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Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums > Unexplained Mysteries > Extraterrestrial Life & The UFO Phenomenon
DEBUNKER
These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:


Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes


Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif
Bogeyman
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif



I like "The Turk" ..how cool is that yes.gif ?
I note that it says ...."most crop circles"..no argument there.
Roj47
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 02:27 PM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.


Firstly I want to mention I do not believe in aliens visiting.

I believe in UFOs, and I believe they can be rationally identified.

I do suggest that a lot of people here want to believe, rather than do believe.

I believe Middlesbrough FC are going to finish top 4 this season in the Premier league.
Every one of the fans supporting one of the 20 teams will believe this, and 4 of us are going to be proven right whereas the others will re-believe next season.

I want to believe there are aliens....I can't, but I do not pick up half hearted hoaxes and fight the cause.

I hope I am proven wrong......, but I doubt I will sad.gif
AstroPro
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 09:27 AM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif


And, your point is.....? Are you trying to say the UFO phenomenon isn't worth looking into because there have been a few obvious hoaxes? Just one case needs to be real and that changes everything! There are many credible cases that have an extremely low probability of haox, misindentification, hallucination etc. and a very high probability of being extraterrestrial in origin. Even many scientists nowadays, based on available scientific data regarding the subject matter, say its not just possible that extraterrestrials are now visiting earth, but probable. Why is it that debunkers focus only on the cases they can readily identify?
3y3l3ss
Care to post those cases? Would be nice to see them.

As far as hoaxes and people beleiveing, who cares? If they want to beleive, let them beleive...
WaltFreakinWhitman
Here is a link to a hoax that embarrased the scientific community. proving anyone even our oh so smart scientists can be fooled by hoaxers
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3202_hoax.html
Sweetpumper
Milli Vanilli didn't sing their own songs?!!! WTF!!!?
hazzard
QUOTE(Roj47 @ Jul 25 2006, 01:43 PM) [snapback]1282499[/snapback]


I want to believe there are aliens....I can't, but I do not pick up half hearted hoaxes and fight the cause.

I hope I am proven wrong......, but I doubt I will sad.gif


That is exactly how I see it, could it be that most of these "believers" suffer from ignorance,no seriously, I really whant to know how people can buy some of this nonsense.

Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media. Blurry photos, quotes taken out of context and sketchy eyewitness accounts have inspired a slew of elaborate theories.

-If they cant understand the pictures from Mars,Cydonia. = Aliens on mars.

-If they don't understand space flight = Faked moon landing.

-If they cant identify an aerial phenomenon = Alien spaceships on Earth (or UFOs as they like to call them.)

The hoax, if true, is fooling a vast cadre of experts world-wide, not just in the evil US government, WORLD WIDE, yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few "believers" on some fringe web site!? How this can make sense to an adult person is beyond me.

Could it be that most of these hoax stories are believed to be true by people who have never accomplished anything (that they feel is important) in their lives, and want to comfort themselves by believing that they now,finally,has one up on the government, scientists, NASA, military,SETI or whatever.

Like our friend Lilly once said.

QUOTE
Just a suggestion, before you go looking "outside the box", perhaps you might want to take a look "inside the box"? One can not substitute imagination for education...you really need both.




AstroPro
QUOTE
Care to post those cases? Would be nice to see them.


Sure thing,

Here are the top 3 abduction cases of all time:

#3: Allagash Abduction


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The Allagash Waterway is a series of lakes and canals in the breathtaking mountains of Maine. This lovely area would be the site of one of the most discussed and best documented alien abduction cases on record. A dramatized version was featured on the "Unsolved Mysteries" television show. The Allagash incident would involve multiple witnesses, four to be exact, twin brothers Jack and Jim Weiner, along with their friends Chuck Rak and Charlie Foltz. The four men had met while studying at the Massachusetts College of Art, and they were all beginning their respective careers. The four artists would turn into sportsmen for what they thought would be an enjoyable, relaxing trip. Their trip to Allagash would be memorable, but not for the reasons they had hoped for.

It would be in August 1976, that the four men began their vacation, and part way through their canoeing, they reached Eagle Lake, padding to it's mouth to do some fishing. Not having any luck, and running low on food, they decided to try some night fishing. Before leaving the bank, they built an extremely large campfire to be a landmark light from the water. After a time on the lake, the four suddenly saw a light.. a light that seemed much brighter than a star. The glowing orb was hovering over the trees a couple of hundred yards away. The object changed colors as it moved back and forth; red, then green, then a whitish yellow. The massive object was estimated to be about 80 feet in diameter. The object slowly moved across the tops of the trees along the bank, and as it came closer to the four fishermen, Charlie Foltz signaled an SOS with his flashlight. Immediately, the object silently moved toward the canoe.

A guarded curiosity now turned into a frantic dash for the bank. As they paddled as fast as they could, a hollow light came from the object, engulfing the men and their canoe. The next thing the men knew, they were standing on the bank again. Charlie pointed his flashlight toward the object again, but this time it rose up and out of their view, as it showed it's beam once more before disappearing into the Allagash sky. Wondering what had transpired, the men were shocked to see their once glowing fire to be nothing but smoldering ashes. This should have taken several hours, and the four friends wondered, "What happened to the last couple of hours?"

Very little was said as the four men packed up their gear and went back to the everyday grinds of their respective careers. In time the night of the UFO would begin to have a profound effect on their lives. Jack Weiner was the first to start having nightmares. In these dreams, he saw beings with long necks, and large heads. He saw the beings examining his arm, while Jim, Chuck, and Charlie sat on a nearby bench, not able to intervene. The beings had large metallic glowing eyes with no lids, and their hands were insect-like, with four fingers. The other three men were experiencing very similar dreams, with short, mental clips of that awful night on the lake. In 1988, out of curiosity, Jim Weiner attended a UFO conference hosted by Raymond Fowler. Weiner met Fowler afterwards, and related his strange encounter. The investigator was excited about Jim's story, especially the fact that it was a multiple witness occurrence. Fowler suggested to Jim that he and the others undergo regressive hypnosis. After the sessions, it was revealed that all four of the men had been abducted, and subjected to humiliating physical examinations, including the taking of skin and fluid samples.

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The men's description of the aliens was consistent, and being artists, they were able to make detailed sketches of the entities, the craft, and the examining instruments. Chuck Rak added that the aliens' test area was similar to a vet's office, with a silvery table. He also related a strange fact: he had much difficulty in focusing on the aliens. When he tried, he could not put an exact image to them. He compared it to trying to tune in a fuzzy radio station. After the psychiatric examinations, all four of the men were deemed to be mentally stable, and they all passed lie-detector tests. All of the information gleaned from the detailed hypnotic sessions, and investigative reports provide strong evidence that something "not of this world" was encountered by these four men on the Allagash Waterway in 1976. This case is still considered unexplainable by conventional scientific means.

Many debunkers like to down play abduction case. For example Susan Clancy recently released a book called Abducted: How people Come to Believe They Were Kidnapped by Aliens produced by Harvard University Press 2005 where she claims to have read every book and seen every documentary that has to do with extraterrestrials and the UFO phenomena yet blatany lies about the events to attempt to convince her largely skeptic following, who have little to know background knowledge regarding the subject matter, that there is nothing to these abductions.

Here is an example of her ignorance. This is part of a review of her book by Stanton Friedman in which he breaks down her false claims.

Here is a typical example of her gross inaccuracy. Speaking of a meeting with a number of abductees she says, “Highlight of Saturday evening was a conversation with two brothers from Manchester, New Hampshire. These men were relatively well known abductees who had written a book about their experiences. One night in the late 1960s they had been canoeing on a lake in Maine and had seen some weird lights across the water. A few years later one had fallen down an elevator shaft at work; he’d suffered brain damage, developed epilepsy and became severely depressed.” The simple fact of the matter is that there were four people involved, not two; the event took place in August, 1976, not in the 1960s. The book The Allagash Abductions was written by an experienced investigator, engineer Raymond Fowler, not by the brothers. It was based on data obtained independently from each of the four. The book is, of course, not referenced though she has 14 pages of noted references including 146 items. Her own “research” papers were each cited several times.

#2: Travis Walton Abduction


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In November 1975, a group of six tree-trimmers were driving home from work in a truck in the Sitgreave-Apache National Forest in Arizona, USA. The driver stopped the truck when he noticed that a flying saucer was hovering about fifteen feet above some nearby trees. Travis Walton approached the craft on foot, despite the objections of his workmates. He was then knocked to the ground by a blue and white light. When the men in the truck saw this, they were terrified and sped off down the road leaving him for dead. Once they had calmed down, they returned to that spot and couldn't find any sign of Travis or the flying saucer. Five days later, Travis was returned to earth wondering what had happened to him for the past few days.

The following report on the final polygraph examination of Travis Walton was actually sponsored by a skeptic, Jerry Black. The test was performed with the latest state of the art equipment, by Cy Gilson, the most highly respected polygraph expert.

On February 4, 1993, a polygraph examination was administered to Mr. Travis Walton. The purpose of this examination was to determine whether or not Mr. Walton was being truthful in his statement about seeing a UFO and being abducted by the UFO in addition to other facts surrounding the abduction.

During the pretest interview, Mr. Walton said he had worked for Mike Rogers intermittently for about six years on a seasonal basis. He never socialized with any of the crew.

On November 5, 1975, they had worked a little later than usual trying to meet the contract commitment. By the time they were driving back to town, the sun had gone down but there was some light, like twilight.

As they were driving, he could see a glimmer of light in the trees ahead. At first he thought it may be a downed airplane. The light was very unusual. It was like nothing they had seen before. As they neared a clearing he saw the object he called a UFO.

As the truck came to a stop, Mr. Walton got out. Believing it may take off, he walked towards the UFO but slowed his pace before reaching it. He described it as being round and hovering about 20 feet above the ground. He didn't go underneath it but stood there looking up at it. He said the UFO started to wobble slightly and make a noise. Mr. Walton said the noise was like a low rumble that developed into a higher pitch that seemed to increase in frequency. At this point he became afraid and decided to go back to the truck. He recalls being hit with an electrifying type of shock that stunned him, leaving him unconscious.

He recalls he slowly regained consciousness and found himself in a small room that was damp or humid. He had pain throughout his body but mostly in his chest and head. He then saw three creatures he described as being about four feet tall with large, dark eyes. He was lying on some type of table. As these creatures approached him he got off the table. There was some type of shelf near the wall where he found a straight pipe­like object lying on it. He describes it as being round like a piece of a pipe but lightweight. He cannot recall if it was solid or hollow. He picked it up and used it to keep the creatures at bay.

user posted image


The creatures left the room by an open doorway, turning right.

Mr. Walton walked to that doorway, looked down a hall and he went left. He walked into another room, trying to find an exit. He didn't know if he was in a spaceship or a building. A human­like creature came into the room, took him by the arm, leading him to another very large room where several more human­like creatures were. By this time most of the pain was gone. He was forced down on a table and had a mask, similar to an oxygen mask, put on his face.

user posted image


He doesn't remember anything else until he awoke next to the road, just outside Heber. As he regained consciousness, he looked up, seeing the UFO or one similar to the original one, hovering overhead. As he looked up at it, the UFO sped off into the sky.

user posted image


Mr. Walton said his story is true. He said accusations made about him are lies. He had not been on any drugs of any kind. He was not hiding out somewhere on the Gibson ranch. He urinated in a jar and the sample was given to Dr. Kandell later that same day. Mr. Walton denies he conspired with Mr. Rogers to perpetrate a hoax to help him get out of the Turkey Springs contract with the Forestry Service.

Two series of questions were asked to cover all the areas we believe were important.

The relevant questions asked and the answers given are as follows:

Series #1:

Question #R1:

On November 5, 1975, in the forest area called Turkey Springs, did you see a large glowing object hovering in the air?

Answer: YES

Question #R2:

While you were standing near that UFO­like object, did you believe you were struck by an energy source emitted from that large object?

Answer: YES

Question #R3:

After regaining consciousness in a small, humid room, did you see nonhuman creatures with large dark eyes?

Answer: YES

Question #R4:

Did you conspire with your brother Duane or anyone else or act alone to stage a hoax about your UFO abduction?

Answer: NO

Series #2:

Question #R1:

Between November 1 and 11, 1975, did you use any drugs, either legal or illegal?

Answer: NO

Question #R2:

Between November 5 and 10, 1975, were you hiding anywhere on the Gibson ranch?

Answer: NO

Question #R3:

Was the urine sample given to Dr. Kandell on November 11, 1975, your first voided specimen following your UFO experience?

Answer: YES

Question #R4:

Was this UFO incident a conspiracy to help Mike Rogers get out of his Turkey Springs contract?

Answer: NO

Mr. Walton's physiological responses were monitored during the presentation of these questions by means of a Scientific Assessment Technology's Computer, Model CAPS 700. The following responses were recorded on this instrument's strip chart: relative blood pressure; skin conductance; thoracic and abdominal respiration. Data from three presentations of these questions were respiration. Data obtained for each series, and were subject to numerical scoring and computer­ based analysis.

The numerical score of Series #1 was +34. The numerical score of Series #2 was +26. In the system of numerical scoring developed and validated at the University of Utah, total numerical scoring of +6 or more is considered indications of truthfulness.

The computer­based analysis returned a posterior probability of truthfulness of .964 in the first series, and a .961 in the second series. These indicating that charts like these produced in each series, by Mr. Walton, are produced by truthful examinees 96% of the time.

Based on the numerical score of the polygraph charts and the computer based analysis, it is the opinion of this examiner that Mr. Walton was being truthful when he answered these relevant questions.

These examinations clear the air with a thoroughness, an utter finality, which can't be refuted. Cy Gilson used a widely practiced, extremely accurate, state­of­the­art method developed and perfected at the University of Utah. This involves a computerized monitoring and analysis of the tracings along with a point­scoring system of the charts applied by the examiner.

In summary: The computer put all three of the witnesses (that took the test) near the top of the range designated as conclusively truthful (almost no one ever achieves the theoretical maximum of 1.00), with Travis at .964 and .961, Mike at .990, and Allen at .993. On the numerical score Travis was first with +34 and +26 points, Mike had +31 points and Allen had +22 points.

Therefore, the probability of this being a hoax or simple misidentification of some kind is tremendously low. Considering these overwhelming odds, what other explanation is there?

#3: The Hill Abduction


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This was the abduction that started them all. The first widely publicized alien abduction that was considered credible. While driving back to New Hampshire from Canada the couple encountered a UFO that seemed to follow their car. It eventually got very close after which Barney stopped the car and got out to take a closer look. He became frightened and ran back into the car and the couple proceeded to drive straight home. After resuming their journey home, they were not able to see the strange craft anymore. Oddly though, they heard a beeping sound. They then heard the beeping a second time, noticing that they were suddenly thirty-five miles farther down the road than a minute or two ago. They were now in Ashla. The mood in the car was quiet as they proceeded home, and went to bed. They both slept until the next afternoon. Time went by before Betty and Barney Hill decided to undergo hypno therapy to recall what happened in the missing time. While in a hypnotic trance Betty described the EBE's tugging on her teeth at one point. Why would they be doing this? As it turns out, Barney Hill had dentures. The extraterrestrials could not figure out why his teeth could come out and Betty's couldn't. Who would make up something like that?

The most credible piece of evidence from this case in my opinion has to be the Star Map that Betty drew while in the hypnotic trance state.

Original:
user posted image

Cleaned Up Version:
user posted image

The connecting lines apparently indicate heavy trade routes, light trade routes, and occasional excursions. Unfortunately, at the time it was less than credible evidence. They figured they would probably never know what it means. There are a few hundred billion stars in our galaxy and this map could be argued to fit any set of stars from a particular angle, or so they thought. Marjorie Fish, an astronomer, decided to create a 3-D model of our entire local neighborhood to see if this map matched up with any set of stars. When she completed it she found that it didn't match up with anything. Then a new catalog of the best distance data ever published came out. Marjorie revised her star map to match the new distance data. What she found was astonishing. The star map matched up perfectly with a particular group of stars, a binary star system called zeta 1 and zeta 2 reticuli. Another very interesting fact is that the binary stars, zeta 1 and zeta 2 reticuli, just so happen to be the closest pair of sun like stars in our entire local neighborhood. Not only that, but the stars are not even visible in the northern hemisphere! You have to go below the equator to view them in the night sky and remember this encounter happened in New Hampshire! Another interesting thing is, all the pattern stars in the map are the right kind for planets and life! Only 46 out of 1,000 qualify and yet every star in the pattern qualifies. All the right kind and only the right kind, the chances of that being a coincidence are 1 in 10,000. It is NOT a coincidence! It also turns out that all the pattern stars are in a plane, like slices of pepperoni on a very thin slice of pepperoni pizza, NOT like raisins in a big fat loaf of raisin bread. It is very helpful when you are travelling to stay within the plane because it takes up less energy. What other explanation is there? After you review all the available information there isn't any other explanation that comes close to explaining this encounter and for that reason I believe that the Betty and Barney Hill encounter was very real.

PROOF That the Map is not a Hoax:

1. No earth astronomer in 1961-1964 would have known the triangle background stars existed as a cluster in its present position because:

A. The parallax (distance measurement) of 86.1 had not been taken then. Its position was printed in 1969.

B. The distance of Gliese 97 was thought of as 55.2 light years which would put it beyond Gliese 111 before the
1969 catalog.

C. The distance of Gliese 95 was thought of as 37.5 light years (pi.087 ±11) or 35.8 light years (pi..091) before the 1969 catalog. This would move it above rather than below the line of Gliese 111.

Only correlation of several different types of parallax measurement (spectral, photometric, and trigonometric) result in the present more accurate parallaxes. Earlier catalogs usually used just one type of measurement.

The triangle would be remembered as it is very near the surface of the map and is quite prominent.

2. The earlier parallax for Gliese 86 would put it at a much poorer angle.

3. Variable main sequence single stars were avoided. They would be unlikely for life because it requires even heat over a long period of time to develop. The probable main sequence variable stars are marked “var?” in the Catalog of Bright Stars by Dorrit Hoffleit which was published in 1964. Betty’s experience was in 1961. The map was drawn early in 1964. It is very unlikely that she could have had access to the catalog even if she knew how to interpret it, and if it was released before she drew the map. (It took me two years to see the catalogs even though I knew what I needed generally. They are not found in normal university libraries, much less local ones, and book stores do not carry them. Some cannot even be purchased from the author.)

The fact that these main sequence single F5-G-K1 stars are probable variables was not caught by astronomers who specialize in stars that might have planets with life, even in recent books. Delta and Gamma Pavonis, Sigma Draconis, Beta Hydrus etc. are some of the stars listed as good for life, but which are really probable variables. This shows the map maker knew variables should be avoided and which stars were variable.

4. Many exobiology books list doubles as suitable for planets with life. Kuiper s work showing that planets are not likely to develop in a multiple system was published in 1955, but it is apparently not well known. Even if multiple stars can have planets, circular orbits in the ecosphere would be difficult to maintain. Normal doubles were avoided in the lined portion of Psyche.

Epsilon Eridani was announced to be a multiple system in March 1973 by Dr. Peter van de Kamp. Its companion is halfway between a planet and a star in mass. It was avoided in Psyche, although it is near Tau Ceti and the sun. Before 1973 exobiologists considered Epsilon Eridani one of the best prospects for life, and it was part of the Ozma study. The mapmaker knew it should be avoided long before we did.

PROOF that the Similarity Between Betty’s Map and Reality is not Coincidental:

1. The top and bottom surface of the depth of Psyche are squares. The height of the map is 2/3 the size of the square. It is highly improbable that this could be coincidental.

2. The lines represent a logical travel pattern to investigate all the best stars for life from Zeta Reticuli, best star for life to the next best (closest) star for life to the next closest, etc.

3. The double dotted line to Tau Ceti represents two expeditions. Two expeditions were likely, the first to 82 Eridani to Tau Ceti to Earth, since the sun is closer to Tau Ceti than 107 Piscium is to Tau Ceti. The dotted (expedition) line to the sun was dropped when the solid line directly from Zeta Reticuli was put in, just as all the dotted lines were dropped when solid lines were put in to 82 Eridani, Alpha Mensae and Gliese 86. The second expedition went from 82 Eridani to Tau Ceti, then in the opposite direction from Earth to 107 Piscium.

4. Only the best stars for life are used. These are non-variable main sequence stars, F6-G-K1, absolute magnitude 3.7 to 5.9. To show the proportions of these stars to all stars, the stars within the volume of a sphere with a radius of 10 parsecs (32.59 light years) was used. There are twelve such stars compared with 201 known systems and 259 known components in this volume. This gives a ratio of 1/17 and 1/21 respectively. I spent over six months checking all possible combinations using all kinds of main sequence stars F2 and dimmer, including doubles, in the 10 parsec model. The only one that resembled Betty’s map was that part of Psyche within the model. Since the-best-stars-for-life ratio is so small compared to stars in general, it is hardly coincidental that the only pattern like Betty’s should be made up solely of these stars.

5. All the stars suitable for life in the Psyche volume are included in Betty’s drawing.

http://ufocasebook.com/Hill.html (The Hill Encounter)
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/hillmap.htm (The Hill Map, Majorie Fish)
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman7-L3.wav (Stanton Friedman Audio Explanation)

Also again referring to Susan Clancy's book and her many gross inaccuracies here is another bit from Stanton Friedman's review critiqueing her claims.

Clancy not only seems to consider herself a truly knowledgeable abductionist, but also an expert on UFOs in general. “So far as we know there is no evidence that aliens exist.” “You can’t disprove alien abductions. All you can do is argue that they’re improbable.” Obviously she didn’t intend this next comment to be referring to herself: “The Confirmatory bias — the tendency to seek or interpret evidence favorable to existing belief or reinterpret unfavorable evidence is ubiquitous, even among scientists.” Amen, and she provides many examples of her own tendency. “We don’t accept the alien abduction explanation because there is no external evidence to support it.” Isn’t it amazing that she never discusses physical trace cases, at least 16% of which involve reports of strange beings? She doesn’t mention the many cases in which abductees separately indicate that missing time was confirmed. She never mentions Marjorie Fish’s star map work connected with the Betty and Barney Hill case, though she does mention the case.

As might be expected, her comments are seriously in error. She says “Betty had spotted a bright star that seemed to be pursuing them. Nervous, they had turned off the main highway onto narrow mountain roads arriving home two hours later than expected.” And she claims to have read The Interrupted Journey ??? Sounds to me like she read a Parade Magazine piece, by Carl Sagan, which makes the same false claims. They had both observed the large object at close range with binoculars, for goodness sake. There was a double row of windows through which Barney recalled seeing strange beings.. without hypnosis. Starlike??? She says, “Betty was a long time believer. Betty was a fan of science fiction movies featuring aliens (she had seen Invaders from Mars ) and had already read Donald Keyhoe’s Flying Saucers Are Real .

This is more unadulterated hogwash. Betty read the book AFTER the experience, had not been a sci-fi fan, or seen the movie. Clancy says Betty and Barney were “advised to undergo hypnosis, in order to determine whether, as she firmly suspected, they had been abducted.” Their purpose was to see if the Doctor could rid Barney of his ulcers and find out what happened during the missing time. Clancy then says Barney had seen “The Bellero Shield,” an episode of the science fiction TV series The Outer Limits and that his drawing of an alien is based on what he saw. Simon had asked him about sci-fi movies. He and Betty were too busy to watch such stuff. It would be interesting to know just where Clancy’s misinformation comes from besides her fertile imagination. She certainly hadn’t read the book carefully or Terence Dickinson’s The Zeta Reticuli Incident or watched the UFO Incident on NBC or spoken with Betty or Barney or Dr. Simon or John Fuller or even Betty’s niece, Kathy Marden, very familiar with the case and possessor of Betty’s files. John Fuller’s files are at Boston University not far from Harvard. Clancy obviously hadn’t been there either. I have done all these things. An artist I know watched “The Bellero Shield”  and indicated that the alien’s facial features did not match drawings made in response to Barney’s description and was about 6 feet tall or much taller than the Hill aliens.

Demonstrating both her bias and ignorance, she claims, “Betty and Barney Hill — the mom and pop of abductees — became famous in abduction history in the 1960s because, in the words of Seth Shostak, an astronomer associated with the SETI Institute, “They were more or less Mr. And Mrs. Front Porch.” An interracial couple in New England in 1961 were hardly Mr. And Mrs. Front Porch, whatever that is supposed to mean. Surely no reasonable person could consider Seth Shostak an expert on any aspect of ufology, no less abductions.

Other UFO Related Cases:

There have also been THOUSANDS of physical trace cases from all over the world. One of the more famous accounts is the Betty Cash encounter. Betty Cash after encountering a UFO hovering a few feet above the middle of the road she developed a serious case of radiation poisoning and actually sued the government suspecting their involvement. She later died as a result of this encounter on the 18th anniversary of the encounter.
Here is a link to the story for further clarification: http://www.ufocasebook.com/Pineywoods.html

This isn’t the first time such an event has taken place!

Here are just a couple of the thousands of physical trace cases available for research:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/missouricrash.html
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/video/huffman-mann_hi.ram (video excerpt from a documentary discussing the above event briefly.)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Hill.html
http://www.nicap.dabsol.co.uk/hillmap.htm (further verification of above account)
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman7-L3.wav (The Betty Hill Star Map is an important development that remains unexplained according the Friedman)
http://ufocasebook.com/Rendlesham.html (One of the most thoroughly researched and credible physical trace cases. Many pages including official government documents. Larry Warren of the disclosure project was involved.)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/ubatuba.html (UFO Fragments)
http://www.temporaldoorway.com/ufo/physica...esium/index.htm (Another source of the above event)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Zamora.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/scoutmaster.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/Shagharbor.html
http://www.project1947.com/bctrace1.htm
http://www.ufocasebook.com/physicaltracefiles.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/physicaltracecases.htm
http://www.scientificexploration.org/jse/a...e_phys/toc.html
http://www.nidsci.org/pdf/rullan.pdf (UFO odor cases)

"If UFOs are real, shouldn't they produce some real physical effects?" The answer is that they do. There are rather well-authenticated cases spanning a wide variety of "physical effects."
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc616.htm

http://www.konsulting.com/friedman6-L3.wav (Science says you can't get there from here, but Friedman says that's just not true. Friedman also goes on to explain the significance of physical trace cases.)

Sightings from pilots are further proof of the existence of UFO’s. In fact, encounters with UFO’s by experienced military pilots and commercial airline pilots are far more common than you would think. The only reason you don’t hear about it is because of the government controlled corrupt media and the fact that very few pilots ever even end up reporting their sightings because of fear of ridicule and potential threat of losing their job or sometimes worse. These are not all simple lights in the sky they are seeing, many of these sightings are solid structured craft that cannot be accounted for. Many sightings occurred during WWII. These numerous accounts were nicknamed “foo fighters” which are very famous now but most of the better documented cases are still locked up in government vaults unfortunately. Also, coincidentally after dropping the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and Nagasaki UFO activity increased exponentially according to many sources including June Crain. Obviously they are quite concerned about our hostility as I said before.

Here are a few sources on the topic of pilot accounts:
http://www.ufocasebook.com/foofighters2.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/newsite/files/W...ilotCatalog.pdf (This is a case file of 1300 Aviation related UAP observations dating from 1916 to the present. This is a fascinating and useful tool to develop an understanding of the threads of commonalties underlying many UAP cases.)
http://www.nicap.org/ufoe/section_5.htm
http://www.ufocasebook.com/navy1952ufoincident.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/1952b29galveston.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/felixmoncla.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/1954ufomothership.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/navy1956.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/kennetharnold.html
http://www.konsulting.com/K-Arnold######Layer-3.WAV (Kenneth Arnold original audio interview)
http://www.ufocasebook.com/jal1628.html (Japanese account)
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc466.htm (Chinese account)

Speaking of China they take this subject very seriously! Check out some of these articles:
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/articl...e.html?id=10685
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc1203.htm (half of the entire population of China believes in UFO’s!)
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/cover010206.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc431.htm
http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf...aliens/?related
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc450.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/China.htm

Disinformation:
http://www.rense.com/general42/coverup.htm
http://www.wanttoknow.info/emailmedia
http://www.themissingtimes.com/
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfjennings1.html
http://www.disclosureproject.org/abcnewsdefrauding.htm
http://www.unknowncountry.com/journal/?id=177

There is also of course the disclosure project: http://disclosure.netro.ca/npcc.wmv

How can anyone make such a bold and biased claim such as stating that all 400+ former government employees coming forward with their direct personal involvement with the UFO phenomena and the extraterrestrial occupants within these craft, are all simply lying through their teeth? Especially considering most making the claim have no inside knowledge disproving the validity of their statements. Many of these disclosure project members even have all their credentials to confirm their background unequivocally.

And before making any bold claims as to say that science doesn't take this subject seriously, maybe you should save yourself the embarrassment and take a look at the truth for yourself. Here is an academic UFO study with various references of scholarly sources located on the last few pages for verification: http://www.ufoskeptic.org/JBIS.pdf

Michio Kaku:
One of the most respected Theoretical Physicists since Einstein speaking on the behalf of UFO's and ET Civilizations.

http://www.exn.ca/video/?video=exn20050408-et.asx
http://www.mkaku.org/articles/physics_of_alien_civs.shtml
http://www.mkaku.org/articles/physics_of_space_travel.shtml

David Sereda's Work:

http://ufonasa.terra-ent.com/
http://ufonasa.terra-ent.com/2_Sereda.htm
http://ufonasa.terra-ent.com/2_galaxyClock.htm
http://ufonasa.terra-ent.com/2_tether.htm
http://www.intalek.com/AV/David-Sereda-1.wma (audio interview)
http://www.intalek.com/AV/David-Sereda-2.wma (audio interview)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...&q=nasa+ufo (EVIDENCE: The Case for Nasa UFOs)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=85...or+nasa+ufo%27s (Part II)

Evidence in ancient artwork:

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

Astronauts and UFO's:

http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case396.htm
http://fatemag.com/2005_08art2.html
http://www.rense.com/general53/alain.htm (I also have a magazine cut out article verifying this account from the national examiner.)
http://ufocasebook.com/Astronaut.html
http://www.ufocasebook.com/nasafacts.html
http://ufocasebook.com/moon.html
http://www.anomalous-images.com/astroufo.html
http://www.ufoevidence.org/AstronautSightings.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/astronauts.htm
http://www.ufoevidence.org/documents/doc504.htm
http://ufologie.net/htm/astronauts.htm
and that's just a few of the many

Stanton Friedman:

http://www.stantonfriedman.com
http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfchlng.html
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman1-L3.wav Stanton Friedman on "Where he is coming from"
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman2-L3.wav Referring to a few slides in his presentation, Friedman outlines a few "hopeful" signs from the Government
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman3-L3.wav It's amazing how few documentaries actually discuss the available "documents" from the Government
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman4-L3.wav A few good sources of information for those who really want to know what has been researched and documented.
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman5-L3.wav The Gallup Poll should provide some protection against retaliation if a scientist's interest in the subject draws fire from others.
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman6-L3.wav Science says you can't get there from here, but Friedman says that just not true
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman7-L3.wav The Betty Hill Star Map is an important development that remains unexplained according the Friedman
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman8-L3.wav Crashed saucers, including an incident in Roswell in 1947
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman9-L3.wav Friedman discusses a few facts surrounding the MJ-12 documents
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman10-L3.wav Friedman describes some of the important cases and says we are dealing with a Cosmic Watergate
http://www.konsulting.com/friedman11######L3.wav The trials and tribulations of seeking information through the FOIA process "or How I learned to love the NSA" (most convincing of all the clips of the presentation IMO)

Quotes:

http://www.bibleufo.com/quoteastro.htm (various different categories. It is set for astronaut and cosmonaut quotes but there are many other options as well at the bottom which include congress and presidential quotes. Even an account by Muhammad Ali to Christopher Columbus are quoted.)

Government Documents


I am sure you have probably heard of the MJ-12 documents right? Here are a few of the many pages:

http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj1.jpg
http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj2.jpg
http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj3.jpg
http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj4.jpg
http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj5.jpg
http://www.ufocasebook.com/maj/mj6.jpg

http://www.majesticdocuments.com/pdf/rmwood_mufon2001.pdf (Concerning the validity of the many MJ 12 documents after many years of scientific study)

Video Interview of Ryan Wood: http://www.majesticdocuments.com/authentication_videos.php

Documentary Excerpts:
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/documentary_excerpts.php

.pdf Documents:
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/10reasons.pdf
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/rmwood_mufon2000.pdf
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/anotherlookatmajestic.pdf
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/psywar.pdf

Also, concerning the validity of the MJ-12 documents I highly recommend you check out this MJ-12 update article by Stanton Friedman: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/mj12_update1.html

Other PROVEN Authentic Documents:


Intelligence Invisory Board:
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/iab14meeting_17july47.pdf

"From Record Group 353, Entry 411-413 Box 96 Interdepartmental committees comes another smoking gun memo. The Central Intelligence Group (CIG) had an Intelligence Advisory Board IAB, which held its 14th meeting on Thursday, July 17th 1947. The agenda memo shows one blacked out agenda item number three and none of the associated tabs are declassified yet. If you believe that the Roswell event or New Mexico crashes of early July 1947 are real then this was the first official meeting of the IAB and logical the event(s) would have been thoroughly discussed. This document does not preclude that conclusion."

Air Materiel Command (AMC) Opinion Concerning "Flying Discs":
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/twiningopinionamc_23sept47.pdf

"Found at the National Archives in Record Group 341 by many researchers, at least a decade ago, this three page opinion is unequivocal statement for the reality of Flying Discs and UFOs. "The phenomenon reported is something real and not visionary or fictitious." Note that this is a Secret memo and deals with the sighting data alone and makes no direct reference to other data such as crashes. However, the opinion does clearly state "the lack of physical evidence in the shape of crash recovered exhibits which would undeniable prove the existence of the objects." Is this in conflict with the other memos that support crash retrievals? No, not at all. This is a secret perfunctory memo and could be an effective cover story if leaked to Soviet Intelligence. Although the memo was signed by Twining it was coordinated with many others at AMC Col, Moore - Chief of the Aircraft laboratory, DA Dicky - Chief of the Propeller laboratory, General DL Putt - Engineering Division, Col. Minty - Chief Power Plant Laboratory and General Bevtual of T-3. The net result of this memo is that the government has confirmed the validity of the phenomenon and later goes on to establish programs Sign, Grudge, and Bluebook on the Secret level while at the same time developing a Top Secret Majestic program to deal with the super sensitive aspects of dead ET bodies and crash wreckage analysis."

Cutler to Twining Memo:
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/cutler_twining.pdf

"Discovered in National Archives Record Group 341, Headquarters of the U.S. Air Force in box 189 by William Moore and Jamie Shandera and later photocopied by archivist Ed Reese, it is a carbon in original form. It is original onionskin paper with FOX watermark appropriate for the era. The short memo notes a subject of NSC/MJ-12 Special Studies Project but does not explain what that is. Now we have clear evidence that there was a MJ-12 project and that both General Twining, President Eisenhower and Robert Cutler knew about it."

Blount–Evans and Evans to Blount memos:
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/blount_evans.pdf

"Found at the National Archives in Record Group 341, Entry 44, Box 127 this pair of memo's and routing slip show clear linkage between MIT's Department of Physics (Dr. Robley Evans) and Lt. Col. Robert H. Blount (Medical Corps), Chief, Medical Research Division part of the Office of the Surgeon General. Discussed is a RESTRICTED Psychological Analysis of Reports Unidentified Aerial Objects (UAO) prepared by the Aero Medical Laboratory at Wright Field and a new TOP SECRET report that is in the process of being published (March 1950). However, the most stunning aspect of these letters is a reference to "one of these so called flying saucers crashed in Mexico; however, the details are somewhat bizarre at this moment."

U.S.A.F. Memo Regarding Swedish Air Intelligence Service
http://209.132.68.98/pdf/usaf_swedish4nov48.pdf

"This National Archives declassified Top Secret memo dated 4 Nov 1948 clearly establishes that the U.S.A.F. is "concerned by the recurring reports of flying saucers...one was observed hovering over Neuibiberg Air Base for about thirty minutes." The memo goes on to discuss a visit with Swedish Air Intelligence Service, the Swedes said that "reliable and fully technically qualified people have reached the conclusion that these phenomenon are obviously the result of a high technical skill which cannot be credited to any presently known culture on earth."

Here is the testimony of a couple of the disclosure project members briefly describing their personal, direct, first hand accounts accounts regarding the subject matter:

"US Navy Pilot, Lieutenant Fredrick Fox
There is a [Military] publication called JANAP 146E that says you will not reveal any information regarding the UFO phenomenon under penalty of $10,000 dollar fine and ten years in jail. So the secret has been kept."
I happen to have that particular government document. You can find it here: http://www.blackvault.com/documents/ufos/oasd/janap0.htm It is 33 pages long. You can maximize the images by clicking on them then maximizing the newly loaded image by moving your mouse over the image then click the little box that appears in the lower right.

"Marine Corps, Corporal Jonathon Weygandt
[The UFO] was buried in the side of the cliff. When I first saw it, I was scared. I think the creatures calmed me....[Later] I was arrested [by an Air Force officer]. He was saying, "Do you like the Constitution?", I'm like, "yeah." He said, "We don't obey. We just do what we want. And if you tell anybody [about us or the UFO], you will just come up missing."


"US Air Force Lieutenant, Professor Robert Jacobs
So this thing [UFO] fires a beam of light at the warhead, hits it then moves to the other side and fires another beam of light. And the warhead tumbles out of space. What message would I interpret from that? [The UFO's were telling us] Don't mess with nuclear warheads. Major Mannsman said, "You are never to speak of this again." After an article [about the incident years later], people would call and start screaming at me. One night somebody blew up my mailbox."


"US Army, General Stephen Lovekin
Colonel Holoman brought out a piece of what appeared to be metallic debris. He went on to explain that this was material that had come from a New Mexico crash in 1947 of an extraterrestrial craft, and that was discussed at length....I got an opportunity to travel with the president [Eisenhower]. He was very, very interested in what made [the UFOs] go. But what happened was that Eisenhower got sold out. He realized that he was losing control of the UFO subject. He realized that the [study of these technologies] was not going to be in the best hands. That was a real concern."


Read about the other brief testimony descriptions of the disclosure project here:
http://www.disclosureproject.org/PDF-Docum...tSecret2pgs.pdf

And remember this is only a select few of over 400 former government employees involved with the disclosure project.
Sweetpumper
QUOTE(Prophecy Guru @ Jul 25 2006, 07:10 PM) [snapback]1282874[/snapback]

Sure thing,

Here are the top 3 abduction cases of all time:



I can't believe you still have to post these for people.
Murderman187
darnit GURU, i think you just posted every known bit of evidence in your last post. That was allot, thanks
scoobysnack
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 08:27 AM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif


Can't say that I fell victim (completely) to any of them.

Just so everyone knows, government have jobs for people designed specifically for spreading lies and disinformation. The biggest liars and hoaxters are people we hire to run our lives.

Check out COINTELPRO

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COINTELPRO

It's how the government uses agents to infiltrate groups of radical thinkers or people who get to close to the truth, to then discredit, and agitate, or provoke the group into doing somthing stupid that would then provide justification for the authorities to come in and maintain order.

There are people on the internet who's government job is to spread disinfo, and throw people off the track of suppressed truth.

The biggest liars are government officials who by law can't even tell you the truth because the truth is classified. All you get instead are half truth, and lies. You won't find out the truth until they declassify the info.

Why don't the public know about UFO? It's all classified. They couldn't even tell you legally if they wanted to. So what makes you (the average world citizen) think they have an accurate perception of reality. You don't.
scoobysnack
QUOTE(WaltFreakinWhitman @ Jul 25 2006, 11:59 AM) [snapback]1282708[/snapback]

Here is a link to a hoax that embarrased the scientific community. proving anyone even our oh so smart scientists can be fooled by hoaxers
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/transcripts/3202_hoax.html


Off on a tangent, the oldest human skeleton found in North America was of European decent (white), not Native American. Since all native American assume they were there first, they demanded the scientific give the body back so they could give it a proper native American burial. The scientists tried to argue that it was not of native American heritage, but they didn't want to believe them because that would mean they were not actually native Americans, and were just American indians.

Check out the "kenniwick man"

http://www.mnh.si.edu/arctic/html/kennewick_man.html

There are scientists working for the U.S. government that can never tell you what they know. Why would people of earth think they have been told the whole truth.
skyeagle409
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif



But, there are thousands and thousands of UFO case files on record that skeptics were unable to debunk including the 1976 Iranian UFO encounter. Read how debunker Phil Klass made himself a laughing stock when he tried to debunk this incident.
_______________________________________________________________________________

1976 Iranian UFO Encounter

"An outstanding report. This case is a classic which meets all the criteria necessary for a valid study of the UFO phenomenon:

a) The object was seen by multiple witnesses from different locations (i.e., Shamiran, Mehrabad, and the dry lake bed) and viewpoints (both airborne and from the ground).
cool.gif The credibility of many of the witnesses was high (an Air Force general, qualified aircrews, and experienced tower operators).

c) Visual sightings were confirmed by radar.

d) Similar electromagnetic effects (EME) were reported by three separate aircraft.

e) There were physiological effects on some crew members (i.e., loss of night vision due to the brightness of the object).

f) An inordinate amount of maneuverability was displayed by the UFOs."


"In his book UFOs: The Public Deceived, debunker Philip J. Klass claimed the witnesses initially saw an astronomical body, probably Jupiter, and pilot incompetence and equipment malfunction accounted for the rest."

"Although Jupiter was by far then the brightest astronomical object in the sky (except for a rising crescent moon), it is not possible for it to have been the object that the F-4's were directed to or chased. The bright object was first noticed by witnesses in Shemiran, the northernmost district of Tehran. One of the witnesses in the northeastern part of Tehran was Gen. Yousefi himself, who ordered the jet interceptions. The jets were scrambled from Shahrokhi AFB in Hamadan, about 150 miles west-southwest of Tehran, and vectored to a point 40 miles north of central Tehran. However, Jupiter was in the east. Thus the UFO was approximately 90 degrees away from Jupiter at the time. In addition, the second F-4 chased the UFO from northern to southern Tehran. Again, Jupiter would be at nearly 90 degrees to the pursuit trajectory."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_Incident
________________________________________________________________________________
AstroPro
QUOTE(skyeagle409 @ Jul 25 2006, 07:56 PM) [snapback]1283133[/snapback]

But, there are thousands and thousands of UFO case files on record that skeptics were unable to debunk including the 1976 Iranian UFO encounter. Read how debunker Phil Klass made himself a laughing stock when he tried to debunk this incident.
_______________________________________________________________________________

1976 Iranian UFO Encounter

"An outstanding report. This case is a classic which meets all the criteria necessary for a valid study of the UFO phenomenon:

a) The object was seen by multiple witnesses from different locations (i.e., Shamiran, Mehrabad, and the dry lake bed) and viewpoints (both airborne and from the ground).
cool.gif The credibility of many of the witnesses was high (an Air Force general, qualified aircrews, and experienced tower operators).

c) Visual sightings were confirmed by radar.

d) Similar electromagnetic effects (EME) were reported by three separate aircraft.

e) There were physiological effects on some crew members (i.e., loss of night vision due to the brightness of the object).

f) An inordinate amount of maneuverability was displayed by the UFOs."
"In his book UFOs: The Public Deceived, debunker Philip J. Klass claimed the witnesses initially saw an astronomical body, probably Jupiter, and pilot incompetence and equipment malfunction accounted for the rest."

"Although Jupiter was by far then the brightest astronomical object in the sky (except for a rising crescent moon), it is not possible for it to have been the object that the F-4's were directed to or chased. The bright object was first noticed by witnesses in Shemiran, the northernmost district of Tehran. One of the witnesses in the northeastern part of Tehran was Gen. Yousefi himself, who ordered the jet interceptions. The jets were scrambled from Shahrokhi AFB in Hamadan, about 150 miles west-southwest of Tehran, and vectored to a point 40 miles north of central Tehran. However, Jupiter was in the east. Thus the UFO was approximately 90 degrees away from Jupiter at the time. In addition, the second F-4 chased the UFO from northern to southern Tehran. Again, Jupiter would be at nearly 90 degrees to the pursuit trajectory."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976_Tehran_UFO_Incident
________________________________________________________________________________


What a coincidence. I was JUST about to post that incident.
SpikeJ
The idea of snuff films drives me crazy. Why a real snuff film has never found is beyond me, but then they're gonna tell me that they could never exist is rediculous. Snuff films in my oppinion are real.
FireMoon
I dont know of anyone who studies media/20th century history who thinks that the *Zinoviev Letter* was anything but a hoax perpetrated by the British press in cahoots with the secret service and other right wing elements... So to see it listed as a possible hoax is a big surprise...
FireMoon
The problem with snuff films is this... that becasue we have been brought up on a diet of horror movies etc etc our whole perception of what dying/torture etc is like is totally coloured... We expect action, groans screams the whole shebang but it isnt like that....

As a youngster i worked with a guy who had no fingernails cos the Japanese prison guards in the camp he was held in pulled them all out by the roots.. I asked him about the pain.. He smiled wryly and said... i screamed once and blackout when i woke up they had all gone... Now that would hardly make a thrill packed movie would it?? One scream guy passes out and then they pull the rest out of a totally limp body...

Its the same for things like whippings etc... From accounts ive read you feel about the first half dozen and then the nerves just shut down and your whole body goes into a sort of shock that , while you might still be aware you dont feel... Again sorta totally defeats the idea of torture as *entertainment*..

We expect to see technicolour blood spurting everywhere , screams etc... we expct the victim to *act and entetain us* by taking part in the whole scene..The truth is they dont in real life the brain and the body just shut down.

True torture would be a 3 day long film and just as gruelling in many ways for the watcher as the victim, in that, it would be large periods of boredom interspersed with a few minutes of terror from time to time... There is no way that the watcher could truly understand the isolation and the terror of the victim because , by and large, they dont say anything.. There would be so few verbal hints that you'd turn off from sheer boredom after about an hour.

So the truth is, real death just aint Hollywood enough to bother with, Chances are ,no one would be interested in it because it wouldn't actually *look real*.... Strange paradox, but there you go...

BTW those taken in by so called *snuff movies* are usually the sort of people would rather read the dictionary than watch a typical *violent hollywood film*............ and that probably says more than any amount of research into the subject..
skyeagle409
QUOTE(Prophecy Guru @ Jul 26 2006, 12:36 AM) [snapback]1283172[/snapback]

What a coincidence. I was JUST about to post that incident.


That's interesting!

There are skeptics who've claimed that major UFO incidents such as the Iranian UFO incident and the 1952 Washington UFO incidents, have been dubunked but whenever I ask them to post their evidence, they cite the Air Force and debunkers such as Phil Klass, Tim Prinity, E. U. Condon, CSICOP, and the Skeptical Inquirer.
antigravity
Yeah I would have to agree that somewhere at sometime someone was literally killed on film. Maybe not tortured for hours on end, but maybe blown away with gun or something. I don't think "faces of death" is considered snuff, I guess there has to be a plot, actors, etc.

As far as the UFO phenomenon, my favorite cases would be the Trent photos and the Tridade photos which have yet to be debunked.
WaltFreakinWhitman
QUOTE(Prophecy Guru @ Jul 25 2006, 03:10 PM) [snapback]1282874[/snapback]

Sure thing,

Here are the top 3 abduction cases of all time:


That's some good posting Prophecy Guru thumbup.gif
DEBUNKER
Comon Scoobysnack,are you seriously implying that the US governmet are paying the skepics on woo woo sites like this one. Dude you are seriously loosing it. Just because I and someother of the other "agents" here needs a little more than just a blurry picture or a story from a some cop back in the 40s to believe, doesn`t make us spooks.

laugh.gif wacko.gif
chadster
QUOTE(hazzard @ Jul 25 2006, 06:22 PM) [snapback]1282813[/snapback]

That is exactly how I see it, could it be that most of these "believers" suffer from ignorance,no seriously, I really whant to know how people can buy some of this nonsense.

Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media. Blurry photos, quotes taken out of context and sketchy eyewitness accounts have inspired a slew of elaborate theories.

-If they cant understand the pictures from Mars,Cydonia. = Aliens on mars.

-If they don't understand space flight = Faked moon landing.

-If they cant identify an aerial phenomenon = Alien spaceships on Earth (or UFOs as they like to call them.)

The hoax, if true, is fooling a vast cadre of experts world-wide, not just in the evil US government, WORLD WIDE, yet ineptly unable to pull the wool over the eyes of a few "believers" on some fringe web site!? How this can make sense to an adult person is beyond me.

Could it be that most of these hoax stories are believed to be true by people who have never accomplished anything (that they feel is important) in their lives, and want to comfort themselves by believing that they now,finally,has one up on the government, scientists, NASA, military,SETI or whatever.

Like our friend Lilly once said.




You mean like people 100 years ago thought people who wanted to fly in things we call airplanes were ignorant and full of nonsense?

Or what about putting someone on the moon? I'm sure someone said that was nonsense and impossible...

What about the 2 australian doctors who found out stomach ulcers were actually caused by bacteria?
The medical community harrassed them and called them crazy....they tried to say bacteria can't survive in the stomach. Low and behold, its now shown that bacteria causes stomach ulcers...and they won the nobel peace prize...

I think its been proven over the thousands of years that man is wrong ALOT. Even the ones who are at the top of their game. It's been proven that humans are arrogant and want to believe that we are special....we're unique, and that there isn't life out there, and if there is life its really far away.

People get a sense of security and belonging by not believing in this stuff. They feel safe on earth, without a threat, or new species outside of our planet.

That is fact.

Do I believe in aliens? yes...

Do I believe they visit earth? yes...

Could I be wrong? yes...

Could you be wrong also? Absolutely....

So until 1 lands on the whitehouse, or flies through downtown L.A. or New York...

Or CNN flashes it all over T.V.

We won't know for sure. So, why don't you stop calling people ignorant who have beliefs different than yours?

It doesn't help anything.
Roj47
QUOTE(chadster @ Jul 26 2006, 03:46 PM) [snapback]1283834[/snapback]

You mean like people 100 years ago thought people who wanted to fly in things we call airplanes were ignorant and full of nonsense?

Or what about putting someone on the moon? I'm sure someone said that was nonsense and impossible...

What about the 2 australian doctors who found out stomach ulcers were actually caused by bacteria?
The medical community harrassed them and called them crazy....they tried to say bacteria can't survive in the stomach. Low and behold, its now shown that bacteria causes stomach ulcers...and they won the nobel peace prize...


The only problem I have with your post is that people did not believe we could fly in aeroplanes, put someone on the moon, doctors finding ulcers through bacterial infection etc....

These are all things that when the person was told it could not be done..... They went out and did it. Wholeheartedly proving that it can be done.

I see a plane in the air if I look.

I see footage of man on the moon.

So here's the killer....... Likewise give me something that is very believable or show me the sky so I can see it with my eyes.

I would assume most are like me and want to believe..... It is just we can't and would love to be proven wrong.
DEBUNKER
QUOTE(Roj47 @ Jul 26 2006, 02:51 PM) [snapback]1283841[/snapback]


I would assume most are like me and want to believe..... It is just we can't and would love to be proven wrong.


As far as Im concerned Roj47 is correct,I would love to believe,but I cant,the ALIENS ON EARTH "evidence" leaves a little to much to the believers imagination.

Hard scientific evidence is my friend. I want every news media on the planet to scream the news ,WE MADE CONTACT/WE ARE NOT ALONE,before Ill become a true believer.


Like someone said earlier,well probably find alien bacteria before any spaceship shows up. But hey,that would kick,almost,as much ass. thumbsup.gif
makaya325
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 01:27 PM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".

Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif


the patterson footage shouldnt be a probable hoax. it isnt. it should be considered only possible. its very unlikely to be a hoax
AstroPro
QUOTE(chadster @ Jul 26 2006, 10:46 AM) [snapback]1283834[/snapback]

You mean like people 100 years ago thought people who wanted to fly in things we call airplanes were ignorant and full of nonsense?

Or what about putting someone on the moon? I'm sure someone said that was nonsense and impossible...

What about the 2 australian doctors who found out stomach ulcers were actually caused by bacteria?
The medical community harrassed them and called them crazy....they tried to say bacteria can't survive in the stomach. Low and behold, its now shown that bacteria causes stomach ulcers...and they won the nobel peace prize...

I think its been proven over the thousands of years that man is wrong ALOT. Even the ones who are at the top of their game. It's been proven that humans are arrogant and want to believe that we are special....we're unique, and that there isn't life out there, and if there is life its really far away.

People get a sense of security and belonging by not believing in this stuff. They feel safe on earth, without a threat, or new species outside of our planet.

That is fact.

Do I believe in aliens? yes...

Do I believe they visit earth? yes...

Could I be wrong? yes...

Could you be wrong also? Absolutely....

So until 1 lands on the whitehouse, or flies through downtown L.A. or New York...

Or CNN flashes it all over T.V.

We won't know for sure. So, why don't you stop calling people ignorant who have beliefs different than yours?

It doesn't help anything.


Very well put, Chadster.

Dr. Simon Newcomb in October, 1903, published an article "scientifically" proving that the only way man would ever fly would be with the help of a balloon -- just two months before the Wright Brothers' first flight.

Dr. Bickerton in the 1920's proved "scientifically" that it would be impossible to provide anything with sufficient energy to place it in orbit around the earth.

Dr. Campbell, at the U. of W. Ontario, proved "scientifically" in 1941 that the required initial launch weight of a chemical rocket able to take a man to the moon and back would be only 300,000,000 times higher than what was actually required as demonstrated less than 30 years later by the Apollo Program. Campbell made such pseudoscientific assumptions as that the rocket would have only one stage, would be limited to 1G acceleration, would be launched vertically, and would require a retrorocket to slow it down before return to earth. The NASA aerospace engineers and applied scientists of course used a multistage rocket, exposed the astronauts to several Gs, launched to the East from near the equator, and took advantage of the moon's gravity to provide some of the energy and the earth's atmosphere to slow down the rocket upon return.

Making wrong assumptions usually leads to false conclusions.


Source: http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sfnyt.html
Daniella2310
Why is Ashlee Simpson there? Why is that girl EVERYWHERE?? angry.gif

Ah Lobsang Rampa.....read his 2 most famous books...I was SO DISSAPOINTED when I heard he was a fake no.gif no.gif no.gif
Daniella2310
QUOTE(FireMoon @ Jul 25 2006, 09:06 PM) [snapback]1283199[/snapback]



True torture would be a 3 day long film

More like a 3 hour film, a.k.a The Passion. I think I lost 10 years of my life after I watched that movie, it was bad bad bad!(not saying that it was bad in quality but it was WAY TOO GORY crying.gif crying.gif )
makaya325
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 27 2006, 08:39 AM) [snapback]1284653[/snapback]

As far as Im concerned Roj47 is correct,I would love to believe,but I cant,the ALIENS ON EARTH "evidence" leaves a little to much to the believers imagination.

Hard scientific evidence is my friend. I want every news media on the planet to scream the news ,WE MADE CONTACT/WE ARE NOT ALONE,before Ill become a true believer.
Like someone said earlier,well probably find alien bacteria before any spaceship shows up. But hey,that would kick,almost,as much ass. thumbsup.gif


but do u believe well find complex life, like animals? uncivilized animal life i think is abundant in the cosmos. but intelligent civilized life is a fluke
makaya325
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 27 2006, 08:39 AM) [snapback]1284653[/snapback]

As far as Im concerned Roj47 is correct,I would love to believe,but I cant,the ALIENS ON EARTH "evidence" leaves a little to much to the believers imagination.

Hard scientific evidence is my friend. I want every news media on the planet to scream the news ,WE MADE CONTACT/WE ARE NOT ALONE,before Ill become a true believer.
Like someone said earlier,well probably find alien bacteria before any spaceship shows up. But hey,that would kick,almost,as much ass. thumbsup.gif


but do u believe well find complex life, like animals? uncivilized animal life i think is abundant in the cosmos. but intelligent civilized life is a fluke
DEBUNKER
QUOTE(makaya325 @ Jul 28 2006, 06:04 AM) [snapback]1285931[/snapback]

but do u believe well find complex life, like animals? uncivilized animal life i think is abundant in the cosmos. but intelligent civilized life is a fluke


I believe that simple life forms like bacteria and extremophiles are the most frequent forms of life in the universe.

Just consider this,there are millions and millions of species on Earth,how many do you consider intelligent ? Not many .

Extremophiles and Astrobiology.

QUOTE
Astrobiology is the field concerned with forming theories about the distribution, nature, and future of life in the universe. In it, microbial ecologists, astronomers, planetary scientists, geochemists, philosophers, and explorers cooperate to constructively guide the search for life on other planets. Astrobiologists are particularly interested in studying extremophiles, as many organisms of this type are capable of surviving in environments similar to those known to exist on other planets. For example, Mars may have regions in its deep subsurface permafrost that could harbor endolith communities. The subsurface water ocean of Jupiter's moon Europa may harbor life, especially at hypothesized hydrothermal vents at the ocean floor. Extraterrestrial life is expected to be largely microbial, and as conditions as forgiving as those found on Earth are rare in known planetary systems, extremophiles and their biology are thought to represent appropriate analogues to possible extraterrestrial life.

Apollo 12 astronauts retrieved parts from the lunar probe Surveyor 3 for analysis. A common bacteria, Streptococcus mitis, was unintentionally present inside the spacecraft's camera at launch. Around 50 to 100 of these bacteria survived dormant in this harsh environment for three years, to be detected when Apollo 12 brought the camera back to Earth. Many bacteria have dormant forms - such as spores - which can survive in harsh environments.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremophiles
Roj47
QUOTE(makaya325 @ Jul 28 2006, 07:04 AM) [snapback]1285930[/snapback]

but do u believe well find complex life, like animals? uncivilized animal life i think is abundant in the cosmos. but intelligent civilized life is a fluke


Do I believe we will find complicated life?

I would suggest anything (even single cell) would be complicated life as compared to Earth. Should life be found in our solar system, it will be under very different conditions to Earth.

Should you mean life forms such as animal. I believe the universe is too large to not have this form of life.

Do I believe in civilisation on another planet? Pretty much the same as above.

I do not however believe we will find anything more than single cell life forms (if lucky) in the near future.

I can not begin to explain the excitement I would show if it was proven.

I can't believe, but want to.
makaya325
QUOTE(Roj47 @ Jul 28 2006, 08:34 AM) [snapback]1286000[/snapback]

Do I believe we will find complicated life?

I would suggest anything (even single cell) would be complicated life as compared to Earth. Should life be found in our solar system, it will be under very different conditions to Earth.

Should you mean life forms such as animal. I believe the universe is too large to not have this form of life.

Do I believe in civilisation on another planet? Pretty much the same as above.

I do not however believe we will find anything more than single cell life forms (if lucky) in the near future.

I can not begin to explain the excitement I would show if it was proven.

I can't believe, but want to.


the thing that i believe is that microbes are common. animal life would be abundant in the universe. not civilizations, but as smart as dogs cats etc.
hazzard
QUOTE(makaya325 @ Jul 28 2006, 06:35 PM) [snapback]1286529[/snapback]

the thing that i believe is that microbes are common.


It has been hypothesized that chemosynthesis may support life below the surface of Mars, Jupiter's moon Europa, and other planets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemosynthesis




hybrid_host127
QUOTE(DEBUNKER @ Jul 25 2006, 08:27 AM) [snapback]1282481[/snapback]

These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.



I believe a lot of hoaxes are drummed up by those who know the truth, but don't want others to know. They create something to mislead to throw others off.

In doing this, they lie so as to be proven as having told a lie at a latter date. Disillusionment I think it's called.
Bosanchero
Hi Hi Hi
first of all "Prophecy Guru" it goes #1 than #2 THAN #3 not #3#2#3 lol

2nd of all my FANTASY of a date with Jesica alba is still quiet aliveeeee original.gif

"GURU" you stated that
QUOTE

Just one case needs to be real and that changes everything!

but you must understand after series of FAKES, HOAXES its quiet HARD to belive in ANY of this crap original.gif
makaya325
animal life MIGHT be found on europa, but civilized life in the universe is probably numbered in the 10's
AstroPro
QUOTE(makaya325 @ Aug 1 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]1291030[/snapback]

animal life MIGHT be found on europa, but civilized life in the universe is probably numbered in the 10's


You mean 10's of BILLIONS! Don't tell me you are still buying into that rare earth nonsense are you? There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to believe that intelligent life is not common. As far as we know, all intelligent life needs to arise on a planet such as earth, is time. The only planet that we know of that possesses life also developed intelligent life as well. Coincidence? Probably not. Many rare earth creationist's claim that out of all the species on Earth only one developed intelligence. As if this is anything significant. Homo Sapiens were around at the same time as Neanderthals, however, Homo Sapiens prospered and Neanderthals died out for failure to compete with the more intelligent species.

As Frank Drake once said,

"The Earths fossil record is quite clear in showing that the complexity of the central nervous system -- particularly the capabilities of the brain -- has steadily increased in the course of evolution. Even the mass extinctions did not set back this steady increase in brain size. It can be argued that extinction events expedite the development of cognitive abilities, since those creatures with superior brains are better able to save themselves from the sudden change in their environment ... There is a claim that "among the millions of species which have developed on Earth, only one became intelligent, so intelligence must be a very, very rare event." This is a textbook example of a wrong logical conclusion. All planets in time may produce one or more intelligent species, but they will not appear simultaneously. One will be first. It will look around and find it is the only intelligent species. Should it be surprised? No! Of course the first one will be alone. Its uniqueness -- in principal temporary -- says nothing about the ability of the biota to produce one or more intelligent species."
AstroPro
QUOTE(Bosanchero @ Jul 29 2006, 01:47 PM) [snapback]1287546[/snapback]

but you must understand after series of FAKES, HOAXES its quiet HARD to belive in ANY of this crap original.gif


Not really. Many of the fakes and hoaxes are quite obvious from the beginning and most are even debunked by ufologists. The fact of the matter is, there are more cases that defy explanation than are the other way around. I would also like to add that, I personally, don't pay much attention to simple Joe Schmoe's off the street unless there is ample evidence provided. I was also never fooled by the likes of Bob Lazar, Philip J. Corso, Billy Meier and others. I spend more time looking at the political aspect of the UFO phenomenon and professionally documented sightings by Air Force pilots, Commercial Airline pilots, Military Personnel, Astronomers, Physicist's, and so on. It is always important to approach a topic with some skepticism, but not bias. One should never come to a conclusion before there is substantial evidence one way or the other. I never make proclamations I cannot back up with evidence.

Should one come to the conclusion that there is nothing of substance to a particular topic if it has been proven that there have been hoaxes in the past? Absolutely not. That is like losing all trust in your family and friends simply because they played a joke on you on April fools day. If after careful investigation you have come to the conclusion that there is nothing of substance to the subject matter, then you have been investigating the wrong cases -- plain and simple.
Poetic Reven
I just keep finding this stuff all ove. Other than repeat my self I will give links here and here. You have to scroll down a bit on both to find my posts but rest assured they have a lot of meaning. Class dissmissed.
skyeagle409
QUOTE
name='DEBUNKER' date='Jul 25 2006, 01:27 PM' post='1282481']
These are some claims that have been revealed to be deliberate public hoaxes:
Have a look, maybe your fantasy has been debunked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_hoaxes#Proven_hoaxes
Remember that these were once the hard "proof" of aliens,cropcircles and the paranormal world to lots of "believers".Sometimes I wonder how they felt when proven wrong. Maybe they didnt care, they just picked the next "not proven hoax yet" and flored it. yes.gif


My prediction is: Alien reality will be revealed within our lifetime and that revelation will be made known sooner rather than later. Each year, more and more government and military officials are coming forward and revealing alien reality and it is just a matter of time before the rest of the story is made known.

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