Ragus,
I'm not into "logic-only" things. I married a Cajun girl, logic is not a big thing in my house.
But what I am saying when I say I need proof to devote my life to something is that some may be able to take that leap on faith alone, and usually I applaud them for their faith, but I cannot. I grew up in a devoutly rabid Christian household and extended family and the image of God I was taught, and the image of God my own reading has shown me, is just not something I can accept without some concrete answers which, unless God has an e-mail address or a cell number, just cannot be answered. My need for knowledge outweighs any possibility of faith. I have measured my own willingness to believe, attempted that relationship with God, if you will, but it just fell short of what I need to jump.
And even curiosities are useful. As an aspiring writer I pick up ideas where ever I can, so this board is like a candy store...
or a crackhouse, depending on who replies.

The end of my drinking habit, or just one of those weird brain things (i.e Shadow People).

Revelation 22:3 "And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him."



Genesis 2:2 "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done."


If that does not make you realize that we are not talking about the God(Elohyim) of the Bible(Torah), then perhaps this will "sink your boat".

Consider the argument: GOD KNOWS THE FUTURE.

Genesis 6:7
So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

If God knew that his race would be polluted by the wickedness of half-breeds, then why was he sorry? The actualy word that appears is Nacham(naw-kham) which means to regret.
Can God regret? Or does He see the regrets (which are a proper result of mistakes) which He makes and keeps Himself in an apethetic state of denial until He makes the mistake?
If God is in the past, present, future, is there such a thing as "when" he makes the mistakes or regrets His actions, if you will? Will you argue this point and defend your views which may be contrary to this stark truth? If you do, I will assume that you are not refering to the God of the Bible.

This is just something to think about. I am not making an argument. However, I had you consider an argument in light of the presented scripture. Does it make sense that you see your regrets(which result from mistakes)ahead, and still make them?

No we choose to remove the blinkers that have dominated our society for thousands of years. for the first time in millenia people are trying to view the world without the preconcieved notions and stereotypes that organised religion forces upon people.

We do not limit ourselves, we remove the limits that we have struggled under for centuries.

At last man has grown of an age that they no longer need an imaginary friend to walk side-by-side to help combat the gremlins in the closet.

At last we have the ability and the wish to be our selves. To commit oursrelves to something. We have the courage to try an action with the knowledge that if it goes wrong we can nopt blame it on god. At last we as human beings have decided to take responsibility for our own actions.

For the first time in millenia the human race has began to grow beyond the boundaries imposed by the priests whos goal for centuries has been to control.

At last the various churches no longer have a strangle hold on the worlds growth and Creativity, and Growth at last have come to our hands........

Hey you could always be hallucinating.

Well I was using the example of if he really did see an angel face to face. He's saying basically that "seeing is not believing" in his case... as he would ALSO have to have certain questions answered. Now THAT is what I call stubborn.

For most people, seeing is believing.

Like when I saw my baby daughter born, I believed she was real and that she was mine. I didn't have to ask if she was really there or if she was mine. I saw -- and I believed. I knew my eyes didn't deceive me... that what I was seeing was real, not a hallucination.

Okay maybe that was a bad example, but you get my drift.

Here's another one, say if you saw bigfoot walk past you in the forest. You KNEW what you saw, in spite of everyone's skeptical reaction when you told them about it. Is that a better example or am I getting worse?

I have some friends who as teenagers used some rather interesting and illicit substances. And after a few hours of talking with them you would soon come to understand that seeing is not always infallible....

Ahem hem, hem....potheads?

I think it would be rather indiscreet of me to either confirm or deny that.

Hey just quickly, I saw my angel when I was asleep and lucid dreaming.. I mean I summoned him during sleep.. so for me it wasnt because I was sitting around smoking weed you know..

Basically if you arnt sure about angels.. lucid dream and summon your own to find out.. I would be curious just to see what others get from the experience..

I would astral project or lucid dream if it wasn't so damn hard.

May I ask what your method is?

I mainly just tell myself that I will realise Im dreaming the next time I dream as Im going to sleep. Or I just think about it lots during the day so that when I sleep I think about it by habit and understand Im dreaming.

The best time Ive found for telling yourself to remember that you are dreaming is after the night sleep when you wake up and are just kinda lying around in bed dreaming.. its around that time that if you can remember and give alittle thought into knowing that you will recognise that you are dreaming you will remember that last thought as you enter the dream. If your good at it you can tell yourself as you first fall asleep and then about 5 hours later you will go lucid but its easier if you are going into dreams quickly which happens after hours sleep(You go into REM sleep quicker). So thats an easier time to try go lucid... when you just know that if you fall back asleep you will dream.. at that time tell yourself you will recognise when you are dreaming and it seems to just pop into your head when you begin to dream next.

Its an oldie but a goodie.

People see what they want to see. It doesn't matter if there is anything their. If you concentrate hard enough i am sure you could summon Santa Claus and then watch him line dance with the elves. Thou watch out for Rudolph as i hear he is a bit of a flasher

No I could feel the difference in the energy coming from this character and it was very full on. I also didnt really expect what I got because I was really shocked and when I did actually speak I had like 1000 voices, which was a new one for me hey and it scared me heaps. So I went to have a chat with an angel but in the end I was speechless.

Congratulaions on what you believe (and it may well be true.) But i could not accept the word of anyone in such a matter.

On another note however i have been working on my meditation for quite a while and perhaps soon i will come face to face with an angel. I don't think it would make me rethink my lack of faith though............

I think a few here can and would say different.....no disrespect to your wife.


Not arguments.....debates.

So it was OK for you to make a "firm statement" but not someone else?



Just as you made a statement to the effect that angels did exist.



The exact same thing could be said about (off topic) the evolution vs creation debate. Just because you have so called 'evidence' in the Bible does not make it a fact.



One word for this: Pareidolia

I'd believe that. I've told my mother-in-law many many many times to stop streaking!

How about our beleifs create what we see.....

I believe I already covered that.

No it's only christians that see Jesus in their omelette or in any cloth or something.

I never tie my imagination to religious beliefs.

As i said earlier, you see what you want to see.

No not really.

ah yes, the holy omlette.

god hath blessed thyne eggs, and now ye shall not covet any other omlette.....

You dont always see what you want to see. Like I wanted to see a nice peaceful looking angel in white or whatever, so that I could have a nice long chat but in the end I didnt want to talk at all. Also my angel had hollowed out eyes which was not something I wanted to see either because it scared me which is why I was shocked. I agree somewhat that our beliefs can create what we see but its just sometimes you can dream details which seem to come from nowhere and which arnt things you had believed before. Like I dreamt of heaven once and it was just basically a massive lion sitting in the clouds under a rainbow... but before that dream I had never really given heaven that fluffy clouds thought... if anything heaven for me was near a spacestation with lam not a lion. And now I.. like lions and rainbows because of that dream and only afterwards can you believe I found out that the rainbow is kinda a christian symbol(well I think it is). The reason why I look at that dream for instance as different was because it had details I wouldve never of thought of.. Like the rainbow splitting into serpents which ran down my arms. Now I honestly had never thought of that one or had that belief in my head to create that dream. And I started to look into Kundalini after that dream you know. And now I guess I believe in Kundalini too.

Yes you do....it is in human nature to do so.

I posted this link already in this thread: Pareidolia

It has some links at the bottom to some examples of "Pareidolia"

Zandore I am aware of that. But I have never tied my imagination to religion. Others will, but I think clearly.

So you know what is going on in your sub-conscious mind?

No but I know what I see.

No one knows what they see. Have you seen the "Charlie Chaplin Mask" optical illusion. You know it's the inside - concave - side of a mask but your brain just will not let you see it as concave. You cannot always believe your eyes. It's the basis of most ghost "sightings".

If you don't believe then you will try to look at a collection of smudges as a collection of smudges. If you do believe you will see the face of Jesus in a muddy old cloth so I get your point.

With regards to the existance I can definitely and categorically say that IMO they do not exist because I don't believe in god.

I can also say that science has proved that we just don't know.

One thought is that if angels are god's messengers for us or protectors of us this does seem to suggest that god himself can't actually be bothered doing it himself and seems to delegate rather a lot. If they are supposed to be a part of him then it seems a little pointless going to all the effort of giving them names and harps and clouds to fly on.

As with all topics on this thread the actual question is "Does god exist?". That can really be the only question in a "spirituality vs skepticism" forum. It doesn't really take much of an answer for an atheist - same as "Is Jesus God?" or "Who is the Antichrist?".

A final point with regards to your having to ask for god's help before he'll give it. Wouldn't that suggest that god is only willing to help those who believe in him meaning that he is actually not caring for us but just trying to get as many people as possible to believe in him perhaps in some wager he has with Allah, Odin (not doing so well lately), Ganesha, and the Jade Emperor.

removed