No, I know what you're getting at... and all I'm saying in reply is that your ASSUMPTIONS are wrong. Why does it bother you that I disagree with you?



I have seen your kind a million times before also. It's nothing new to me.



You don't seem to understand that since YOU are the one saying this, this is YOUR belief.... not mine.
I've tried to point this out several times but you simply missing that point.



No.... no indication that God has a "small mind". In fact, whatever size God's mind is, is not a factor here. What I'm trying to get you to see is that, no matter how many different opinons and beliefs there are, there is still only one truth. That one truth is what God expects people to know, not go out and try to make up their own stuff to believe in.

You call it God being shallow (or small minded), I call it being honest and truthful. What good would it be for a child to break a vase and then make up something false to cover it when there is always only one truth to it? Do you not see that the truth is what's important here.... not being okay with everyone just making up whatever they want?



Thank you for your forgiveness. I appreciate that.
But I didn't specify who you were directing the name-calling to.
I didn't say you were calling ME any names.

You said, "My God doesn't have a ego" (well that sure sounds like a form of name-calling to me -- as in trying to say that My God is an egotistical being). This is an insult to God.

You also said, "Anyone that seeks to be worshiped is a small minded person" (you are calling God "a small minded person"... pretty much a direct insult to God.

I was just bringing up that the name-calling was not nice and not necessary, no matter who it was directed at. Also, in your original post, you did not specify that you were repeating slandering that has been mentioned by others. You stated it as though it was your own thoughts -- so naturally I responded as such.



No, YOU CHOOSE to see Him that way.

God does not act like a spoiled child. God doesn't "toss people into a burning lake of fire" (nor out of anger)... people do that to themselves. God gives them a fair choice. If they purposely choose to reject their gift of salvation, they are, in fact, choosing to go to hell themselves. THEY make that choice of their own free will. Can't very well blame that on God... therefore, where is this "ego" thing you're trying to pin on Him?

People have a real problem if they have trouble accepting a gift. It is an act of kindness and love. Why would one reject it? Why would someone choose to go to hell instead? Do you associate love with being egotistical? Look at it this way, years ago I fell in love with the woman who is now my wife. I fell in love and wanted to spend the rest of my life with her... so I presented her with a gift (an engagement ring) and asked her if she would marry me (this is was a choice for her, similar to the choice people make in accepting or rejecting God's love and His gift). Simply loving her, presenting her with a gift, and giving her a choice does not mean I have an ego any more than it means God has one. Obviously that woman chose to marry me... and due to that decision, she has followed a path different from one she'd be on now had she chosen not to marry me (just lots of things would have been different in both our lives and our children's lives). This is not so different from the love and choice that God has given us. It's not an egotistical thing. Not the least bit "spiteful" as you also have added to the mix now.



Do you not see that God does what He does out of LOVE FOR US. It is not out of love for Himself. There's nothing that ever points to God having said (or behaving as though) He loves himself or is full of Himself (as in conceited). Such words don't describe God. If God only had pride in Himself, He wouldn't bother with us, He wouldn't have bothered sacrificing His own Son on the cross for OUR sins. He wouldn't have bothered giving us a gift, a choice. He is not thinking of Himself, but of US. Only love and caring would cause one to do such things, not being egotistical.



You always seem to miss the fact that it is not God that throws anyone into any pit.... it is the own doing of that person who chooses which path they take.

As for my own children, if they don't accept a gift (like for example, a birthday gift from me)... and decide to throw a fit and be ugly about it... yes, I have rules for that. They get a time-out in the corner. In other words, as a parent I have set rules for my children to follow and when they are bad, there are consequences (and no, not out of any anger on my part ). The punishment is not necessarily what I hope it will come to, but when my children know what the rules are and they purposely choose to reject them, they already know what is coming. It's called discipline and without it, the world would be in much more of a mess than it already is. Same thing applies here -- it is not ME that is choosing the path for my child... when he chooses the path that gets him in the corner, that's HIS OWN DOING, not mine. Same as with people that reject the path of salvation -- that is their own doing, not God's.

A Christian extremist.

Why does this not surprise me?
How many times in centuries past has this "hypothetical" situation occurred....How many times this very day does it happen?



Leviticus 20:13
If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

So does this mean you are going to start killing Gay people now?


Deuteronomy 21
20: And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21: And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die:
so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

I fear for any children you may have.
Does CPS know where you live?


Luke 14:26
If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

Have you said good bye to your Mommy and Daddy yet?
But look at the flip side to this one......we don't have to keep an eye on you with your kids

I also wish to add an additional comment about this particular statement you made below:


Do you not realize that by saying such a thing, you are trying to get me to believe YOUR BELIEFS?

I've already told you -- I don't believe the same as you. So stop trying to bend me to believe the same things. It isn't going to happen.

No, those scriptures do not mean I'm going to start killing gay people. God told me to follow the Ten Commandments ("Thou shalt not kill').

Ragus your way to far gone to be debating with. I hope that one day logic springs back into your mind. I am not saying that to be offensive, I genuinely believe that it must be a terrible burden to be trapped inside your own dogmatic mind prison of fear (even though you have convinced your self you don’t fear). May you find the key soon.

God created the universe right? I am sure you agree with that, so therefore is responsible for how it works, he makes things so, including making the rules on who goes to hell and who doesn’t, so if God wanted to, he could change the cruel rule that if you get Gods name wrong you can go to Hell, and stop helping his best friend Satan to help fuel Satan's fire, but according to you he continues to create souls knowing most of them are going to eventually burn for all eternity (did he have no control over the creation of all them souls). That my friend is an evil and twisted God. I am offended you see him as that way but I am sure your be forgiven by a genuinely tolerant God you refuse to see..


Am I right in assuming you don’t believe God has free will, or that he is not all powerful, and he cant change things if he wished? You have to believe that as you suggest people going to hell for getting his name wrong is out of Gods hands, it’s the souls fault, well that is what you suggested.

The Bible has more than just the 10 commandments (20 if you count both versions)....and is not the Bible the words of God.....in fact the Bible even says it is God.

No Ragus I don’t want you to believe anything, as I don’t believe God does either, other than spot the unbelievable hypocrisy you spout. And to spot the constant contradictions you have been blinded too.

Believe what you wish, but don’t be surprised when you tremble in front of your all wrathful God with thunder clashing down, and his growling manly voice says your name and then when he giggles and gives you a wedgey and tells you to stop being so silly and go have some fun in his kingdom, maybe then your understand what it is I am trying to tell you. As you seem to think God is some grumpy man with no sense of humour, which would explain your own attitude on this, as the bible teaches you to be more like God right? If God never had a sense of humour trust me he would never had invented fundamentalists.

Yes, the Bible is God's Word.

Do you not acknowledge that God says "thou shalt not kill" in the Ten Commandments?

The Bible teaches Christians to be kind, compassionate, caring, loving, forgiving... things that are good. If you want to pick out verses to point out that God tells us to act differently than that, then that's truly sad. You're missing the mark. You're missing the whole point of what God is trying to tell people with the Bible. Sure, there are verses that say certain things.... I'd have to spend weeks going through my Study Bible to copy down each footnote on what those very verses mean in relation to how the people of today should behave (and I'm not going to do that... call me lazy).

I suggest that you sign up for a bible study group and bring up those verses that you seem to think means people should kill other people (God tells us that is sinful and wrong) and let some people endow you with a little (oops! no A LOT of) Christian knowledge on the subject.

Yes I did acknowledge that Commandment.

The other verses I posted were also commandments from the Bible.

Gods words.
Gods laws.

Okay, good then!



Anyone can take a Bible scripture out of context (putting it alone by itself) and point out that it says something different than what the whole rest of the Bible is saying.

As I suggested before (and you seem to have not noticed), go participate in a Christian Bible Study Group and you'll learn something new about those verses you're referring to.

Oh, so I'm too much of a Christian for ya, eh? Yes, I've got my feet firmly planted in God's soil... and I ain't budgin.
So why are you trying to "debate" with me? Just stop trying to tell me all my beliefs are wrong and that's easily the end of any "debate".
Most people on these religious forums try to be respectful that other people believe differently from them. Why can't you do the same?



It's never left me. But of course, feel free to go on believing what you believe. It isn't hurting me.



Oh, I wasn't at all offended. In fact, I have gotten nothing but a good laugh out of it.

You seem to think I have a terrible burden. Okay... believe what you will. I know better.

And that fear thing you keep throwing at me -- I'll tell you again, GOD IS MY FRIEND, HE'S GOOD TO ME... VERY CARING, LOVING, AND KIND TOWARDS ME -- so yeah, right... like I fear that. Give me a break!!!!!!



Ha!... I just caught you in a contradiction!!!! You just said in another post that you did not believe God was evil (refer to the very first sentence your post #43). Now you're saying He is. So just what are you up to?

Sure, God created the universe and is in control of the number of souls. But you are STILL missing the whole point that it's not God that sends those souls to hell, it is THOSE PEOPLE who send THEMSELVES to hell because THEY MAKE THAT CHOICE. God doesn't make that choice for them. Duh!



You aren't even understanding how I see God. But I've tried to explain. You still are missing it. You're getting the complete wrong idea.
Evidently you don't understand Christianity. I'll just leave it at that. Can you at least respect that I have chosen to be a Christian... instead of sounding like you're trying to change me to believe what YOU believe? Can't we just share our different views and say, "yep, that's different alright" and go on. Why are you hounding me to believe what you believe? I've told you, I'm not going to change belief in what I know to be true. So YOU don't believe that truth.... okay, go on with what you DO believe in and quit telling me I'm wrong. Where's the respect that other people have different opinions than you?



Well part of your problem is that you assume an awful lot... but I'll go ahead and answer this. I do believe that God has the power to change anything He wishes at any time. This is not the same thing I'm talking about. You're trying to say that just because God has the power to save every soul, He is evil for not doing so. You're forgetting that God is a parent who must put forth disciplinary consequences for His children (as most parents do). If God was to save everyone's soul anyway, then why not just let everyone in the world run rampant... murdering, raping, abusing and doing all sorts of horrible things? The whole point God has by providing disciplinary action is to teach his children to be good... to know that bad behavior is not acceptable. This isn't evil (or do you think ALL parents are evil?).

I'm not going to argue with you on this point further because it's just silly. You think God should have special/different parenting abilities because He is the Almighty. Yes, He's got the power, but isn't that sort of cheating to change the rules all the time? (God's soooo not a cheater!). I respect a parent that sticks to His guns. And no, that's not evil. I, for one, appreciate that God has given us boundaries, yet at the same time -- choices! If you applied those same things to children, you'll discover they appreciate those very things too (mine do!).

Actually it translates better as "Thou shalt not murder". Which is logical, since the Israelites used stoning as a form of execution, and ran roughshod over Canaan, putting entire cities to the sword. And even peaceful old Jesus told his posse to be packing when they got to the Garden of G. Christianity is not nearly as peaceful and pacifist of a religion as some would like us to believe.

Ragus you delude your self into believing what you wish. I have not contradicted my self once, because I have not said I believe God is evil, I have only used examples of what others and your self believe, never once did I claimed when talking about God being evil that it is what I believed, so its not going to work sorry. The only time I hinted on my opinion of God was when I said God is tolerant and doesn’t care about what we believe, only what we do. If you want to see me as saying God is evil when I am obviously using examples of what others believe that you wont accept, then go right head, I live in the real world, not the fairy tale world.

I believe God even tolerates you, however whether you are able to forgive your self or not when your time comes is a whole other matter entirely, and is not for me to judge.

One of the reasons I gave up on Christanity after believing in it for over 20 years was because I could not get a decent answer for verses like these and others. It was not an easy decision to make either.

If I may ask how old are you and how long have you been a believer?

If you don't want me to believe YOUR beliefs... then why are you hounding me and telling me that MY beliefs are wrong?

Hypocrisy?? You'll have to prove that one, as I don't get where you're coming up with that.

Contradictions? You'll also have to prove that one, as the only one that has contradicted themselves in our discussion is YOU (when you once said God is not evil... and then you turned around and said that He was!!! LOL ). What I find sad is a person that doesn't even know what THEY believe. Might want to try getting your own belief facts straight before you go pointing fingers at anybody else.



THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not that I needed your permission.



Quite the contrary. I fully believe God has a sense of humor (in fact, we talked about this at my church last Sunday! ). I have not made any comments to you regarding God's humor (if we were discussing that, I didn't know it ). I was talking about some more serious issues, things that laughing at is not appropriate. I sure hope you don't think that laughing is appropriate in ALL situations.

However, on some of the laughable points.... I don't see how the absence of laughter would apply to me (as in your comment about my attitude)... because I can assure you, I've laughed my head off reading some of your replies and replied accordingly (sometimes I even put in laughter emoticons ).

Well thanks for leaving me to my beliefs. I say bye to you now.

Use whatever translation you want to use, Zan.

Zan?

Oh... sorry... I thought I was conversing with zandore. My mistake. Somebody turn on the light switch so I can see.

Aha! There you go again telling me that I believe God is evil. Tsk, tsk!
I have already told you that I don't believe God is evil (what Christian believes God is evil????). We (and I) believe that God is kind, loving, compassionate, forgiving, understanding, righteous.... all GOOD things.

Christians believe that satan is evil. That is what I believe... not that God is. Anybody that knows anything about Christians knows this.

You don't seem to know a whole lot about Christianity.



You are putting your OWN OPINION on what YOU THINK others believe (in this case, on what *I* believe)... and you just don't have a clue what I truly believe... or rather, that you think it's wrong. Sorry, but you have your beliefs and I have mine. So get over it.



Not that I have to answer to you (God is my Father, not you), but I assure you that I have no problem forgiving myself for any WRONGS that I've done (although I've witnessed my wife struggle with forgiving herself for some of her wrongs -- I can see how some may find it a struggle). If you're insinuating that I am wrong in my beliefs... well, that's only YOUR belief now isn't it? And that IS judging. You've not respected that I have different beliefs... instead you have JUDGED me, telling me that what I believe is evil and twisted... and a miriad of other bad things. How right you are that it's not your place to judge, yet that's exactly what you've done to me.

My religion is Christianity (and obviously not what you believe in). I respect that you believe differently from me... and all I request is that you respect that my beliefs are different from yours. Stop telling me that my beliefs are evil. That is judging (in case you didn't know).

I say don't give up on Christianity just because you haven't been able to find decent answers for verses like those (what about the truth you've found in ALL those other verses? Doesn't that account for something?). Anyway, what places did you look for the answers? As I still suggest, a good Christian Bible Study group will be able to help you with that (and remember not all Christian churches are alike... so be choosy). If you lived close to me, I'd surely invite you to my study group and let you toss in your questions.



May I ask why you need to know that? (not being smart... just curious)

Springhealed Jack - you're arguing against missionaries sharing their beliefs with other people. If that's your belief, then that's fine. You are free to your opinion. But you seem awful convinced that ragus is wrong, and you're telling ragus straight out that his view of God is wrong. Words I've noted in your post directly relating to this member include, but are not limited to: brainwashed, deluded, blinded, "too far gone". Not only is that disrespectful and inflammatory (and thus against Forum Rules), doesn't that sound eerily similar to trying to convert someone (ie, change their beliefs to what you believe).

Regards, PA

btw,
Add me to the list of "extremists" also then. I'd do whatever God tells me to do (luckily, such a hypothetical situation would never play out in real life). From where you sit, the answer was a win/win (or lose/lose for ragus) situation. If he'd answered with a 'no', you'd make a comment on him not trusting God, then quote scripture where God says to obey his every command.

Um...

I think you should do whatever you want to do and not listen to an imaginary phantom. Just because I don't follow what "God tells me", doesn't mean I'm a murderous, raping lunatic. I can be a free human being and still behave like one.
Christianity doesn't have monopoly on things like love, kindness and generosity, even if it might want to force that upon us.

...and by the way, if I now just offended God by outright denying his existence, how come he doesn't "bolt" me like in the good old days?
With good old times meaning the Old Testament where he slaughtered non-believers to the left and right.

To answer the question; he can't. And why? Not beacuse he is a "loving, forgiving God" but because he, once again, does. Not. Exist.

God has the power... so yes, He can. The reason He doesn't "bolt you like in the good old days" is because things have been different since Jesus came along. There isn't any need for God to take such drastic action like that today because of the choice He now gives us regarding salvation.

If you want a better understanding of your OT.....I would suggest using the Hebrew Tanakh

Christianity uses part of it for the OT.


Hey Nirvana....how does it feel to be me?

Curious also that, and trying to figure just where you are coming from.

Thanks for the link. I'm curious - why do you recommend the Tanakh. I read through that link and some of the passages, and while interesting in parts (using the term "HaShem" instead of "the Lord" for example), it wasn't greatly different to the Old Testament, except a minor rearrangements of the books themselves (into the Pentateuch, Prophets, Writings). I just wanted to know why you feel the Tanakh is more useful than the current Old Testament. Thanks, z.

How easily you forget a debate we had about this.

OK, as apparently the only person here who has participated in missionary work in Africa, I thought I should go ahead and add a post to this thread.

I did not go to Uganda to dangle food and help in front of needy people (like PA, I am not trying to imply that didn't happen in the past), that's pretty disgusting!

We provide help to people whether they are already Christians, or if they are Muslim (very predominant in the areas we go to), Animist, or whatever. We DO share with them the Good News.

The reason we do so, is that due to our BELIEFS, their eternal situation is just as important to us as their current one.

I used this analogy before, but it really describes my reasons for going, and the reasons of at least the majority of the missionaries from my church and the ones I have know throuhgout the world:

If you had the cure for cancer and went to a hospital full of cancer patients would you spend your time giving them water, changing their sheets, giving them sponge baths, holding their hands, comforting their families, etc. or would you forgo doing all those nice, necessary, humane, sweet things to insure you dispensed the cure to as many as quickly as you could?

You see we believe that a personal relationship with Jesus is the way not only to eternal salvation, but to a life of great service here on Earth. So, from our standpoint it would be cruel to go to Africa help them with their other problems and leave without giving them the cure for cancer.

From our standpoint, it would be CRUEL not to share the GOOD NEWS.

We believe that someday we will all stand before God to be judged. We will all be judged for our actions. Those who did not accept God's gift of Salvation will have to answer for every instance where they knew what the right thing to do was and chose not to. And they will be thrown into the Lake of Fire (yeah, it's horrible isn't it, decisions have consequences) Those who did accept the gift will also be judged, but their name will be found in the Book of Life and Jesus will remind the judge that their transgressions have already been paid in full.

I tell people about Salvation because I do not want to look over and see anyone I could have reached, standing with those condemned to the second death.

Someone made a good point in a previous post on this thread. Why don't atheists organize groups that give up their time and money face privations, disease, threats, and death and go selflessly help people without trying to CONVERT them to atheism?

Okay, I guess that's fair enough. Just don't use my answer to tear anything apart, ok.

I am in the neighborhood of fortyish and have been a Christian believer pretty much my entire life (my earliest memory of having Christian belief (although limited due to the young age) goes back to age 3). I admit I have been raised as a Christian and still live as such... but don't think that limits me. I have studied other religions and honestly tried to understand why people believe in those.

I am sorry PA, but this thread has shown classic examples of brainwashing and avoiding facts and reality in order to continue on with a fantasy. PA I will not and cant censor my thoughts and right of opinion. I am not into offending people and directly calling them names, but confronting someone with uncomfortable facts is going to cause offence, but I feel when people believe in something that is only a fantasy and they wish to brainwash others with that psychological abuse which causes more suffering than good, then I have no other way of expressing my self other than to talk out against it. I have seen so much ignorance an arrogance done by so called “Christians” that barge on in to peoples lives glossing over the reality of what they are actually doing saying "we are spreading the good news" we are "saving there souls" when in reality they cause horrendous amount of evil, then when people start really questioning them and about the evil they have done they cross there chest accuse people of blasphemy then walk away leaving the carnage behind them for someone else to clear up. I find this sick and the result of brainwashing, however I know good real Christians that do none of this, and just help people full stop, there is no hidden catch, no secret manipulation of beliefs, or brainwashing, they just want to help someone out of suffering the ones I talk about are the ones who really only want to feed there own egos and to inflict mind manipulation on those who are venerable.

I will not police my own opinions to please anyone who bullies others who don’t say what they agree with. I am free to think what I wish. If it gets me banned from a site then so be it. Anyone is free to question or bring me up on anything they wish its called a open debate. If I see something I see as brainwashing I will say so.

Please take the time to read THIS I would like to add that I don’t agree with everything on that site.

I was not asking just to tear apart.
A bit older that I would have thought.

So you have never had a reason to look at your faith through the eyes of one that does not believe as you?

Springhealed Jack -It is your right to have an opinion. You are allowed to believe however you feel, and we're not going to stop you having that opinion. What is not tolerated on these forums is calling people "deluded", "blinded", "brainwashed". The Spirituality vs Skepticism guidelines (link) are very specific:

# Please always respect the religious beliefs of other members.
# No flaming, crude language or offensive behaviour

Calling someone brainwashed because they hold certain opinions you don't agree with is [a] not respecting them, [b] may be taken as flaming, and [c] is most definitely offensive. Express your disagreement with their beliefs in a non-offensive manner, thank you.

Regards, PA

I didn't forget: who better to translate ancient Hebrew than a Jew, right. I should have made my question clearer (my apologies for not being specific enough). The way you recommended the Tanakh made it sound like you had specific insight (ie, "for a better understanding of your Old Testament....". I was asking how the Tanakh provides a better understanding than any other translation of the Old Testament texts (they were the same, just grouped differently).

Thanks

Regards, PA

And as you found out....worded different in some verses.

But does "different" = "better"? Why is the Tanakh "better" than the ESV or NIV or ASV or KJV or.... you get the idea. Know what I mean. The chapters I read of the Tanakh were interesting, but I can't say I really learned anything wildly new and Faith-changing.

As you asked "does different = better"?

A "reason"? Most definitely, yes, I have ALWAYS had another reason to look at Christianity through the eyes of others who do not believe the same as me -- because there have ALWAYS been people with different beliefs (and wrong interpretations of Christianity I might add)... so with that in mind, I have always tried to put myself in other people's shoes and try to honestly understand why they think what they do.