Reading through one of the other threads, I came across this post. The questions, asked by exe11er and answered by IamsSon:

What country are you building these churches in? Uganda and Kenya

Do you give them seeds to plant? Chickens and a cow. They have seeds, most of them have little plots for coffee, beans, and other vegetables

Do you give them tools to use? Yes, work tools, farm tools, even some vans. We even buy the pastor a good library of Theological books

Do you teach them about aids? Uganda is the ONLY country in Africa that has seen a decrease in AIDS. They are NOT following the U.N.s educational program and are instead teaching astinence

Do you help build wells for clean water? Yes. Some of our church members are petroleum engineers and they have used their experience to help an orphanage dig water wells

Do you try and convert them to christianity? We share the plan of Salvation with them, so yes, we do.

See my church blieves that Christ wants His people to show Practical Love, not just know the meaning of the greek words for love.

Now, in response to this post, I saw half a dozen replies aimed at saying how evil the missionaries were for doing this. Indeed, someone said that these missionaries were only providing humanitarian aid so they can look like the "good guys" and thus make it easier to convert these people. Someone else stated that they were zealots and thus by definition would not allow any other form of belief to be practiced. Of course, these posts were only concentrating on the last question. It seems as if the first 5 questions were largely irrelevant to most people. Feeding the hungry, curing disease, building wells for drinking water, and more. I'd like to open this to discussion as a topic unto itself. Does the sixth question - that missionaries do provide the opportunity to hear the gospel of Jesus - negate the good done by the first five questions.

As one who came this far *raises thumb and forefinger gripped together* from becoming a missionary, reading into the matter, interviewing many missionaries, looking into organizations that utilize them, I'll give you my input: missionary work is largely about humanitarian aid. The opportunity is provided to hear the gospel, but it is by no means a requirement of receiving aid that one convert.

Yes, I've heard stories of "rice Christians" - where missionaries would not feed the starving unless they kissed the Cross. And I've heard of missionaries leaving blankets infected with Small Pox in areas that refused to convert, and I don't doubt that these things have never happened. A couple of generations ago, it might have even been commonplace, I don't know. But today, missionary work is virtually identical to the work done by other humanitarian organizations except that they provide the opportunity to hear the gospel in areas that don't usually have that opportunity.

A Christian doctor who goes overseas and spends his or her time helping the sick - men, women, children, anyone - does not have the chance to spread the gospel. They are missionaries who go there to perform a specific duty. They don't sit at the bedside of dying children and warn them of the dangers of hell. They cure the sick, and make comfortable those they can't cure. And to top it off, these Christian doctors willingly give up their six-figure salary, lifestyle, friends and family to do this act of extreme generosity.

During my research, I was reading about this one area in Africa (I'm sorry, I can't recall exactly where now. if anyone asks, I'll go back through my notes on it and get it for you) where missionaries would go. Before they depart, they would purchase a coffin to be used upon their death. The diseases which the locals were used to were so virulent to the missionaries that the expected life-span of a missionary was 12 months. The missionaries knew the dangers when they went there, knew they were basically signing their own death warrant, but because of their Faith in what they were doing, they willingly lay down their lives to bring humanitarian aid to this country.

So let's open the discussion now - the pros and cons of missionary work. Are modern-day missionaries really the monsters that they are being portrayed as, or are they victims of misconception and an unfortunate past?

Discuss

Regards, PA

In some ways Missionaries take advatage of the local people they are converting.

If i was starving and a catholic priest gave me food and said "worship God" I would do it. Mainly because what ever religion i had before didnt work...but here comes the catholics who give me free food.

So if you think about it these people only have two choices in what religion they want to follow. They can worship their old god who let them starve or the catholic god who just gave them food. the same thing would happen if a bunch of pagans fed them.

they never got a chance to really look into other religions...kind of how like kids who are raised catholic...they dont really have another choice.

The sad part of all that help the missionaries are giving to those people is that God and indoctrination always looms like shadow over it all. Westerner "civilizing" is still the major aspect the missionaries' work is based on. Those people accept Christianity because they have no choice. Without converting, they don't receive that help.

I would like to see missionaries help without brainwashing people. But that is not likely to occur.
Therefore, and overall, missions are wrong. My opinion.

I think missionaries are great and very brave for going out there and trying to help people but WHY try converting them. You could just give them the aid they need without mentioning god. If i went out to help some religious people who were starving and dying i would not go and try and make them change their belief or make them disbelive in god. You can give help without the need to talk about god to them.

There needs to be an Atheist missionaries to counter act the catholic ones imo. Or better yet a charity who just helps people in need and doesnt care what god they bow to.

In the past, this might have been the case - Rice Christians, for example. But today, converting is not a prerequisite for receiving aid. Most missionary work is humanitarian aid only. In countries that specifically outlaw the preaching of Christianity, this is especially true, and missionaries limit themselves to helping build up the people who are already Christian believers (teaching the Bible to the believers, for example). In other countries, they do set up a system for the locals to worship the Christian God, and they do point out to those they help that this is the case. And if people ask questions, they are more than willing to answer. But they do not preach to everyone they see. They don't sit at the bedside of dying children and tell them they'll burn in hell if they don't repent, for example. It is a complete fallacy to say they withhold aid just because they won't convert.

OF course, some could claim that just by telling them in the first place puts pressure on their culture. That argument perhaps has some merit to it. That's what this thread is for, I guess.

Chaoszerg - they tell others about the Christian God because they believe there's something more important than their physical well-being at stake. It's like when the paralytic was brought before Jesus (sorry, gotta use this bible reference), and Jesus looks at the guy, helpless and being carried by his friends. The paralytic was looking for a miracle. Rather than simply saying "you are healed, get up and walk", Jesus says "your sins are forgiven". Jesus went straight to the real problem taht this man had. Not his physical affliction, but the state of his sinful life. Jesus then healed the paralytic shortly thereafter. Perhaps it can be looked at as having the same outlook - they cure the physical afflictions, but are looking at something more than the physical.

Hope that helps

Regards, PA

So then, per your analogy, the paralyzed man was so because he had not yet relinquished the "sins" that this prophet brought to his awareness!? And rather than just heal him, he had to absolve him of these sins the man wasn't even aware existed as a construct, until JC said so?

There's no such thing as free healing?

Perhaps one should consider the FAQ provided by the "World Christian Missionaries Resources". Therein is contained evidence that, per this institutions policies, there is no free charity to this day. Way to set the example JC!

The contemporary example can be witnessed in Iraq. (This is not an indictment of all humanitarian aid agencies, requiring conversion as a requisite of aid. However that is a factor for many that proffer aid to such regions, and those are the ones under indictment in this discussion.)
Jesus in Baghdad - Why we should keep Franklin Graham out of Iraq. (*Note* Franklin Graham is the son of evangelist Billy Graham and is, on the record, anti-Islam! In a Muslim country, this is intelligent and insures a long life. Yeppers! )


*link fix*

I.F - the man was not a parylitic because of his sins. Unless one were to use the same reasoning and say the starving kid in Africa is starving because of sins he had done. Rather, while acknowledging the physical needs of the parylitic in healing him, Jesus focused on the spiritual needs of the man.

This is not too different from the modern-day missionary. They do much humanitarian work in dealing with the physical needs of the people. Chaoszerg asked why the need for the gospel, and that was my answer. I'll stick by my original statement - accepting Jesus is by no means a requirement of receiving aid from missionaries. Is there anything wrong with missionaries sharing their beliefs. Or does this sharing negate all the good works that they do do.

Regards, PA

PA this incorrect.





The Ugandas success came from the ABC approach which is.



Christian missinaries had nothing to do with the reduction of AIDs in Uganda. The Ugandain government did this on their own with the help of the UN. They have distributed millions of condoms.

And much to the consternation of the catholic church, I might add! (LINK) Terrorists by proxy. ("god" says die! Not us. Ohhh nooo. )

"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel land and sea to win one proselyte, and when he is won, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves." Matthew 23:15

Greek "Pharisaios" (far-is-ah'-yos); separatist, chosen, called out seperated' or "holy-one" which means seperate or special, chosen.

It's 50/50, PA. 50% "good for those trying to help Africa", and 50% "they would never be there if they couldn't save souls and feel better about themselves for doing it".
That's my view anyway: It is excellent that they try to help the armpits of the world, but kind of sad that religion has to enter it at all, that their motives could not be entirely altruistic, instead of just looking that way.

There are two types of missionary, lets not forget that.

The real Christian missionaries that go to poor countries and help those poor without wanting anything else in return that are truly godly people, who want to help people for no other reason than to stop suffering, and I salute them.

The missionaries that intrude on peoples culture, and try and convert people, and believe that there culture and faith is evil, and want to change that person to there way of belief are some of the most sick and disgusting evil people on earth. They bribe and force people into being converted by dangling food on a stick (not literally) and telling them its there’s if they “repent” and come to there ways, and like someone else said, yes anyone starving is going to agree with them if it means getting food for survival. The fact these people only go there to convert and use there suffering as a way of bullying them into it, is so immoral and low even Satan would turn his nose up at it, (if he existed of course)

What if the foot was on the other foot, and say America became poor and poverty stricken, and Muslims went to America and dangled food in front of them and said convert to Islam and its yours, would them same Christian missionaries be so happy about that? No, but its OK for them to do it.

I personally if I was in charge would lock up every religious person (of any faith) for the rest of there lives who used the suffering of others to convert people. It is sick and causes more damage than most of us are allowed to see.

Darkwind, my apologies on that oversight. As stated in my opening remarks, I was quoting exe11er and IamsSon with those opening questions. The opening quote came directly from that thread.

Interesting i have a neighbor that does missionary work brings the bible to other countrys calls it freedom of religous choice, and she was telling me she was going to some cave in china where they eat Yak have no refigeration or vegetables or water you have to walk for days for water... and how hard it would be on her she was gonna be there for two weeks eating putrid yak if she could stomache it....i thought to myself why don't they give them a refigorator clean water, seeds to grow a garden how would the 'freedom orf reliogus expression help them with immediate needs of survival and for a minute I felt that the people that were sending this young girl werre exploiting her too...It made me sad..i said nothing i love this girl what do you say????my friend and i were so sad after words i would want to help those people with water and food and sanitation..... I guess i don't understand the missionary thing.....

It is simple Sympa Sheri. Trust me I have come into contact with these people many times, and most of them are doing it for nothing else than them selves, most of them could not give a damn about the suffering children, they do it because they think it will give them a ticket into Heaven, and will give them more riches in the afterlife, they fear going to Hell so much that they do it to try and slime there way into Heaven, they think God is stupid, and that he/she is not going to notice there selfish intentions. Well they have got one hell (excuse the pun) of a shock coming to them when there time comes.

I have heard it from the horses mouth so to speak, they have told me they do what they are doing because they believe God will give them more in the here after if they turn more people to there faith.

That your friend is , by choice, entering into such a situation and has not yet pondered those valid points you raise in this thread, is part of the blind obedience some apply to their service to a faith. Perhaps you might broach the subject and bring up those points, next time you see them or perhaps in a letter while they are there, if they can receive correspondence that is. I attended a small village in Mexico many moons ago when I was a child, in service to a ministry and I'll tell you from personal experience that while this village was bereft of certain amenities we took for granted back home, the only thing that was brought to the inhabitants of the village were bibles and song books.

It fascinated me because I could not walk anywhere in this village, without little hands begging me for anything I might have in my hands at the time. Even a half empty bottle of Pepsi was sought out by the native children that would point and mimic drinking it, so as to communicate their request.

It was then that I realized our mission there wasn't to save these people from their earthly problems. It was rather to give them articles of hope so as to endure them, via the bibles (in Spanish) and the song books.
While there we built a chapel that was as basic as one might imagine and yet was superior to many of the homes surrounding it's property. Wooden benches, plywood walls, a basic altar, etc... So as to provide a sanctuary to the faith we had just introduced them to with the books we handed out. In effect we erected an higher power in the midst of this suffering village, without lending any evidence that that higher power had any interest in helping those outside it's confines, otherwise. (plumbing, upgrades to the hovels most people lived in, etc...)

However, if they wanted to look to where the new god lived, there it was! Pristine and better constructed than that which they went home to after hearing a sermon of hope, praying life gets better, and having the offering plate beseech them for what pennies they might afford to part with , in the process. That was many years ago and at this moment I wonder if that little chapel now has padded pews or stained glass windows. But mostly, I wonder if all the years of tithe's to the church has afforded any better living conditions for the faithful that are neighbors to the god that brings books, but not money, food, engineers, etc....

"It's a mystery" Some would say. No, not really. It's a business first, that has corrupted it's prophet to profit , in a tax exempt incentive that calls many a wolf to dawn sheep's frocks and call it holy.

I look around at the world as a whole, the suffering wrought by wars, disease, poverty, racism, etc... And I think of that book title ; "Living as if the god in all life mattered." And while the majority of the world population holds some form of faith, that mighty temples stand in ghetto's across the world, that starving people die on heat grates just down the street from a churches steps in the coldest of winters, is a sad testament to the will of the god we consecrate behind walls so as to oversee the misery in the yard. As if god belongs "there" and as such is worthy of praise, when in truth if we saw that image "here" , inside ourselves no one of us would die praying to be saved from what ails them, comforted only by the faith that after they perish they may know something better.

Only one problem with your theory Springhealed, Christians believe you can not earn a place in heaven no matter what good work you do. So that can not be there motive, back to the drawing board and get back to us.
Irish

Those must be the christians that don't believe in the bible. James 2:14-18, says otherwise. (among many other passages) Perhaps they should get back to the book and read/realize that believing that is not representative of the christian faith/philosophy .

Hi Irish. It isn’t a theory, it is a fact. I have worked with charities in the past, and have seen and heard it with my own ears and eyes. I think you need to read my first post in this thread, (Post #14) where I distinguish between real Christians from fake ones.

Although I am not a missionary in the same sense that we are discussing here I do a lot of philanthropic work within the community. As a past president of a national service club (not a religious based organization) our motto is “serving the communities greatest need” I believe that 99% of the people that do this kind of service to it from the heart and not for reward religious based or not, it takes a special type of person to give of their personal time to serve others less fortunate.
I personally feel that every human is in someway my brothers and sisters and therefore are family to me. I spend many hours helping the less fortunate in society because I feel it is the right thing to do. I do not judge them for living on the streets or there drug habits but if they really want to change there circumstances I am more than willing to show them a way they can achieve their goal some off you may interpret this as preaching. However I see it as sharing what has worked for me.
Irish

Irish. Just because you have an honest intention doesn’t mean there are not many out there that don’t have. I think its great you are in it for the right reasons, but I have personally experienced an unhealthy number of folk that aren’t, maybe I have just been unlucky so far?

I don’t know if you have it there, but here we have a religious programme here on a Sunday called Songs of Praise, and sometimes they have segments of the programme where they show the work of Christian groups, I used to like this programme, until I saw one such segment, these "missionaries" went to Africa to "help the poor" and while there they where putting down the natives “heathen religions” and making fun of there “primitive believes in spirits of the mountains and rivers“, and it was obvious they where there to convert them "from there sinful beliefs" I was so sickened by what I saw I never watched it again, these people might have been poor, but they were kind, tolerant, loved there families, and welcomed anyone into there village and shared the little they had with them, and were happy with there current beliefs, and in reality didn’t really need any other help than clean water.

I understand what you are saying and maybe I am naive in my belief that the majority of people are good and caring people who honestly want to make a difference in the world. Unfortunately people tend to bring with them their opinions along with their skills. But that should not hold anyone back from pitching in and helping whether it be building housing or digging potatoes.
I would encourage everyone here to get out there and make a difference whether it is through UNESCO or Uncle Bob’s church of the divine Turnip, just get er done the personal experience is worth far more than money or treasures in heaven. We should not make excuses for those that get it done and blame them for maybe having the wrong reasons because when they are up to there armpits in others despair perhaps they will find the right reason they are doing it and the job gets done.

Irish

I can't speak for other religions, but for Christian missionaries (in my church anyway), we DON'T "try to convert". We believe that God wants us to SHARE the Good News with everyone... so that is what we do. We simply TELL others about Jesus. It is then left up to the individual to decide whatever they want. I don't think that just telling someone about Jesus is an attempt to convert them. I could tell you about my sister but that's not an attempt to get you to marry her. LOL.


Someone earlier in this thread mentioned that Christians would do these nice things (helpful things) for the Africans just in order to gain their trust so they can convert them. That is so off the mark with the true feelings of our hearts that I can't help but get in here and shout "THAT AIN'T SO!". I'll elaborate....

We have members of my church going to Kenya (either next week or the week after, I can't remember). They do this every year (sometimes twice a year)... just volunteers. I could go if I wanted to, but don't because God hasn't called on me to do this (yet). But the people that do go, they try to help out the people there... it is meant as a nice gesture, caring for others that you see have a need. It's no different than the way a Christian would help a homeless person in their own hometown. It doesn't matter if that person has never heard of Christ or is already a devote Christian, we will help them as long as we see a need. ....But we also share the Good News with them, because that's the sole reason we're there. We believe God wants us to tell everyone about Jesus (just tell 'em)... no attempt to convert, just tell them so they've at least heard about God and can decide for themselves if they want to believe it or not. It's JUST NEWS that we want to share with them. ...And then helping them out is secondary since we see these people need help and sometimes we can provide it for them -- just a nice gesture in kindness, as Christians should do.

Those people who call themselves Christian missionaries that won't offer help until the people convert... they are not behaving the way God wants them to (the way the Bible tells us to behave). They don't see the error of their ways, obviously. As far as me and the other Christians I know, we believe those kinds of people are doing wrongly -- not judging them, just recognizing that they're not following God's instructions. We don't look down on them, but pray for them instead... pray for God to help them see there's a better way.

I'm just trying to point out that just because some groups go about things the wrong way, it doesn't mean all the rest of us are in the same category as them... even though we may appear to do similiar things. And for the ones that are following God's instructions, we are doing just that -- doing what God has told us to do.

Hi ragus

Do the people at your church also remind the African people they are "telling the good news too" about the horrible and unimaginable pain and suffering they will suffer in Hell if they don’t act on the "good news".

I am not suggesting that they do that, I am simply asking, because many of the people I talk about say the same thing to me, "we are just spreading the good word" but often hide the fact they have also said to them that if they don’t come to there way of belief or thinking they will be in torment eternally in hell. Which is not "spreading the good news" its emotional bullying, and using the suffering of others to benefit there own agenda.

The people at my church share with the Africans only what is good. We don't think that sharing the Good News means telling people they will go to hell and be tortured. The Bible does not tell us to say that to people. It tells us to go out and tell people that Jesus died to cover our sins. THAT is the good news (THAT is what God told us to tell others). We tell them that by accepting God's gift of salvation, their sins are forgiven and they will spend eternity in heaven. ...Now if someone, out of their own curiosity, asks "well what happens if I don't accept the gift?", then we will tell them about the alternative, which is hell. But we don't push hell at them (that is scary). It is our goal to share the news about Christ...about what he did for us, as that is what God told us to do. And that's not scary.

Since God didn't tell us to say anything about hell and scaring people with that, why would we go around telling everyone that? Unless they ask, of course. If they ask, then I feel we should answer their question with honesty (according to what we believe).

I know there ARE some people that go around saying, "if you don't repent and accept salvation, you're going to hell". I don't think it's a very nice thing to tell anyone they're going to hell. Christians are taught to be kind and loving to all people.... so why would we judge and tell people they're going to hell? My church and I believe that Christians should ONLY share that which is good (the Good News). And that's what we do.

We do sometimes (in addition to talking to them) give out small Bibles (when we can) so that people can read and study ALL of God's Word. Reading that, they will eventually learn much more than we've initially told them. Because, no, it wouldn't be fair to only tell bits and pieces and not somehow inform people of everything. We don't push the bad stuff when we first introduce the idea of God/Jesus to them. Our intention is to do just what God told us to do -- share the Good News. God never told us to tell people they're going to hell.

In other words, it is not our aim to scare people into accepting Christ. I don't think that's what God had in mind.

What I don’t understand is why do religious people (not just Christians) need to be told and to learn how to be loving and kind? In most people it just comes natural, and they don’t need a book to teach them how to be good, believe it or not, non religious people can also be good kind and caring people also.

To be honest, and I will be frank with you, before the "Missionaries" go out there, they know the poor are going to wonder and eventually find out about what the "missionaries" will believe in or tell them about what happens to evil non believing Christians in hell, so it’s the same as going there and telling them about what they believe, and what happens if they don’t also believe, so its as good as going there and converting them with fear. I personally believe you have contradicted your self, and just tried to carefully gloss over there main reasons for going there, sure many might actually want to help the poor folk there, I cant judge them for that as I don’t know them as individuals, but they are going there to convert its so obvious, and I think when we don’t gloss things over, and see it through clear glass its obvious.

If I was a Christian id want to help people have better lives, id keep my beliefs to my self, as I am there to help people, not to recruit more members.

EXCELLENT post..well said...If everyone just kept their faiths to themselves...no one would slam them as often.....
And you are right...we dont need a book to tell us how to be good...I know lots of athiests that are good kind loving people..that live great lives..prolly better than SOME religious folk....my life doesnt come with a manual...I KNOW whats right and whats wrong...

Thanks Mom always refreshing to see good old fashioned common sense

Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?

-Sogoyewapha, (Red Jacket), Seneca 1752-1830

I can't speak for other missionaries, but the ones from my church are not going to Kenya in order to convert. We go over there to share the Good News with them, which we believe is what God has told us to do. Then that's it. The Kenyans are left to make their own decision. If they convert, it's UP TO THEM. Converting is not anything we make them do (or make them not do). So no, we do not go over there to covert anyone. Even if none of them came to Christ, we will still be doing what God told us to do -- THAT is why we go. God did not tell us to convert anyone. He just said to share the news with them. That's what we do.

As far as helping, yes, since we are caring people, we often help the Kenyans where we see a need that we are capable of helping with.

I agree that being good comes naturally to most people as a dominant behavior (whether a believer or non-believer). I've never thought of the Bible as being something someone needed JUST TO LEARN HOW to be good. Most of us know how to be that way all on our own (or as a child, we got guidance from our parents, whether with or without the Bible in mind). I've always thought of the Bible as an ADDITIONAL source of information on good behavior, especially specifics on what God thinks about it. Giving people a Bible, is not so people can learn to be good (most already know how to be good)... giving them a Bible is so that they can learn a lot of details on a variety of different subjects... but mostly to learn about God. Even though there are people that already know how to be good, there are people that have never heard about God or Jesus. That's the purpose of giving them a Bible.



Well I AM a Christian and I DO want to help people have better lives. When our missionaries go to Kenya, we don't go over there to help do things for them (although we do), we go over there SPECIFICALLY to share God's Word. In other words, God tells us to share the news with them... so that is why we go. While there, doing that, we ALSO help them do other things. See? Helping them is not the main reason we go (although I tend to look at sharing the Good News with them to be the same thing as helping them).

"Recruiting more members" most certainly is NOT what sharing the Good News is all about. I feel sorry for anyone that thinks that. It's just not true... and if that's the reason they reject Christ, then that's a very sad reason to reject him. Christians don't care about the numbers. We care about doing what God tells us to do (we are faithful to His requests and instructions.... or try to be anyway). That's why we put so much effort into it... because WHO we are doing it for -- not ourselves, not our numbers, but for what God wants.

ragus

You might be able to convince your self of what you want to believe, but its not going to pull the wool over my eyes. They are going there in the hope that the "primitive natives can be saved"

They are trying to sell them something.

You have conveniently and very predictably ignored the very thing I was trying to explain. And I doubt you will ever see the point I am trying to make.

I am sure that you are a Christian, and I am sure that you genuinely want to help poor folk, but many and going on what you have said about your church want to do nothing more than save them selves from an eternity in hell that they have been taught all there lives.

LOL. Well, SURE! I never said the missionaries didn't have HOPE! That's kinda silly not to have hope after sharing the Good News with 'em.



I'm sorry you feel that way. I read your post at least three times while in the process of writing my reply, to make sure I was responding to every point you made. I didn't think I had missed (or in your choice of words "ignored" ) anything, but if I truly have missed something forgive me. I didn't intend to.



No you're wrong there -- we believe we're ALREADY SAVED. We don't HAVE to tell others about Christ in order to save ourselves.

We have ALREADY accepted God's gift of salvation -- we are saved.

We only wish to tell others about the Good News BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT GOD HAS TOLD US TO DO. How many times have I got to repeat that part? ...We're just being "good children" to our Father, by doing what we are told.

No ragus you have been brainwashed into believing that God is a bully and evil, and you have convinced your self that if you grovel and obey to that (human invented) evil God's demands, that he will give you more smarties in the after life, and not toss (you) his own child into a burning lake of fire.

Now ragus get ready for this lol.....


Now this is just hypothetical but if your god asked you to kill lets say 3 certain people even though these 3 people had not done really anything wrong if he asked you to kill them because it would bring eternal happiness to everyone or that it would save everyones souls and give them a place with god WOULD you do it. Now before you start saying god would not ask that it is just a hypothetical question.

Actually, no, YOU believe that God is a "bully and evil". I do NOT believe that at all. Quite the contrary, in fact, I believe God is loving and good.



No, YOU think that Christians "grovel". Christians don't have to "grovel" with the Lord, my dear. I do, however, obey my Father... just as most children are expected to do!



Again, quite the contrary... God doesn't demand evil. And He is not "human invented". Just because you choose to not know Him, doesn't mean He isn't real. You might choose to not know my wife either, but that doesn't mean she doesn't exist. Those close to God, know He exists. Those who aren't... well that sort of speaks for itself.



God's not going to toss me into a lake of fire because He has given me salvation... I accepted it. And that is ALL I ever had to do in order to get salvation. All this "grovel" talk you mention has nothing to do with salvation. Haven't you ever read the Bible? (I'm not asking if you believe it's true, just asking if you've read it).

Are hypothetical really necessary, given that train of thought was exhibited by the automaton sadists at the helm of the crusades and inquisition!? Abdicating free thought to follow orders , exterminate thousands and then avoid responsibility for it by claiming it was god's will!

The hight of arrogance in this age of Inet and mass communications especially, is to think that someone hasn't heard of the christian faith, and also that anyone should have to! Overt conversion is proof there is no respect for anyone not christian, save they are presumed viable targets for conversion. When they don't concede that overt trespasser takes smug satisfaction in believing those persons will burn in the hell of the zealots faith, and so feel vindicated they at least tried to "save" them beforehand. And the good news would be if indigenous people of foreign lands exterminated the vipers that seek to destroy cultures because they imagine the whole world of persons must convert to one ideal of god or suffer and die. What's not to love about that kind of godly ideal.... If your a sadist.

Hypothetical, yes.

I don't like your example, but I'd have to say being that I obey what God commands, then yes, I would do what he told me to do.

BUT.... like you pointed out already, I don't believe God would ask me to do such a thing because in His Ten Commandments, He tells me "Thou shalt not kill". So, I don't believe your example is a good one.

You are, basically, just asking if I would do ANYTHING God asked me to do, no matter what. And my answer is YES. I trust Him fully.

Sorry i had to use that type of question since if i said would you jump of a cliff if god asked you too i knew you would say yup!! .

God would never ask anyone to kill for him. Just check the OT, for proof that's true.

No Ragus I don’t believe God is evil, and I believe God not to be a sadist. I believe God loves everyone and doesn’t care what one believes. He/she/it cares more about what others do than what they think. My God doesn’t have a ego, so doesn’t care what name his children give to him/her/it or how they worship him/her/it, or even if they don’t worship him/her at all. Anyone that seeks to be worshiped is a small minded person, and anyone that believes that God desires to be worshipped by its own children with a wrathful anger in my view is responsible for slandering God as a small minded bigot. I see Gods mind as so large it is way beyond yours or my understanding, and there is room in it for any good and tolerant belief system that is a force for good and not destruction.

If you or anyone else that believes that God has rules that are “you either believe in this or that, otherwise you can burn in hell“ you do not believe in a loving and kind God, you believe in a sadistic bully that you fear and cower from. No amount of glossing over or spin is going to change that reality and fact, you can dress it up all you like, and ignore the uncomfortable parts and just continue to blindly believe what your power hungry church leaders have told you to believe, but a God that seeks worship from his or hers own children or they can be tortured for all eternity in fire is at the very least cruel, and about as unloving as one could get.

When you have a realisation Ragus that God is me, you, the trees, the earth the universe, and everything, you praise God by just loving and living life, and allowing others to do so in peace, you have no reason to fear God as a tyrant or to convert others that harm no one, because you know God is not going to punish itself for itself not worshiping itself.

I love God, and I can not love something I fear.

A beautiful , reasonable truth. And yet there are texts that say to love god is to fear god. So what does that get us, between those that see it as you do and those others that believe love=fear!?

Im fr, that had to be the saddest story i have read, i can't shake the image of the begging children....I can't help but wonder who decides the help that one needs...I will say some 'faiths do focus on helping if you are a member of course as the mormons they will do anything for a fellow moron...but that isn't the standard...I can't help but think that a loving diety would want his children to survive not to starve and die from things that can be helped...it is very upsetting to me to know that outside of america many go hungry and little to nothing is done.....

Hey you're the one that said it. If you'll read every single of one of my posts on religion in these forums (not just this thread) you will not see anything that even hints that I would think God is evil. I have always said just the opposite. That "God is evil" thing was YOUR idea. I was just throwing it back where it came from.



We differ here. While I also believe God loves everyone, I also believe that He DOES give a hoot about what each of us believes. I think, as a LOVING God, that caring about what we believe is part of His love (love = caring).



We differ here too. I believe in the Bible (which I believe to be God's Word)... and in the Bible God says that even our thoughts are just as sinful as actual acts. So yes, I DO believe God cares just as much what people do as what they think.

Please know I'm not trying to argue with you... just pointing out differences in our beliefs. I don't agree with yours, which would make sense that you don't agree with mine. It's kind of a fact of life, different people having different opinions.



Well your name-calling isn't nice nor necessary but I'll overlook it and forgive you for it. My God doesn't have an ego either. He seeks our love and friendship and returns the same to me. Worshipping God is just a show of respect toward my Creator. It makes me happy to worship Him and show my love for Him in that way. I do it because I want to. It also shows God that I do not worship any other gods. I'm letting Him know that I choose Him.

And being that He is my father, I obey Him just as children are expected to obey their parents. I don't know if you have children or not, but I have two. I wouldn't want them to have the idea that they can call me "small minded" or having an "ego" just because I tell them to mind me, to follow my rules.



I agree with that.



I disagree that God will allow "any belief system" (even with a force for good).... because God has made clear there is only one truth.



Not so. Because God has given everyone a CHOICE. God doesn't send people to hell, people do! God is pretty much standing there with an open door to heaven and basically calling everyone into that door (out of love for them!). Those that choose not to enter that door are in fact choosing FOR THEMSELVES to enter the door to hell. They can't blame God for that -- it is their own doing!

People can't say God is not loving and kind when He is calling us to walk into the door of salvation, which would save us from hell. That IS love!
People choosing to reject salvation are simply rejecting God's love.



No I don't. YOU said it, so this is evidently what YOU believe. I believe that God is extremely loving and kind (He is the opposite of a bully)... and because of this, I have no reason to fear or cower from Him. As I said, I've already accepted His gift of salvation... so I don't fear going to heaven. I've already got a one-way ticket there and it has no expiration date. I'm set. And I'm darn happy about it. This is where I WANT to be. I'm not afraid, I'm proud of it. I can't wait to get to heaven and spend eternity with God. No one would choose to spend eternity with someone they were afraid of. I LOVE GOD... He is MY FRIEND. I go to HIM for COMFORT, PEACE, LOVE, HELP, and many other things. So you've really got that wrong -- I do not cower from God. I have a close relationship with Him, which is my own choosing..because I love Him and I know He loves me.



You do an awful lot of assumption, which I might add is extremely incorrect.... so you might wish to stop doing that... 'cause you're only putting your foot in your mouth.

No, I have never "blindly believed" anything. I have faith, yes, but I also have beliefs based on a tremendous amount of facts/reality. As for "power hungry church leaders", there's no such thing in my church (or any others that I've attended in my lifetime). My current pastor is one of the least "power hungry" people I know. He is just a Christian like me and loves me, similar to God's love. And all he wants to do is help teach others all the things he knows about God (as he spent years in college learning in theology, etc.). He is a humorous man, a loving man, a kind hearted man, a true Christian -- not anything like the "power hungry" ideal that you've so wrongly assumed. And furthermore, he has NOT told me to believe anything. He only teaches what God tells us... and leaves the decisions up to the people. There's no force, there's no brainwashing, there's nothing like that. Just sharing information and letting others decided for themselves what is right or not. That's extremely fair. And I have chosen to believe what I believe, not due to any "power hungry church leaders" but due to a miriad of other things, many of them which occurred in my younger years before I ever knew the pastor I listen to today. My pastor is not hungry for power... he is a very humble man. You'd be very red in the face (for saying what you did) if you met him... because it would all too evident to you then, that you've labeled him wrong.

How about putting a stop to the childish name-calling you've resorted to... and let me and my Christian beliefs that you so disagree with alone.



Well first of all, you don't seem to realize how many DIFFERENT ways one can praise God. Yes, I already DO praise God by loving and living life (as well as telling Him thank you for those blessings). What do YOU do when someone gives you something nice? Most people say "thank you"... and this is no different than when I tell God "thank you" for His blessings/gifts. I also give Him that thanks by singing to Him and other such acts of praise and worship. All the different ways are just acts of thanks, a show of my extreme appreciation... my acknowleding that He is very special to me. I do it because I want to.... not due to any fear.



Why do you think I do? God is MY FRIEND. He is good to me. I don't fear Him. I love Him.

Before I make my post, could I ask please that you all stop this discussion concerning Christians being brainwashed. It is completely unnecessary to the topic, not to mention a wild generalization, and is potentially inflammatory. Thank you, PA

Now, to the post at hand - I'm sure there are missionaries that go out there just to make themselves look good in god's eyes (as Springhealed Jack suggests). And I'm sure there are missionaries that go to areas bringing only bibles and praise books (as I.F. related in his story). It is unfortunate that there are people such as this. From my research into missionary work, this would be a vast minority. In complete contrast to Springhealed Jack's interview with a missionary, my interviews (plural, not singular), indicated that the reason they went on mission in the first place was to bring humanitarian aid to those who need it most, and to share the news of Jesus. They did this for Love - Love for GOd, and Love for their fellow man (neighbour) (sound familiar anyone? *cough 2 greatest commandments cough*)

The original example I used of a doctor who gives up his 6-figure salary to become a missionary - they are there to heal the sick, simple as that. They don't hold the hands of children dying and tell them to repent or burn. Or to use another example, a builder/laborer also gives up their day job. They didn't have a massive salary to begin with, but they still give up their income to go overseas to rebuild settlements, dig wells, and the such. Being able to "preach" isn't even a pre-requisite to being a missionary (you think it would be if they were only going there to convert, right) A... a.... m.. .m... ma.. man w... w.... with a s.... severe st... st.... stutt..... stutter can go over and be a missionary (I'd hate to be the native who he's preaching to *sarcasm*), help the populace.

As ragus says though, missionaries do go over to share the gospel. I think the idea that missionaries withhold aid if the native's don't convert is a modern-day misconception, perhaps based on events of the past (Rice Christians), but something that just does not happen in the modern landscape. Converting is not a requisite for aid.

That said, I found chaoszerg's original response to this thread the most honest answer of all, so far.

You know when people claim their God/religion tells them to kill??? My computer does the same thing...

personally missionairiesjust bug me, they come out of nowhere and bug you about joining their social group or something of the sort. I just tell them to let me be myself and they start going histarical about "salvation" and "eternal damnation" then I close the door. I think they just need to learn to let people be who they want to be. I almost sued someone for not leaving my property about the entire escapade.

ragus you are never going to see what I am saying, as you are dodging what it is I am saying. But fair enough its not like I have not seen it a millions times before.

I am not saying God is evil, I was suggesting that if you believe God would send anyone to Hell for not worshiping him and loving him, then that is believing in an evil God, its what you seem failing to understand.



And do you not think a God with such a huge mind would not also see and know that and understand it? To think otherwise indicates you believe he has a small mind.



I was talking about the God some people believe in, or how some people slander God as small minded, and wrathful, and a cruel tyrant. I was not calling you them things, just stating what some people believe God to be, I think you read me wrong. Ill forgive you though.



And someone who doesn’t recognise him (an invisible God) and doesn’t offers "him" love and friendship he stamps his feet and becomes angry and tosses them into a burning lake of fire, id say they are characteristic of someone with an ego. And someone who is spiteful.





But if your two children refused to worship you would you allow them to burn in a lake of fire for all eternity? See this is what you refuse to acknowledge, its all well and good using the obeying an earthly fathers rules, with the heavenly fathers rules, but there is a difference between obeying your fathers rules and getting a smack on the ass, and being burnt in agony for all eternity, do you see how that argument doesn’t work now?. If anyone father or otherwise threw there child into a burning pit, they would be considered evil and cruel and vindictive.