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zrina11
What about perfect murder? Do you think that is possible?
Episteme
QUOTE(zrina11 @ Jan 7 2007, 02:27 AM) [snapback]1490755[/snapback]
What about perfect murder? Do you think that is possible?


Jimmy Hoffa probably thinks it's possible. blink.gif

At the risk of starting a debate, JFK probably does too.
CASTOR
Im glad Hoffa was mentioned, becuase the perfect murder does involve no location of a body... Without a body, there is no evidence of a wound to be jailed for.
So we have The Body: No body, no evidence of what killed the person, plus it cant be proved you killed someone without a body, but that wont matter cause the perfect criminal never gets suspected
Now the Motive: A perfect murder is the perfect motive. You can choose someone you have never come in contact with, and make sure that persons timeline has never crossed your path or anyone you know, becuase the perfect crime is going to take time and planning....
Doing your homework: You must figure out where this person goes day to day, their routine from dawn till dawn. This may take months. Then you have to figure out how to get that person, without suspision, and on first meeting ( i say this because if you have more than one contact it is more likely that friends will hear of you and more people will see you, and it would be better if the person would go to your chosen location on their accord, which with enough planning could probably be pulled off because people like lab rats, can be persuaded to do whatever you want by them thinking they are acting on their own accord, but that is a lesson in psychology...) to go with you to a place where you have time. Time is the biggest factor that gets most criminals caught. You need time to do the killing and time to dispose of the body.
Disposing of the Body: In order to do this without being caught, you must know what degrades each body material so that no DNA can be detected. But the main goal is for the body to never be found, so that could mean burning the hair, crushing the teeth and then burning the powder, and the body is up to the person doing the crime. I have thought about it and if you could go out in the woods and trap up to possibly 3 wolves i think it could be pulled off perfectly. They eat if not all, almost everything. Then when they deficate, you could burn that. I think Hogs eat most everything too, but that would be harder to pull off because of obtaining hogs without record of doing so. But anyways, Time is the factor, becuase whatever you do to get rid of the body fully will require time.
Cleaning the scene: That explains itself, possibly using amonia to degrade any DNA and blood traces...
Living with Yourself: thats probably the hardest part.... To say the least. Because it was not a crime of passion, or a crime of revenge. This person has not wronged you in any way... You are taking them from their lives to fulfill a desire of your own. There is not a more selfish act then murder.
Libranaster
QUOTE(brazilianguy @ Jul 6 2006, 05:40 AM) [snapback]1258377[/snapback]
perfect crimes are every where, the boys in blue just doesn't like looking bad.



I totally agree with that. There are unsolved crimes that never get solved we have one here where a girl went missing from a bus stop in the 60's and was never found. Not trying to sound too calous here but she would be dead I reackon and somebody would have had to have killed her, so they got away free didn't they? The perfect crime. Police just don't want to admit they don't know everything but sometimes everyone has to be able to say "I don't know" (especially police and doctors). It is getting harder for a person to commit the perfect crime but it is still not impossible, in real life the killer probably doesn't conveniently leave a cigerette butt with his DNA on it like on tv laugh.gif . So yes the perfect crime is possible and police need to just realise they don't always have the answers even if they would like to.
Episteme
I actually picked those two for very specific reasons.

Hoffa because the obvious: lack of a body.

Now let's say here that JFK wasn't killed by Oswald and pretend this is a known fact (yeah, don't roll your eyes). With that as a given, Oswald was more than likely set up. Now if Oswald didn't do it, look at all the possible alternatives. The last I looked into it Charles Rogers was a pretty strong suspect, but I'd be willing to bet if I did some more reading I'd be able to find some pretty good information (with not only evidence but motive) that someone else seemed just as guilty as Charles Rogers. So, I guess what I'm trying to get across here is it has obviously helped to find a target that not only many people would have the motive to kill, but many people would have appeared to be in the right circumstances to have performed the crime.
ccleslie1
But to nearly every crime there is a victim, somebody that depite the fact that they might not know who you are know you committed a crime. Even in murder the family are victims it is theese victims that know you committed a crime. Whatever happens somebody will be on the look out for you. Even where there is no body people might connect it to you take Pinochet where his victims disappeared, he was though still arrested.
Secondly a crime might easily come round to bite you lets assume you live in a flat with more than one flatmate, you nick on of your flat mates biscuits you dont get caught (preseumably the perfect crime). A week later though you find your milk has been stolen. This has occured because you were stealing your flatmates biscuits. Your actions have led to a breakdown in trust in your flat, where you are all stelaing, because even if they dont steal somebody will steal from you so you have nothing to loose. By committing a crime you have let yourself become a victim. The same will work on a larger scale.
Lastly people have talked about the idea of a perfect motive. Doesnt the motive create the terms by which my crime will be perfect. For example if i was a terroist, i would look to be found out after commiting my attack so as to gain publicity for my cause. The IRA and Al Queda have used this tactic. If however i was to kill my parents for the money of course i wouldnt want to be caught. Therefore one part of it been a perfect crime will depend upon my been cought. The list of other choices we might make to decide what the perfect crime was is endless simply commiting the perfect crime is subjective to our own motives.
crouton
Check out this link. It's a newspaper story about disappearances on the cruise ships. It seems to me that these are perfect crimes. People go missing, and any evidence is cleaned up, and the ship moves on. In one case, the victim's belongings were packed up at the end of the cruise, and NO ONE (not the family, or the police) WAS NOTIFIED that the person was missing. It's a long article, but an interesting and disturbing read.

QUOTE
Death on the high seas


When the QE2 docked at Southampton on January 2, the liner was one passenger short: a 62-year-old German woman was missing. She is just one of a growing list of people who have disappeared from cruise ships in mysterious circumstances. Some of these deaths may be suicides, writes Gwyn Topham, but others appear more sinister. And of course there are no police out on the ocean . . .

Thursday January 18, 2007
The Guardian


The cruise industry says that more than 30 passengers have disappeared from ships in the past five years – and these figures exclude those known to have been suicides or drunken accidents. Photograph: Paul Campbell/Getty

In the last days of the Vietnam war, Hue Pham and his wife Hue Tran spent two perilous weeks on a cramped container ship, adrift with no food and little water in the South China Sea. The couple survived this desperate flight from Vietnam, built a new life in America, and then, three decades later, decided to take a Caribbean cruise on a ship called the Carnival Destiny. This was the boat journey that they would not survive.

The facts of the couple's disappearance, as the Destiny sailed between Barbados and Aruba on May 12 2005, are few. After a fruitless on-board search, the ship eventually retraced its path, joined by the US coastguard. No trace of their bodies was ever found.

For the relatives, the deaths left a terrible, insoluble puzzle. Their son, Son Michael Pham, maintained that his parents had no reason to take their own lives and were in fact planning a trip back to Vietnam, and were looking forward to meeting relatives again. "Two American citizens with no personal or financial problems, no serious health problems, living the happiest time of their lives, both vanished without a trace or witness," he later told an inquiry.

The cruise had been a Mother's Day gift to the couple, and they were on board ship with their daughter and granddaughter. "I immediately flew down to California, went through their home, and tried to find one clue, something unusual. I could not," Son Michael says now.

Since then, with the help of two other bereaved families, Son Michael has helped establish a group called the International Cruise Victims. In the past weeks, he has been offering his help to yet another family, after the QE2 sailed into Southampton on January 2 this year one passenger short.

Officially, Hampshire police are still investigating how a 62-year-old German woman, so far identified only as Sabine L, disappeared from a new-year cruise aboard the QE2 somewhere off Madeira. Her family has launched its own website appealing for help (www.qe2missing.de). But the full truth of Sabine L's last moments on the luxury Cunard liner is unlikely ever to be firmly established - beyond the cold fact that she joins more than 30 passengers who, in the past four years, have mysteriously disappeared from cruise ships worldwide.

Last year the cruise industry reported that 24 passengers had disappeared between 2003 and last March. The information emerged after a US Congressional subcommittee found itself with an unlikely task: to examine the threat posed to citizens by booking a cruise holiday. Since then, at least 10 more passengers and two crew have been reported missing or overboard, including one Scottish pensioner lost in the Atlantic last November. These figures do not include known suicides and those who, for one or reason or another - a drunken argument, perhaps, or misplaced bravado - are known to have deliberately jumped. Of those who have gone mysteriously missing, some may have killed themselves; other incidents may be alcohol-related mishaps; but in at least one case, the death of a 52-year-old woman on the Island Escape in Italy, something more sinister may have gone on. The FBI is still investigating that case.

After hearing details of those who had gone missing on board ships, subcommittee chairman, Christopher Shays, a Republican congressman, warned of a "growing manifest of unexplained disappearances, unsolved crimes and brazen acts of lawlessness on the high seas". Like small cities, he said, cruise ships experienced crimes. "But city dwellers know the risks of urban life - and no one falls off a city never to be heard of again." Going on a cruise was, he said, perhaps "the perfect way to commit the perfect crime".

There was no evidence of foul play in the disappearance of "M", a 40-year-old woman, from Celebrity Cruise Line's Mercury. But then, there was precious little evidence at all - and what did emerge was largely due to the persistence of her father, Kendall Carver, a former company CEO, who spent tens of thousands of dollars on legal fees and private investigators in an attempt to discover the truth about her disappearance. (Carver has asked the Guardian not to use his daughter's name, to protect the privacy of other family members.) Carver says it was on the second day of the Mercury's cruise to Alaska in August 2004 that a cabin steward realised that M's room had not been slept in and reported her absence to his boss, who told him he would deal with it. Throughout the cruise, the steward continued to place chocolates on the pillow of the unused bed, as he was ordered to do, but no one saw M again. At the end of the cruise, when the ship docked in Vancouver and all passengers disembarked, M's belongings were packed away. No one notified the police or her family. It was only after her father filed a missing person's report that police discovered that she had disappeared from a cruise ship.

Kendall Carver's loss was, he says, made worse by a lack of cooperation from the cruise line. At one point, Celebrity Cruise Line issued a statement in which it called the death a horrible tragedy, and added that "regrettably, there is very little a cruise line, a resort or a hotel can do to prevent someone from committing suicide". As Carver points out, the case is still open and his daughter has not been declared dead by the family or the FBI - in his belief, suicide is neither the only nor the most likely explanation.

Celebrity Cruise Line, however, now says: "There is probably nothing we or any company could do that would make the parents feel the company had acted sensitively enough." Today, all the company's passengers pass a computerised checkout at the end of a cruise.

Whatever the truth of what happened, M's case starkly underlines a fact that cruise passengers, potentially thousands of miles from home, should be well aware of: out at sea, there are no police.

It is extremely difficult for any detective to piece together a murder case without a body, and chances of finding a passenger dumped into the ocean are slim indeed. And while all cruise ships employ security officers, they do not always seal off crime scenes, detain suspects and interview witnesses in the manner that might be expected of them.

Two cases in particular have gripped the US and Australia respectively: the disappearance of honeymooner George Smith [see below]and the death of mother of three Dianne Brimble. The story of Smith, presumed to have gone overboard from the superliner Brilliance of the Seas less than 10 days into his married life, was lapped up by US television networks. First there was the young, well-connected victim and his telegenic, grieving widow opening up on talkshows; then family rifts and media-friendly forensic investigators added to the drama. The details of Brimble's end, left drugged and naked to die on P&O Australia's Pacific Sky, emerged in the more low-key surroundings of a New South Wales coroner's court. But both cases have been marked by questions over how well initial investigations were handled, by angry allegations from families and rebuttals from cruise lines, and an increased public perception that something was seriously amiss.

Unlike many in the grim litany of victims' tales, Dianne Brimble did not disappear. Brimble, 42, from Brisbane, had saved for two years to go on a cruise with her sister and their daughters. But by the end of the first night of her holiday in September 2002, she was lying naked, drugged and dying on the floor of a cabin, ignored and ridiculed by the men who had left her there.

A toxicology report would later show that Brimble had died of an overdose of gamma-hydroxybutyrate, a party drug also known as fantasy, GHB, GBH or liquid ecstasy, and often described as a date-rape drug. Brimble, her family told Australian TV, didn't even like to take Panadol.

By the time police met the boat in the South Pacific island of Noumea to investigate, the male passengers had been back in to the cabin to tidy up. No one has been charged in relation to her death, and it took more than three years for the details of her story to emerge at the coroner's inquest, which reopens next month in Australia.

Eight men were identified as "persons of interest" in the investigation. Photographs retrieved from a digital camera would reveal that before her death at least one man had sex with Brimble; photographs were taken even when she was passed out naked on the floor.

The Brimble inquest highlighted a cruise culture far from old-fashioned ideas of shuffle-board, after-dinner dances and G&Ts at the captain's table. At one point an advert for P&O cruises was produced in court: a postcard showing a line of sunbathing women and bearing the slogan, "Seamen wanted". P&O's lawyers protested that the cruise line was not on trial. But the coroner ruled it was admiss- ible evidence; Brimble, she said, did not die in a vacuum.

If the behaviour of eight "persons of interest" had attracted complaints - a photo of one showed him running naked through the ship on the night of Brimble's death - ship security officers would reveal that finding drunk, naked people on deck was a relatively common occurrence.

It is just not deaths and disappearances that are a problem on cruise ships. According to crime statistics supplied to the Congressional hearings by 15 of the biggest lines, covering around 85% of cruise holidays worldwide, there were 178 reports of sexual assault on cruise ships between 2003 and 2005. FBI representatives testified to their belief that the figures were under-reported - and further documents recently obtained under court order by a Miami lawyer, James Walker, show that Royal Caribbean alone, which carries around 25% of cruise passengers, recorded more than 100 complaints of sexual assault and sexual battery within that time span.

Some British and American security officers claim that the real picture is even worse. Geoff Furlong, an ex-detective from Liverpool who worked for six years as a security officer for two cruise lines, says: "It doesn't matter what the class of ship is. Young women are particularly susceptible - particularly from crew members. They hunt in packs."

He claims often to have discovered crew targeting young female passengers. "Say I came across the situation: the guy would be up before the captain at the next port of call and thrown off the ship at his own expense, to repatriate him to Costa Rica, or wherever," he says. "That was all that happened - there was never any police involvement." If passengers complained, they were bought off, he says, "given champagne, free holidays, told about the consequences of going to court, how it would bring shame on their families". Such complaints, he says, would frequently not even be logged.

"The cruise companies just want it to go away," says Randy Jaques, an American security officer. He claims personally to have dealt with more than 50 complaints, and says hundreds of women have signed "Jane Doe agreements" - meaning they have reached an out-of-court settlement with the cruise lines and signed a confidentiality clause.

Passengers can find themselves in a complex legal situation, potentially under numerous jurisdictions when sailing abroad. With many cruise ships registered under flags of convenience with relatively slack tax and labour regimes, the relevant laws might be those of Panama, the Bahamas or Bermuda. Prosecuting, say, a sacked crew member who has returned to his own country brings a whole new dimension of complexity. Charles Lipcon, a Miami lawyer who has built a 30-year career on suing cruise lines, says his firm does not normally take on cases without a clear jurisdiction. "What I've seen over the years is that it's a hot potato for everyone, and nothing much gets done," he says.

In the US, Son Michael Pham's victim-support organisation has persuaded two members of congress to sponsor a bill, the Cruise Line Accurate Safety Statistics Act, to put more of an onus on cruise lines to prevent and report crimes at sea. James Walker believes that many are unreported, and points out that crew members are far more at risk than passengers. "You don't have young Filipino women who have been sexually abused calling in to the guest claims department," he says. In fact, convictions of either employees or passengers are virtually unheard of. "People call and say they are confident that the FBI can solve their crime," he says. "We say, 'Well, if it happens with this cruise line, it will be the first time in their history.'"

Cruise lines, meanwhile, have been at pains to stress that ships are inherently safe, self- contained environments. In the context of millions of passengers each year, the number of missing people and reported sexual assaults compares well with statistics on land, they say; crimes such as robbery are negligible.

William Giddons, director of the UK's Passenger Shipping Association, representing the cruise industry, says: "The occurrence is so rare, anything that happens on a cruise ship is news. Because we're such a high-profile industry, it's something we have to live with. Compare us with a resort or a hotel, where there is virtually no security at all.

"I can't sit here and tell you that all crimes are reported - but the rules are very strict that they should be. They certainly will be now, if [they weren't] in the past."

Changes are indeed being made. Drug- and terror-related concerns have seen airport-style security introduced at ports, complete with x-ray machines and sniffer dogs. The on-board culture on "fun ships" may be changing, too: in Australia, a beleaguered P&O has increased CCTV, stopped 24-hour drinking, and scrapped its notorious "schoolies cruises", which often saw unruly passengers expelled on South Pacific islands. Its ill-fated ship, the Pacific Sky - now linked to four premature passenger deaths through accidents and illness in as many years - has been sold off.

The industry still has some PR work to do, though: disappearances and assaults aside, it has been beset by a roll-call of blights in recent years. Last year one man died when fire swept through cabins on a Caribbean cruise, and passengers feared for their lives as another cruise ship blazed in the English Channel. Cunard's Queen Mary 2 was recently the scene of a very public passenger mutiny after propeller troubles cut every stop from the cruise itinerary. Other cruises have been hit by the norovirus: a highly contagious sickness with symptoms including diarrhoea, stomach cramps and violent projectile vomiting. Some older British people had to be stretchered off one ship when it returned to Hull, and at one point successive outbreaks of the virus confined the world's newest, biggest megaliner, the Freedom of the Seas, to port. In late 2005, the luxurious Seabourn Spirit even found itself having to face down pirates with rocket launchers.

The industry has also run into problems on environmental grounds. In Alaska, where only ships with advanced waste purification systems are allowed to sail, a referendum has led to the tightening of controls and a rise in taxes on cruise ships. Meanwhile, Californian ports, under the newly green leadership of Arnold Schwarzenegger, are forcing ships to reduce their fuel smoke emissions. More large fines have been levied on cruise ships for dumping untreated waste.

But despite it all, passengers continue to flock to the ships. The Passenger Shipping Association estimates that there was a 17% rise in Britons taking cruises last year - with 1.25m of us taking a trip - and predicts that 1.55m will be on board by 2008. Worldwide, the figure is expected to pass 15m people going on a cruise annually. Bigger ships with astonishing facilities are intermittently unveiled - and monster ships to dwarf today's megaliners are under construction. With these huge ships boasting theatres and shopping malls larger than those found in many towns, passengers need hardly know they are at sea at all. So long, of course, as they don't go overboard

Profile: George Smith, a young man who went missing on honeymoon

Young, handsome and wealthy, George Allen Smith IV, a 26-year-old from Connecticut, went missing on a honeymoon cruise in the Mediterranean with his new wife, Jennifer Hagel Smith.

After a lavish wedding in Rhode Island, the couple had fl own to Europe, and in Barcelona boarded Royal Caribbean's Brilliance of the Seas, a large resort ship that caters for the younger and more active end of the market.

On the seventh day of the cruise, July 5 2005, Smith was reported missing. The newlyweds had spent the previous evening in the bar and casino with acquaintances from the cruise, drinking heavily. Hagel Smith said she remembered nothing after leaving the bar, allegedly after rowing with her husband. At around 3.30am, Smith, intoxicated, was helped back to his cabin. His wife was not there.

The next morning, a passenger noticed a large bloodstain on a canopy below the Smiths' cabin, and called security. Jennifer was tracked down to the ship's spa, where she was having a massage. George was missing without a trace.

Turkish forensic investigators were called in, as was an FBI agent holidaying in the area. By evening, the bloodstain was cleaned away and the ship continued on its voyage. If anyone had been responsible for Smith's death, that person was on the cruise: in the words of the dead man's sister, Bree Smith, who is convinced that there was foul play, "the Brilliance of the Seas sailed off into the sunset with the murderers on board".

In June 2006, Smith's family filed a lawsuit against the cruise line. Hours later, Royal Caribbean announced that the widow, Jennifer Hagel Smith, separately from the family, had agreed to a settlement.

Hagel Smith told the press: "As many great peace and spiritual teachers have said, through great suffering comes great awareness." Details of the settlement were revealed last week: Hagel Smith received a payment worth one million dollars.

Profile: Annette Mizener, a mother who disappeared on a cruise she won as a prize

Annette Mizener, 37, from Wisconsin, was reported missing on the last night of a nine-day cruise to the Mexican Riviera on the Carnival Pride.

Both her parents and daughter were accompanying her on the cruise, which she had won as a prize in a competition. On the evening of her disappearance on December 4 2004, Mizener performed Britney Spears' Baby One More Time at a karaoke night with her daughter, then went to the casino. Later than evening she was due to meet her parents again for bingo. But she never made it.

Her parents, Wally and Heidi Knerler, were immediately concerned. When an announcement came over the Tannoy that her purse had been found, they rushed to find cruise staff . The damaged purse had been discovered near a railing on the lower deck.

The local coastguard led a fruitless search of more than 800km2 of water well into the next day. The FBI later investigated, but no explanation was ever forthcoming. A CCTV camera nearby had been obscured - covered up by a map of the ship.

Finally a judge declared Mizener offi cially dead, but the family - who rule out suicide and suspect foul play - still have no answers. Carnival have since agreed an out-of-court, confidential settlement with Mizener's husband, John.

· Gwyn Topham is the author of the book Overboard: The Stories Cruise Lines Don't Want Told, published by Random House Australia


This seems like the perfect crime to me.
Episteme
QUOTE(crouton @ Jan 20 2007, 02:30 PM) [snapback]1509266[/snapback]
This seems like the perfect crime to me.

Indeed it does. It's scary to think some of these could even be heartless crew members nabbing wallets and knocking people overboard. Count me out for cruises.
Saint
I feel if I travelled miles away from where I am known and carefully murdered someone randomly without leaving any evidence, then no one would or could ever catch me. Surely?
crouton
^ I doubt you would be caught. These days, proving a motive isn't necessary in a murder trial. So if someone murders someone else, for no reason, and is not connected with the area, and is careful enough, they would probably get away with it. The murderer would have to be one sick *******, though.
Bigfoot_Is_Real
The perfect crime is simple


Do the crime

make it so everyone knows you did it but they don't know how you did

while the perfect murder is simple


make it seem like it never even happened
Sadonis
A perfect crime is a crime that can't be traced if evidence is found of an action.


If you murder someone that not many people know..you may get away with it for a year or so..but the body will eventually turn up. That or someone will file a report. Sooner or later it's uncovered thus imperfect. Most people may be mistaking the sloth of investigators with perfection. If a detective decides to call it off because he has barely any evidence..that isn't the perfect crime, it's a lazy detective.

You ALWAYS leave evidence that you may or may not know about.

A "perfect crime" is a myth. And no..you don't have to get away with it to be perfect...the crime has to NEVER be uncovered and evidence NEVER exist...


This post is also kind of stupid..but I guess I don't care ohmy.gif


Edit: To the above poster. What do you mean "how you did"....the crime?

Depends on the crime. Usually theories can be made and linked as true. That or you murdered someone and it is easy to tell when you cut them open. But then again..I live in the US and the bad guys are usually caught on a percentage basis. I would say about 60% of the criminals in this country get away with what they do because we don't have enough people looking for them.
psychosis
QUOTE(CASTOR @ Jan 12 2007, 02:58 AM) [snapback]1496822[/snapback]
Im glad Hoffa was mentioned, becuase the perfect murder does involve no location of a body... Without a body, there is no evidence of a wound to be jailed for.
So we have The Body: No body, no evidence of what killed the person, plus it cant be proved you killed someone without a body, but that wont matter cause the perfect criminal never gets suspected


I have a book solely on cases in which murderers were convicted without a body.
There may be no body, however there may be enough evidence to show that someone died, eg massive blood loss.

I don't think there is such a thing as the perfect crime. Yes, there have been many, many crimes for which nobody was convicted. however, evidence will always be left behind - it's just a matter of finding who left it there.
undersquiggle
okay, as far as i have read, no one on this thread knows what the Perfect Crime truly is(in my opinion). yes, you can call things like stealing a candy bar, or smoking weed, or even murdering and not having the body ever found, a "Perfect Crime", but what a truly Perfect Crime is, is something that will churn the stomach of anyone who even thinks about it other than trained professionals. here is my definition of a perfect crime. i gained this idea of it through the insights of my dad (Military Policeman for 20 years) and his colleagues.


a perfect crime,has to grab the attention of an entire nation, possibly even many others. a perfect crime is when the police know exactly who it was, on a "hunch" lets say. however, the murderer is so calculating, he leaves clues that tell the police it was him, but not enough to ever hold up in court. it has to be unprovable in court, so that once they have tried you for it, and lost, you can brag about it. since you can't charge one man for the same crime twice, the murderer, after he wins the trial, would casually walk into the police station, and slap a few pictures of him with the victim down, laugh, and walk away. it has to be in record books, people have to be afraid to talk to you after this. prefect crime is, to most, incomprehensible, which is why they are so rare.

any one else agree with me?
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