Today, I'd like a share a story with you guys about a forgotten man who lived during the 1800's. He claimed to be the next prophet. Please read.

Siyyid `Alí Muhammad (October 20, 1819 - July 9, 1850) was a merchant from Shiraz, Persia, who at the age of twenty-five claimed to be a new and independent Manifestation of God and the promised Qá'im (or Mihdí). After his declaration he took on the title of Báb meaning "Gate". Six years later he was shot by a firing squad in Tabriz.

Now you maybe be wondering, where is the miracle? Well, I'll tell you what miracle the Bab performed. Keep reading.

Execution order
In 1850 a new prime-minister ordered the execution of the Báb; he was brought to Tabriz, where he would be killed by a firing squad. The night before his execution, as he was being conducted to his cell, a young man, Anís (sometimes called Mulla Muhammad Ali), threw himself at the feet of the Báb, wanting to be killed with the Báb. He was immediately arrested and placed in the same cell as the Báb.

On the morning of July 9, 1850, the Báb was taken to a courtyard filled with nearly ten thousand people wishing to watch his execution. The Báb and Anís were suspended on a wall and the firing squad of 750 rifles prepared to shoot.
Now if you don't like reading very much, then this is a summary of what took place at the death

of the Bab:
On the morning of July 9, 1850 in Tabriz, a young Persian merchant known as the Báb was charged with apostasy and shot by order of the Prime Minister of the Persian Empire. The events surrounding his execution have been the subject of controversy among researchers, and are regarded as miraculous by Bahá'ís, who consider him to be a Prophet.

The Báb and one of his companions were suspended on a wall and a large firing squad prepared to shoot. When the smoke cleared after the first firing of bullets, the Báb was missing. Reports continue by stating that the Báb was found back in his prison room finishing dictation to his secretary. Other sources, which include Persian and European reports, give a variety of accounts, some in agreement with the miracle-like Bahá'í story, and some indicating a less miraculous event. All agree that he survived the first firing squad, and was killed by the second.
For many years after his death, the remains of the Báb were secretly transferred from place to place until they were brought to their final resting place at the Shrine of the Báb in Haifa on the middle terrace of the Bahá'í Gardens.

Is this a miracle or what? I mean there is no way this guy could have been this lucky. 750 RIFLES. Then he escapes without a single scratch, and his found somewhere else in his prison cell. This has to be a miracle. Though, the summary I have provided above is a bit confusing and unclear. Here are 4 more eyewitness accounts of what took place that day, ALL of them describing the same thing. The Bab had DISSAPEARED.

More eye witness accounts can be found at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bab

Well, it could just show that the guys aiming the guns were lousy shots, or it could show that the folks reporting the matter were operating on second hand (and highly inaccurate) information. It really doesn't prove anything, since at this late date it can only be classed as an urban legend.

1) All of the 750 men were lousy shots?

2) When the smoke cleared, he has vanished.

3) He was not hit by one single bullet. HTF does that happen?

But I just feel bad for Jesus when he returns.

The address you posted doesn't work, got another one.

Here ya go, working now.
http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bab/

many beleive alot of Urban myths, it sells storys but true naw.....

It's no, myth. See for yourself:

These events were witnessed by western journalists. Provided below is one source that is attributed to Sir Justin Shiel, Queen Victoria's Envoy Extraordinary and Minister Plenipotentiary in Tehran and written to Lord Palmerston, the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs July 22, 1850. This can be found in its original form as document F.O. 60/152/88 in the archives of the Foreign Office at the Public Records Office in London.

"The founder of the sect has been executed at Tabreez. He was killed by a volley of musketry, and his death was on the point of giving his religion a lustre which would have largely increased his proselytes. When the smoke and dust cleared away after the volley, Báb was not to be seen, and the populace proclaimed that he had ascended to the skies. The balls had broken the ropes by which he was bound, but he was dragged [not literally, of course] from the recess where after some search he was discovered and shot. His death, according to the belief of his disciples, will make no difference as Báb must always exist." [Quoted in Ferraby, 1975]

Wikipedia

Exe granted its a interesting story but there is no way to check it out for accuracy as all eye witnessess are dead..how convienent... highly suspect.....I would enjoy the lore but that is all....Maybe try to derive a allegoric depth but I wouldn't take it serious.....

I just wish I'm alive the day Jesus returns, so I can see what they're going to put that poor man through time around

Ex what makes you think there was a Jesus???? There is actually very little evidence he actually existed......I'm just asking.....

LOL well it's just a lil koo-koo to believe that 30% of the population believes in a lie. But to tell you the truth, I have no proof. That's where good ol faith kicks in. So I can only have faith. Plus, alot of people have a pretty good idea of what Jesus looked like:



even from 2000 years ago. And writing about him seem to suggest he existed. But that's pretty much all the evidence there is of him. Unless he returns some time in the near future that is. What would you say if he did. What would you say if you were face to face with him and he asked you "why couldn't you just have faith in me, and love God?"

The story in wiki didn't say anything about 750 guns. Why did he not do the same trick the second time?

"The firing squad was made up of 750 Armenian soldiers..."

"....smoke cleared, the crowd of 10,000 persons was amazed to find the Báb's companion standing, alive and unhurt, the ropes severed by the bullets. The Báb was nowhere to be seen. He was found, back in His cell, finishing His business with His secretary. The Báb then said to the guard, "I have finished My conversation. You may now proceed to fulfill your duty." The guard, remembering the rebuke he had received earlier, resigned his post, shaken to the core and cut himself off from the enemies of the Báb.

Again:

The bullet[s] instead of hitting him hit the rope with which he was hung and Mirza Ali Muhammad fled to a closet from which he was brought again. Mirza Jani [an early Bábí historian] is sure that the escape was due to the fact that he was not yet willing to be killed and therefore could not be killed, but willing or unwilling he had to submit to the same process a second time, and this time was killed.

A 750 man firing squad seems a little excessive, no?

Being unfamiliar with your professed religion, could you tell me if there is any significance to that number?

750 verses? or something similiar?



It seems plausible with that number of weapons being fired that the ropes would be severed, it does not state however, if he had been wounded by any of the shots.




Hell, at one point in time "everyone" >>KNEW<< the world was flat, why should 30% of the population surprise you?

Why is it fair to say that muhammed and other prophets existed but Jesus didn't? Everyone talks of Jesus like he was the only one to ever deliver the message of God. THERE ARE OTHER PROPHETS, and they confirmed Jesus' existence. Anyway. if you're going to disbelieve in prophets, then at least disbelieve in all of them. Don't just aim your doubt at one of them.

Anyway, look at the meaning of miracle. Then you'll see why I call the Babs escape a miracle.




".....10,000 persons was amazed to find the Báb's companion standing, alive and unhurt, the ropes severed by the bullets."

"It seemed, indeed, that his life had been preserved by a miracle, for, of the storm of bullets which had been aimed at him, not one had touched him; nay, instead of death they had brought him deliverance by cutting the ropes which bound him, so that he fell to the ground unhurt."

There ya go.

In Christianity, the belief that a person can achieve salvation only through faith and reliance on God’s grace, not through good deeds. The phrase is adapted from a sentence in the epistles of Paul in the Bible: “By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.” Whether the actions of human beings can contribute to this justification, in addition to God’s grace, was one of the great points of division among Christians at the time of the Reformation.


The New Dictionary of Cultural Literacy, Third Edition. 2002.

'me'

I accept that there have been many "prophets" - enlightened men who have tried to show a better path.

I just keep a healthy objectivity when it comes to proclaiming "miracles" writeen after the fact.

Wisdom of the elders....and very useful....


'me'

I guess I kind of do too, or not, maybe, ah WTf.

Don't misunderstand me: If your faith in the Bab brings you comfort and peace, then by all means, enjoy it. It is not now, nor never has been, my intention to cause anyone to stray from their chosen path. I merely wish that all will see that different paths are as valid as their own.

LOL don't worry about it, you're just giving your opinion, you didn't affect my opinions at all. Trying to change my views is like trying to break concrete with a tooth-pick.

The average execution squad consisted of two to six riflemen. In particularly significant or showy occasions, the number went up to ten. You don't even blink when you say 750 riflemen?

Think carefully about that. 750 riflemen. Shooting at one guy. That doesn't seem the slightest bit excessive to you? That doesn't hint that, maybe, a little exagerration might have taken place here?

Yes it does, I used to think it was 175 until I saw 750 on wikipedia. You're right, they might have something wrong.

Well, if you look at it another way 70% of the population would believe a lie otherwise! I would rather think that a small percentage of the population was believing in a lie than the majority of the population believing a lie....

The majority of the world believes the sun revolves around the Earth.

Doubt that, the industrialized nations have a population of over 4.2 billion...that leaves only 2.3 billion with questionable enought education to believe such...

Hate to break it to you, but industrialization is no guarantee of an educated public. In the U.S. alone, 20% of the population believe the sun revolves around the Earth.

Uneducated America

And at least that much of the unindustralized poplulation will be educated! Still a majority that believes the earth revolves around the sun,

You think the other countries are better off? All those 20% plus the 2.3 three you offered are going to add up to the majority.

Regardless of the numbers involved, the point is that science is not done by majority vote. What the popular belief is has little bearing on the actual scientific backing of a given phenomena. I am sure that a great many people believe that this particular chap was shot at by 750 rifles, disappeared, and re-appeared in his cell and continued with his dictation; whether or not that actually happened is anyones guess.

Personally, and without a shredd of evidence to support it, I would speculate that the wrong man was taken to the wall, shot by maybe five people, while other soldiers watched, the mistake was discovered, and the actual prisoner was found in his cell, dictating, and completly unaware that he had allegedly just been executed. From there, the story got seriously mangled in the retelling. Instead of the wrong person being placed at the wall, it was the right person who amazingly vanished. Instead of five people, it was every soldier present, and then everyone assigned to that post, who was shooting.

great post mako... speaking of majorities... 'a majority belief does not a truth make' .....or something like that...i'll have to ask micheal the exact quote... lol...

Actually, I do! I have lived in quite a few European and Asian countries and have observed the level of education among their citizens and excellence of their educational systems. Even nearly third world Greece has an education system that eclipses the best of American schools! You are trying to use America as the example of how many ignorant people exist in the industrialized nations. This can’t be done, Americans have the right to be stupid, but in other nations, this right does not exist! I would guesstimate that the 20% ignorance of America would translate to about 2% for the rest of the industrialized world. Even if you did grant 20% ignorance to the industrialized nations, you would have to grant 20% (actually probably more) educated persons to the non-industrialized world and the ignorant would still be in the minority…in fact the change would be only about an extra 400000000 ignoramuses, nowhere near enough to change the fact that the majority of humanity subscribe to Copernius’ theory!

Mako, another excellent post, No other country throws away the oppourtunity to a good education then americans....I have many asian friends and its unheard of to not get an education and a good one as you said........this would truly be better addressed by micheal, he has taught me much in regards to the educational system of america....very much as you are saying mako..... aquatis and mako this addresses some of the issues....http://whoweare.17.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=522#522

In my opinion this feat is pretty much physically impossible. Lets say that the average shooter occupies a space of approximately 2 feet wide, 750 men would make a line 1500 feet long

ok lets say there were 2 ranks one behind the other offset by 1 foot so each shooter in the second row was firing over the shoulders of the first row ( a scary thought). The line would still be over 750 feet long

If you draw 2 lines on a piece of paper 75 mm long in parallel with each other you can easily see that in order for a firing squad this big not to shoot each other, the target would have to be at least a couple hundred feet in front of them, if not more.

Nobody is going to be firing from a distance like that not too mention the safety of those other 10,000 targets in the same courtyard.

I was taught it was only 175 shooters, until I read 750 on wikipedia...

Still, you do realize that if you put 175 men side by side in a line, that they would need a minimum of about 350 feet and the target (safely) would have to be about 175 feet in front of them minimum?

That would have to be some courtyard to handle that plus 10,000 spectators?


My point being, that if they exagerated the numbers in the firing squad and the number of spectators, what else did they exagerate? (that was the most plausible part of the whole story)

Not exactly sure where it took place

Yeah... Penn and Teller would so debunk him!