? I think all the 'whys' needed an answer, and I believe that is when a religion (a set of morals and codes) was created to reinforce someone's feelings or instincts on a particular matter. Punishment for 'offenses' could be carried out under this agreed religion to validate itself.
What I'm trying to say is.... any morals or codes one would follow could be defined as a religion. So basically you can't have one without the other.

This is a great question.

From my perspective--that of an atheist, a freethinker--a resounding ... no! I grew up knowing right from wrong without reading any books nor attending any religious institution. It boiled down to commonsense and proper parenting.

Abraham Lincoln once stated: "When I do good, I feel good, and when I do bad, I feel bad, and that’s my religion."

One Can Be Ethical And Moral Without God
http://www.positiveatheism.org/mail/eml9151.htm

Sean

Where to begin......

I suppose I should ask if you have a specific religion in mind because some so called "loving religions" have much violence in both their history and in their teachings.

In a word: yes. Religion is not so much a way to instill morals as it is either a way to instill fear in children, and those with the delicate psyches of a child, a way to dream of escape from the "horrors" of reality (i.e. "behave, and when you die you get to go to a wonderful place whose walls are built of sugar and streets are paved with nougat"), or a way to justify one's aberrant behavior (i.e. terrorism), while morals come from the conscience. If we commit an act against our conscience, then we feel guilt. And the conscience is a weird little hybrid, some of it innate (i.e. that aversion to shagging that very hot cousin most of us are born with), some of it taught. But religion has nothing to do with the teaching of morals. They can be taught with a simple "How would you feel if someone did that to you?" There is no need to mention god.

morals are defined and mandated by man in other words made up...Its the folly of the relative world....Can you set a standard of behavior that is independent of laws and is beneficial to humankind absoulutely many people have done this and effected great change.......


Morals smorals know who you are and the very best will make itself known.....

Of course you can. My Father was a very moral man and he was a life long Atheist.

Just because you are part of a religion doesn't necessarily mean you have good morals. Look at Rev Phelps and his congregation, who protest at the funerals of fallen soldiers. Would you say these people have good morals?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rev._Fred_Phelps

Without an absolute there is no morality. Other modes can mimic morality and effectively perform the same function... i.e. survival.

I wonder if Rev Phelps got his Morals from the Bible

That might explain somethings if he did.

Before this question can be answered it is necessary to define what is moral.

Many societies have differing images and something you may view as immoral such as Cannabilism or even rape are considered every day by some societies. Various malaysian and indonesian societies practiced ritual canabalism and considered it not only moral but away to reach god.

The African tribes considered it natural to rape villagers of lesser tribes who they defeated in war. it was considered incredibably good to drag women of other tribes to be taken by the tribal chiefs and elders.

These practices would be considered hugely immoral in most western societies but are or atleast were considered moral once upon a time.

Basically before you can talk of who has morals it is necessary to say what are morals. By morals do you mean the various things the bible claims to be wrong. Or perhaps the things that are against the law in your home country. Perhaps you even consider moral to be that which you state. But it is necessary to understand that everyone in the world is moral to there own thinking.

Even Hitler or Stalin didn't consider themselves to be evil. they truly thought they were doing the right thing.

Just my two cents...

What I mean by morals are a structured code of life, whether flexible or rigid. They can be good or bad morals, either way.

Your two cents are very valuable here, and it's good that you added them.

The main reason I posted this thread is because once in a thread I created about forcing religion on children, a few people acted as though without religion, children will become immoral. Thank everyone for their input, and I'm glad that this thread didn't develop into a flaming doom fest, and everyone made very intelligent and thought provoking posts.

If anyone wishes to continue in this thread, feel free. I think I'll check up on it sometime, but I believe that we have had a good few intelligent replies.

I remember as a child i killed a bird for the fun of it.
When i realized what i had done, i cried.I never did somthing like that again unless it was for food.(fishing).
For some morals are built in for some they are not.
Religion might be there as a safety net to teach the one's who don't have it built in.

Zircle, you and I had the exact same experience. I shot this beautiful little bird. He flopped to the ground struggling to breath. Finally it died. I never felt so horrible in all my life. I still haven't forgiven myself for killing that poor creature to this day--and I'm pushing forty. Never harmed another living thing since then and never will.

Kindly,

Sean

I know a lot of Atheists who are nicer and kinder than most Christians I have met

My "absolute" is that hurting people hurts people. Physically or emotionally, I know being hurt is not pleasant, so I don't want to hurt people. It's simple really, though I guess there are some people who want something "in return for their kindness" whether it be in this life, the next, or the afterlife.

thats exactly how i killed the bird.spin out.
maybe thats a stage all boys go through.
cool avatar i'm a big kiss fan too.

no you don't have to have a religious base to have morals. i have morals and they are certainly not religioused based at all

Seems so, doesn't it? Sigh ...



Kiss fan since 5th grade. And the band absolutely loves Australia. Filmed Kiss Symphony there a couple years ago (great DVD). I believe Paul Stanley owns a home there. Wish I did. Sigh again ...

Take care.

Sean

I know what you mean, I have never had an Atheist tell me my wife's spirit returned as demon, but many christians have told me that. They might not believe what I say but they never tell me that they are aways understanding.

Perhaps the bird is reborn and you can feed it now in winter.

I hope so, BA. I always feed the birds.

This is all rather interesting to me. You see, I frequently wonder if we can have morals in spite of religion. I'm speaking from an historical perspective here. How many wars and untold human suffering are a direct result of religious intolerance (?). This leads me to think that the concept of morality exists separately from that of religious beliefs.

Very good point.

Both good and evil exist in our hearts, it is our life long journey to suppress one and nurture the other. But it is our own choice of which to nurture. Religion itself can be a tool to accomplish that goal but so can love and respect for our neighbors and all of creation.
Irish

Very nice.

i think not. in religion itself there is morality. it's a perfection. moral without religion is like robot. have physical strength but no soul.

Wow, terrible analogy. Religion is not perfect morality, since it is created by man. And you don't have to subscribe to a religion to have a soul (What do they hand em out with the Bible/Torah/Koran??). If you believe in the soul, then you surely must believe that is in every human being, not just the saved.

Wow... the first argument to the contrary and I can barely read it.

Er.... what exactly were you getting at? People without religion don't have a soul, or the morals don't have a figurative 'soul'?

I'd really like to get unconfused so that I can answer your post well and not be going in the wrong direction.

Wow, Irish! You not only have a zany sense of humor, but you're very wise as well!

Why thank you Lilly, you and your lovely dog are now on my Christmas card list.

Contrary wise, I have met many religious followers who also happened to be the scum of the earth, going to their place of prayer after taking actions that are less than admirable in order to cleanse themselves because deep down they knew what they had done was wrong.
I think the same goes for beings without a specific sector of belief. When one person, who does not have any one particular faith, commits an act that he or she deems unmoralistic, who do they go to for cleansing and guidance? They go inward, towards themselves, find their own light and become better people.
It is inherent for humans to rage war, yes, but it is also a natural reaction for humans to have empathy.
Those without empathy are sociopaths, regardless of their religion.

Maybe we should not just nurture one but both.

Contrary, I have met Atheists who were more morals than some of my Christian friends. It is the individual heart of man and not what social club he belongs too. Those that say they believe in God yet commit evil acts are in far greater danger than those that do not know him and practice moral judgments in their daily lives.
It’s too bad that we as humans can only guess were another’s heart truly stands for, but there is no deceiving the one that first caused it to beat.
Irish

Thy wisdom is truly ... um, er ... wise!

some of the must moral people I know are atheist.

What does religion have to do with morality?

Religion is a system of beliefs usually centered around an afterlife, Divine Rewards and Divine Punishments. Religion fosters heirarchies and "holier-than-thou" attititudes. (I can think of no other reason why a number of my aunts boast about how often they pray the rosary. "I pray the rosary once a week." "Well, I pray it once a day.") Hardly moral, especially if it comes to blows, physical or otherwise. Religion for them is a way to attain a higher social status.

Religions also define how to attain the Divine Rewards, how to avoid the Divine Punishments. And that's where religion and morality diverge. I think a person's intentions are very important. Consider an action: Kindness to a stranger. If the intent of your kindness is to win brownie points with god (or God or The Great Nose), are you acting out of a sense of morality, or selfishness?

(If you want to point out that the road to hell is paved with good intentions... Is the road to heaven paved with bad intentions?)

Religion is not necessary for me to realize that I exist, that I have feelings, that I am capable of feeling pain and happiness, that I am capable of thinking. If you pinch me, I will wince. If I pinch you, and see you wince, then I know that you are also capable of feeling pain, and probably also happiness, that you are probably also capable of thinking, and so I can assume that you exist, same as me. Therefore, I ought to treat you with kindness, or at the very least, I shouldn't try to harm you. I should treat you the way I want to be treated. This conclusion does not rely on religion. I don't need any set of rules or commandments to know that you don't want me to cheat you, to steal from you, to kill you.

And if I do need rules, they should do more than tell me what I can't do.

LOL then so should I be ...I have said many times, you are very wise...I once posted it in one of my threads on RAW LOL you saw it...so ahem....make it a big christmas card LOL thankies

hmm... that's first thing popped in my mind after i read the questions... i obviously don't think anyone will be angry etc. maybe because i'm too young.

religion is not created by man. it came from god who wants human to worship him. we interpreted (i repeat, INTERPRETED) it as religions (many different ways to worship him, but the same purpose).

we do have soul since we are created in the womb. i didn't say we didn't have soul before 'subscribing'. i said it as a comparison, only. not as proof.

and i'm sure of that, thank you. i'm not an alien.

BM, You have been on my Christmas list for some time, you have points for being both naughty and nice.
Irish

In the thread "Forcing Religion On Children", someone acted like religion was the only way we can find our morals. I believe Chaostrom worded it well in post 16. It's at the top of the page, so scroll down to the fifth quote.

The reason why I raised this question is because of the argument in that thread... but the people who posted against are currently nowhere to be found. If they come back, refer them to this thread so that they can convince me.

I think it'll be no surprise to those who have posted with me before that I believe you can have morals without religion. I used to be Agnostic, and I didn't go kill, steal, etc. I believed then and still believe that honesty is the best policy.

*raises hand*...guilty as charged lol


Topic

I don't understand how on earth is religion meant to find out morals....A lot of nb's have good morals...a lot of those who are much like myself....that believe in God and dont follow a religious faith...have morals

i believe religion has contributed to morality, but i dont believe that we wouldnt have morals without religion. common sense created my (IMO good) morals. someone is nice to you=be nice back, someone hurts me=i just frown and walk away. ive never been in a physical fight, and i dont plan to. i think common sense contributes to morals

and i love puppies. whats more moral than that!