Are you speaking of the contents of the bible or the living, breathing religion of today? If it is the latter, then your premise is confusing....where is all the hate and violence (in a categorical, mass infected way)?

Well, that will always be a matter of interpretation.

Both.

BTW: The Bible (per Christian belief) is the word of God.


If there were only one or two verses that were violent (violence from God) then it MIGHT be understandable....but there are many senseless acts of violence (per Bible) even against "innocent children" (rape, murder, stoning to death, infant cannibalism, just to start the list) and for what reason......

Is it that the Bible shouldn't be taken word for word, or is it that just ignorant people have interpreted over the course of history? If you look at the worst Church atrocities, most of them were by the influence of the Catholic Church during the Middle Ages; and they fought hard to stay ignorant as well. The Protestant Revolution is a prime example of this; also demonstrated in the Thirty Year War. But that didn't mean that the Protestants weren't ignorant, only that truth was now allowed to be recieved.

Zando, I know you find this hard to believe...but not every christian takes the entire bible literally, or applies the same standards used in the OT. Many follow and believe the Jesus story only, NT (maybe this is why a lot don't know the bible as well as skeptics). They understand times change and laws change. Why would you hold someone to a standard you don't even believe in? Is it because you think all christians come off as being righteous and it makes you feel good to point out the contradictions? The christians I know are far from that stigma. Sure they are passionate about their beliefs, but aren't we all.

Fair enough.

Perhaps that is a large part of the problem....they are too passionate about their beliefs.

Some could say that about your beliefs......not me of course-

In truths/facts perhaps I am guilty but covering the truth with half truths (mis-direction) is worse than telling a lie.

Yes, indeed. One person brutally tortured and slowly killed, three drunks could sleep in the church for a night...

And here we go again with: "Why do you always pin point christianity out when there are other violent groups?" Well, here is why... Because other groups have not managed to even kill a fragment of christianitys high score o'killings. Let's not even talk about the torture. Red hot iron masks, racks, burning and so on, so on... Compared to christianity other groups are harmless little children with a couple of firecrackers while christianity is like the bombarding USA, where mostly innocent people who don't take part of the conflict get killed, ahm, murdered...

1 night of sleep is worth torture and murder? Can you guys please tell how exactly they save people?

People just take something pure and turn it into sh*t. Why is it that Christianity has been such a source of pain? Why are its followers like this? Or they used to be.

i forgot hitler. any of those names ring a bell? could probably also add in WW2 era Japan. i dont have exact numbers, but considering that the Japanese army killed 300,000 civilians in one city in six weeks, they could very well be up there.

Do you realise that because of christianity not tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, but millions and millions of people were tortured and killed. Back then christians had the power to do anything they wanted and the sects or different groups of christians didn't eliminate eachother. They killed the mob so the most feared one got worshipped... Let's not forget the crusades and ofcourse a large portion got serious torture before death... And christianity didn't do this for a decade or two, they did it well over ten centuries!

And another reason why christians are pin pointed out is because Hitler and your other friends are condemned. Christianity is seen as a source of morals, justice and overall goodness... Also the christian crimes are denied, for a big part of the world they do not exist...(and sadly that part is a powerful one)

I agree with you

I think religion was a cover for the real reason the crusades were took place. That reason was power over trade with africa. But the people just blindly ignored one of the commandments and did what that moron the pope told them to do.

do you have any reliable source for your numbers?
not africa, but the east.

I believe religion is just a good way at controlling the masses. Make you believe in a higher power or being make up some stories or a opposite force or entity that will corrupt you and make you suffer then BANG you can control people with either the promise of eternal peace and happiness with a loving enity or power or Control people with the fear that they will suffer at the hand s of a dark power or entity. A lose lose situation for some.

Hey that's fine with me man, cause when you're dead you can't complain over the fact that you believed in a lie.

1.) Since it happened such a long time ago and the christian leaders were not that eager at counting their victims then there are only estimations. http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html is one of the very very many websites for example. If you want more websites then using google.com should not exceed anyone's abilties... Then there is always the history lessons at school, but I take it that you live in America and instead of giving you a history book you were handed a bible... Then there are always librarys and I cannot suggest you a book, I do not read them that often. If you are interested I'm sure you'll find a couple. First and foremost logic is a reliable source. Over ten centuries of time, limitless power and so many "witches", pagans and other "monsters" to kill...

Yes, you can say I didn't provide much. Only one lousy website... All the reliable proof is estimations from experts which dont mean anything to christians and providing you multiple estimations instead of one would not change a thing. If it would then finding them is not nearly an impossible feat with acces to the internet...

2.) Because slavery and christianity were like feet and boots, then most of the victims were slaves from Africa...

The one word answer to the original question of this post is "Power"! You can elaborate on it, but it all comes back to that one word!

what you gave is more or less links to google searches, im not doing your research for you. also, the sites estimates for the number of accused witches (the only figure i know off the top of my head) is too high. 1 million is right out, but i've seen worse, and the 100,000 figure is twice as high as widely accepted estimates. if i were you i would give http://chass.colostate-pueblo.edu/natrel/pom/old/POM5a1.html a read.
you have no idea what i was talking about do you?

Hitler considered himself a Christian.
Documents and photos seem to substantiate this claim.

Here is a start:
How many people have been killed in the name of Christianity


Africa....Near East....Middle East....Far East....North America....South America....The whole world

Zandore:

Me with added emphasis:

Zandore:

Me:

I think you need to distinguish who you are talking about. Catholics killed millions. Those they were killed were Christians who denounced the authority of the pope. IMO, Catholicism is the religion of the pope, the antichrist. If you accuse someone of sins, accuse the people. They believed what they believed, but they were still responsible for their own actions. Don't patronize Christians due to the Catholic Church history.

but Catholics are a type of Christian arent they? and did you just say the pope is the antichrist?!? ........ i agree...... and not only Catholics have done damage, what about the christians in africa with there missionaries uprooting everyones lives? not leaving the people alone until they accept JC. and dont go on telling me that the missionaries are good cuz they feed the hungry people. they dont do anything for anyone until they convert.

What if you choose to accept God himself instead of Jesus? I doubt even then they would leave you alone. catholicism is a branch of christianity.

Do you realise that because of christianity not tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, but millions and millions of people were tortured and killed.

Among other things I am a history teacher. I haven't gone back and checked the statistics, but I believe this is a huge exageration. For most of history there weren't that many people around and they were quite hard to kill in mass numbers (Neither the weapons nor the social structure allowed for it) Even allowing for a long period of time, millions seems a lot of people. On the other hand even one peson killed in the name of religion is too many, and if you lumped in those killed during western colonisation and expansion as religious based murders you might get up to at least one million.
Compare that with the atheistic Stalinist regime which killed something like 20 million of its own citizens. Pol Pot who wiped out a large part of his poulation, or the Chinese cultural revolution where millions disappeared within a few years. None were religious killings. As i posted earlier; Vikings, mongols and internicene wars on most continents throughout history had nothing to do with any religious beliefs. Like it or not, for most of us in western societies, our very being and belief structure is inculcated into us through a religious filter. This brings with it the conscience and moral beliefs that make us different to a culture with no religious beliefs, or say those who believe that by eating their enemies they will capture their strength/powers.

Blue once again you show your ignorance..you know fine well that Catholics are christians..and they dominate christianity....you have been shown this so many times...yet to be ignorant...you bash and blame them for all the horrid things you can possibly think of...so does this make you a good christian??? IMO no..any christian that bashes other churches of God...is not worthy of Gods love...if you wanna get really techinal...I can throw up a heap of info that shows how much christians have killed and destroyed....but for me to do that..I would have to lower myself to your level

As one who came this far *raises thumb and forefinger gripped together* from becoming a missionary, reading into it, interviewing many missionaries, looking into organizations that utilize them, I can tell you that this paragraph is right out.

Yes, I've heard stories of "rice Christians", and I don't doubt that these things have never happened. A couple of generations ago, it might have even been commonplace, I don't know. But today, missionary work is virtually identical to the work done by other humanitarian organizations except that they provide the opportunity to hear the gospel in areas that don't usually have that opportunity.

A doctor who goes overseas spends his time helping the sick - men, women, children, anyone. And they willingly give up their six-figure salary, their lifestyle, their friends and family to do this.

Turning to Christ is by no means a requirement of receiving missionary aid these days. Anyone who says otherwise, quite frankly, is wrong.

Regards, PA

To answer the original question, I see no reason in pointing fingers at any group of people or religious organizations. That leads to stereotypes - the shadow of discrimination, that is. Looking back through history, humanity has a violent past. Christianity alone is not to blame for this. Every group ever assembled has violence in their past.

Blaming our troubles on religion is the easy way out, I'm afraid. Wars are the result of politics. Mako said it best, it boils down to one word - POWER. Elaborate however you like, this sums it up.

That said, it is no secret that specifically referring to Christianity, it has violence in its past (Catholics are considered Christians *hint hint Bluefinger*, though their beliefs and doctrines are significantly different to the majority of Protestants - it can be said that though all Christian denominations are "Christian", some are more Christian than others).

Anyhow, rather than looking bleakly at this past and dropping religion altogether, or god forbid, ignoring the past, we need to learn from it. If we do not learn from mistakes, we're bound to repeat them.

You are mixing up several posts.


As I pointed out....history.

You do believe in history don't you?
If we don't learn from history then history will continue to repeat it's self.


Yes I do....
Here is the post I was responding to: Your Post

And here was my response: My Reply

Religions were wrongly used by groups and individuals until political parties were invented to take their place as a tool to gain power over people, land, and resources.

All politcal parties are facist groups.

I never understood as to WHY people need to live in the past...it's crazy...especially if you yourself where not involved. If I where to sit and moan about my past that has hurt me...heck everyone has a past that has hurt them, from one time or another, but it only makes you feel bitter and angry....it don't help matters.

I have seen one too many threads posted about what religion has killed and how horrible they are....is that going to make a difference??? or is it only posted to take a stab at others??

If I posted up a horror story on how christians have killed and slaughtered...it would be only because I just want to have a stab at those who are christian...I have however once posted a horror story, in which you have read and other christians alike...about how they have suffered...I raised the issue...but I did it to let others know just how badly christians where once treated by the Romans...I didn't do it to get up someones nose...and it didnt either...a lot of christians wernt aware of it and NOT ONCE was I slammed for it

Christians Persecuted thread.... By BM

what you posted begins with several statements not backed up at all, and then adds an alphanumeric code after some. this is followed by a section on the crusades that describes them as typical medieval warfare (try Barbara Tuchman's A Distant Mirror or something similar) with an apparantly absurd number of 300,000 europeans killed at the 5 week siege of Nicea. for comparison, if that number were correct, that siege would have been deadlier than the US involvement in WW2.
all im asking for is something reliable to validated this "millions and millions" claim.

I don't know about the rest of the people here, but I do not blame religion/christianity in humanity's violent past or for all of our troubles as you said. I would not really care too much about the slaughters in the name of christ if christianity would not be seen as something so just and good these days. Most other groups who killed so many are condemned and seen as what they are - groups thriving for more lands, control and power. If christianity would be wieved this way then these posts would not exist. I am more disturbed by their reputation despite their actions, because what they have done has been done before and will be done in the future, but I don't know a group that is worshipped if the group has commited crimes like these...

BM, once again, you are missing my point. Its because of the numbers that you believe the Catholic Church to be Christian. But I have shown over and over again that just because you claim to be Christian, it doesn't make you Christian in God's eyes. It doesn't matter what you think BM, it matters what God thinks. And he has said it over and over again what he thinks. Am I accusing Catholics of anything? No. But history has shown what resulted from the pope's religious authority, bloodshed. History shows that those that denounced the pope's authority were murdered. The Bible shows that the Church of Rome and the Pope do not follow the Bible and original Christian teachings. So where am I getting wrong at BM? History testifies the truth, regardless of our opinions.

You get it wrong each time you claim catholics are not christians.....just because you are ignorant towards it...you seem to thing God must be too............since when where you the spokesman for God??
Ohh And I have never called myself a christian...but your posts just scream out hate against another church...and if that is what your church teaches you...thank God I am not part of it...too much hate with you Blue...So you must believe that God respects your hate.......without catholics christianity as we know it...would NOT I repeat NOT be the biggest religion it is today....you can sit there and deny it to you are BLUE in the face (no pun intended) but you are only showing your pure ignorance....nothing more

You cry on about history...you live in the p[ast too much....while the other live for the future...thats a pity for you and sad....I am so lucky I wasnt raised a bigot...full of hate ....That I am greatful for

BM, why do you make personal attack each time you reply? Can't you be civil? The Church of Rome is the Church of Apostasy and Corruption. I know its history, it knows its history, and yet the Church of Rome still won't change. Yeah, you are right, Christianity wouldn't be as big of a religion if it wasn't for the Church of Rome, but I don't give that glory to Rome, I give that glory to God. The problem is that you are making judgements about Christian matters without actually being a follower of Christ (a Christian), how does that work? I don't hate the Catholic Church now for what it did in the past, for God fortold it of their ignorance. However, the truth stands clear and yet they refuse to accept it. By that, they bring on themselves the same guilt of the murders by their justification of it that their forefathers did in the past. If you justify the crimes of your fathers, you are a partaker in their blame as well. You know it and I know it. If you don't follow Christ, then this isn't quite your field of expertiese to judge on, IMO.

Blue I am not making a pernonal attack...I just dont like ANYONE that slams bashes and shows ignorance towards another church, especially if that church, happens to be the biggest known to christianity...I may have left it...but I still respect it

Another thing Blue...it doesnt do any good to sit and dwell on the past...cuz its not the 1st time you have done this exact same thing....you have done it dozens of times..you rrepeat yourself over and over again...always living in the past....always getting at the catholics.....people who do that only have hate in their soul...that is true and NOT a personal attack...Its your views...how you go on to express them...how you think you are from the one true faith...when you cannot prove to be....you acted as if you where Gods spokesperson...yet you know you arent....

Blue if you call a personal attack as someone telling you off for showing your ignorance towards other faiths...thats sad...you as a person, I do not have a problem with Blue...as you know on a number of occasions I have been able to post back to you CIVIL...but when you act so so ignorant and show hate by bringing up what you want to believe in ...THE PAST...I wont let go of this...NEVER...I am taking a stand for Catholics..and I dont care what you or anyone think of it....its high time someone stood up for them...cuz this board was getting too much like a breeding ground for hate towards them....its almost as if you are blaming the innocent Catholics there are today for your claims of the past......ohh and you forget how christians killed and slaughtered people in the name of GOD...why you forget this ...I dunno probably because you like to!!!!

You said earlier that...just because someone says they are a christian...that dont mean in Gods eyes they are a real christian................so because you SAY you are a christian....do you believe iin Gods eyes you are one???? thing is Blue you dont really know...you seem to think a christian MUST not love thy neighbor....by neighbor I mean other faiths such as the Catholic one....you set your own rules...but your rules are NOT Gods rules

I'm not ignorant just because you don't understand. God said the Church of Rome would come and called it Mystery Babylon, and he said the pope would come and called him the false prophet. And he said these would be responsible for the blood of the saints that was shed for world power. I'm not ignorant. And if I forget the past, does not those murders get away with murder? The Catholic Church still justifies all those murders. I don't hate Catholics, I just don't like the Church of Rome. I don't care about their popularity. Stop treating me like I don't know what I'm talking about. Test my accusations! You can't because they are right. Everyone follows the band wagon of the Church of Rome and they call that Christianity? They can't even follow the Bible? I'm not saying I'm perfect, but I do not deny Christ's supremacy over earth like the pope does. Its his continuous blasphemy that agitates me.

God didn't say no such thing...............you get Gods words CONFUSED with your beliefs...LMAO.....you cannot PROVE to me God said anything...and I think it's disgusting that you make it out to be as if God has said anything...very disgusting indeed..and you claim to be a propper christian..you should be ashamed to make FALSE claims of Godswords....when you have NOOOOO PROOF OF GODS WORDS.....NONE...What sicken you is you know christianity would be NOTHING without Catholics.....everyone knows that...this gets to you....your hate shows just how much your faith in God is messed up....I cant believe you think God is as hateful as you make him out to be...you remind me of the extremists that prance around yelling God hates gays...god hates this god hates that...thats a sad way to be<--people like that need serious help...its disgusting to be part of that group and they all should be ashamed to call themselves christians

It's amazing how Blue turned this....



into a thread about Catholics...LOL when the thread is clearly about different faiths within christianity that where killed in the name of God...maybe I should go look up how many have been murdered by christians..and plaster it all over...see I would do this very easy..it's not hard to look up stuff on how christians have killed and totrured others....nor is it a hard task to look at extremists..how these people mock the name of christians by trying to class themselves as christians...when NORMAL christians are NOT LIKE THAT

I've gone over this and have proved how, through Divine Providence, God has prewritten history in Prophecy, but sealed it so that none would understand it until it was fulfilled. But what use is going through this with you if you don't even consider the Bible to be God's Word? You are not a Christian that follows God's word, you follow your own beliefs; cutting out what you don't like and pasting what seems fit for you, so that God is pleasing to you. It doesn't work that way, not for you, not for me, and not for the Church of Rome. You say the Church of Rome is responsible for our knowledge, but you give them that glory and not God. God was with Jezebel but she would not repent. And God threw her in a bed, and those that fornicated with her into great tribulation. This was to refine them so that the Protestants would Reform the Church. The one biggest problem that I have with the Church of Rome is that it claims the pope to be our holy father and infallible and that he can forgive sin. For every great title that God deserves, the pope claims just as much. The claims that he is Christ's vicar on earth while Christ is in heaven. But Christ said in Matthew 28 that all authority in heaven and in earth had been given to him, so who needs a vicar? The Church of Rome's king is not Jesus, but the pope. Can a man really fill the shoes of Jesus Christ the Almighty King? I think not.

If they would repent of their blasphemies and stop justifying the murders of the millions of brothers and sisters in the past, then maybe I would stop calling them the antichrist.

When I said that God had said it, I meant that Revelation 13 and 17 was made clear as daylight over the course of history and their is no doubt in my mind that anyone is more drunken with the blood of the saints (Rev. 17:6) than the Church of Rome, thus Mystery Babylon. I can explain this to you, if you calm down and let me explain myself instead of jumping to conclusions about my character when you don't even know me. Can you give that a shot?

It has references if you look plus as I said and you ignored.....history!

Who are they??? are you trying to say every last sinle catholic on the face of this planet??? the billions of catholics???

Who to say they are blasphemies??? how can you know for sure who REALY is and who isnt???.....your beliefs???

You banter on about this part in the bile that differs...so what?? who can prove the bible that you read from is 100% in your face accurate??...cuz believe me Blue, there is not ONE SINGLE PERSON ALIVE can prove this..its based on a persons belief...nothing more

I am not mad Blue...I am just saying....

You can explain this to me if you want Blue...............I WILL LISTEN...but I must warn you...you are explaining it to someone that does not believe in the bible......meaning ANY BIBLE......

Blue if you where raised in a catholic family...and you where taught the faith..(cuz I know you have not been taught it)...but if youwhere...and you left it...but still respected it..................then you would see where I am coming from.............

As you havent....then you CANT see where I am coming from...can you??

All I am doing is...trying to tell you that Catholics are not the only ones guilty of anything....other christians are too....you dwell on the past too too much Blue...thats your problem.....................when people cry and dwell on the past....they will generate HATE...Blue no offence...but thats what you have done...generated HATE.....and its not very christian of you either...I am not trying to be funny here...I am being serious

I have heard you out before in other topics....I have gotten to learn a lil bit more about you..and your faith....I like getting to know how someone feels..........

Blue..PRETEND if you where trying to convert me...............lets pretend I was intrested in what you had to say, in order to conver.... (remember pretend)...ok...

If you preached on about God...the bible...what certain things meant...ect..............YES I would hear you out...........but........if you preached on about another religious faith saying how horrible it is just because you believe it...then I would stop and think...hold up..is this guy trying to teach me how to show hate??? ...Ihave begun to listen..but he has gotten deeper and more agrovated....is this what his faith teaches others??? If so...count me out...

See this is the reason WHY..I wont follow a religious faith...because of the hate it holds deep within..............if people let go of the past...and look to the future....then more would flock...but when it shows hate of any kind...this is why people say...christianity is dying out....

Blue deep down there is something good about you..I pick up a good vibe...but something else is blocking you from showing it....I remember when you used to post (long ago) and not show any hate ....People that converted my mom...and yes my mom will tell you herself she did allow these christians convert her...one min she respected all beliefs...the next she didnt...why?? cuz thats what they put into her head....sad but true...I hate the fact my mother no longer follows what once made her kind towards others and respect them...now she looks down on them, saying they will all go to hell....SICK..but its a fact that christians do believe in this

im not digging through exchristian.net looking for them.

Hey blue that's pretty good you think just like me

OK, first of all you havent proved anything, just because the bible says so doesnt mean its true, this has been gone over in a countless number of threads, and there is no way in hell you can prove that the bible is real. it was written by man and that can be proved, man has an imagination, some people say "well how could someone come up with the whole bible and make up all that stuff?" our world is filled with great story tellers, im sure that someone could come up with a story just as convincing as the bible if given enough time. so just deal with it, there is no physical proof you can give to any of us that the bible is the real deal


you act like only the catholics have done evil things in the past, every different type of christian church has done something wrong, so dont only blame the catholics buddy



again, it says so in Revelation 13 and 17, that is part of the bible and you cnat prove that it is fact

Isn't it funny how the there are only prophecies of the bad events in history? Where's the good stuff and the love?



Weren't all christians burning "witches" at the stake a couple of centuries ago?

Its by the divine Providence of God. You can see it, it was written so long ago, and was fulfilled by every detail. Is that not enought evidence to give light to it. I could predict that a great earthquake will happen in the future, no problem. But I can't predict how many will be killed, what will be going on when it happens, and what cities will be involved. Details are neccessary in prophecy, and the Bible prophecy has details. Its up to you to believe it or not. If you don't, then its not proof to you. But I do believe it, and thus it is proof enough to me.

The good prophecies come after the bad. Why? Because the bad always resists the good. Always.

Yep, they were killing witches. But we don't justify it today do we? Its when you justify such cruel acts that you become guilty of it as well. Its like being an accomplis.