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verax-acis
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Not that this matters but I found it interesting. Apparently even the god Apollo does what JESUS says.

The Oracle of Apollo at Delphi was a cornerstone of greek worship. It is where the god Apollo communicated with a prophetess on a regular basis giving advise to kings and nobles for centuries. The history of the oracle is fascinating and studying it shows the greeks didn't just make up stories to live by. They were in fact reacting to unusual events and occurrences in their environment.


" But these wonder-days declined and with them the flow of Apollo's inspiration. His oracles functioned less often and finally, by the 4th century A.D., when the Roman emperor Theodosius ordered all oracles closed and forbade divination, the god had already withdrawn. When the emperor Julian asked how he could help restore the Pythia to power, Apollo replied: "Tell the emperor that my hall has fallen to the ground. Phoibos [Apollo] no longer has his house . . . nor his prophetic spring; the water has dried up" (Fontenrose, p. 353). Earlier, when Emperor Augustus had asked: "Why is the Oracle silent?" he was told: "A Hebrew boy, a god who rules among the blessed bids me leave this house . . . So go in silence from my altars" (op. cit., p. 349)."

LINK.



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SpringhealedJack
What the........... hmm.gif
chaoszerg
QUOTE(SpringhealedJack @ Jul 29 2006, 07:41 PM) [snapback]1287595[/snapback]

What the........... hmm.gif


there are 3 of these????? huh.gif

Edit: Ok the others are gone now lol.
Imaginary Friend
What if it wasn't a matter of Apollo being usurped by jesus. What if Apollo became jesus!?
verax-acis
QUOTE(Imaginary Friend @ Jul 29 2006, 07:01 PM) [snapback]1287613[/snapback]

What if it wasn't a matter of Apollo being usurped by jesus. What if Apollo became jesus!?


To me it wouldn't matter....

I have often entertained the idea that the greek seers were detecting the same things the hebrew seers were. If you look closely at the gods there are striking similarities in both the greek and hebrew tradition. I think it's hypocritical to think only the hebrew seers were authentic and the rest of the world just made up stories. Nevertheless GOD chose to magnify the hebrew tradition (probably for reasons of practicality). I also suspect GOD supressed mono theism in every culture except Israel so no other monotheistic name would remain. Otherwise you have the Mars, Jupiter problem.

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verax-acis
I also think this is the best description of how prophetic vision works., that I have ever
read.


Plutarch, an initiate and careful biographer, explained how the Pythia transmitted the inspiration of Apollo:

the prophetic priestesses are moved [by the god] each in accordance with her natural faculties . . . As a matter of fact, the voice is not that of a god, nor the utterance of it, nor the diction, nor the metre, but all these are the woman's; he [Apollo] puts into her mind only the visions, and creates a light in her soul in regard to the future; for inspiration is precisely this. -- Moralia, "The Oracles at Delphi," V, 397d

Plutarch also rejected the idea that the god in any way possessed the body of the prophetess or that there was mediumship involved. For him the Pythia's inspiration was her reception of divine force, for she had been trained to receive "the inspiration without harm to herself " (op. cit., 438c), and could receive it safely only when she was rightly prepared. An example is often cited of an ill-prepared priestess who was forced against her will and better judgment to enter the adyton and respond to a questioner. She gave a response, but suffered acutely, collapsed, and died a few days later.

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Pappzy
Why whould a 'god' bow down to a man?Something fishey down the old corn shack... laugh.gif
zandore
QUOTE(verax-acis @ Jul 29 2006, 02:37 PM) [snapback]1287592[/snapback]
Not that this matters but I found it interesting. Apparently even the god Apollo does what JESUS says.

Does this mean that with lighting rods on Christian church spires mean that God does what Thor says hmm.gif
mako
grin2.gif grin2.gif grin2.gif The Apollo cult was one of the "Sun God/Resurrected God" cults that the 2nd century copied in creating their little godling. And if you are taking the word of a woman that was high on natural chemical fumes, then you have to accept that the God Jupiter/Jove gave that "oracle" the ability to fortell the future....you an't have it just one way! grin2.gif devil.gif w00t.gif grin2.gif yes.gif
verax-acis
QUOTE(mako @ Jul 30 2006, 03:10 PM) [snapback]1288364[/snapback]

grin2.gif grin2.gif grin2.gif The Apollo cult was one of the "Sun God/Resurrected God" cults that the 2nd century copied in creating their little godling. And if you are taking the word of a woman that was high on natural chemical fumes, then you have to accept that the God Jupiter/Jove gave that "oracle" the ability to fortell the future....you an't have it just one way! grin2.gif devil.gif w00t.gif grin2.gif yes.gif


I've read the minimalist chemical explanations and I was not impressed. Even if it was chemically induced it still does little to explain the coincidence. It's like Moses and the red sea. Winds have been proven to have the ability to part the sea at times but it's an awful coincidence that the winds struck at the exact time Moses raised his staff.

You see GOD is not unnatural. In fact GOD is the most natural existing being. When people label an event supernatural it is often a unfair label considering no one has clearly defined where natural and supernatural separate. If supernatural means "the things science has yet to figure out" then at one point Troy was supernatural. At one point the Hittites were supernatural. At one point bacteria was supernatural.

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Imaginary Friend
The Oracle of Delphi or "Pythia", inhaled sulphur fumes during her trance episodes. Sulphur is a narcotic and as such can induce hallucinations. Some cultures were aware of the corollary. i.e. chemicals and visions, however even then religion was used as a tool to enslave the masses to their own ignorance and consequent superstitious natures, so this knowledge was also something forbiden to any but the initiated of the mysteries.

Of course, the Greek seers were not the only one's in our history to resort to chemical inducements. "The sight", as alluded to in the Arthurian/Morganna myth, was allegedly induced by an ethnogenic tincture. And even the bible speaks of seers being given something to put in their mouth, before their recounting of sacred visions. And jesus even said the kingdom of heaven is within. What if he was talking about that channel which is opened under these circumstances!? And of course, native peoples in this country have a history of religious rituals involving Peyote.
verax-acis
QUOTE(Imaginary Friend @ Jul 31 2006, 03:28 AM) [snapback]1288960[/snapback]

The Oracle of Delphi or "Pythia", inhaled sulphur fumes during her trance episodes. Sulphur is a narcotic and as such can induce hallucinations. Some cultures were aware of the corollary. i.e. chemicals and visions, however even then religion was used as a tool to enslave the masses to their own ignorance and consequent superstitious natures, so this knowledge was also something forbiden to any but the initiated of the mysteries.

Of course, the Greek seers were not the only one's in our history to resort to chemical inducements. "The sight", as alluded to in the Arthurian/Morganna myth, was allegedly induced by an ethnogenic tincture. And even the bible speaks of seers being given something to put in their mouth, before their recounting of sacred visions. And jesus even said the kingdom of heaven is within. What if he was talking about that channel which is opened under these circumstances!? And of course, native peoples in this country have a history of religious rituals involving Peyote.


Did you miss the entire response above? I like the fact you read up though. If you didn't understand it I will explain it again. The explanations do not end with chemicals. If chemicals are used it still does not explain the results or the question why is it that this universe has brought about creatures who dictate irrefutable truths when exposed to certain elements.

Also... Now that you have responded. It took me a great deal of effort to get even the vaguest idea of what exactly you believe in. I mean...what you don't believe in is apparent and clearly stated but what you do believe in is a mystery. After shuffling through months of posts one can only conclude that you have a vague connection with magic arts and even that is not certain. The reason I'm bringing it up is this....In your mind you probably think you are for magic or whatever but in practice you seem to me to be only an anti CHRIST. I really don't mean this as a insult I just don't know how else to put it. You might think to yourself that you are for something but I raise the question "WHAT?". You seem to me to only chime in on the Christian discussions. I don't hear you say anything about magic or anything else. You are only against things. You are not for anything. Maybe I'm wrong but your posts support my observation.

Even in this...... "I AM IN NO WAY ENCOURAGING YOU TO DO THIS BUT IF I MIGHT G I'VE AN OBSERVATION."

If you are into magic or divination then you would not argue against the existence of angels, gods or any of the like. If you truly practiced divination the existence of these beings would be automatic to you. The fact that you deny the existence of these beings shows me either you do not practice magic or you are straight up lying on these forums.

Either way....my dear..... like it or not you are on my side.

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truth's last stand
QUOTE(verax-acis @ Jul 30 2006, 11:01 PM) [snapback]1288981[/snapback]

Did you miss the entire response above? I like the fact you read up though. If you didn't understand it I will explain it again. The explanations do not end with chemicals. If chemicals are used it still does not explain the results or the question why is it that this universe has brought about creatures who dictate irrefutable truths when exposed to certain elements.

Also... Now that you have responded. It took me a great deal of effort to get even the vaguest idea of what exactly you believe in. I mean...what you don't believe in is apparent and clearly stated but what you do believe in is a mystery. After shuffling through months of posts one can only conclude that you have a vague connection with magic arts and even that is not certain. The reason I'm bringing it up is this....In your mind you probably think you are for magic or whatever but in practice you seem to me to be only an anti CHRIST. I really don't mean this as a insult I just don't know how else to put it. You might think to yourself that you are for something but I raise the question "WHAT?". You seem to me to only chime in on the Christian discussions. I don't hear you say anything about magic or anything else. You are only against things. You are not for anything. Maybe I'm wrong but your posts support my observation.

Even in this...... "I AM IN NO WAY ENCOURAGING YOU TO DO THIS BUT IF I MIGHT G I'VE AN OBSERVATION."

If you are into magic or divination then you would not argue against the existence of angels, gods or any of the like. If you truly practiced divination the existence of these beings would be automatic to you. The fact that you deny the existence of these beings shows me either you do not practice magic or you are straight up lying on these forums.

Either way....my dear..... like it or not you are on my side.

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There is a common political technique, often used by Republicans. It is called "building a strawman." It is building up an argument that no one has actually come up with, then "knocking it down" and saying "aha! look at my brilliance." You say, based on pure conjecture, that he is associated with magic, though he hasn't said so, by your own admission. Then you knock that argument down by calling him a liar. Or someone who doesn't practice magic. Though two things come to mind: 1) you can't seem to prove he is a magician, or associated with any sort of magic, magick, or whatever you're inferring, and 2) you got these conjectures based on a rather creepy reading of all this guy's postings.

Word to the wise- you won't win souls to the Kingdom by calling people "antichrists." I know your type, and it's those who, as a book I read says, "heap judgments, and dispence mercy with a thimble." Rule number one for religious, or any, dialogue: don't tell the other person they're wrong. That's what five year olds arguing over swingsets say. If you think that is all there is to witnessing, you're in the wrong place. It has nothing to do with it, but love does. And loving "your neighbor as yourself" doesn't include belittling people because they may not agree with you. That gives the majority of Christians a bad name.

And the Oracle really did huff vapors. And possibly ingested the freaky fungus, I think.
verax-acis
QUOTE(truth's last stand @ Jul 31 2006, 04:45 AM) [snapback]1289010[/snapback]

There is a common political technique, often used by Republicans. It is called "building a strawman." It is building up an argument that no one has actually come up with, then "knocking it down" and saying "aha! look at my brilliance." You say, based on pure conjecture, that he is associated with magic, though he hasn't said so, by your own admission. Then you knock that argument down by calling him a liar. Or someone who doesn't practice magic. Though two things come to mind: 1) you can't seem to prove he is a magician, or associated with any sort of magic, magick, or whatever you're inferring, and 2) you got these conjectures based on a rather creepy reading of all this guy's postings.

Word to the wise- you won't win souls to the Kingdom by calling people "antichrists." I know your type, and it's those who, as a book I read says, "heap judgments, and dispence mercy with a thimble." Rule number one for religious, or any, dialogue: don't tell the other person they're wrong. That's what five year olds arguing over swingsets say. If you think that is all there is to witnessing, you're in the wrong place. It has nothing to do with it, but love does. And loving "your neighbor as yourself" doesn't include belittling people because they may not agree with you. That gives the majority of Christians a bad name.

And the Oracle really did huff vapors. And possibly ingested the freaky fungus, I think.



Number one...not to sound too insulting but SHE CAN STAND UP FOR HERSELF. In fact ....her ability to take up for herself has far excelled anyone else that I have met on these forums. And I frequent many of them.....As far as your inquiry about wining souls to the kingdom....If I patronize anyone on this site they see through it immediatly. The only way for me to show a true witness is to engage them in a truthful manner void of posturing.

BUT THANK YOU FOR THE ADVISE ANYWAY.....

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truth's last stand
QUOTE(verax-acis @ Jul 31 2006, 12:06 AM) [snapback]1289022[/snapback]

Number one...not to sound too insulting but SHE CAN STAND UP FOR HERSELF. In fact ....her ability to take up for herself has far excelled anyone else that I have met on these forums. And I frequent many of them.....As far as your inquiry about wining souls to the kingdom....If I patronize anyone on this site they see through it immediatly. The only way for me to show a true witness is to engage them in a truthful manner void of posturing.

BUT THANK YOU FOR THE ADVISE ANYWAY.....

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Not to sound too insulting, but I didn't write that to argue on behalf of someone else, but your tomfoolery reflects poorly on the faithful, and that includes me, by default. I was merely pointing out your follies of logic and formal debate. You were not engaging in a "truthful manner," you were spouting theories and conjecture based on your interpretation of what someone may or may not have said. Be advised that one witnesses more with their acts than their words, and calling someone an antichrist is probably closer to patronizing than you'd like. If asking questions and answering them yourself is not posturing, then please, by all means, tell me what is.
verax-acis
QUOTE(truth's last stand @ Jul 31 2006, 05:13 AM) [snapback]1289027[/snapback]

Not to sound too insulting, but I didn't write that to argue on behalf of someone else, but your tomfoolery reflects poorly on the faithful, and that includes me, by default. I was merely pointing out your follies of logic and formal debate. You were not engaging in a "truthful manner," you were spouting theories and conjecture based on your interpretation of what someone may or may not have said. Be advised that one witnesses more with their acts than their words, and calling someone an antichrist is probably closer to patronizing than you'd like. If asking questions and answering them yourself is not posturing, then please, by all means, tell me what is.



Before you judge me.....see for yourself.

But you're going to fight against me........If you are one of the faithful then you are indeed a rare person on this sight. If then you are one of the faithful then fight with vigor my brother for our fight is a uphill battle. GOD has appointed us for hardship and strife.

IF INDEED YOU ARE MY BROTHER THEN YOUR POSTS WILL EDIFY THEMSELVES.
truth's last stand
QUOTE(verax-acis @ Jul 31 2006, 12:28 AM) [snapback]1289037[/snapback]

Before you judge me.....see for yourself.

But you're going to fight against me........If you are one of the faithful then you are indeed a rare person on this sight. If then you are one of the faithful then fight with vigor my brother for our fight is a uphill battle. GOD has appointed us for hardship and strife.

IF INDEED YOU ARE MY BROTHER THEN YOUR POSTS WILL EDIFY THEMSELVES.


I haven't judged you, save by your words. I detect a condescending attitude that touts superior intelligence. Do not doubt my faith. If you think I know nothing of fighting for the faith, you are truly ignorant. You pass judgment and make more assumptions. I am new to this site and know nothing of the faith demographics, although it hardly matters.

I am not "going to fight" against you. I was merely taking exception to what you said. If disagreement is equal to fighting...I missed that part. Hardship and strife I have become acquainted with in my days. I find that it brings me closer to God, not further. I think it has brought me to the point where I have a distaste for having my faith questioned. Christians can disagree on things, you know. We have approximately five billion denominations to show for that. (My numbers may be a little exaggerated, but not by much.)

mako
As I pointed out, if you accept the Dephi Oracle's prophecy, then you must accept that Jupiter/Jove gave the Oracle the ability to foretell the future.... yes.gif
verax-acis
QUOTE(mako @ Jul 31 2006, 04:20 PM) [snapback]1289481[/snapback]

As I pointed out, if you accept the Dephi Oracle's prophecy, then you must accept that Jupiter/Jove gave the Oracle the ability to foretell the future.... yes.gif


Yes MAKO....you see I am the polar opposite of the minimalist. I do not assume that the religions ,past or present, were/are entirely false. I do not believe people simply made them up. As I stated above I believe the Greek seers of the past were detecting many of the same things the Hebrew seers were.

Did the Greeks identify GOD as Jupiter? I don't know. Do I think the Greeks worshiped angels as gods? Yes.

It is written in the N/T "Do not let the worship of angels disqualify you from the prize." What do you think Paul was referring to?

Also.....as kind of a side note. The bible seems to me to edify the Greek heroes as well. There is a strange verse in Genesis that refers to men called the Nephilim. Sons and daughters of Angels and men. I find it fascinating that Achilles and Hercules might have actually existed.

But your not going to pin me to the Greek myths. Although I hate the fence I feel in this subject I must perch there with indifference to their truths, neither condemning them as false nor upholding them as true.

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Cyclonus J
Verax where in the Bible did Paul say this? Chapter and verse buddy, chapter and verse.
zandore
QUOTE(verax-acis @ Jul 31 2006, 03:37 PM) [snapback]1289690[/snapback]

Also.....as kind of a side note. The bible seems to me to edify the Greek heroes as well. There is a strange verse in Genesis that refers to men called the Nephilim. Sons and daughters of Angels and men. I find it fascinating that Achilles and Hercules might have actually existed.

How well do you know the Bible?


BTW: Look at Genesis 6:1-4
Imaginary Friend
QUOTE(Cyclonus J @ Aug 1 2006, 07:55 AM) [snapback]1289705[/snapback]

Verax where in the Bible did Paul say this? Chapter and verse buddy, chapter and verse.


Colossians 2:18 (King James Version) Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Other angel scripture.
Darkwind
verax-acis, your information is hopelessly out of date. In 2003 Scientific American published an very detailed article on the Delphic Oracle.

QUOTE

July 15, 2003

Questioning the Delphic Oracle

When science meets religion at this ancient Greek site, the two turn out to be on better terms than scholars had originally thought

By John R. Hale, Jelle Zeilinga de Boer, Jeffrey P. Chanton and Henry A. Spiller

The temple of Apollo, cradled in the spectacular mountainscape at Delphi, was the most important religious site of the ancient Greek world, for it housed the powerful oracle. Generals sought the oracle's advice on strategy. Colonists asked for guidance before they set sail for Italy, Spain and Africa. Private citizens inquired about health problems and investments. The oracle's advice figures prominently in the myths. When Orestes asked whether he should seek vengeance on his mother for murdering his father, the oracle encouraged him. Oedipus, warned by the oracle that he would murder his father and marry his mother, strove, with famous lack of success, to avoid his fate.
The oracle of Delphi functioned in a specific place, the adyton, or "no entry" area of the temple's core, and through a specific person, the Pythia, who was chosen to speak, as a possessed medium, for Apollo, the god of prophecy. Extraordinarily for misogynist Greece, the Pythia was a woman. And unlike most Greek priests and priestesses, the Pythia did not inherit her office through noble family connections. Although the Pythia had to be from Delphi, she could be old or young, rich or poor, well educated or illiterate. She went through a long and intense period of conditioning, supported by a sisterhood of Delphic women who tended the eternal sacred fire in the temple.

The Classical Explanation
Tradition attributed the prophetic inspiration of the powerful oracle to geologic phenomena: a chasm in the earth, a vapor that rose from it, and a spring. Roughly a century ago scholars rejected this explanation when archaeologists digging at the site could find no chasm and detect no gases. The ancient testimony, however, is widespread, and it comes from a variety of sources: historians such as Pliny and Diodorus, philosophers such as Plato, the poets Aeschylus and Cicero, the geographer Strabo, the travel writer Pausanias, and even a priest of Apollo who served at Delphi, the famous essayist and biographer Plutarch.



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Extraordinarily for misogynist Greece, the Pythia was a woman. And she did not inherit her office through noble family connections.
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Strabo (64 B.C.-A.D. 25) wrote: "They say that the seat of the oracle is a cavern hollowed deep down in the earth, with a rather narrow mouth, from which rises a pneuma [gas, vapor, breath; hence our words "pneumatic" and "pneumonia"] that produces divine possession. A tripod is set above this cleft, mounting which, the Pythia inhales the vapor and prophesies."

Plutarch (A.D. 46-120) left an extended eyewitness account of the workings of the oracle. He described the relationships among god, woman and gas by likening Apollo to a musician, the woman to his instrument and the pneuma to the plectrum with which he touched her to make her speak. But Plutarch emphasized that the pneuma was only a trigger. It was really the preconditioning and purification (certainly including sexual abstinence, possibly including fasting) of the chosen woman that made her capable of responding to exposure to the pneuma. An ordinary person could detect the smell of the gas without passing into an oracular trance.

Plutarch also recorded a number of physical characteristics about the pneuma. It smelled like sweet perfume. It was emitted "as if from a spring" in the adyton where the Pythia sat, but priests and consultants could on some occasions smell it in the antechamber where they waited for her responses. It could rise either as a free gas or in water. In Plutarch's day the emission had become weak and irregular, the cause, in his opinion, of the weakening influence of the Delphic oracle in world affairs. He suggested that either the vital essence had run out or that heavy rains had diluted it or a great earthquake more than four centuries earlier had partially blocked its vent. Maybe, he continued, the vapor had found a new outlet. Plutarch's theories about the lessening of the emission make it clear that he believed it originated in the rock below the temple.
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A traveler in the next generation, Pausanias, echoes Plutarch's mention of the pneuma rising in water. Pausanias wrote that he saw on the slope above the temple a spring called Kassotis, which he had heard plunged underground and then emerged again in the adyton, where its waters made the women prophetic.

Plutarch and other sources indicate that during normal sessions the woman who served as Pythia was in a mild trance. She was able to sit upright on the tripod and might spend a considerable amount of time there (although when the line of consultants was long, a second and even a third Pythia might have to relieve her). She could hear the questions and gave intelligible answers. During the oracular sessions, the Pythia spoke in an altered voice and tended to chant her responses, indulging in wordplay and puns. Afterward, according to Plutarch, she was like a runner after a race or a dancer after an ecstatic dance.

On one occasion, which either Plutarch himself or one of his colleagues witnessed, temple authorities forced the Pythia to prophesy on an inauspicious day to please the members of an important embassy. She went down to the subterranean adyton unwillingly and at once was seized by a powerful and malignant spirit. In this state of possession, instead of speaking or chanting as she normally did, the Pythia groaned and shrieked, threw herself about violently and eventually rushed at the doors, where she collapsed. The frightened consultants and priests at first ran away, but they later came back and picked her up. She died after a few days.

The New Tradition
Generations of scholars accepted these accounts. Then, in about 1900, a young English classicist named Adolphe Paul Oppé visited excavations being carried out by French archaeologists at Delphi. He failed to see any chasm or to hear reports of any gases, and he published an influential article in which he made three critical claims. First, no chasm or gaseous emission had ever existed in the temple at Delphi. Second, even if it had, no natural gas could produce a state resembling spiritual possession. Third, Plutarch's account of a Pythia who had a violent frenzy and died shortly afterward was inconsistent with the customary description of a Pythia sitting on the tripod and chanting her prophecies. Oppé concluded that all the ancient testimony could be explained away.

Oppé's debunking took the academic world by storm. His opinions were so strongly expressed that his theory became the new orthodoxy. The absence of the wide opening that the French archaeologists had expected seemed to prove his argument. Additional support for Oppé's theory came in 1950, when French archaeologist Pierre Amandry added the further negative that only a volcanic area, which Delphi was not, could have produced a gas such as the one described in the classical sources. The case seemed closed. The original tradition of the Greek and Latin authors lived on only in popular books and in the words of local guides, which, in Oppé's opinion, had been the source of the chasm and vapor myth in the first place.

The situation changed in the 1980s, when a United Nations Development Project undertook a survey in Greece of active faults (those along which earthquakes have been generated in the past few hundred years). As a member of that survey, one of us (de Boer, who is a geologist) noted exposed fault faces both east and west of the sanctuary. He interpreted them as marking the line of a fault that ran along the south slope of Mount Parnassus and under the site of the oracle. But being aware of the classical tradition and unaware of the modern skepticism and debunking, he attributed no special importance to his observation.

More than a decade later de Boer met another of us (Hale) at an archaeological site in Portugal where Hale, who is an archaeologist, sought de Boer's geological opinion on the evidence for earthquake damage at an ancient Roman villa. Over a bottle of wine, de Boer mentioned that he had seen the fault that ran under the temple at Delphi. Hale, who had learned the approved view as an undergraduate, contradicted him. But in the lively conversation that ensued, de Boer converted him with his description of the fault, his account of how faults could bring gases to the surface and his references to the classical authors. Realizing the importance of the observation for the interpretation of the ancient accounts, the two decided to form a team for further exploration of the site.


The Classical Explanation Revisited
During our first field trip, in 1996, the two of us conducted geological surveys and examined the temple foundations that the French archaeologists had exposed. The temple has a number of anomalous features that would call for some special interpretation of its function even if the reports of Plutarch and others had not been preserved. First, the inner sanctum is sunken, lying two to four meters below the level of the surrounding floor. Second, it is asymmetrical: a break in the internal colonnade accommodates some now vanished structure or feature. Third, built directly into the foundations next to the recessed area is an elaborate drain for spring water, along with other subterranean passages. Thus, the temple of Apollo seemed designed to enclose a particular piece of terrain that included a water source, rather than to provide a house for the image of the god, the normal function of a temple building.

During that first exploration, we traced the major east-west fault line, called the Delphi fault, that de Boer had observed during the earlier survey. Later we were to discover the exposed face of a second fault in a ravine above the temple. This second line, which we named the Kerna fault, ran northwest-southeast and cut across the Delphi fault at the oracle site. A line of springs that ran through the sanctuary and intersected the temple marked the location of the Kerna fault below the ancient terracing and the accumulated debris from rockslides.

That same year a father-and-son archaeological and geological team, Michael D. Higgins and Reynold Higgins, published a book that suggested we were on the right track. In their Geological Companion to Greece and the Aegean, they noted that the line of springs did indeed suggest the presence of a "steep fault" running northwest-southeast through the sanctuary. They also pointed out that no geological reason necessitates rejecting the ancient tradition.

Higgins and Higgins theorized that the gas emitted might have been carbon dioxide. A decade earlier a different scientific team had detected such an emission at another temple of Apollo, the one at Hierapolis (modern Pamukkale) in Asia Minor (now Turkey, and home to the ruins of many great Greek cities). Following the lead of Strabo, modern researchers have discovered that the Apollo temple at Hierapolis had been deliberately sited over a vent of toxic gases, which in the finished temple emerged from a grotto in the building's foundations.

The temple at Hierapolis was not a place of prophecy, and the carbon dioxide was not so much intoxicating as toxic, claiming the lives of sacrificial animals, from sparrows to bulls. Even today the gas, which is emitted irregularly, kills sparrows that perch on the wire fence intended to keep people out. Other temples of Apollo in Turkey, however, were oracular, and they were built over active springs, such as those at Didyma and Claros. A link clearly seemed to be emerging between temples of Apollo and sites of geologic activity.

The Perfect Gas
Although the newly discovered faults at Delphi indicated that gases and spring water could have reached the surface through cracks that the faults created in the ground below the temple, they did not explain the generation of the gases themselves. De Boer, however, had observed travertine deposits, flows of calcite laid down by spring water, coating the slopes above the temple and even an ancient retaining wall. These flows suggested to him that the water had risen through deep layers of limestone to the surface, where it had deposited calcite mineralizations (a phenomenon also seen at Hierapolis in Turkey). A search through Greek geologic studies of Mount Parnassus revealed that among the Cretaceous rock formations in the vicinity of the temple were layers of bituminous limestone that had a petrochemical content as high as 20 percent.



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A link clearly seemed to be emerging between temples of Apollo and sites of geologic activity.
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De Boer now began to see a system taking shape. Faults, which were well exposed on the uplifted slopes of Mount Parnassus, had cut through bituminous limestone. Movement along the faults created friction that heated the limestone to a point at which the petrochemicals vaporized. They then rose along the fault with the spring water, especially at points where the presence of cross-faulting made the rock more permeable. Over time, gas emissions would decrease as calcitic crusts clogged the spaces inside the fault, only to be restored with the next tectonic slip.

De Boer's reasoning seemed in accord with the findings of the early 20th-century French archaeologists, who had finally reached bedrock under the adyton a few years after the publication of Oppé's article. Beneath a stratum of brown clay, they encountered rock that was "fissured by the action of the waters." We believe that faulting and fracturing rather than water may have created these fissures, although groundwater may have widened them over time; in early attempts to reach bedrock, the French archaeologists noted that the holes kept filling up with water. We also believe that the visible chasm in the adyton may have been a gaping fissure that extended into the layer of clay above the faulted bedrock.

As careful geologic research and reasoning solved riddle after riddle, we were still left with the question of what gases might have emerged. De Boer learned that geologists working in the Gulf of Mexico had analyzed gases that bubbled up along submerged faults. They had found that active faults in this area of bituminous limestone were producing light hydrocarbon gases such as methane and ethane. Could the same have been true at Delphi?

To find out, we asked for permission to take samples of spring water from Delphi, along with samples of the travertine rock laid down by ancient springs. We hoped to discover in this porous rock traces of the gases that were brought to the surface in earlier times. At this point, Chanton, who is a chemist, joined the team. In the travertine samples collected by de Boer and Hale, he found methane and ethane, the latter a decomposition product of ethylene. Chanton then visited Greece to collect water samples from springs in and around the oracle site. Analysis of the water from the Kerna spring in the sanctuary itself revealed the presence of methane, ethane and ethylene. Because ethylene has a sweet odor, the presence of this gas seemed to lend support to Plutarch's description of a gas that smelled like expensive perfume.

To help interpret the possible effects of such gases on human subjects in a confined space, one like the adyton, Spiller, a toxicologist, became a member of the project. His work with "huffers"--teenage drug users who get high on the fumes from substances such as glue and paint thinner, most of which contain light hydrocarbon gases--had shown a number of parallels with the behavior reported for the trance state of the Pythia.

Spiller uncovered even more parallels in the reports of experiments on the anesthetic properties of ethylene carried out more than half a century ago by pioneering American anesthesiologist Isabella Herb. She had found that a 20 percent mixture of ethylene produced unconsciousness but that lower concentrations induced a trance state. In most cases, the trance was benign: the patient remained conscious, was able to sit up and to respond to questions, experienced out-of-body feelings and euphoria, and had amnesia after being taken off the gas. But occasionally Herb would see violent reactions, the patient uttering wild, incoherent cries and thrashing about. Had a patient vomited during such a frenzy and ingested some of the vomit into the lungs, pneumonia and death would inevitably have followed. Thus, according to Spiller's analysis, inhaling ethylene could account for all the various descriptions of the pneuma at Delphi--its sweet odor and its variable effects on human subjects, including even the potential for death.


An Unexpected Inspiration
Two thousand years ago Plutarch was interested in reconciling religion and science. As priest of Apollo, he had to respond to religious conservatives who objected to the notion that a god might use a fluctuating natural gas to perform a miracle. Why not enter the woman's body directly? Plutarch believed that the gods had to rely on the materials of this corrupt and transitory world to accomplish their works. God though he was, Apollo had to speak his prophecies through the voices of mortals, and he had to inspire them with stimuli that were part of the natural world. Plutarch's careful observations and reporting of data about the gaseous emissions at Delphi show that the ancients did not try to exclude scientific inquiry from religious understanding.

The primary lesson we took away from our Delphic oracle project is not the well-worn message that modern science can elucidate ancient curiosities. Perhaps more important is how much we have to gain if we approach problems with the same broad-minded and interdisciplinary attitude that the Greeks themselves displayed.

LINK


QUOTE
Apparently even the god Apollo does what JESUS says.


My Gods and Goddesses are laughing. laugh.gif They take orders from no one.
verax-acis
QUOTE(Darkwind @ Jul 31 2006, 10:34 PM) [snapback]1289886[/snapback]

verax-acis, your information is hopelessly out of date. In 2003 Scientific American published an very detailed article on the Delphic Oracle.
My Gods and Goddesses are laughing. laugh.gif They take orders from no one.



I’m not sure whether you didn’t understand my posts or you simply just replied without reading them.

Look again….I’m the one edifying the Oracle, not minimalizing it. Nothing you quoted contradicted me. Except of course the words of the Oracle itself. I will post it again.

But these wonder-days declined and with them the flow of Apollo's inspiration. His oracles functioned less often and finally, by the 4th century A.D., when the Roman emperor Theodosius ordered all oracles closed and forbade divination, the god had already withdrawn. When the emperor Julian asked how he could help restore the Pythia to power, Apollo replied: "Tell the emperor that my hall has fallen to the ground. Phoibos [Apollo] no longer has his house . . . nor his prophetic spring; the water has dried up" (Fontenrose, p. 353). Earlier, when Emperor Augustus had asked: "Why is the Oracle silent?" he was told: "A Hebrew boy, a god who rules among the blessed bids me leave this house . . . So go in silence from my altars" (op. cit., p. 349).
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