Origins of wheat? Come on now, when humans first domesticated plants and animals roughly 12,000 years ago or 10,000 B.C. during the neolithic revolution, they altered the natural growth of strands of plants by selctively spreading the seeds of the plants with the most grains, fruit, thickest stocks ect. to get the most desirable food. So humans essentially altered strands of wild wheat and harvested a domesticated wheat. Again, basic Anthropology, I suggest you read. As for fruits having no seeds in them, A: the seeds in them were taken out, or B: humans genetically engineered these fruits so they have no seeds. Why would drug companies want to make us dependent on cures? Also, there is NO cure for AIDS or the Avian Bird Flu, because these are retro viruses and mutate approx. every 1 : 10,000 times they replicate. Why would humans want to kill off their own people? Your idea makes no sense, and seems like its from a bunch of conspiracy theorists who have no evidence for any of this happening. Crazy people!

- Bokonon

for a start...

http://www.motherearthnews.com/Whole_Foods...ises_and_Perils
End of the Germ Line The invention of the terminator gene spells the end of the germ line for engineered food and commercial speicies. Is this the beginning of the end of evolution? On March 3 Delta and Pine Land Co. (Mississippi, USA) and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) announced that they received US Patent No. 5,723,765 on a new genetic technology designed to prevent unauthorized seed saving by farmers. The patented technology, "Control of plant gene expression" would allow seed companies to control the viability of progeny seed without harming the crop. In other words, the new technology genetically alters the seed so that it will not germinate if re-planted a second time. The company Delta and Pine Land has been bought by Monsanto.

http://www.dhushara.com/book/genes/genaug/mar28.htm
I actually have spoke to a few who work in the scientific field who say these things are going on...



..and for a start in the drug companies area......


http://www.pahealthsystems.com/message498251.html



Fair enough, but here's an alternate theory: health costs are zooming
upwards in part because millions of more-or-less healthy Americans are
being misled into thinking that they actually have diseases and
disorders that require expensive medical treatment. No? Too outlandish?
Consider this story. In 1998, Lilly, one of the world's largest
pharmaceutical companies, was on the verge of losing its patent on
fluoxetine (more commonly known as Prozac) worth over $2 billion
annually. However, if Lilly could find a new use for the drug, the
patent could be extended. That year, Lilly helped fund a "roundtable"
of researchers to gather in Washington D.C., along with staff from the
Food and Drug Administration to discuss a scientifically controversial
condition called "premenstrual dysphoric disorder" (PMDD), which had
only recently, and after much controversy, been included in the
appendix of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual‹the bible of
psychiatric disorders‹as a disorder "under evaluation." But the
Lilly-funded researchers soon published an article in a small medical
journal suggesting, falsely, that the debate was over and that PMDD
could now be considered a "distinct clinical entity," distinct from the
stress and tension that can accompany ordinary PMS.

Lilly has not said what role it played in turning the "roundtable" into
a journal article, but by 1999, the article helped convince the FDA to
approve the use of fluoxetine to treat PMDD‹and extended the patent
until 2007. Lilly simply repackaged the drug in lavender pill-form,
renamed it Serafem, and began marketing it to women. Never mind that
independent researchers questioned whether PMDD even existed as a
condition. Never mind that Europe's drug regulators raised serious
questions about PMDD and criticized Lilly's clinical trials that
purported to show the benefits of Serafem. Never mind that even the
industry-friendly FDA was appalled at Lilly's television ads, with
their too-vague tagline: "Think it's PMS? It could be PMDD." Undaunted,
Lilly continued its advertising barrage, trying to convince women who
thought they were experiencing regular PMS-related distress that,
actually, they might well have a serious disorder that required heavy
medication. Soon thereafter, both Pfizer and GSK got their own
anti-depressants approved for treating PMDD. For all intents and
purposes, the "debate" over whether PMDD was a disorder‹let alone
requiring medication with serious side-effects‹was over. Industry money
had carried the day.

From a pharmaceutical company's perspective, the big money can be made
not only by selling drugs to the sick, but by selling drugs to the
healthy, the people who don't even know that they need drugs yet. A
recent Reuters Business Insight report, designed for drug company
executives, suggested that the drug companies can reap billions by
"creat[ing] new disease markets." That involves convincing people that
"problems they may previously have accepted as, perhaps, an
inconvenience"‹such as, for instance, the distress that can accompany
PMS‹are in fact "worthy of medical intervention." In other words,
nothing short of the medicalization of everyday troubles. Cheerfully,
the report believes that drug companies are up to the task: "The coming
years will bear greater witness to the corporate sponsored creation of
disease."

If it sounds ominous, it is. As Ray Moynihan and Alan Cassels document
in their new book, Selling Sickness, the "corporate sponsored creation
of disease" is rapidly gaining ground, often with appalling results. To
be sure, many diseases are obviously very real and the latest
treatments can often do a world of good. But some health problems are
so mild or temporary‹high-blood pressure, for instance, or
menopause‹that powerful treatments can often do more harm than simply
leaving it alone. Yet that hasn't stopped drug industry from tapping
its multi-billion dollar marketing budget to "raise awareness" for new
illnesses or ginning up scare stories over light medical conditions.
The gap between "marketing messages and scientific truthsŠ is often as
wide as it is frightening," say the authors, and this book is an
attempt to bridge that gap


Here are some strategies for marketing illnesses. The first thing to do
is to hire a PR firm to "brand" a certain condition. When GSK, an
American drug company, wanted to repackage its best-selling
anti-depressent, Paxil, to treat "social anxiety disorder"‹a
questionable variation of "social phobia" that requires medication
rather than therapy‹it hired PR firm Cohn & Wolfe to help raise
awareness about the condition. Slogans were developed: "Imagine being
allergic to people." Posters depicting sad men and women brought to
light the symptoms, which only seem like normal nervousness to the
untrained eye: "You blush, you sweat, shake‹even find it hard to
breath. That's what social anxiety disorder feels like." Journalists
were faxed press releases so that they could write up
attention-grabbing stories about the new disorder in the New York Times
and Wall Street Journal. (Does the deadline-pressed journalist need a
bit of color for her story? No problem! Patient-advocacy groups,
usually funded by drug companies, can provide patients to interview.)
GSK even got university of California psychiatrist Murray Stein to
vouch for the drug. Stein, it turns out, was a paid consultant to
seventeen drug companies, including GSK, and had run company-funded
trials of Paxil to treat social anxiety disorder.

Here are some strategies for marketing illnesses. The first thing to do
is to hire a PR firm to "brand" a certain condition. When GSK, an
American drug company, wanted to repackage its best-selling
anti-depressent, Paxil, to treat "social anxiety disorder"‹a
questionable variation of "social phobia" that requires medication
rather than therapy‹it hired PR firm Cohn & Wolfe to help raise
awareness about the condition. Slogans were developed: "Imagine being
allergic to people." Posters depicting sad men and women brought to
light the symptoms, which only seem like normal nervousness to the
untrained eye: "You blush, you sweat, shake‹even find it hard to
breath. That's what social anxiety disorder feels like." Journalists
were faxed press releases so that they could write up
attention-grabbing stories about the new disorder in the New York Times
and Wall Street Journal. (Does the deadline-pressed journalist need a
bit of color for her story? No problem! Patient-advocacy groups,
usually funded by drug companies, can provide patients to interview.)
GSK even got university of California psychiatrist Murray Stein to
vouch for the drug. Stein, it turns out, was a paid consultant to
seventeen drug companies, including GSK, and had run company-funded
trials of Paxil to treat social anxiety disorder.

"Genesis of Eden Diversity Encyclopedia" " Last Thread Next Thread Author Elliot"

Look at where you're getting your sources! Jeez, Genesis of Eden on genetic engineering? what the Heck? You've got a religious source on genetic engineering, and your other source is from a site like this on debate, which is a thread someone POSTED, which could be very much false. My advice to you, find more reliable sources and establish your own ideas don't just post those of others on here all the time. And back to the topic of Atlantis.... It might exist, however I think Plato exaggerated the time period and the size.

- Bokonon

Why would drug companies want to make us dependent on cures?

- Bokonon
[/quote]


I think that is fairly self explanatory.

Drug companies don't CURE a thing. They treat it. That is modern medecine.


Chris Rock put it best...."The money's not in the cure; the money's in the medecine."

%#$@^

Can't believd I just spelled medicine wrong. Sheeesh......

True.. they want money, but they wouldn't want to make everyone sick as Crystal sage suggested, and yes they do treat it that was part of my argument for no cures to the bird flu or HIV virus have been found yet.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?con...;articleId=3082

Well as to the 'Terminator Seeds'...I actually found out about them 20 odd years ago,..when they were first working on them... I asked them if they felt good about what they were doing...and pointed out the possible consequences...but they had tunnel vision... It was a job to them... and an exciting new project...a challenge..to see if it could be done!!!


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu

Off-topic.. and back to the topic of Atlantis....

Sorry, I am guilty too.

i'm sorry if im interruppting with your discussion, but what does the pharmacy tricking money from you have to do with atlantis?

I was simply saying earlier in the thread that the old civilations such as Atlantis...and the other old sunken cities of the world probably disappeared after going thru similar situations as we are in danger of creating or going thru... here's the posting...

"There is talk about magnetic Pole Reversals too... and what if they played with genetics way back then..and biological warfare as we are doing now... There is lots of ancient legends of cloning..genetic manipulation of plants etc... some weird tales about the origins of wheat...

The Sodom and Gemorrah tale sounds much like a nuclear explosion....

http://www.zenzibar.com/news/article.asp?id=1768
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-abr/abr-a007.html

the way modern gentics are breeding plants with no seeds...to encourage us to buy more from huge corporations... ( it really is happening... and what if those genitic mutations leap to our other foodstuffs...I've have bought many fruits..apples and pears especially that have no seeds in them!!!)...so food will slowly decrease...and then the innoculations..and according to conspiracists...chemtrails...bacteria..viruses let loose into the population..to make us dependant on drug companies for cures...eg bird flue...aids...maybe???)

http://members.tripod.com/c_rader0/gemod.htm
http://www.thebooktree.com/ehaa.html
http://www.gaytoday.badpuppy.com/garchive/...th/020899he.htm
http://whale.to/b/cantwell19.html
That could easily wiped out populations in the past..just like they are in danger of doing now!!!!!!! "


"And lo, I witnessed the vast seas rise forth like a great ravenous beast, a
devouring maelstrom of cataclysmic fury; and the gleaming spires and citadels
of proud, ancient Atlantis were consumed, to gleam no more... save in the
dreams of sorcerers and warriors... aye, and poets and kings.
The astral testimony of Altarus the Traveller"

[quote name='crystal sage' date='Oct 16 2006, 12:19 AM' post='1391250']
I was simply saying earlier in the thread that the old civilations such as Atlantis...and the other old sunken cities of the world probably disappeared after going thru similar situations as we are in danger of creating or going thru...


I agree Crystal. Just short of aliens landing or Jesus coming down to and saying "What in the hell are you guys doing?!" our world will probably not change.


There are some MAJOR things wrong these days, and I despair at the future for myself let alone my children. Human beings, like it or not, really like to repeat history, one of our great weaknesses. We get stubborn very quickly and seem to forget that we today are NOT the most advanced form of life to ever exist.

As 'masters of the universe' we really need to take a good look at the past....what happened, what caused it, and can we change things this time.

The answer of course is 'yes' but unfortunately another trait we lack is reason.

I do not have all of the answers, but when I meet my maker I can say that I tried to share knowledge that I have.

"I don't want to change the world; I want the world to change."

CLICKY FOR ATLANTIS NEWS

MVxK I see no real evidence to support that view.

There was not a single piece of real evidence given in that article.

Instead they say that a so called expert noticed a similarity here.

Not a very good article sorry. They say they think Plato made a mistake. Thats funny because his is the only evidence. So if they claim it is faulty then their is no evidence.

The only thing that would add to the debate would be to find a complete copy of Critias. Some people say that Plato never completed it. Others claim it was partially destroyed at Alexandria.

No one knows for sure, but that is the only thing that i would really consider proof. Or of course Pre-Plato writings.

I didn't offer it as proof of anything, I just thought it was interesting.

So why do you take Plato's word as truth? Surely Atlantis is just another story. Just because a book is written x number of years ago doesn't make it fact.

I certainly don't take it as truth. Personally i consider it nothing more then a fable.

I have read many of Platos great works of fiction and I don't see Critias or Timaeus as any different

Good. Just checking.

No, Thera was it's own state, and is thought to have been part of some sort of confederation with Crete. The cultures extant on both island nations, named the "Minoan" culture by the archaeologist that discovered the Cretan one, were not affiliated in any way (other than trade) with the Egyptian state.


The Theran Minoans died when their entire island exploded in around 1630 BC. The cataclysm also is thought to have practically wiped out the Minoans on Crete at the time, though this culture, which had been decimated several times before, eventually did rebuild.

There is no Egyptian myth about Thera, although there is some strong evidence that the trading partner that the Egyptians referred to as "Keftiu" was actually the Minoans on Crete.


You think correctly sir (or madame)! Congratulations. Even Plato hints that the story is fictional in the introduction to The Timaeus:



The above mentioned "...city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction" refers to the fictionalized society that Plato laid out in "The Republic," the Dialogue that directly preceded The Critias and The Timaeus in Plato's Dialogues.

It is clear from this portion of the Timaeus Dialogue that the Atlantean tale is to be taken as one of morality, a fable created to critique the Athens of Plato's time, the Athens which slew Plato's friend and mentor, Socrates.

Harte

This is very curious to say the least.

We have what, a paraghraph at best of a reference of Atlantis and here 32 posts later and 100's of web sites on this city/country/Island/Land Mass.

Even 'knowing' they had advanced technologies and well, wow!

We know so much about Atlantis from just a general reference.

This is totally incredible.

When do we start looking for Narnia? When do we start looking for Middle Earth?

J -

It's so interesting!

let's go i'm game i just need to go to the centre of the earth first and ask the nazi's if we can borrow a plane lol


oh my god!!!!!!!! ATLANTIS ISN'T REAL COME ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!

32 posts 32!!!!!!

*crys uncontrollably and starts rocking backwards and forwards babbling ''it's not real'' it's not real''

The POSTS should of been PAGES - Sorry - make that 32 PAGES and 470+ Posts.

J -

ANCIENT WRITINGS

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pre-Platonic Writings Pertinent to Atlantis

by R. Cedric Leonard






http://www.atlantisquest.com/Writings.html

Scholars the world over have repeatedly declared that ancient sources describing Atlantis are plentiful, "but before Plato - nothing". They make such a declaration because of several reasons. (1) They disregard every record in which Atlantis is not mentioned by name. (2) In their skepticism they disregard records which mention Atlantis by name. (3) They are unfamiliar with the Sanskrit writings of India.


Let us use an example from a hundred years before Plato in which Herodotus, the "father of history," mentions Atlantis by name in referring to the body of water into which it sank. Here is the Greek text of a portion of Clio (History, Bk I, 202) in which the waters outside the Pillars of Hercules is said to be known as the Atlantis Sea.

But one of the mouths of the Araxes flows with clarity into the Caspian Sea; but the Caspian Sea is by itself, not connected to the other sea. For the sea navigated by the Greeks, also that outside of the Pillars called the Atlantis Sea and the Erythraean, are one and the same." (Translated by R. Cedric Leonard)

One does not need to be a Greek scholar to recognize the word "Atlantis" in the above Greek text (line 5, 3rd word from the left). Many of my colleagues insist that the phrase should be translated "the sea of Atlas" instead of the Atlantis Sea. While it is true that Atlantis is an inflected form of Atlas, these very same colleagues have never suggested that when Plato speaks of the "island of Atlantis" it would be more properly translated as the "island of Atlas". The island and the ocean were called "Atlantis" because they were named after Atlas (which is what the name "Atlantis" means).


The point here, which cannot be gainsaid, is that Atlantis was known before Plato--so well-known that the sea outside Gibraltar was commonly called the Atlantis Sea in Herodotus' time. It had acquired that name because Atlantis had once occupied that area. We carry the same tradition down when we refer to that same body of water as the Atlantic. While in Europe, I noticed that their maps label the same ocean "Atlantischer," preserving the word "Atlantis" intact.


In the above quote, Herodotus also mentions another name of the Atlantic, the Erythraean. The word in Greek indicates the color red--descriptive of the effect of sunset on the water, as would be seen from a European vantage point. (Note: It is this word, not Geryon, that means "red glow of the sunset," Ignatius Donnelly notwithstanding; 1882 edition, p. 307). But even a minimal amount of research demonstrates that the Atlantic Ocean had yet another more common name in ancient times.


Ancient Egyptian, Sanskrit and European sources (e.g., Pliny the Elder) often refer to the Atlantic Ocean as the "Western Ocean"--important if one is looking for ancient records of Atlantis. It is a given that any records dating back before Plato are going to be hard to find; but even though the pickings are slim, records which have been overlooked by most modern scholars do exit.


As we encounter these writings, it should be noted that Atlantis itself is sometimes represented by various spellings (sometimes even unnamed); but it should also be noted that when the context is properly considered, there is no doubt about the identity of the island being referenced. And, as will be demonstrated, there is no doubt that the "Western Ocean" mentioned is indeed the Atlantic.


According to Critias, Solon was given the story by the Egyptian priests at Sais which they had obtained from engraved columns in the temples of Egypt. Manetho, whose writings form the basis of our knowledge of ancient Egyptian history, obtained his famous King-Lists from similar sources. So what about this source?

THE EGYPTIAN WRITINGS

I encountered this first example in a rare book I have in my library written by the noted explorer, Harold T. Wilkins. According to Wilkins (1946) there is a depiction of a great festival on column 8 of the Great Hall of the temple of Rameses at Karnak, with an accompanying text memorializing the loss of a drowned continent in the Western Ocean. The column mentioned cannot be easily dismissed, and is a perfect example of the type of source to which Solon (in Plato's Timaeus) refers.


Plato described Atlantis as being ruled by ten kings before its demise. Egyptian king-lists going back thousands of years before Plato (we will look at one example here) establish four important facts which we should notice. They are:


1) Egyptian tradition begins with the "reign of the gods"
2) In all there were ten of these so-called "god-kings"
3) They were said to have reigned in a foreign country
4) From all appearances they were called "Atlanteans"


This last statement will be challanged by scholars, so let's take a closer look at the Egyptian king-lists. One noticable fact is that Manetho (250 B.C.) calls the first series of kings who ruled during the "reign of the gods," Auriteans. This seems to be nothing more than a corruption of the word "Atlantean". Let me explain.


Egyptian hieroglyphics only approximate real sounds: for instance, a hieroglyphic "k" must be used to represent the hard "g" sound. The hieroglyph that Manetho transcribed as r can equally be transcribed as an l. Thus the "Auriteans" of Manetho's king-lists could just as well be "Auliteans": phonetically almost identical to "Atlanteans". This idea obtains credible support from the fact that the ancient Phoenician historian Sanchuniathon (1193 B.C.) calls these very same kings Aleteans (Cory, 1826).


Although there are numerous ancient Egyptian king-lists in existence, only a few include the famous "reign of the gods". These include the Palermo Stone (2565-2420 B.C.), the Turin Papyrus (1300 B.C.), and Manetho's Egyptian Chronicles (250 B.C.). Of these, the Turin Papyrus is by far the most complete source.


The Turin Papyrus (Gardiner, 1987; Smith, 1872) lists ten kings who ruled during the "reign of the gods," complimenting the fragments of Manetho which have come down to us. Most importantly, it allows us to equate the Egyptian names with the Greek names given by Manetho. Below is a list of god-kings from the Turin Papyrus, with Manetho's fragmented list alongside:


PTAH. . . . Hephaestus
RA . . . . . . Helios
SU. . . . . . . Agathodaemon
SEB . . . . . Cronos
OSIRIS . . Osiris
SET. . . . . . Typhon
HORUS. . . . . . .
THOTH. . . . . . .
MA . . . . . . . . . .
HORUS . . Horus



So we have ten Aulitean (or, Aletean) kings reigning in a "foreign land" during the precise time Plato says ten Atlantean kings reigned in Atlantis. The Turin Papyrus also records the installation of the next series of kings in 9850 B.C.! This date is so close to the date given for the end of Atlantis that coincidence is virtually out of the question. In such a case, the equation "Aletean=Atlantean" doesn't seem out of the question. (For more info, return to HOME Page and click on Mythological Traditions or the Writings from Egypt icon.)

THE SANSKRIT WRITINGS


The Sanskrit writings of ancient India contain several descriptions of Atlantis, and even assert that Atlantis was destroyed as the result of a war between the gods and Asuras (recalling the war between the gods and the Titans). Present day scholars are so steeped in Greek and Roman (western) literature that Indian sources are too often ignored.


A passage in Sanskrit from the Mahabharata


The Vishnu Purana (2000 B.C.), one of the oldest of the Hindu Puranas, speaks of Atala, the "White Island," one of the seven dwipas (islands) belonging to Patala (Book II, chaps. i, ii, and iii). This old text locates Atala geographically on the seventh (heat, or climate) zone, which according to Francis Wilford (the translator) is 24 to 28 degrees north latitude, putting it in the same latitude as the Canary Islands just off the North African coast. Col. Wilford rightly calls Atala, "Atlantis, the White Island". (Wilford, 1808)


At least one "authority" has attempted to identify Atala with Italy, but Italy is not an island. Also, Italy is 38 to 45 degrees north latitude. Finally, I fail to see any possibility that the "Western Ocean," mentioned as its location, could be the Mediterranean when the Karna Parva of the Mahabharata clearly describes Africa as comprising that ocean's eastern shoreline. If the ocean mentioned is the Atlantic Ocean, then the west shore of Africa would make up a large part of its eastern shoreline.


Another non-Sanskrit scholar implies that Atala might be one of the well-known northern lands, such as Iceland or Greenland, and that the epithet "White Island" refers to its being covered with snow the majority of the time--even the mythological Hyperborea has been suggested. Unfortunately, this does not seem to be the case.


Atala and Sveta Dwipa ("White Island") are not the only names for Atlantis in Sankrit lore. Another name, Saka Dwipa, is used just as often in the Puranas; and according to the Sanskrit Dictionary, Saka Dwipa means "island of fair skinned people." It seems quite probable that "white" refers to the islands inhabitants, rather than to the dominant color of the island--although it should not be imagined that all Atlanteans were white.


The terms "Atala" and "White Island" are used also by the Bhavishna Purana. Here it is stated that Samba, having built a temple dedicated to Surya (the Sun), made a journey to Saka Dwipa, located "beyond the salt water" looking for the Magas (magicians), worshippers of the Sun. He is directed in his journey by Surya himself (i.e., journeys west following the Sun), riding upon Garuda (the flying vehicle of Krishna and Vishnu) he lands at last among the Magas.


The Mahabharata also refers to "Atala, the White Island", which is described as an "island of great splendour." It continues: "The men that inhabit that island have complexions as white as the rays of the Moon and they are devoted to Narayana . . . Indeed, the denizens of White Island believe and worship only one God." (Santi Parva, Section CCCXXXVII)


This well-known Sanskrit epic contains more than one account of a powerful islandic empire in the Atlantic which sank to the bottom of the "Western Ocean" following a horrendous war. It doesn't take much imagination to link Atala with Atlantis. (For more information, click on War of the Gods either here, or after going to the "Aircraft from India" page, via the appropriate icon on Home Page.)


The Santi Parva also describes Atala as being inhabited by white men who never have to sleep or eat. (Ibid.) Interestingly enough, the Greek historian Herodotus (450 B.C.) describes a tribe of Atlanteans who "never dream and eat no living thing". (History, Book IV) Can this be coincidence? And just as the god Poseidon is very much involved in the Atlantis story, likewise in the Sanskrit accounts we find Varuna (the Hindu Poseidon) very much involved in Atala.


Another description is remarkably similar to Plato's, even down to its circular capital city, Tripura! Tripura is made in three concentric parts, just as Plato's Metropolis is divided into three parts by concentric canals. During the war of the gods and Asuras, the wicked cities of the Asuras began to fall, one by one, amidst loud cries of woe. "Burning those Asuras, he [the hero] threw them down into the Western ocean" (Karna Parva, Section XXXIV).


Concerning the "concentric arrangment" of Tripura, a recent archeological discovery of a fortified palace in Bactria, India, known as Dashly-3, turned out to be a concentric 3-ringed structure of the "tripura type". [Their words, not mine.] The archaeologists, excavating under the auspices of the Archaeological Departments of Pakistan and India (Mahadevan, 15), also state that the Dasyas, the builders of Dashly-3, were "Asura-worshippers".


In the Surya Siddhanta, an ancient Sanskrit text on astronomy, the translator (W. D. Whitney, 1860) mentions an "island" (dwipa) called Jambu Dwipa, surrounded by rings of alternating land and water. I am tempted to equate Jambu Dwipa with the Atlantean capital, which Plato describes as surrounded by circular canals, "making alternate zones of sea and land" (Critias).


The geographical specifics given in the above writings render the location of the powerful island civilization known as Atala beyond question: Atala was a large island, containing numerous cities, located off the western shore of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean. Following a tremendous war, the island with all its cities and inhabitants, was sent burning to the bottom of that ocean, after which peace prevailed. To attempt to separate these accounts from Plato's Atlantis is an exercise in triviality.


I believe the above accounts constitute ample evidence that my years of research have not been wasted. Perhaps literary scholars' assertion that no pre-Platonic accounts of Atlantis exist should be seriously reconsidered.

TOP of Page
Bibliography

Champollion, Jean Francois (translator), Turin Papyrus, 1300 B.C.
Cory, Isaac Preston., Ancient Fragments, London, 1832.
Diodorus Siculus, Library of History, Book III, 54.1, 8 B.C.
Donnelly, Ignatius, "Atlantis: the Antediluvian World," Harper & Brothers, New York, 1882.
Gardiner, Sir Alan H. (translator), "The Royal Canon of Turin," Griffith Institute, Oxford, 1987.
Herodotus, "History": Book I, Clio (Leonard's translation), 450 B.C.
Herodotus, "History": Book IV, Melpomene (Rawlinson's translation), 450 B.C.
Leonard, R. Cedric, Quest for Atlantis, Manor Books, New York, 1979.
Manetho, Egyptian Dynasties, 250 B.C. (from the text of Dindorf & compared with Eusebius)
Plato, Critias Dialogue (Benjamin Jowett's translation), 360 B.C.
Roy, Protep Chandra (translator), Mahabharata, 700 B.C., Calcutta.
Sanchuniathon, History of the Phoenicians, 1193 B.C. (Eusebius Praep. Evang., l.c. 10.)
Smith, George, "The Chaldean Account of Genesis," London, 1872.
Whitney, W. D., "Surya Siddhanta," The Journal of the American Oriental Society, Vol. VI, Yale College, New Haven, 1860.
Wilford, Francis, Journal of Asiatic Researches, Vol. VIII, Calcutta, 1808.
Wilkins, Harold T., Mysteries of Ancient South America, Rider & Co., London, 1946.


http://www.loyno.edu/history/journal/1998-9/Pipes.htm

http://atlantis.haktanir.org/ch10.html

Herodotus also says in "History", when talking about Egyptians: "When the Nile comes over the land, the cities alone are seen rising above the water, resembling more nearly than anything else the islands in the Aegean Sea; for the rest of Egypt becomes a sea and the cities alone rise above water. [...] Of Min, who first became king of Egypt, the priests said that on the one hand he banked off the site of Memphis from the river: for the whole stream of the river used to flow along by the sandy mountain-range on the side of Libya, but Min formed by embankments that bend of the river which lies to the South about a hundred furlongs above Memphis, and thus he dried up the old stream and conducted the river so that it flowed in the middle between the mountains: and even now this bend of the Nile is by the Persians kept under very careful watch, that it may flow in the channel to which it is confined, and the bank is repaired every year; for if the river should break through and overflow in this direction, Memphis would be in danger of being overwhelmed by flood."

You can see the Mount Atlas in Morocco, and two cities, one called Atlantes and one called Alarantes. Could the meson-mezon confusion have meant instead of "Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean", Atlantis, a great island (peninsula, coastline), between Libya and Asia, that sank and became a barrier of mud for the travelers to the Atlantic Ocean?



"The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum." Yellow, silver, red. So the orichalcum is red. Good for our quest for such a metal, or maybe gem. If you remember, Herodotus mentions the Phoenician temple of Hercules having one column or gold and the other of emerald, so some precious stone is not out of the question.

this is really quite lengthy...but if you look at the site..they have interesting old maps etc..to support their theory......








http://atlantis.haktanir.org/ch3.html

Plato continues:

"Let me begin by observing, first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between all those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and those who dwelt within them: this war I am now to describe. Of the combatants on the one side the city of Athens was reported to have been the ruler, and to have directed the contest; the combatants on the other side were led by the kings of the islands of Atlantis, which, as I was saying, once had an extent greater than that of Libya and Asia; and, when afterward sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to the ocean.

[...] Many great deluges have taken place during the nine thousand years, for that is the number of years which have elapsed since the time of which I am speaking; and in all the ages and changes of things there has never been any settlement of the earth flowing down from the mountains, as in other places, which is worth speaking of; it has always been carried round in a circle, and disappeared in the depths below. The consequence is that, in comparison of what then was, there are remaining in small islets only the bones of the wasted body, as they may be called, all the richer and softer parts of the soil having fallen away, and the mere skeleton of the country being left.

[...] In one day and one fatal night, there came mighty earthquakes and inundations that engulfed that warlike people.

[...] Zeus, the god of gods, who rules according to law, and is able to see into such things, perceiving that an honorable race was in a woeful plight, and wanting to inflict punishment on them, that they might be chastened and improve, collected all the gods into their most holy habitation, which, being placed in the centre of the world, beholds all created things. And when he had called them together, he spoke as follows-*" (worked was left unfinished here, because Plato died)

You can read the full work of Plato's "Dialogues" here.

As one deducts, Atlantis was sunk by the will of Gods, through flood(s) and earthquake(s). The Bible, in Genesis, follows the same path:

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. [...] For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth."

Ignatius Donnelly, in his book, "Atlantis, the Antediluvian World" (1884), mentions an old sacred book of Babylon. The Chaldean stories (there are two) agree on this:

"Cronos (Ea) appeared to him in his sleep, and announced that on the fifteenth of the month of Daisios (the Assyrian month Sivan--a little before the summer solstice) all men should perish by a flood. He therefore commanded him to take the beginning, the middle, and the end of whatever was consigned to writing, and to bury it in the City of the Sun, at Sippara; then to build a vessel, and to enter it with his family and dearest friends; to place in this vessel provisions to eat and drink, and to cause animals, birds, and quadrupeds to enter it; lastly, to prepare everything, for navigation. And when Xisuthros inquired in what direction he should steer his bark, be was answered, 'toward the gods,' and enjoined to pray that good might come of it for men."

Most of the tribes of Indians in North America have legends that talk about the flood.

The same story appears in Mesopotamia.

"There was a time when Enlil, the most powerful of the Gods, was displeased with mankind and decided to send a flood that no living being could survive. But the verdict seemed to harsh to Ea, a fellow-god, who forewarned his favorite mortal, Utnapishtin, in a dream. Taking heed, Utnapishtin built a boat for himself and loaded it with his family and 'the seed of all living creatures... the game of the field, and all the craftsmen'. The boat weathered the storm, which raged for six days and six nights." (according to "Cradle of Civilization", Time Life Books) Sumerians started their civilization in 3000 BC and when on till 2000 BC. Hebrews started their civilization in 1200 BC. The story of the flood exists in all Near Eastern Cultures, as for Hebrews, they are mentioned as "Hibru" existing among other populations before they have formed their own state.

Our scientists agree that a flood occurred 10-15,000 years ago.

My conclusion: Since all these old civilizations mentioned Atlantis in a form or another, or the destruction of an Atlantis-like island and a big flood, it's hard to imagine that they've all been lying or re-telling a story told to them. People in those times were pretty interested in their stories and tradition was everything. I would rather guess that the story had a common root, based on evidence. The survivors of the destruction scattered and landed on the closest areas from the sunk island. Then the story of the sunk land was passed on, and became the basis of religion (more on this in my future project)

.

II. Is Atlantis Lost Indeed?

Herodotus, in his "History", Vol.1, has a few passages about "Atlantis".

"184. From the Garmantians at a distance again of ten days' journey there is another hill of salt and spring of water, and men dwell round it called Atarantians, who alone of all men about whom we know are nameless; for while all taken together have the name Atarantians, each separate man of them has no name given to him. These utter curses against the Sun when he is at his height, and moreover revile him with all manner of foul terms, because he oppresses them by his burning heat, both themselves and their land. After this at a distance of ten days' journey there is another hill of salt and spring of water, and men dwell round it. Near this salt hill is a mountain named Atlas, which is small in circuit and rounded on every side; and so exceedingly lofty is it said to be, that it is not possible to see its summits, for clouds never leave them either in the summer or in the winter. This the natives say is the pillar of the heaven. After this mountain these men got their name, for they are called Atlantians; and it is said that they neither eat anything that has life nor have any dreams.

185. As far as these Atlantians I am able to mention in order the names of those who are settled in the belt of sand; but for the parts beyond these I can do so no more. However, the belt extends as far as the Pillars of Heracles and also in the parts outside them: and there is a mine of salt in it at a distance of ten days' journey from the Atlantians, and men dwelling there; and these all have their houses built of the lumps of salt, since these parts of Libya which we have now reached are without rain; for if it rained, the walls being made of salt would not be able to last: and the salt is dug up there both white and purple in color.Above the sand-belt, in the parts which are in the direction of the South Wind and towards the interior of Libya, the country is uninhabited, without water and without wild beasts, rainless and treeless, and there is no trace of moisture in it.

194. Next to these are the Gyzantes, among whom honey is made in great quantity by bees, but in much greater quantity still it is said to be made by men, who work at it as a trade. However that may be, these all smear themselves over with red ochre and eat monkeys, which are produced in very great numbers upon their mountains.

195. Opposite these, as the Carthaginians say, there lies an island called Kyrauis, two hundred furlongs in length but narrow, to which one may walk over from the mainland; and it is full of olives and vines. In it they say there is a pool, from which the native girls with birds' feathers smeared over with pitch bring up gold-dust out of the mud. Whether this is really so I do not know, but I write that which is reported; and nothing is impossible, for even in Zakynthos I saw myself pitch brought up out of a pool of water. There are there several pools, and the largest of them measures seventy feet each way and is two fathoms in depth. Into this they plunge a pole with a myrtle-branch bound to it, and then with the branch of the myrtle they bring up pitch, which has the smell of asphalt, but in other respects it is superior to the pitch of Pieria. This they pour into a pit dug near the pool; and when they have collected a large quantity, then they pour it into the jars from the pit: and whatever thing falls into the pool goes under ground and reappears in the sea, which is distant about four furlongs from the pool. Thus then the report about the island lying near the coast of Libya is also probably enough true.

196. The Carthaginians say also this, namely that there is a place in Libya and men dwelling there, outside the Pillars of Heracles, to whom when they have come and have taken the merchandise forth from their ships, they set it in order along the beach and embark again in their ships, and after that they raise a smoke; and the natives of the country seeing the smoke come to the sea, and then they lay down gold as an equivalent for the merchandise and retire to a distance away from the merchandise."

Usually Herodotus, when referring to the countries or cities, 'outside the Pillars of Heracles' usually talks about the western coasts of Africa and Europe that open to the Atlantic Ocean. He doesn't mean "islands' in the Atlantic like you would guess.

A Roman scholar mentioning the existence of a 'world' outside the Pillars is Aelianus Claudius, also known as Aelian (c. 175 - c. 235). Even though he was Roman, he spoke Greek so perfectly that he was called 'honey-tongued'. He preferred to write in archaic Greek.

In his work, Varia Historia (Various History), he talks also about natural wonders and strange local customs. Unfortunately, the book was translated only three times in English, once by Fleming (1576), then by Stanley (1665), and the last translation was made nowadays by Diane Ostrom Johnson, in 1997. I used a French translation of the text.

Here is a little quote I have translated from the French version (in book iii, chapter xviii):

"If one believes Theopompus, Midas, king de the Phrygians, discussed one day with Silene (Silene was sun of a nymph, and for this reason, though it was by his birth of an order lower than the gods, as them, nevertheless, he was immortal, and extremely above the condition of the men). After having discussed various things, Silene called to Midas:

'Europe, Asia and Libya are islands which the floods of the Ocean bathe on all sides: out of the enclosure of this world there is one continent, whose extent is immense. It produces very large animals and men of a size twice higher, which are not those of our climates: as their life it is not limited to the same space of time as ours; they live twice longer. They have several large cities, controlled according to uses which are conforming for them; their laws form a perfect contrast with ours.

Between these cities, there two of extraordinary extent, and which don't resemble each other at all. One is called Machimos (the Warlike one), and the other Eusebia (the Pious one). The inhabitants of Eusebia spend their days in peace and abundance: the ground lavishes its fruits to them, without them needing ox nor plough; it would be superfluous to plow and sow. After a life which was constantly prone to diseases, they die merrily and laughing. With the remainder, their life is so pure, that often the gods do not scorn to visit them. To the inhabitants of Machimos, they are very quarrelsome: always armed, always in war, they unceasingly work to extend their limits. This is how their city managed to order several nations; one does not count there less than two million citizens. The examples of people who died of disease are very rare there. All die in the war, not by iron (iron cannot do anything to them), but struck by stone blows or blows of stick. They have such a great quantity of gold and money, that they make of them less case than we do make of iron. Formerly, continued Silene, they wanted to penetrate in our islands; and after having crossed the Ocean with ten million men, they arrived to the Hyperborean ones: but these people appeared in their eyes so cheap and so despicable, that having learned that they were nevertheless the happiest nation of our climates, they scorned to pass by.'

What Silene added is much more astonishing still: 'In this country, he says, the men that one distinguishes by the name of Meropes, are Masters of several large cities: on the borders of the territory which they live in is a place called Anoste (without return), which resembles a pit, and is neither enlightened, nor dark; the air which forms its atmosphere, is mixed with an obscure red. Two rivers run in the surroundings; the river Pleasure, and the river Sorrow, thus they are named: their edges are covered with trees, the height of a large plane tree. Those which grow on the edges of the river Sorrow, produce fruits of such a quality, that whoever tastes them, pours as well tears as it becomes exhausted, and dies finally, after having spent its days in pain. The trees which shade the other river bear fruits of a very different quality: that which eats some, suddenly feels his heart freed of the passions which agitated it; if he loved, he loses the memory of it. He rejuvenates per degrees, while passing by again by all the ages of his life, which he had left behind him: from the old age he returns to the 'age wall', from this one to adolescence, then to puberty; he ends up becoming a child; then he dies." Those who look at Theopompus of Chio like a writer worthy of faith, can believe this account: for me, in this history and several others, I see only one maker of tales."

Maps
The first map is Benincasa map (1482), one of the maps studied by Columbus when he set sail for the Indies. On the left you can see the Piri Reis map, which was made in 1511. In the South you can see Antarctica, way before it was actually discovered. At the map's origin seemed to have been a couple of old maps. ( I will tell you more about Piri Reis and his map and the investigation that has been going on since the discovery of the map a little later, when I have time to translate and research documents.)

Right below, Ptolemy's map, published in Strasbourg in 1513. It was recovered from Constantinople in 1400.







Below you have Athanasius Kircher's map (1669). Kircher was a Jesuit German priest, who lived between 1602-1680. He published "Mundus Subterraneus", a book containing a map of Atlantis according to ancient Egyptian maps. The original map was taken from Egypt by the Romans, probably around 30 B.C.

Some claim that Kircher's island looks like the Antarctica on Piri Reis' map, and like nowadays Antarctica without the ice. The inscriptions on the continents say: "America, Atlantic Ocean, Atlantis, Africa, Spain". In the upper corner: "Site of Atlantis, now beneath the sea, according to the beliefs of the Egyptians and the description of Plato".



Being based on Egyptian maps, in Kircher's map north becomes south. The compass should point up, not down, so then the map would become the way we are used to it now: Africa and Spain, the Strait of Gibraltar on the right, and America, on the left.

According to Hapgood, 15,000 years ago, Antarctica was 2500 miles North of where it is now. Also, Reality TV said that once Antarctica was found where Sahara is now.

Once the map is reversed, you can see the resemblance. However, Kircher's Atlantis looks like an Antarctica without the ice cap.

However, this map is also the reason why Atlantis is being searched in Azores.

The question being asked by the Atlantis believers is if it is more likely to look for Atlantis on an island that moved thousands of kilometers south to reach Antarctica's position now and mostly ignore Plato's story, or to search for it in the Azores, where the tops of the volcanoes are still on land.

or further.....from Alan F Ford....

"My theory has the rare distinction of being able to explain every single aspect of Plato’s story, in contrast to historical interpretations which are always forced to reject the legitimacy of one or more crucial elements in the account. This does not guarantee that the creation myth theory of Atlantis is correct, but it does make it the only satisfactory theory currently available.

Support for my theory comes from Professor Christopher Gill, who is one of the world’s leading experts on Plato and the Atlantis story. In his Foreword to ‘The Atlantis Secret’, Gill writes:

“ Alan Alford’s book has the considerable merit that, while offering a widely accessible account of the Atlantis story, it strongly rejects the popular view that the story has a historical basis. The book takes as its starting point a fact often ignored in non-specialist treatments of Atlantis: that Plato is the original and only primary source for the story, and that we must begin by locating the story within Plato’s philosophical and conceptual world-view... I applaud the lucidity of Alford’s argument and the transparency with which his claims are based on either quoted or fully documented sources... I am very glad to have encountered such a lucid and wide-ranging statement of this [creation myth] hypothesis, and to see it applied so suggestively to the Atlantis story.”

Before I summarise the merits of my new approach to the Atlantis mystery, I will first address the fundamental problems of the historicist theories."

...or another interesting site......

There are many stories, theories and possible locations about the lost continent of Atlantis.

But Atlantis is not the only ante-diluvium world that disappeared in the sea.

In accordance with other stories there was another continent or island that sunk in the ocean in ancient times called Lemuria or Mu.

http://www.earth-history.com/Atlantis/

http://www.bluegrass.kctcs.edu/LCC/HIS/104/s99scott.html

When in 1873, writes Dr. Schliemann, I made the excavation of the ruins of Troy at Hissarlik and discovered in the second city the famous treasures of Priam, I found among that treasure a peculiar bronze vase of great size . . . engraved in Phoenician hieroglyphics with a sentence which reads: 'From the King Chronos of Atlantis' . . . Among a collection of objects from Tiahaunaco, South America, is another vase identically the same as I found among the treasures of Priam.



The significance of the Phoenician hieroglyphics is explained by Professor Nicola Russo, in The Atlantis Quarterly:



The Phoenician alphabet, which is the first of all the European alphabets, is derived from the Atlantean alphabet, which was taught to the Maya of Central America . . . Atlantis was the home of the Aryan or indo-European, and of the semitic, not excluding the Turanian, peoples . . . The male and female divinities of the ancient Greeks, of the Phoenicians, of the Indians, and of the Scandinavians, were kings, queens and heroes of Atlantis, and the acts of heroism which mythology attributes to them are none other than a confused record of historical happenings . . . Atlantis perished in a terrible convulsion of nature, in which the entire island was submerged, with the loss of all the population. Those few who had time to escape from the general disaster on boats and on rafts carried the account of the event to the people who were in the East and West—a tradition that has come down to our days with the legend of the universal Deluge . . . That Atlantis before the time of Plato was known in sacred traditions and legends is proved by the fact that Homer and Hesiod were already acquainted with the legend of Atlas, condemned by Jove to bear the heavens on his shoulders. Herodotus also, in the fourth book of his History, mentions the Atlanteans, and Diodorus, in his Library of History, tells of the Atlanteans, a people more civilized than the people of these countries, and inhabiting a rich land containing many cities.



Lewis Spence, the learned scientist whose researches have thrown important light on the vanished civilizations of Atlantis and Lemuria, points out that Suidas claimed that both Homer and Hesiod were Atlanteans. In the Homeric epics, the blind bard "sings of his country, the country of the gods, Atlantis".



The vases found by Schliemann establishes the fact that there was a King Chronus of Atlantis, and in this connection it is of interest to note that the ancient Greeks preserved traditions of their Golden Age, which they made coincident with the reign of a King Chronos, who may well have been the ruler over the Atlantean forefathers of the Greeks.



A group of survivors of the Atlantean cataclysm settled in northwest Africa, and were known as "Atlanteans" to Greek and Roman writers, who named the Atlas Mountains, in that region, in their honor—Atlas being the Latin singular form of Atlantes.



Scientists of the Carnegie Institution, recently excavating at Chichen Itza, in Yucatan, found, among the imposing ruins of the Pyramid of the Warriors, a Temple dedicated to the Atlanteans.





Azores



The Antilles group of islands in the West Indies, and the Azore and Canary Islands off the northwest coast of Africa, are believed by competent scholars to constitute veritable remnants of Atlantis, and to indicate roughly the extent of her western and eastern boundaries. All these island groups are situated on an ocean ridge which is subject to great earthquakes, and this region, according to Scott-Elliott, "has been the scene of volcanic disturbance on a gigantic scale, and that within a quite measurable period of geologic time."



An article in The Atlantis Quarterly for September, 1932, refers to a recent discovery by the archeologist, Nicolas de Ascanio, on Teneriffe, largest island of the Canaries, of vases and pottery "of exquisite proportions and workmanship. . . M. de Ascanio does not hesitate to assert that the pottery and mortar in question are, 'with the exception of arms, the most ancient products of human industry actually known'. That we are here in the presence of remains of an advanced civilization that existed long before the present race of aboriginals inhabited the islands cannot be doubted. . . The conclusion that the beautiful examples of ceramic art under discussion are veritable relics of Atlantean craftsmanship is, we think, established, and constitutes one of the most remarkable corroborations of Plato's history of Atlantis."



Professor Russo, in an article in the same issue of the magazine above referred to, stresses the importance of the results of a scientific expedition in the ship Meteor around the Azores.



The mythical island, which has been the object of so many studious investigations, according to the testimony of a recent German scientific expedition, must have been located where the Azores now lie, and the peaks of the Azores must be the tops of the mountains of the submerged Atlantis. . . The contour of the upper submarine plane of the Azores sounded by the ship Meteor is indicated to us exactly by the situation and the conformation of Atlantis, in accordance with what is left to us in their writings by Plato and the geographers of antiquity.



This is the reason why the learned Germans maintain the submersion of Atlantis must be calculated as 9,500 years B.C., a period during which the earth penetrated into the moon't ray of action. Under the magnetic influence of this satellite, the waters of the ocean rose to the point of overwhelming Atlantis, so that only the tops of the highest mountains remained. The communications of these scholars come opportunely to throw light upon the darkness of so many mysteries that enwrap the Edenic Island, they serve as a link connecting Egypt and South America, and exhibit the similarities of the characteristics of their civilizations.





Poseidon



Lewis Spence believes that continental Atlantis was destroyed at the end of the Tertiary period (Miocene times), leaving two large islands. One of these, the largest, was the only Atlantis with which the ancient Greek and Roman writers were acquainted. Most of this island was finally submerged by a cataclysm of nature at a date which geological, historical and traditional evidence agrees on as about 9,500 B.C.

Plutarch tells us that Solon, the Athenian law-giver and ancestor of Plato, visited Egypt in 600 B.C., and that:



Souchis, a priest of Sais, and Psenophis, a priest of Heliopolis, told him that 9000 years before, the relations of the Egyptians with the lands of the west had been interrupted because of the mud which had made the sea impassable after the destruction of Atlantis.



Churchward writes,



When Atlantis was first submerged, she only went down deep enough to be awash at low tide so that at low tide mud banks appeared with masses of seaweed which made the northern Atlantic impassable to shipping. This was the real reason why the ancient Greeks never ventured to sail beyond the Pillars of Hercules (Strait of Gibraltar). Later on, Atlantis sank to her present depth, and ships could move freely over her burial place.



Some ancient writers refer to Atlantis as Poseidon. "An Egyptian papyrus states that Poseidon was the first king of Atlantis and that he was followed by a long line of Poseidons, thus forming a Poseidon Dynasty" [Churchward].





Egypt



The Platonic story tells us that "Atlantis was the center of civilization and conquered the whole world." Dr. Schliemann makes the following observations on the connection of Egypt with Atlantis:



In the Museum at St. Petersburg, Russia, there is a papyrus roll, one of the oldest known. It was written in the reign of Pharoah Sent of the Second Dynasty. The papyrus relates that 'Pharoah Sent sent out an expedition to the west in search of traces of the Land of Atlantis from whence, 3350 years before, the ancestors of the Egyptians arrived, carrying with themselves all of the wisdom of their native land. The expedition returned after five years with the report that they had found neither people nor objects which could give them a clue to the vanished land.

Another papyrus in the same Museum by Manetho, the Egyptian priest-historian, gives a reference of a period of 13,900 years as the reign of the Sages of Atlantis. This papyrus places the height of the civilization of Atlantis at the very beginning of Egyptian history, approximately 16,000 years ago.



Spence tells us that the modern Basques who dwell in the Pyrenees,



have not hesitated to announce themselves as the last branch of the Atlantean race—and perhaps not without reason, for it is within the bounds of probability that they are descended from the Cro-Magnon race which would seem to have reached Iberian soil from an oceanic area.





Etymology of 'Atlantic'



Brasseur de Bourbourg, a writer of the last century, traced the etymology of the word Atlantic in the following way:



The words Atlas and Atlantic have no satisfactory etymology in any language known to Europe. They are not Greek, and cannot be referred to any known language of the Old World. But in the Nahu-atlan language (peculiar to the Toltec tribes of ancient Mexico) we find immediately the radical a, atl, which signifies water, war, and the top of the head. From this comes a series of words, such as atlan, or the border of or amid the water; from which we have the adjective Atlantic. . . A city named Atlan existed when the continent was discovered by Columbus, at the entrance of the Gulf of Uraha.



Another city, existing today, with a similar name, is Mazatlan, on the west coast of Mexico. It is an interesting fact, mentioned by some of the early European voyagers to this country, that certain Indian tribes called the whole continent of America by the name of Atlanta. The Nahuatlan language, as its name implies, is similar to and derived from the Atlantean language, for the ancient Maya and Toltec civilizations, so similar in many ways to that of Egypt, were brought to Mexico and Yucatan from Atlantis.





Conclusion



The subject of Atlantis, her magnificent civilization and her dramatic end, has exercised a fascination for modern as well as ancient authors. Besides the scholarly works, published in the last fifty years, by such scientists as Ignatius Donnelly, Schliemann, Spence, Russo and Churchward, many imaginative novels have been written around Atlantis. A Dweller on Two Planets by Phylos, is stimulating reading. A romance, L'Atlantide, by Benoit, has recently been produced in France as a motion picture. The Coming Race by Bulwer-Lytton, very popular with a previous generation, was based on Atlantean traditions. Recently two French writers have compiled a Bibliography of Atlantis, giving over 1700 references. "Societies for Atlantean Studies" now exist in France, Italy and other European lands.



Francis Bacon, "father of experimental philosophy," wrote a stirring book in the 17th century, outlining a great plan for the development of scientific learning which was to remold the institutions of the world on a fairer basis. The founding of the Royal Society of London in 1662 was a direct result of Lord Bacon's inspiring work, which was named "The New Atlantis".


http://www.cycle-of-time.net/lemuria.htm

Ok -
Read THEORY, Thought too and such. Then when you bring in the "gods" - that begins to make me think that Atlantis is very likely along the Legends of Garden of Eden.

The Garden is "on Earth" but not "of Earth" it was a dimensional place where God walked in the cool of the day with Adam.

Then when God kicked Adam and Eve out the "Door" to Eaden was CLOSED - not be found, seen or entered again on earth. Just like Atlantis, except in a different context - it's not seen of again. Period.

Just a thought -


J -

except, Plato clearly describes Atlantis being destroyed...

Crystal Sage..

While translations of ancient words can be accurate for the most part, the sounds and spellings of certain things may be different. So the theory about the sounds of the word Atlantis is different contexts, may have unfounded basis. While there is legends and creation myths about a "white Island", or a continent that was covered by a flood, which have silimilarities to the myth of Plato's Atlantis, this cannot be necessarily assumed that they are all refering to the same thing. A phenomenon around the world is that many civilizations have common creation myths, I think this is due in part to their observations of their surroundings are similar and man's interpretation of the world may at times be common to more than one group, civilization ect..

By the way the Egyptian God-Kings you listed above are all Egyptian Gods, so they were common in many religious texts. This is part of fundamental Ancient Egyptian theology and pertains to their creation myth. I don't also see the connection between the One god according to sanskrit texts that was present on the "white island", and the God-Kings of Egypt. Since Egyptians were polytheistic, don't you find it a bit odd, that if this theory were correct they would have worshipped only One God? This seems to contradict the evidence in that Indian Sanskrit viewed the "Atlanteans" as monotheistic, while the ancient Egyptians viewed them as polytheistic.

So Plato's work may be a work of fiction, or maybe an exaggerated account of a once standing civilization that was lost due to some natural disaster. Who knows? But as for links to Atlantis before Plato's two dialouges, no DIRECT connection can be made, only assumed connections. I will give you that they are similar, however that does not necessarily mean they represented the same thing of "Atlantis."

Also, for claiming that the Trojan kings were in England, which disregards Heinrich Schliemann's evidence of Troy, why quote or even refer to him on anything based on Atlantis? This shows me contradiction: on the one side you don't think Schliemann has found Troy, but on the other you claim one of his finds refers to Atlantis.

As for a civilization occuring around 9500 - 10,000 B.C.E.. This is impossible because the neolithic revolution has just begun to occur, and enough food could not have been provided to support an entire civilization. People depended on themselves to eat and find food as well as farm it, so the support of a large civilization specializing in many different fields would have been impossible, since the people's primary concern was surviving and getting enough food to eat for themselves.

A great flood, however could have existed. After this most recent ice age ended, the polar ice caps surrounding the north and the far south began to melt. This caused the rise in sea levels and the submergance of many islands and landforms. This may be what all those ancient civilizations were refering to in their creation myth; the great flood: the melting of the polar ice caps. So here we may possibly explain why so many civilizations had similar creation myths. Aha!

Also, try posting a link to the article and a SHORT exerpt from it, we can read and click on the link, so you don't have to waste all that space posting the WHOLE article.

Regards,

- Bokonon

[Also, for claiming that the Trojan kings were in England, which disregards Heinrich Schliemann's evidence of Troy, why quote or even refer to him on anything based on Atlantis? This shows me contradiction: on the one side you don't think Schliemann has found Troy, but on the other you claim one of his finds refers to Atlantis. ]

I am not ready to dismiss all givien evidence...or any historian.. just simply because I find another theory that sounds more likely... just because one theory or idea of a scholar doesn't pan out..it doesn't mean you should disregard all their work!!!

Just like if you don't quite agree with someones beliefs on some topic...it doesn't make sense to automatically disagree with everything else they've ever said..or will say..
Most of these historians are following a passion..sometimes...like scientists they may overlook some anomolies that may dampen a theory they are working on..maybe with full intention to follow it up later...

No.. as there is no 100%...clear cut evidence... we have to look at every fact that we can dig up and try to recreate..rebuild these..or any likely pieces together forensically..to create a most likely picture of what was...

Who knows..some vital link may be in some old museum...or attic... or still buried in a cave..or some old tales...

But then too... I think many civilizations have come and gone over millions of years... there have been many anomolies...mysteries..that hint at that.... so the Atlantis myth isn't so strange to me... what I suspect that maybe it could have existed perhaps 100,000++ years ago rather that 10,000 years or so...as we now may believe...

http://evolution-facts.org/Ev-Crunch/c13b.htm

.http://paranormal.about.com/library/weekly/aa011402a.htm

http://www.virtuescience.com/mystery.html

..Can't find the site I was looking for..will get to it later...

But the point is that there are interesting findings of ancient cultures

Many scholars today believe that the pyramids for example could be anything up to 12,000 year old...( something to do with watermarks...etc) and others believe that the pyramids have been rebuilt over earlier far older pyramids... and remember they said it took about 100,000 men over 20 years to build some of them... imagine feeding them???/

http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/pyramid.html

And then there is the age of the Sphinx…as shown in the enclosure around the right side (photo on right), Dr. Robert Schoch, a geologist and professor from Boston University made a discovery that has yet to be disputed. The discovery came in the form of his studying the erosion of the enclosure. As an expert in geology, he saw that the erosion was clearly done by water, not wind. This was a problem for most researchers since the last known time that water was present in Egypt on an ongoing basis was well over 12,000 years ago. This means that the Sphinx is 12,000 years young, and most likely is hundreds of thousands of years old.

http://www.circlethepyramid2007.com/photop.../photo_giza.htm


*****************
http://turkmenistan.usembassy.gov/archive/...vilization.html

Dr. Hiebert made the discovery last summer in ruins at Annau, asite near the border with Iran and only eight miles from theTurkmenistan capital, Ashgabat. He described the findings a weekago at a symposium at Penn and yesterday at a conference onlanguage and archaeology at Harvard.

"You can say we have discovered a new ancient civilization," Dr.Hiebert said. At the same time, the pyramids of Egypt had beenstanding for three centuries, power in the Tigris and Euphratesvalley was shifting from sumer to Babylon and the Chinese had yetto develop writing.


Dr. Victor Sarianidi of the Institute of Archaeology in Moscowfound a distinctive architectural pattern in many of the ruins. Thebuildings at each site appeared to be erected in one burst ofconstruction according to the design of a single architect. Thelargest buildings were like huge apartment complexes, each biggerthan a football field and divided into dozens and dozens of rooms.They were surrounded by multiple mud- brick walls, some as much as10 feet thick. Beyond lay traces of agricultural fields.

In the 1990's, Dr. Hiebert began digging slowly to deeper, andtherefore earlier, levels of occupation. He was rewarded last Junewhile excavating beneath a room in what appeared to be anadministrative building at Annau. That was where he found thecarved symbols on a piece of shiny black jet stone, a type of coal,less than one inch to a side.

Archaeologists believe that it was a stamp seal, commonly used inancient commerce to mark containers by their contents andownership. The site also contained many lumps of clay that wereused to seal vessels or parcels.

http://groups.msn.com/AfricanHeritageinHum...505298915198155


http://turkmenistan.usembassy.gov/museums.html

Excavations starting in 1967 at the site called Akrotiri under the late Prof. Spyridon Marinatos have made Thera the best-known "Minoan" site outside of Crete, the homeland of the culture. The island was not called Thera at the time. Only the southern tip of a large town has been uncovered, yet it has revealed complexes of multi-level buildings, streets and squares, with remains of walls standing as high as 8 meters, all entombed in the solidified ash of the famous eruption of Thera. The site was not a palace-complex such as are found in Crete, but its excellent masonry and fine wall-paintings show that this was no conglomeration of merchants' warehousing either. A loom-workshop suggests organized textile weaving for export.

The houses in Akrotiri are major structures and some of them are three stories high. Streets and squares and walls standing as high as 8 meters indicate that this was a major town. In many houses the stone staircases are still intact, and they contain huge ceramic storage jars (pithoi), mills, and pottery. The most famous archaeological remains found in Akrotiri are wall paintings or frescoes, which have kept their original color very well, as they were preserved under many meters of volcanic ash. The town had a highly developed drainage system and its citizens were clearly very sophisticated and relatively wealthy people, judging from the fine art work.

Pipes with running water and water closets found on Thera are the oldest such utilities discovered. The pipes run in twin systems, indicating that the Therans used both hot and cold water supplies. The hot water's origin was probably geothermic, given the volcano's proximity. The dual pipe system suggesting hot and cold running water, the advanced architecture, and the apparent layout of the Akrotiri find resembles Plato's description of the fictional lost city of Atlantis, further indicating the Minoans as the culture which primarily inspired the Atlantis legend.



Akrotiri developed into one of the Aegean's major Bronze Age ports, with recovered objects that had come not just from Crete but also from Anatolia, Cyprus, Syria and Egypt, from the Dodecanese and the Greek mainland.

LINK-> Santorini

How could Atlantis, be "in" bolivia?

http://www.geocities.com/webatlantis/


There are evidence of many ancient cities in the world... surely there would have been other civilizations at the time of Atlantis for them to interact..trade with..just like today...It wouldn't just have been the Atlanteans...and then the rest of the world full of cave men... or simple basic communities

Yeah, I agree I think Plato's inspiration for Atlantis was Thera and the civilization on Crete, both wiped out after the Super volcano eruption on Santorini, roughly 1600 B.C.. Though the Minoan Civilization was rebuilt, the island of Santorini now had a huge gaping hole in it and the traces of civilization buried in ash. This fits in with the sphere of influence for Plato as well, as it is in the Mediterranean sea. I posted on this earlier and there is a special on the discovery channel about it, and it seems like it fits better than any other theory at the moment, but as I said I think Plato greatly exaggerated his dialogues in reference to "Atlantis" to make it more intriguing.

- Bokonon

atlantis was in the atlantic not inside the pillars that was of a later generation after the liberation of east of the pillars by the greeks so the story goes

"And then there is the age of the Sphinx…as shown in the enclosure around the right side (photo on right), Dr. Robert Schoch, a geologist and professor from Boston University made a discovery that has yet to be disputed. The discovery came in the form of his studying the erosion of the enclosure. As an expert in geology, he saw that the erosion was clearly done by water, not wind. This was a problem for most researchers since the last known time that water was present in Egypt on an ongoing basis was well over 12,000 years ago. This means that the Sphinx is 12,000 years young, and most likely is hundreds of thousands of years old." - Crystal Sage

"But the point is that there are interesting findings of ancient cultures

Many scholars today believe that the pyramids for example could be anything up to 12,000 year old...( something to do with watermarks...etc) and others believe that the pyramids have been rebuilt over earlier far older pyramids... and remember they said it took about 100,000 men over 20 years to build some of them... imagine feeding them???/"

"But then too... I think many civilizations have come and gone over millions of years... there have been many anomolies...mysteries..that hint at that.... so the Atlantis myth isn't so strange to me... what I suspect that maybe it could have existed perhaps 100,000++ years ago rather that 10,000 years or so...as we now may believe..." - Crystal Sage

Ok, first off before 10,000 years ago there was an ice age, so how could people have supported a great civilization when it is too cold for farming, and they hadn't even developed the TECHNIQUE for farming yet?
There is no evidence of ANY civilizations before the Summerians roughly 5,500 B.C.E.. Also the definition of a civilization incorporates more than just a group of people living together. "civ·i·li·za·tion (sv-l-zshn)
Pronunciation Key n.
1. An advanced state of intellectual, cultural, and material development in human society, marked by progress in the arts and sciences, the extensive use of record-keeping, including writing, and the appearance of complex political and social institutions.
2. The type of culture and society developed by a particular nation or region or in a particular epoch: Mayan civilization; the civilization of ancient Rome. "
http://www.dictionary.reference.com/browse/civilization

My point being that an advanced civilization COULD NOT have existed before roughly 8,000 B.C.E. because the neolithic revolution (the domestication of plants and animals) did not occur until 10,000 B.C.E.. THEREFORE, people had to rely on groups and themselves to obtain food and survive and could not focus on building a civilization because their main priority was FOOD. Also during the Ice Age, plant life was scarce and crops would have failed if they had developed the technique for farming before 10,000 B.C.E. (which they didn't). Basic Anthropology.

As for the sphinx there is no way that it could be 12,000 years old, and the building of the great pyramid at Giza was DOCUMENTED by an architect under Khufu. So therefore the oldest pyramids in Egypt were just a little before Khufu and were not before that time. Accounting for watermarks, it occasionally rains in the desert and a torrential rainstorm could have cut into the stone and this could have caused the watermarks, also the Nile one year could have overflowed so much, that it created watermarks on the sphinx and the great pyramids at Giza. Just look at Egyptian History, before the foundations of the Egyptian Civilization; roughly 3,500 B.C.E., there was no civilization there to support construction of these massive buildings. As for feeding the workers that constructed the pyramids, many of these people were seasonal workers, that constructed the pyramids at Giza while the Nile flooded as they were farmers and had a surplus of food to support themselves during this season. Most of the watermark theories have been debunked.

Please, Please, Crystal Sage I beg you, actually read about what REAL archaeologists have found in Egypt, and see that there is no way the pyramids there could have been built by anyone except the Egyptians. There is graffitti in the tops of some of the pyramids, where some workers actually signed their names. Don't believe me, ask Dr. Zahi Hawass, the leading archaeologist on Egyptology at the moment. Please provide some proof to these far-fectched theories.

Regards,

- Bokonon

you can tell by what medium that they use to build there houses ,its not the bedrock that they carve ,its of brick that they build.
that tells me that they are of a later generation than that of atlatean.

I'm saying that Plato's Atlantis was an exaggeration of a civilization that existed a little bit before his time period.

You're assuming the Atlanteans really did exist, but what if they didn't.

well what i get from plato's story is that this atlatean civ.orig was in the atlantic thus the name of the ocean and what i'm saying given that cape breton island is in the heart of the atlantic prov of can and in the atlantic ocean and the uniek way that the island was created and is the only island that can be placed in that location at one time in its past read the whole thread.

there are to many tales of a one civ out there to say it didn't ,yes plato got it from egypt but even there gods were cast out of heaven,

that may be so in what you think, but atlantis is about that first civ that was and will allways be

when the island subsided the last time you had the gods of greek and gods of egypt and gods of summairan basicaly these men were the most inlighten at the time and were able to escape via baot and come ashore were they may or it was a more gradual migration to far city state or because of war what haveyou ,the center from what they came from is that island

Having just returned from a trip to India, must admit that the most fascinating aspect of the visit was a great "Buddhist" meditation technique called VIPASSANA which is taught free of charge and a trip to Mahabalipuram (near Chennai city in the southern part).
There was a temple (archeologists are still working on that) which rose (due to the 2004 tsunami effect) from near the shore and apparently it had been buried by a previous tsunami 1300 years ago.

Long and short of my rantings is that Atlantis is DEFINITELY a possibility and Edgar Cayce's peek into the future also has to be commended with regards to Bimini island.

"Please, Please, Crystal Sage I beg you, actually read about what REAL archaeologists have found in Egypt, and see that there is no way the pyramids there could have been built by anyone except the Egyptians. There is graffitti in the tops of some of the pyramids, where some workers actually signed their names. Don't believe me, ask Dr. Zahi Hawass, the leading archaeologist on Egyptology at the moment. Please provide some proof to these far-fectched theories. "

I remember reading something years ago that sounded quite convincing... ..It may take me a while to remember where I read it....


here's something interesting though

http://www.crystalinks.com/clothingold.html

http://www.anthro.uiuc.edu/faculty/soffer/

http://www.sacred-texts.com/piri/index.htm

http://jcolavito.tripod.com/lostcivilizations/id10.html

Lol...and the redhaired mummies come to the fore again... see various sites here..eg Basques...and the legends of the 'tall white people'..'cloud people'..at Easter Island ...Peru..Africa...etc

http://community.novacaster.com/showarticl...t=1;id=5355;n=0

There is one tale. And that tale isn't even complete.

I think it was the mayans who talked about golden haired white men coming out of the sea...i thinks.

yea that door to that secret tomb will be reveilled?

theres gonna be an open door in heaven soon so the truth will be knowen