But that word had come from the cruel king.. again moses had played safe in that..

Yea but the angle of death was sent from God....not the king..and the angle of death killed all first born babies...therefore making God out to be an evil killer....this is just one of the reasons as to WHY I wont take in bible stories

BM did you know that those children would have gone to heaven? That's right, it says in the bible that children and newborns at the point of death don't have the free will and determination and therefore they don't have the developed minds and hearts set on complex morals like adults do, therefore before the time of maturity when one comes to reconcillation, they go straight to the kingdom of heaven from birth, yes it does state this.

And as for the first born, there death was silent and painless.

AHA so that makes it OK then does it Bolt?? its OK to take away all 1st born..and they just wernt ALL lil babies either Bolt...there was kids too...so just because you believe they ALL go to heaven that makes it ALL RIGHT??? So anyone can go killing children..cuz lets face it they ALL go to heaven so there is NO LOSS??? WTF???

So it's obvious you are not a parent...but ask your mom if she would have liked it if someone took away her child...and told her...........ohh its Ok madam..your kid will go to heaven...there htere its ok ...I am sure you mom would soon belt that son of a biotch in the kisser for suggesting such dribble....that dont bring the kid back...it DONT make the mother feel better either.....

Some day Bolt..you will loose someone so dear to you...and this will hurt you..and when thet day comes...and someone says ...sure its ok dont be sad he/she is now in heaven...it was painless...are you going to say.................yeaa sure..I am all better now, i'll sleep better now too............

I believe love and trust in God...but if I heard he killed my child...just to get up a kings nose...by feck I would hate him for the rest of my days

When you ever become a parent..you will UNDERSTAND...as for now I dont think you do

So again I do not believe God would do such a thing....he is NO KILLER...and I dont appreciate anyone saying he is...got it??

You fail to understand who it was the controls the four corners of the earth and created and forged with his own doing the countless numbers of stars in the heavens, I was there as I fell to the demise of the Holy one! You speak of ignorance when you say God does not punish!

Satan says he'll call you once he's stop making me eat bugs and drinking out of the toilet bowl.

Ohh I get it...you are saying that it was OK for God to kill all those children...how sick is that?

If I where to believe this crap a...i would hate God...but thank goodness i have a stronger mind NOT TO BELIEVE IN IT...there is no way God hates or kills anyone...if God is all loving...he aint a killer...only sad people like to say he is...especially saying he killed those kids who where innocent...just so some idiot king would free a few people...get outta here...

Can you even PROVE God did do this???no you cant...Can you prove the story is 100% accurate??? LOL NO you cant...NO ONE can...you are only chanting what you have read...who's to say all that is written is 100% accurate?

If you cannot prove it...dont waste my time...and dont try and prove the bible ..with the bible either

A lack of sarcasm I see.

BM that would be your opinion, but you seem to think I have an extreme frustration with it, which I don't, do you see me pissed off right now? I'll show you what smurk it is I have on my face right now:

So let's stop rambling about how I'm going to go off the batter with your opinions when time and time again I tell you it's the way your comments are being addressed, however I like how you are humoring me.

You still fail to PROVE that God did ACTUALLY do this...and you still failed to prove...that the story on mosses is 100% accurate...I KNEW you couldnt lol...no one can..that is a FACT
There are no scientific records of moses either for that matter...but because you took it apon yourself to believe in what was written...........thats your choice...everyone is different...just remember that

It would be like IF you where to make a choice (plz note I said IF) NOT to believe in the bible...and you saw I did believe in the bible...you would most likely still rant .....you cant get it into your nut, that everyone is different

Remeber if you are going to post up REAL scientific evidence..that the story is 100% accurate..then I will listen...but remember what I said earlier Bolt...dont try and prove the bible..with the bible LOL

BM you have once again failed to realize I never said I could prove Moses' story according to the bible as 100% accurate, the idea that Moses did not exist and lead the slaves out of Egypt was what I was trying to point out, now get your facts straight woman, instead of trying to always bring the bible into conversation as you must always usually do.

I know you never said you could prove it...I was asking you to either way regardless...now since you cant...dont waste my time...and now you realize that this moses story is based on personal beliefs NOT FACT...ta ta for dropping by

typing a novel????

Guess what????..................................... was moses if he was real a thief or a con artist?

Moses would only be a con-artist if those miracles never really happened, otherwise it would be neither.

wow.... you have a whole site dedicated to bashing BM.....dude, get a life, just because she makes you mad dont meen you have to make a whole site about her. lol that sounds like a fun site. every single thread would be called "why i hate BM" lolol what a great range of things to discuss

Oh no, not you too.

Doesn't anyone read what I say?

Actually they ran out of resources which is ussually why most empires collapse in the first place. Severe drought and lack of flooding in the nile combined with sandstorms this happened over a period of decades until the kingdom could no longer sustain itself.

In regards to the egyptians not building theiir own pyramids this is not true as they recorded that they were a proud race of builders who built their own monuments. Not aliens nor slaves built the pyramids as their would have been some historical records of this. There is however no records of Jewish slaves during the period in which they were constructed.

I conclude based on the lack of evidence to support such events happening that they did not occur nor did Moses exist. Historians and Egyptologists agree with me on these facts that the Egyptian peoples built their own pyramids. They also agree that the famine caused by lack of flooding in the Nile was ultimatly the cause for the famine which led to the demise of the empire the egyptians had built.

I can say with great confidence that there is absolutly no hard evidence that Moses nor jewish slaves ever existed in Europe. If anyone says otherwise then it is pure speculation unless they can back it up with something other then texts written after that time period. The fact that there is no hard historical nor achaeological evidence of either of these two factors is proof that they never existed in the region.

ok then, if that isnt what you ment, what did you mean?

The Egyptians designed the blueprints and the shape for the pyramids, the mathematics to the designs, where in the hell did you get the looney idea that the Egyptians built their own pyramids? Didn't construction take strict and extreme discipline? What's the point of it being an "empire" if they could have done it themselves anyway?

People keep forgetting that has much they want to call it a "novel" you can't say the bible is 100% completely non-historical, as that would be faulty.

What I meant was simple, though probably not as clear as I tried to get across, it's there for "sh**s and giggles" in the sense it's not a "hate board" but instead of the humorous spoof-like of wit, not a "competetors circle" or that it's neccessarily all about the Raw Berris, thus it's there just for the simple enjoyment of having a giggle at things highly obscene and innapropriate, much like Monty Python.

The Egyptians did build their own monuments and this has been prooven despite popular judeo-christian beleifs that it was done by slaves. The idea is not looney at all infact quite true so before you insult my words I suggest you do a little research.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pyramids/pyramids.html
This link to National geo explains it in further detail...

As for the bible I do not discount everything that is in the book but it has for the most part been exagerated and blown up to proportions that are completely realistic. It has been edited and rewrittin several times over history. For example the bible we use is 'the king James version' so it is his version of the book. It can only point you in a direction then you have to let science and achaeology take over.

Jesus for example was probably a real person who did exist in that time period. However there were other messiahs most of which led bloody and very often messy rebellions again'st the Roman empire. The leaders of some of these rebellions were also slain as Jesus was. Jesus was also most likely a drug user as holy annointing oil at the time was made out of cannabis misinterpreted as 'kalimus'. In order to become a 'Christ' your body was to be coated in a thick layer of the oil which is reffered to as the baptism of fire.

The Egyptians did build their own monuments and this has been prooven despite popular judeo-christian beleifs that it was done by slaves. The idea is not looney at all infact quite true so before you insult my words I suggest you do a little research.

http://www.nationalgeographic.com/pyramids/pyramids.html
This link to National geo explains it in further detail...

As for the bible I do not discount everything that is in the book but it has for the most part been exagerated and blown up to proportions that are completely realistic. It has been edited and rewrittin several times over history. For example the bible we use is 'the king James version' so it is his version of the book. It can only point you in a direction then you have to let science and achaeology take over.

Jesus for example was probably a real person who did exist in that time period. However there were other messiahs most of which led bloody and very often messy rebellions again'st the Roman empire. The leaders of some of these rebellions were also slain as Jesus was. Jesus was also most likely a drug user as holy annointing oil at the time was made out of cannabis misinterpreted as 'kalimus'. In order to become a 'Christ' your body was to be coated in a thick layer of the oil which is reffered to as the baptism of fire.

Why is it that very few actually give the Bible authors credit for being masterful writers? In literature, there are these things called allegory, metaphor, symbolism, imagery, et cetera. Also known as figurative language, rhetoric, and so forth. Some of the Bible is pure genius; in particular, the OT (especially the Tanach) resonates a multiplicity of letters, numbers, words, and layers (literal, figurative, interpretive) that has never since been even remotely approached.

Thank you.

Wouldn't you also consider that some of the text is literal?

Because we are not discussing whether or not it was mean't to be taken literally we are discussing the validity of it's contents whether or not Moses for example actually existed. I personally think a lot of the books stories were infact borrowed from other stories from various cultures such as the Sumeriens.

Of course the bible is very well written it has to be to get people to beleive it. However it is clearly taken as literal fact for many who follow it and I find that it is advocated by many figures that it should be. The fact that it uses many obscure refrences and rhetoric is to add to the mystique of the book.

What the topic at hand is did Moses exist and I guess to a lesser degree did a lot of the figures exist that are featured in the book and other books. Moses clearly did not exist the evidence supports this claim. Or should I say lack of to support claims that he was a real guy.

The bible in many ways is to be taken as literal fact. Some of it metaphorically as well but it is quite a logical assumption that a lot of the figures in the book are either grossly exagerated or made up. The book was designed to be used to keep people at bay. It also clearly advocates many unethical and barbaric acts such as beastiality, killing children, genocide, tyranny, racism etc. Once you unveil what the book really is designed fr it begins to paint a picture of how well written words influence the minds of men. Literal or metaphorically is in the eye of the beholder. It is up to the individual whether or not he chooses to take it as fact or take metaphorically.

I think that the book goes both ways and kinda borders on some of it's stories. Some of it can be taken both ways while other parts are mean't clearly to be taken metaphorically and literally.

This doesn't prove Moses didn't exist at all! How does anyone come up with such a story about the Hebrews? I mean seriously, if the Egyptians slaved away at their own creations, why is it that there is that story in the first place? Is the bible not an historical docuement of sorts?

Moses didn't have to part the Red Sea, but to say he didn't exist would be unethical, and I can't see how anyone can argue that likewise.

i admit the bible is well written, and a very intertaining story, but it isnt real


i think the bible is a load of BS, none of it can be taken lliterally, actually none of it can be taken anyway except in the way of it being a made up story


ok....maybe the egyptians did have the jews as slaves, maybe the jews made up the story about moses coming to save them as hope for them to keep going on and not just give up on life? ever think of that?

The proof is the non-existance of any jews or Moses in Egypt. Researchers have confirmed this to be fact. If he had existed where and when the bible says their would beevidence of this fact. Archaeologists have confirmed that all the skeletal remains of the builders were egyptian not jewish and that they took pride in their work as many cave paintings etc depicted.

Think about this for a second....

Ok say you were writing a new set of laws like the ten commandments featured in the story of Moses. What better way to get people to follow those rules then telling them that they are the words of God handed down to a figure who had mystical powers etc. Moses was a cover story clearly to get the judeo-christian community to follow these rules.

Also since all stories pertaining to the figure never showed up until centuries after the biblical story took place in etc.

Points that have not been adressed with facts that have been made by researchers are:

Why no evidence of existence beyond religeos scripture?

Why no evidence of Jewish slaves?

In fact there is evidence of the egyptians building their own monuments. This combined with the points I made are not absurd nor crazy it is fact. It would suggest that the figure known as Moses and the slaves never existed in Egypt at any time during the construction on their monuments. This has also been accepted by most researchers.

Since you cannot provide any evidence to back your claims that he did exist. The logical conclusion is that he didn't.

So?

I'd accept court marshall rather than do something I know is wrong

What if the order givin was in direct conflict with ethics and moral code. What if you were ordered to slaughter small children etc. Would you refuse because it goes again'st yuou moral judgement or would would you accept a court marshall.

Would you do something that is wrong because your ordered to? Or would you say do it yourself. Get the court marshall and be done with it.

Ummm..didn't I already answer that question?

actualy most historians now belive that the jews in israel were not slaves but mercinaries it was well known the jews were a powerful fighting force and that when the drought came to the middle east and they left and settled in egypt they were offered to be a defending unit protecting egypt form enimies. but eventualy they grew tired of acting under the command of pharos espicaly if they were soon taken granted of and there pay was lessend and rights striped so they left and while leaving they ssacked a few villages for supplies there is something mentiond of this in the bible i belive and the pillar of smoke and fire would represent the fact ancient armies used pillars of smoke in the day and pillars of fire at night so there troops knew were to follow and if they were a powerful fighting force then that would explain why the pharo sent his best troops after them the chariots.

yes it is known there were jews in egypt it is documented and if the jews never were in egypt how were they avble to descibe such things as the egyptian chariots and there numbers which were provn to be correct after a massive stable was uncovered.

umm explain to me how they can look at a skeleton of an egyptian an "arab" and tell that its diffrent form one of a jew and "arab" jew is a religion not an ethnicity nor a bakcground to think otherwise is wrong. i am jewish but i am 100% italian in fact my family has traced out ancestory hundrens of years back. my father moved to america from rome.

Egyptian chariots did not exist as they at the time did not have the wheel and the chariot did not exist in Egypt until the 'new' kingdom. This post dates thet time Moses was in egypt supposedly. They did exist but not until after the time period which is described. It is known there were no Jews in Egypt during any time of the old kingdom.
http://touregypt.net/featurestories/chariots.htm

Actually there are variances in skulls for instance jaw lines and teeth can be identified from one race to another. Aside from this 'Judaism' as a word never existed until the 8th century A.D. But most of the faith are from European decent. Since the Egyptians documented the building of pyramids and they have found archaeological evidence with the builders such as egyptian garb etc. It is also documented in cave painting and glyphs in the pyramid. No where during the old kingdom were there slaves. It is only documented in religeos texts which are highly questionable in the first place.

who says it was old kingdom? myself and many other belive that it was new kingdom and in fact the new kingdom had ver advanced chariots and hundreds of them http://www.kingscalendar.com/cgi-bin/index...wnews&id=71

Give me one--one!--shred of evidence he even existed!

Interesting article ...

Who is a Jew?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_is_a_Jew%3F

Kindly,

Sean

The biblical texts among other refrences, refrence Moses and the slaves refrence the old kingdom not the new kingdom they also reference the use of jewish slaves during the time of the pyramid construction. Still there is no other references to Moses outside of religeos texts.

If there references to that figure outside of biased religeos references then be my guest and provide them. The fact that there is no evidence at all he even existed is proof enough to say he didn't.

and as i siad earlier it is entirly morel ikely and this is backed by scienfic proof that the jews were not slaves but mercinaries for egypt u took bits and pieces of things u didnt take my entire writing i never said the jews were slaves nor did they build the pyrmids but i did however say they were mercinaries for egpt and after decinding to leave and sacking 2 villages ofr supples egypt sent out its most powerful force its chariots in the hundresd to stop them and i also siad that this would explain he pilar of smake and fire for ancient armies used them to lead there foreces in the day by smoke and at night by fire in the forms of pillars

It still does not confirm what is in the bible though and other texts.

Jewish mercs are not the slaves mentioned and There is no evidence of slaves....

Likewise with Moses absolutly no evidence at all.

You are trying to justify a 'fairy tale'...

what you say may indeed be fact but it has nothing to do with the old kingdom, Moses and the slaves in the bible. By making a post like this you have proven that you cannot find evidence of Moses and are merely taking a guess. The inclusion of Chariots for example into the story is proof it was written afterwards and not before. Moses is a 'mythical' figure nothing more. The story again is just to get people to beleive in the 10 commandments and pass them off as Gods rules. This way people will accept it more.....

Again what you say is pur speculation on your part and I still have yet to see any shred of evidence that Moses and his jewish slaves existed. Keep in mind you may be right about mercs but that has nothing to do with a story that takes place in the old kingdom and the construction of the pyramids. There would be evidence and there is none.

Please consider this: The Story of Moses is a textbook example of 'One Man Can Make A Difference.' The story doesn't depend upon factual evidence proving the actual existence of its characters because it's pure allegory... meaning that the author(s) intertwined certain basic human truths with symbolic "facts" or rhetorical "cues." This combination was (and still is for many) an effective means of conveyance for it appeals to the sublime human desire.

The Story of Moses is akin to that of the "superhero"--think Clark Kent, The Incredible Hulk, SpiderMan, et al.

As for the story's structure, look at a more modern allegory such as "The Ancient Mariner."

Thank you.

Unfortunately, M, most Jews and Christians think Moses to be a real person of history. Argh! By the way, well said.

Kindly,

Sean

Assuming Moses did not exist (I personally believe he did exist, but that's beside the point at this stage), why is it unfortunate, sean? What problem is there in a person believing someone long dead did live at some point.

Just asking.

Lets assume Moses did exist.....Charles Manson has nothing on Moses as far as being homicidal.

Holy Jesus Charles manson is moses

Unfortunate, PA, because people believe he was a major part of history. From a historians point of view, this is painful. Perpetuating a myth makes it difficult to get to the actual truth--whatever that might be. It can be quite the obstacle to overcome.

By the way ... How is it in beautiful Australia today?

Respectfully,

Sean

Thanks Sean. From an historians perspective I can see where you're coming from. As I said, I do believe Moses was a real person. I can't say as I believe he wrote the Pentateuch, but I believe he existed. Though from where I stand i can't say as it would make any difference whether he was real or not.

PA

Oh, it's find down here anyway. Nice days, freezing nights. The usual. Nothing fantastically different.

Thats funny, I am quite sure he never asked for any gold from any of his people and I am quite sure "Thou shalt give me all your gold" was never a commandment. Just because some churches have blasphemed in the name of God does not mean it was the intention of a very important figure in that religion. It's called exploiting others for personal gain and I am quite sure this was NEVER talked about in the Bible.

So to take a stance against something that had nothing to do with your bias towards that stance is rather naive. That would be like me converting to Buddhism tomorrow and learning that Buddhism is all about peace and tranquility and achieving niravan and then doing terrible things in the name of their faith(like say they must pay me or never succeed) and then everyone hating that religion because of my actions. Even though Buddhism had nothing to do with the cause of my exploitation of it.


Moses was for real and he wasn't just mentioned in the Old Testament he is also seen during the days of Jesus, proven by this quote here.




Thats funny, a man is still being seen and talked to and mentioned by people long after the stories of Moses which you apparently think were all make believe. How then is Moses still being seen long after his time? Answer: He MUST still be alive and thus must have literally been a prophet of God, which he was and explains why he was with God(He must have come down through the "cloud" from which God spoke) and is very very old.

http://www.thelightside.org/EARSite/ears_u...iblefiles2.html

That should be an interesting perspective for people to see. Trust me though, Moses was a very just and wise leader and literally was in Gods pressence as he was a prophet of God. Also, the Covenant of the Arc has been proven to be real because it was recreated by a group of people a few decades ago by the same exact specs as present in the Bible and it was discovered it was actually an electrical device of some kind because it was creating immense electrity. Which explains why even the people working with it had to wear "special" clothing, special meaning, electric resistant. What the Arc really was, was a container for the Ten Commandments and a radio & speaker for God to speak through from a distance.

Jesus even saw this exact thing happening with the exploitation in his and Gods name as seen by the following quote.




Also, everyones attitude against the faith and the Bible is also seen coming in this sentence. Not only did he see people like you all coming but in the same sentence he also mentioned the false prophets who would arise(such as the televangelists that tell you they need to give your money to God). This is pretty solid evidence of the fact that it is not the faith that is corrupt but rather the preachers of that faith.

The bible was not written by Jesus, Moses or God in fact many of the stoies in about Jesus for example were written after some as far after as 2 to 300 years. An example of when Jesus supposedly said "He who has not sinned, cast the first stone" was written after his life by at least 200 years. See if this is the case and in my opinion certainly is then isn't the rest of the book wrong too. It would be logical to assume so anyway.

Of course people can see the skeptics coming and yet the only thing we had ever asked through out history is where is the bloody proof! It is only natural to presume that people will question your words especially if you make fantastic claims as these biblical prophets did. That is not clarvoyance just common sense.

This is not evidence for the existence of Moses. The scriptures you quoted is theology at work and not fact. If you believe this, than anything goes--Balaam's donkey spoke, Constantine spoke with Apollo Sol in visions, Suetonius did, indeed, witness a Centaur etc.

Respectfully,

Sean

Evening PA. Glad all is well down under.

As for not making a difference ... My perspective is this: By historicizing mythical peoples and events, you get entire groups of people believing, for example, that Israel belongs to the Jews--and has from the beginning (which archaeologists and scholars know is completely false). So, let's kick out the Palestinians and occupy land that they have lived on for centuries. Look at the problems this has created--and all because a decision was based on a religious text (way to go UN), filled with mythical people and events (archaeology has proven that there was never a Joshua who led any invasion, but that the land was settled peacefully by a group of semi-nomadic people--Canaanites--who eventually became the Jews) that proclaims a particularl group of people have a god-given right to something--in this case land. How much pain and anguish has this caused?

This is what can happen when we literalize, bring to life, religious works and the characters therein.

... Hebrews were not a separate nation - they were merely peasant Canaanites who were left homeless. They made their residence in the Judean desert, which was part of the Egyptian empire at the time. "Joshua and the Hebrews were not conquerors of Canaanites. They were Canaanites," according to "Ancient Evidence: Joshua and the Walls of Jericho." What separated Hebrews from Canaanites was theology, not genetics: the peasant Canaanite caravan people did not eat pork, they believed in a single God, etc. Other than theology and poverty, Hebrews did not differ from any other Canaanite people. Originally, Hebrews referred to their God by the word "Baal" - which has come to mean "Lord" in the Hebrew language . Baal was the name of one of the Canaanite Gods...

SOURCES
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal

Ancient Evidence: Joshua and the Walls of Jericho (Discovery Channel, 11/13/2003 at 1 a.m. Also available on DVD and VHS)
http://shopping.discovery.com

Canaanites, pronounced KAY nuh nyts, were a people mentioned in the Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament. Most of their land, called Canaan, later became known as Palestine. The Canaanites may have settled in the region about 2000 B.C. They were its chief inhabitants until about 1200 B.C. The Bible says that the Israelites conquered Canaan at that time. However, archaeology and some Biblical passages indicate that the Israelites only gradually became the area's dominant people. Archaeology also indicates that many Canaanite cities were destroyed by the Sea Peoples in the 1100's B.C. The Sea Peoples may have migrated to Canaan from the area around the Aegean Sea.

The Canaanites were a Semitic people related to the Arabs, Assyrians, and Israelites. The Canaanites had an advanced civilization. Their main political unit was the city-state, which consisted of a city or town and the surrounding villages and land. The chief Canaanite gods were El (a creator god) and Baal (a storm god). The main goddesses were Anat, Asherah, and Astarte.--Carole R. Fontaine, Ph.D., Professor of Hebrew Scriptures, Andover Newton Theological School

Respectfully,

Sean

There was a nation called Palestine and a foreign military forced them out of their nation.