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Malruhn
This link is a good start on legitimate scientists coming out and agreeing that the conspiracy theories are whacked. Okay, it was on O'Reilly, but at least people are coming out and addressing the misinformation.
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Snippet:

O'REILLY: The World Trade Center towers fell too quickly. That's the big one. And you say what?

MEIGS (Editor in Chief for Popular Mechanics magazine): Well, they didn't. I mean, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in these conspiracy theories is kind of a cartoon version, how we think things ought to have happened.

Well, no one had ever seen 100-plus story building collapse to the ground before. And so the idea that it was going to tip over like a big tree or something was based on just a hunch, as opposed to science.

What we found is this is the most closely studied collapse of any kind in world history. You know, thousands of engineers. And witnesses have been interviewed. Engineers have studied it. And the engineering community's unanimous that a combination of devastating impact from the jets — it severed building members — and then the effects of fires over multiple floors gradually weakened what remained until it began to sag and ultimately collapse.
truth's last stand
QUOTE(Malruhn @ Aug 8 2006, 10:07 PM) [snapback]1300520[/snapback]

This link is a good start on legitimate scientists coming out and agreeing that the conspiracy theories are whacked. Okay, it was on O'Reilly, but at least people are coming out and addressing the misinformation.
____________________________________________________

Snippet:

O'REILLY: The World Trade Center towers fell too quickly. That's the big one. And you say what?

MEIGS (Editor in Chief for Popular Mechanics magazine): Well, they didn't. I mean, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in these conspiracy theories is kind of a cartoon version, how we think things ought to have happened.

Well, no one had ever seen 100-plus story building collapse to the ground before. And so the idea that it was going to tip over like a big tree or something was based on just a hunch, as opposed to science.

What we found is this is the most closely studied collapse of any kind in world history. You know, thousands of engineers. And witnesses have been interviewed. Engineers have studied it. And the engineering community's unanimous that a combination of devastating impact from the jets — it severed building members — and then the effects of fires over multiple floors gradually weakened what remained until it began to sag and ultimately collapse.


Popular Science is part of the NWO. tongue.gif
TruthBearer
QUOTE(truth's last stand @ Aug 9 2006, 05:04 AM) [snapback]1300798[/snapback]

Popular Science is part of the NWO. tongue.gif


Indeed they are. Notice how he makes absolutely no mention of building 7 which was not hit by a plane and was barely if at all on fire yet it somehow collapsed at free fall speeds in demolition style fashion.

A man by the name of Galileo proves this man wrong and he was a scientific genius. If an object is not obstructed by anything else between it's fall towards the Earth(other than the atmosphere) then it will fall at the speed of gravity. The fashion in which the towers fell defies physics if it is assumed that they fell in a pancake like manner(meaning floors were hitting other floors until total collapse). They fell at the EXACT same speed that an object would fall if it were thrown out of the window. What this means is that every floor HAD TO HAVE been destroyed by explosives virtually simultaneously, making sure that every floor fell under it's own gravity.
Shigeru
QUOTE(TruthBearer @ Aug 9 2006, 07:11 PM) [snapback]1301569[/snapback]

Indeed they are. Notice how he makes absolutely no mention of building 7 which was not hit by a plane and was barely if at all on fire yet it somehow collapsed at free fall speeds in demolition style fashion.


I thought it was odd that the article they did not mention the footage of the WTC owner (I forget his name...d'oh!) was on PBS as saying he "gave the OK to 'pull' the building (building 7)". Its PBS footage of the guy saying it was reccomended to him that they (fire chief & department) pull the building.

The claimed it collapsed, which is bull.
Pagan_2k
QUOTE

MEIGS (Editor in Chief for Popular Mechanics magazine): Well, they didn't. I mean, you know, one of the things that comes up a lot in these conspiracy theories is kind of a cartoon version, how we think things ought to have happened.

Well, no one had ever seen 100-plus story building collapse to the ground before. And so the idea that it was going to tip over like a big tree or something was based on just a hunch, as opposed to science.


So. We have a building that collapses from the bottom after being hit at the top by a plane.
the other building collapses too and we're the ones living in the cartoon version?

Whew, good thing this is cleared up. Yay! for propaganda.
Dowdy
It didn't collapse from the bottom. All the video footage show the top sections collapsing which caused a chain reation to the rest of the tower.

But i still have doubts on building 7
TK0001
QUOTE(TruthBearer @ Aug 9 2006, 07:11 PM) [snapback]1301569[/snapback]

Indeed they are. Notice how he makes absolutely no mention of building 7 which was not hit by a plane and was barely if at all on fire yet it somehow collapsed at free fall speeds in demolition style fashion.


The fact that you think it was barely on fire proves how little you've actually researched this.

Look for photos and videos taken from the south side of WTC7 - you know, the side that NO CTer wants to show, because it clearly illustrates the extensive damage to that side. Smoke was billowing from virtually every window on that side.
TruthBearer
QUOTE(TK0001 @ Aug 10 2006, 11:55 AM) [snapback]1302387[/snapback]

The fact that you think it was barely on fire proves how little you've actually researched this.

Look for photos and videos taken from the south side of WTC7 - you know, the side that NO CTer wants to show, because it clearly illustrates the extensive damage to that side. Smoke was billowing from virtually every window on that side.


The fact that you think a steel skyscraper can even collapse(in free fall fashion no elss) due to fire damage proves how little you've researched physics(see the Madrid building). It was barely on fire and the same goes for both the north and south towers. All of these buildings were hardly on fire and all three of these buildings were brought down with explosives BEYOND ALL DOUBT.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html - contains picture of building 7 at approximately 3pm on the fated afternoon with a mere two floors partially on fire

http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/mad...ing_inferno.htm - Madrid building that burned with a raging inferno for approx. 24 hours and DID NOT COLLAPSE

QUOTE
A 32-story building burns for more than 24 hours and does not collapse. It does not collapse because buildings made of steel and concrete, despite what we are led to believe, do not typically fall to the ground because of fire, even a protracted fire as witnessed in Madrid. In fact before September 11th, 2001, no building had ever collapsed as a result of fire alone. In past events, high-rise buildings burned for as long as six days before the fires were extinguished and yet remained standing.



Get a clue TK
TK0001
QUOTE(TruthBearer @ Aug 10 2006, 06:02 PM) [snapback]1302830[/snapback]

The fact that you think a steel skyscraper can even collapse(in free fall fashion no elss) due to fire damage proves how little you've researched physics(see the Madrid building). It was barely on fire and the same goes for both the north and south towers. All of these buildings were hardly on fire and all three of these buildings were brought down with explosives BEYOND ALL DOUBT.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html - contains picture of building 7 at approximately 3pm on the fated afternoon with a mere two floors partially on fire

http://www.infowars.com/articles/world/mad...ing_inferno.htm - Madrid building that burned with a raging inferno for approx. 24 hours and DID NOT COLLAPSE
Get a clue TK


Save your BEYOND ALL DOUBT rhetoric until you've officially closed the case. rolleyes.gif

The steel structure in the Windsor Building (Madrid) indeed collapsed. The concrete structure did not. It also didn't sustain a 20 storey hole in it's side. The WTC buildings were of steel contruction.

The following is taken from The Truth about the 9/11 'Truth Movement', by Mark Roberts:

Here's what Arup, a major fire safety engineering firm, had to say about that fire (emphasis mine):

"The fire led to the collapse of virtually all the slab edge bay above 17th floor as well as
one internal bay on the north side. The transition floor resisted the impact of the partial
collapses. Below this level there was substantial structural damage and deformation, but
no significant collapse.

The steel perimeter columns, even if they had been protected, or even concrete
columns, would not necessarily be expected to survive the effects of such a 10-
storey blaze.


The central concrete core appeared to perform well in the fire and on initial
observations seems to have played a major role in ensuring the stability of the
building throughout the incident. The role of cores in multiple floor fires is now an
immediate area of study required for the industry, and Arup have commenced
investigating this issue
."




Clue received.
Malruhn
Hey, TruthBearer, the link you provided with the photo showing WT7 "barely" on fire shows a large building that has quite an active internal fire going on. We don't know how involved it was on the inside - just where the fire is visible through the windows.

There is also a video on the bottom of the page that has a wmv file of what is supposed to be a NYC fire fighter that discusses jumping a bus and going to ground zero, "bagging" a transit cop and sifting through rubble. Obviously this is POST collapse - and nobody knows where the body came from. He may have been there when the towers collapsed and was killed by a falling chunk of something -or he may have had his liver removed by aliens - we will never know. HOWEVER, there is no date/time stamp on the video, and no name of the man speaking, so we don't even know if he is speaking any truth or lies.

With the amount of damage to surrounding buildings, how can you say that WTC-7 fell from fire alone? The collapses threw large chunks of concrete, glass and metal into surrounding buildings... are you saying that WTC-7 had no structural damage from falling debris?

And regarding that "smoking gun" of saying "pull it"... it is common firefighter lingo to say that when the decision is made to get firefighters out of a burning building. Are you going to jump up and down when you find that many firefighters are told to "hit it" when making initial entry to fight a fire?? OMFGWTFBBQ!!!! They are doing assassinations!! laugh.gif

You guys crack me up!
Mr Slayer
You can't be serious, trusting popular science.
Malruhn
No, instead I will put my faith in people with no education or experience in fire fighting techniques, structural engineering, and in many cases seemingly no common sense. These are the same people that try to tell me that there is a large contingent of square and compasses bearing, human skin wearing reptillians that rule the world that originally came from outer space.

Is that better?
TK0001
QUOTE(AshKatNah @ Aug 11 2006, 10:09 AM) [snapback]1303505[/snapback]

You can't be serious, trusting popular science.


Why not trust Popular Science? Have they been known to print untruthful articles in the past?
TruthBearer
QUOTE
The steel structure in the Windsor Building (Madrid) indeed collapsed. The concrete structure did not. It also didn't sustain a 20 storey hole in it's side. The WTC buildings were of steel contruction.


NEITHER DID BUILDING 7, HI, GET ANOTHER CLUE


QUOTE
Why not trust Popular Science? Have they been known to print untruthful articles in the past?


They are biased and are controlled by the people who perpetrated 9/11, just like Popular Mechanics.


QUOTE
No, instead I will put my faith in people with no education or experience in fire fighting techniques, structural engineering, and in many cases seemingly no common sense. These are the same people that try to tell me that there is a large contingent of square and compasses bearing, human skin wearing reptillians that rule the world that originally came from outer space.

Is that better?


You mean like the 9/11 Commission and the Popular Science/Mechanics?

QUOTE
With the amount of damage to surrounding buildings, how can you say that WTC-7 fell from fire alone? The collapses threw large chunks of concrete, glass and metal into surrounding buildings... are you saying that WTC-7 had no structural damage from falling debris?


Building 7 was brought down with explosives, I don't get where you got the idea I thought it was brought down by fire. If you honestly think a steel skyscraper will collapse into its own footprint in a free fall collapse from "falling debris" then for you to say this line,"instead I will put my faith in people with no education or experience in fire fighting techniques, structural engineering, and in many cases seemingly no common sense." has GOT TO BE the ultimate irony.

QUOTE
These are the same people that try to tell me that there is a large contingent of square and compasses bearing, human skin wearing reptillians that rule the world that originally came from outer space.


I don't ever remember saying this but way to take ONE MAN's theories(David Ickes') and associate them with everyone else. If that isn't ignorance then I don't know what is.





TK0001
QUOTE(TruthBearer @ Aug 11 2006, 03:56 PM) [snapback]1303928[/snapback]

NEITHER DID BUILDING 7, HI, GET ANOTHER CLUE
They are biased and are controlled by the people who perpetrated 9/11, just like Popular Mechanics.
You mean like the 9/11 Commission and the Popular Science/Mechanics?
Building 7 was brought down with explosives, I don't get where you got the idea I thought it was brought down by fire. If you honestly think a steel skyscraper will collapse into its own footprint in a free fall collapse from "falling debris" then for you to say this line,"instead I will put my faith in people with no education or experience in fire fighting techniques, structural engineering, and in many cases seemingly no common sense." has GOT TO BE the ultimate irony.
I don't ever remember saying this but way to take ONE MAN's theories(David Ickes') and associate them with everyone else. If that isn't ignorance then I don't know what is.


Just to be straight, you're saying that WTC7 did NOT have a huge (20 storey) hole in its south side and you're saying it sustained minimal damage? Did I get that right? All that giant text is so confusing.

Well then, you just called the NY Fire Chief, Daniel Nigro, a liar:

QUOTE
"The biggest decision we had to make was to clear the area and create a collapse zone around the severely damaged [WTC 7] building. A number of fire officers and companies assessed the damage to the building. The appraisals indicated that the building’s integrity was in serious doubt.” [Fire Engineering, 10/2002]


This firefighter is also a liar, according to your completely unsupported theory:

QUOTE
"Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7?
Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn’t know exactly what it was, but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site.
Firehouse: How many companies?
Boyle: There were four engines and at least three trucks. So we’re heading east on Vesey, we couldn’t see much past Broadway. We couldn’t see Church Street. We couldn’t see what was down there. It was really smoky and dusty."

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good. But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see. So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down."


Remember these guys had just gone through having several of their comrades die in the towers, and they were actually willing to go into a building that they knew was going to collapse hours later. And here you are, claiming they're making up these stories. Maybe you don't understand the gravity of the words you say, but to sit back and take the words of conspiracy nutcases over the words of the actual heroes that were there that day is downright despicable.

And I have more quotes from firefighters that saw the extensive damage on the south side of WTC7, if you want to see them. What do you have? Absolutely nothing.
TruthBearer
I know firefighters that died on 9/11 and I know firefighters that survived and they say those guys are liars and heard explosives(several bombs) going off in and around the buildings. One of them also happens to be into construction and also happens to have a relative who works with demolitions who happens to know for a fact that all of the WTC buildings were brought down with the use of demolitions.

Also, why doesn't a single shot of WTC-7 show a hole of ANY KIND WHATSOEVER, infact all actual footage of the building PROVES my "unsupported theory" because I'm pretty sure I'd recall having seen that. Also, why was the collapse of building 7 only shown on air ONCE meanwhile the North and South towers shown hundreds of times. I'll tell you why. Because they figured they could use the "well a plane hit those buildings!" excuse.

Also, why only building 7? There are a whole bunch of buildings right next to the North and South towers and infact one standing RIGHT NEXT TO IT sufferred LESS damage(almost none whatsoever except for falling debris but HEY IT's STILL STANDING) than building 7 which was FURTHER AWAY.



TK0001
QUOTE(TruthBearer @ Aug 11 2006, 05:55 PM) [snapback]1304118[/snapback]

I know firefighters that died on 9/11 and I know firefighters that survived and they say those guys are liars and heard explosives(several bombs) going off in and around the buildings. One of them also happens to be into construction and also happens to have a relative who works with demolitions who happens to know for a fact that all of the WTC buildings were brought down with the use of demolitions.

Also, why doesn't a single shot of WTC-7 show a hole of ANY KIND WHATSOEVER, infact all actual footage of the building PROVES my "unsupported theory" because I'm pretty sure I'd recall having seen that. Also, why was the collapse of building 7 only shown on air ONCE meanwhile the North and South towers shown hundreds of times. I'll tell you why. Because they figured they could use the "well a plane hit those buildings!" excuse.

Also, why only building 7? There are a whole bunch of buildings right next to the North and South towers and infact one standing RIGHT NEXT TO IT sufferred LESS damage(almost none whatsoever except for falling debris but HEY IT's STILL STANDING) than building 7 which was FURTHER AWAY.



1. If you're going to call the FDNY chief a liar, you're going to need more than just a guy that knows a guy that knows a guy said blah blah blah. This is a serious allegation, one that should be backed up with actual quotes from actual credible sources. So give me something, anything, from a credible source that supports this ludicrous claim.

Also, tell me how a firefighter in one of the towers (we weren't talking about the towers, by the way - we were talking about WTC7, and I haven't seen any reports from firefighters saying there were explosions in that building before it came down, but what the hell, I'll play along) can possibly tell the difference between a bomb going off and an electrical explosion. Of course people will describe explosion sounds as "like a bomb going off", but did anyone actually see a bomb? Of course there will be all sorts of explosions, you'd expect otherwise? What do you think it should've sounded like?

2. The reason you haven't seen any photos showing the south side of WTC7 is because you only subscribe to sites that show you the other, seemingly pristine, side. The fact that you say:

QUOTE
Also, why doesn't a single shot of WTC-7 show a hole of ANY KIND WHATSOEVER


proves to me you're not a bearer of truth at all. You've selectively remained ignorant of any facts that don't support your theory, which is no small feat because there is reams of evidence against it.

Here's one shot, easily attainable, that one could find within 10 minutes on google:

http://911myths.com/wtc7moresmoke.avi

Please watch that and tell me what you think. Does it look like it was barely on fire to you anymore?

3. Obviously you haven't seen aerial footage of the debris field, either. There were 16 acres of wreckage strewn all over the place. Many surrounding buildings were significantly damaged. I'll let you look that one up yourself, though, since it's a waste of my time.
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